np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 8 - Mr. Roboto (SEE POST #240)

[W_M]

What is the best counter of Gene? Heatran?. Ok. So if Genesect is used a lot, Heatran should be used a lot too... or maybe not, because Dugtrio is used a lot too. Ok. Statistics:

Hide

July
| 5 | Heatran | 51741 | 15.468% | 31570 | 15.782% |
| 51 | Dugtrio | 11841 | 3.540% | 7244 | 3.621% |

August (WAS BORN GENESECT)
| 5 | Heatran | 88648 | 16.479% | 73138 | 16.790% |
| 14 | Genesect | 56245 | 10.455% | 49204 | 11.295% |
| 44 | Dugtrio | 28392 | 5.278% | 22640 | 5.197% |


September
| 3 | Genesect | 109264 | 17.628% | 95560 | 19.010% |
| 6 | Heatran | 97259 | 15.691% | 80073 | 15.929% |-->Shed Shell 1.783%
| 40 | Dugtrio | 35917 | 5.795% | 28480 | 5.666% |

October
| 1 | Genesect | 145258 | 18.759% | 126041 | 20.139% |
| 6 | Heatran | 113887 | 14.707% | 94566 | 15.110% |-->Shed Shell 1.855%
| 47 | Dugtrio | 37455 | 4.837% | 29539 | 4.720% |

Genesect has increased its use, but Heatran and Dugtrio keep a similar use in July, August, September and October. I began to see Hippowdown on last suspect, but I think it was because Terrakion and Garchomp were top-5.

 

[GaryTheGengar]

Excuse me if I was an asshole (unless you deserved it), I was getting haxed very heavily and was getting frustrated. Started losing more often at the end and am glad to be done, but it was a fun test. I didn't really see too many well played genesect, but a well played rock polish genesect is probably the most dangerous poke in the meta. My team was pretty prepared for it, but still managed to get swept by it once, although I did misplay. This portion didn't really influence me so much regarding genesect, so I'm still leaning on the side of a ban, as its an over-centralizing poke when used incorrectly, and an absolutely deadly sweeper when used properly.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

What is the best counter of Gene? Heatran?. Ok. So if Genesect is used a lot, Heatran should be used a lot too... or maybe not, because Dugtrio is used a lot too. Ok. Statistics:

Hide

July
| 5 | Heatran | 51741 | 15.468% | 31570 | 15.782% |
| 51 | Dugtrio | 11841 | 3.540% | 7244 | 3.621% |

August (WAS BORN GENESECT)
| 5 | Heatran | 88648 | 16.479% | 73138 | 16.790% |
| 14 | Genesect | 56245 | 10.455% | 49204 | 11.295% |
| 44 | Dugtrio | 28392 | 5.278% | 22640 | 5.197% |


September
| 3 | Genesect | 109264 | 17.628% | 95560 | 19.010% |
| 6 | Heatran | 97259 | 15.691% | 80073 | 15.929% |-->Shed Shell 1.783%
| 40 | Dugtrio | 35917 | 5.795% | 28480 | 5.666% |

October
| 1 | Genesect | 145258 | 18.759% | 126041 | 20.139% |
| 6 | Heatran | 113887 | 14.707% | 94566 | 15.110% |-->Shed Shell 1.855%
| 47 | Dugtrio | 37455 | 4.837% | 29539 | 4.720% |

Genesect has increased its use, but Heatran and Dugtrio keep a similar use in July, August, September and October. I began to see Hippowdown on last suspect, but I think it was because Terrakion and Garchomp were top-5.

On the OU suspect, Dugtrio is at 23 usage:

| 23 | Dugtrio | 2152 | 9.528% | 1788 | 9.180% |

And Shed Shell is used by almost 7% of Heatran. While it isn't nearly all of them, it is much more used than on OU non-suspect.

| Shed Shell 9.373% |

(if you don't believe on me go check on this thread)

Dugtrio's usage on september:
| 22 | Dugtrio | 1912 | 8.786% | 1560 | 8.393% |

Dugtrio's usage on august:
| 32 | Dugtrio | 466 | 6.320% | 387 | 6.194% |

Heatran's usage on august:
| 3 | Heatran | 1481 | 20.084% | 1296 | 20.742% |

on september:
| 6 | Heatran | 3846 | 17.673% | 3348 | 18.012% |

on october:
| 20 | Heatran | 2550 | 11.290% | 2242 | 11.510% |

I provided stats for OU suspect because it tends to reflect how the metagame really is, as for example, on normal OU, Keldeo sees low usage, when it is really such a threatening force.

It's just a coincidence that Dugtrio's usage increased just one month after Genesect's introduction? (according to the statistics) and that just one month after Dugtrio's usage augmented, Heatran's usage greatly diminished?

 

[W_M]

On the OU suspect, Dugtrio is at 23 usage:

| 23 | Dugtrio | 2152 | 9.528% | 1788 | 9.180% |

And Shed Shell is used by almost 7% of Heatran. While it isn't nearly all of them, it is much more used than on OU non-suspect.

| Shed Shell 9.373% |

(if you don't believe on me go check on this thread)

Dugtrio's usage on september:
| 22 | Dugtrio | 1912 | 8.786% | 1560 | 8.393% |

Dugtrio's usage on august:
| 32 | Dugtrio | 466 | 6.320% | 387 | 6.194% |

Heatran's usage on august:
| 3 | Heatran | 1481 | 20.084% | 1296 | 20.742% |

on september:
| 6 | Heatran | 3846 | 17.673% | 3348 | 18.012% |

on october:
| 20 | Heatran | 2550 | 11.290% | 2242 | 11.510% |

I provided stats for OU suspect because it tends to reflect how the metagame really is, as for example, on normal OU, Keldeo sees low usage, when it is really such a threatening force.

It's just a coincidence that Dugtrio's usage increased just one month after Genesect's introduction? (according to the statistics) and that just one month after Dugtrio's usage augmented, Heatran's usage greatly diminished?

Ok. We are going to use the suspect's statistics.

Teammates Genesect:

Hide

| Teammates |
| Keldeo 33.117% |
| Terrakion 32.898% |
| Politoed 29.360% |
| Garchomp 26.653% |
| Latios 23.246% |
| Breloom 22.677% |
| Landorus 20.855% |
| Tornadus-Therian 19.147% |
| Kyurem-Black 18.350% |
| Rotom-Wash 17.535% |
| Deoxys-Defense 17.325% |
| Ferrothorn 16.186% |

However...

Teammates Politoed:

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| Teammates |
| Genesect 52.896% |
| Tornadus-Therian 52.028% |
| Keldeo 42.449% |
| Ferrothorn 41.329% |
| Terrakion 27.710% |
| Tentacruel 26.053% |
| Thundurus-Therian 23.797% |
| Dugtrio 21.682% |
| Jirachi 20.609% |
| Latios 20.530% |
| Garchomp 16.001% |
| Scizor 13.824% |

Teammates Ferrothorn:

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| Teammates |
| Politoed 69.030% |
| Genesect 48.708% |
| Tornadus-Therian 43.490% |
| Tentacruel 31.128% |
| Keldeo 29.942% |
| Terrakion 21.771% |
| Dugtrio 19.267% |
| Thundurus-Therian 18.424% |
| Starmie 18.239% |
| Garchomp 13.152% |
| Kyurem-Black 11.149% |
| Jirachi 10.596% |

Teammates Tornadus-t:

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| Teammates |
| Politoed 92.095% |
| Genesect 61.061% |
| Ferrothorn 46.089% |
| Keldeo 39.246% |
| Dugtrio 35.028% |
| Tentacruel 30.670% |
| Latios 22.626% |
| Terrakion 17.207% |
| Jirachi 16.676% |
| Thundurus-Therian 15.028% |
| Breloom 10.810% |
| Garchomp 9.693% |

Teammates Tentacruel:

Hide

| Teammates |
| Politoed 72.795% |
| Ferrothorn 52.072% |
| Genesect 50.750% |
| Tornadus-Therian 48.413% |
| Dugtrio 34.347% |
| Kyurem-Black 26.852% |
| Jirachi 24.780% |
| Terrakion 9.877% |
| Breloom 9.568% |
| Abomasnow 9.039% |
| Tornadus 8.245% |
| Keldeo 8.201% |

and finally Teammates Dugtrio:

Hide

| Teammates |
| Genesect 81.599% |
| Politoed 63.848% |
| Tornadus-Therian 58.271% |
| Tentacruel 36.199% |
| Ferrothorn 33.968% |
| Ninetales 22.258% |
| Keldeo 21.515% |
| Latios 19.563% |
| Venusaur 17.054% |
| Xatu 16.078% |
| Kyurem-Black 7.528% |
| Rotom-Wash 7.063% |

What is your opinion about that? I did reqs on last suspect and I found this team (Genesect, Dugtrio, Ferrothorn, Politoed, Tentacruel, Tornadus-t) and others versions a lot of times. There was a RMT about this team but I dont find it now. On suspect, people used the same team one time and again, it was like a trend, so Dugtrio became it in a trend in that moment. I think that we mustn't consider the suspect's statistics, they are misleading.

Furthermore, the suspect's statistics shows us that Genesect is used with Dugtrio, but Dugtrio is not used with Genesect. Genesect prefers other teammates. So, Heatran's use decreased for other reason different to Genesect. It decreased because people used the famous team for to do "requirements".

 

[shartruce]

Hide

Learned my lesson from last test and started early this time. Laddered to reqs this evening, going 46-5, but it's not much because it's the ladder with lesser skilled players.

I laddered with a team I made about a month ago, with Scarf genesect/xatu/dugtrio/politoed/ scarf latios/ specs empoleon. Even though gene+xatu+duggy cores aren't as common as it was a couple months ago when lavossun was being hyped (I constructed this team based off his), it's a really good core for keeping hazards off the field and getting rid of terrakion, one of gene's best checks, and ttar/ninetales, allowing me to win the weather war much easier. I was trying out empoleon because I needed a decent offensive lati@s counter, and it works pretty decently in this meta. It's also a good check to RP genes with gigadrain/flamethrower/icebeam. Modest Specs Hydropump is really strong, 2hkoing pokes that resist it. If it gets to torrent level, something will die.

I completely agree with others who have said running two scarfers is viable in this meta. Scarfsect gets outrun by a lot of dangerous +1 and scarf pokes, such as Salamence, Terrakion, and Keldeo, all of which are easily defeated by Scarf Latios, who I also run on my team. It's nice to have another scarfer help genesect to do it's job, and having a scarfer 100+ is necessary these days to outspeed the very common scarfsect.

My thoughts on using genesect, I only have used scarfsect because it's the easiest one for me to use and it does its job very well, creating offensive momentum through downloaded boosted u turns. I found that scarfsect is arguably the best lead in the game, a fast uturn out to your counter, gaining momentum from the start. Even though I'm using a specially based set, I like using 252 atk to get the most out of u-turn, which I spam the most. I tend to use special attacks only when I get the spatk boost anyways.

As for playing against genesect, I didn't have much trouble with the most common scarfsects. Like a lot of other's peoples opinions, I think RP is it's most threatening set. Once it gets to +2, it's nearly impossible to stop, and the opponent probably has the game won. I got swept by it a few times and is the best sweeper in OU in my opinion

As for thinking if it's broken or not, I don't fully stand on one side yet, and I can understand both sides. I may be leaning towards a ban because it's not making the meta very enjoyable and due to overcentralization. However, I think I find pokes like Keldeo and Terrakion to be in general more threatening than genesect. But in order for more diversity in the tier, I think genesect may need to go. I'm still open to changing my mind, so I would love to hear other's opinions!

 

[Nyara]

Well, the best counter to Genesect so far is to revenge kill it with Magneton or using a Wobbuffet (more people should use Wobbuffet, I think, he's the master counter and check of every single sweeper on the game, except maybe the rarest 4+ Dragon Dance Dragonite or out control things like that). Wobbuffet is a great counter to sweepers, and it somewhat works with some stalls now, so, it's a good option if someone fears Genesect and don't want to have to overcheck it.

But of course, Wobbufet is the master counter, so, if he's able or not to counter doesn't matter to the fact if he's or not uber. Other decent counter I been seen against him is the use of an Intimidate Pokèmon with high special defense, it works pretty well most of the time because it checks him's overpowered ability.

 

[Shurtugal]

I think it did it right this time:

Req.

One half way there. Not commenting until I qualify next req.'s

 

[Aqualouis]

I think that i'm the first one here to get the reqs, but it's seriously painful. I've got a lot of troubles on the suspect one, because i suddenly began to miss like all my stone edge / focus blast in all my battles and I had to struggle a lot to get that rating...
Anyway my opinion is still the same, Genesect is centralizing the metagame, and i'd rather see it banned.

 

[W_M]

I think that i'm the first one here to get the reqs, but it's seriously painful. I've got a lot of troubles on the suspect one, because i suddenly began to miss like all my stone edge / focus blast in all my battles and I had to struggle a lot to get that rating...
Anyway my opinion is still the same, Genesect is centralizing the metagame, and i'd rather see it banned.

Did you use the same team in both ladders? Have you used any special thing in OUCurrent for Genesect? What is the big threat in the second ladder? What ladder was funnier to play? I'm interested... please.

 

[Aqualouis]

I used two differents teams, one for each ladder.

In the OU Current, I used a bulky sand offense with Genesect. Genesect wasn't a big issue honnestly because i'm running TerraScarf, my own Genescarf, Rotom SDef and Hippowdon Sdef to deal with it. But even with that, the scarf is still annoying because of my lack of recovery moves, and the new RP Genesect with Giga Drain was even harder to stop. I managed to beat it when i faced it because they were running Life Orb, and because Terrakion is able to survive a Giga Drain thanks to the SandStorm but it's still one of the biggest threat in the metagame actually imo.

In the second ladder, I used a HO rain. At the beggining (because the end was just painful thanks to the haxx (y) ), it was really funnier than the Current ladder, there is more orignilaty in the teams played on this one. In the current one, almost every team you face is using Genesect and pokémons like Terrakion / Heatran to face it, which means that you face a lot and a lot of sand teams. I also faced a lot of hard stall on the suspect ladder. And I don't think that there is A big threat on this ladder, that's why i think that banning Genesect would be a good thing.

 

[Schpoonman]

I also faced a lot of hard stall on the suspect ladder. And I don't think that there is A big threat on this ladder, that's why i think that banning Genesect would be a good thing.

Someone pick up that phone, because I fucking called it. Without the threat of Genesect, who I am still convinced is absolutely terrible for the metagame, the metagame slowed down.

Lemme break it down for you again if I haven't already: RP Genesect is THE most threatening sweeper in the game. Short of healthy dedicated walls, there is nothing that can stop him once he hits +1/+2. The problem with running dedicated walls is that you are now fodder for the dozens of other terrifyingly powerful wall breakers that litter the metagame. Your Chansey/Blissey goes down, Genesect has his way with your team. Hell, this applies with other Genesect. He is such a machine designed for taking momentum and keeping it that if you let up for a single second in this insane metagame, it's GG no re.

 

[capefeather]

It's kind of weird seeing people talk about a Choice Scarf user working on a stall team as if that's an amazing accomplishment. Also can we please stop with the IV thing? If Genesect instead had an ability that just boosted its SpA no matter what, there would be no point in such measures despite this hypothetical Genesect being better in most respects. It's just how Download works...

 

[Nix_Hex]

Not to mention that most Pokemon who are tailored to mess up Download have equal or near equal defenses. Timid Deoxys-D can run 252 HP / 4 Def just to prevent Genesect from getting the Attack boost, which is scarier for Scarf Genesect U-turn, while Bug Buzz isn't as common. Big deal, it's 4 EVs. Likewise, Genesect itself need only change its nature to Hasty for a mixed set or invest 4 into SpD to prevent opposing Genesect from getting a Special Attack boost. This is hardly "metagame defining."

 

[Tobes]

Actually in my experience with Deoxys-D it's usually better to let Genesect get the Attack boost rather than the Special Attack, because Deoxys-D can live a Timid LO Bug Buzz, but not if Genesect gets a Special Attack boost. Meanwhile Scarf Genesect doesn't OHKO with U-turn even with the Attack boost. Of course you get boned by CB Genesect but that set is comparatively rare to Rock Polish / Expert Belt.

I seem to be in a minority in thinking that Genesect isn't broken. (I do seem to remember making a speech about how I would never ban Genesect from Dream World, but that's a whole 'nother issue and I digress.) It's one of the suspects I feel least strongly about at the moment, although I can really only see a decent case being made for Rock Polish Genesect being broken. I don't think that being an excellent utility mon is grounds for a ban. Genesect is definitely one of the best of the best, if not the best, threats in the metagame, but I haven't really felt that it was an overwhelming force. (This isn't to say it's one of the biggest influences on the metagame, because it is.)

One of the stronger arguments I can see for Genesect is the degree to which it centralizes the metagame, but high usage does not necessarily mean unhealthy metagame dominance. Genesect is not this invincible killing machine that the metagame revolves around (although it admittedly has a large impact). It's a Pokemon that slots cozily into most of the common archetypes. There's a difference between the two. It is entirely possible to have a good team without running Genesect. The claims I've seen that a team is not optimal without Genesect are probably the worst type of hyperbole these threads tend to generate.

 

[M Dragon]

I think Im the second one to get reqs.
In current OU ladder Genesect is the monster, especially the RP set, which can sweep teams with a sp atk boost (most offensive teams are weak to RP genesect). I have also used a HP ground with expert belt lure set with great success, and scarf u-turn is as good as always giving you the tempo of the battle.

In the suspect ladder at first I used a rain team, and then I alterned between sand and sun stall. Sun stall was very effective in the suspect ladder, and it is also very good vs rain teams, which are very popular. Tornadus-t and Keldeo were also everywhere.

In my opinion, Genesect should be Uber.

 

[alexwolf]

Just posting to say that CBTar is an awesome check to Rock Polish Genesect as long as you are careful enough to have it at 70% health or more. If Sect has Bug Buzz you lose, but you can never be sure with that fucker anyway... It's not like CBTar has many chances to do something against those hyper offensive teams except from trapping Lati@s here and there, so keeping it healthy hasn't been a problem for me.

 

[Schpoonman]

Wait. How is CBTar a good check? Wouldn't specially-defensive Tar with Flamethrower be better?

EDIT (after calcs): Yeah, it seems like SpDefTar is better, never being 2HKOd with +1 LO Modest Giga Drain. You can even survive Bug Buzz if you switch in for free/on Rocks/on one layer of Spikes, though any combination of hazards removes your guaranteed survival (252SpAtk Life Orb +1 Genesect (+SAtk) Bug Buzz in Sandstorm vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Tyranitar (+SpDef): 69% - 83% (282 - 338 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO).

 

[alexwolf]

Yeah SpD Ttar works better, but everyone knows this. And i personally think that SpD is Tyranitars worse set that doesn't take advantage of its pros, so i always stay away from it. CBTar can OHKO with Stone Edge if this was what you were asking...

 

[Schpoonman]

I assumed he could, but that still sounds hell of risky. I know I've had shit luck with hax recently so I wouldn't risk it.

 

[Hot N Cold]

I'm here, this rank is from OU Current ladder, I was using my Bulky Off Sand and Dragmag, this last team was really weak against RP Genesect without Occa Berry Magnezone is easily 6-0 by this set when this mon get +1 SpA, probably the most dangerous set in the currently metagame, also the Scarf Genesect is very useful for any team. I saw different sets really very good like a pseudo-RP set with Flame Charge in Sun.

Genesect probably is the best mon at the moment, can work well in different teams and non-true counters.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

I assumed he could, but that still sounds hell of risky. I know I've had shit luck with hax recently so I wouldn't risk it.

I think that alexwolf said that while SpDef Tyranitar is better at taking out Genesect, it is a less notable set due to one reason or another, and that's why a CBtar is considered a good check.

I have a doubt, however. How can Tyranitar, independent of its set, be a good check to Genesect, if your opponent has Dugtrio and a non-Hippowdon and a non-Tyranitar weather summoner?

 

[alexwolf]

I mentioned that CBTar is a good check to RP Genesect because often people forget it, while everyone knows that the same is true about SpD Ttar.

DFA in this scenario, which mostly happens against offensive rain teams, i would be fine because i use Hippo too :D

 

[Vanguard]

Just started under Callyx at the 1600 mark on the standard ladder.

Has anyone tried using Kyreum-B on the no Gene ladder?

 

[superstar]

I know this has been said before but I think people are confusing versatility and effectiveness with something being broken. Genesect is used a ton because it fits on all four of the major types of teams currently being used, Deo-D , Rain, Sand, Sun, but it's not impossible or even that difficult to play against. The band and non-RP Ebelt sets are ok, but I don't think they should even be discussed in deciding whether or not Genesect is broken; they aren't game breaking. Scarf is also way overrated in my opinion as it's not really fast enough to revenge the important speed boosters and it's setup bait if it's locked into anything early-mid game. Sure fast and decently strong U-turns is cool, but it's not that hard to deal with and it's not that much different than the other scouts being used. It's ability to clean late game is solid, but a lot of scarf users can clean up late if their checks are weakened. The Rock Polish set is really good, and it will sweep a lot of teams, but as other people have said most teams have a built in check to it. Sure it can get around every check it has but in doing so it leaves it self open to losing to other things, and in most cases if it's not running the standards it loses to more things total. This lets it act as a really good lure, but that's not game breaking either. His typing is cool but it just lets him set up things, he can't really switch in more than once to anything as long as SR is up.

Long story short Genesect isn't even as good as most weather abusers, his only advantage is that he fits well on every team thanks to solid typing and coverage. If you're keeping up the offensive pressure it shouldn't be hard to keep it from setting up, and the fact that if you guess wrong you lose a pokemon with Genesect is something easily attributed to many threats in the metagame. I want to be clear that I'm not saying I'm 100% sure that Genesect isn't broken or anything like that, I'm just saying that right now I remain really unconvinced that it's a) game breaking or b) centralizing the metagame more so than weather. My vote as of now is pretty undecided but for now I'd side with keeping it legal.

I agree 110%. Genesect is a great Pokemon, no doubt about it. I remember an old Dream World RMT that picked 5 members and then said, "Genesect can do almost everything, so there's really no reason not to use it." RP Sect is a devastating sweeper, it's true, but without U-Turn it is not easy to remove Heatran or Jirachi from the field. I generally chuck SpDef Jirachi on my rain teams to deal with Tornadus-T, and he does an outstanding job checking Genesect in rain.

+1 248 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi in rain: 108-128 (26.73 - 31.68%)

Even Thunder only does 39% max.
I think one only needs to look at the current Defense of the Titans project to see that even stall can be viable in this metagame if one just adapts their team around a certain threat.

The point of all this rambling is that Genesect may just be the perfect Pokemon that isn't Uber. He fits well on almost any team, and can be a great scout and revenge killer. He can serve almost any utility purpose, from excellent sweeper to dragon check. He defines the metagame, but objectively I don't think we can say he is broken in the same way Excadrill or Thunderus were. That being said, if people just want to ban him because they don't like the guy, and no one really likes him, that's perfectly fine. However, lets just remember that this is BW2, a totally different game than BW1. I'm sure there were calls to ban Scizor when Platinum came out, let's be careful to give Gene the chance he deserves.

 

[Myzozoa]

Ok posting this here:

Basically I just abused RP Genesect while using Gengar+Deo-D. The meta was passably interesting I guess, rain teams with Torn-t and Genesect where manageable with Sub-Salac Terrakion, but then you lose to Gliscor and stall because you have no Rock Gem to boost your stone edges. I lost half my games to focus blast missing on Gengar, but otherwise I would say Sub-Disable is the most threatening pokemon against this metagame. I used a team with No spin blocker at the end just to have rotom-w to ensure the win against rain teams as I fought to get my rating up. I'm going to vote to ban genesect, the RP and Scarf sets are just unbelievably overpowering, and it makes rain offense really difficult. On to getting reqs on the suspect ladder, where I'll make another update.