np: NU Stage 6 - Magic Black Woman

[WhiteDMist]

I think it is because Chlorophyll sweepers don't get a power up for their STAB moves in the Sun like Swift Swim sweepers do for Rain. Also, the Fire types that get boosted in the Sun are usually Stealth Rock weak, and they are all somewhat vulnerable if the Sun isn't up. While that is also true of Rain, their typing also has a somewhat decent synergy (like the core of Mantine, Ludicolo and Seismitoad).

I used a Sun team during the Underdog challenge, and I actually liked it a lot. Priority Sun from the likes of Illumise was crucial in the team's success since I was using Victreebel and Emboar as the main sweepers. The main problem with Sun teams is the difficulty in creating good type synergy. You already have Fire and Grass types, so a Water type seems perfect to create a solid defensive core, but very few Water types want to be in the Sun (and the defensive ones slow down the momentum/offensive pressure). I actually like using Cloud Nine Golduck as my Water type simply because Sun doesn't affect it at all, so it can accomplish some things that you would expect a Water type to accomplish (i.e.- take hits, set up, tank Fire attacks, etc.).

 

[Raseri]

This thread hasn't been posted in for quite awhile. SO I have one question for you guys, What do you think of Braviary? It's one of the most versatile threats right now, capable of breaking walls, revenging threats, or even boosting. Is that enough to make it broken? Or is it just a top-tier threat?

 

[watashi]

Braviary is excellent, but far from broken. Substitute Bulk Up is great but it is not as effective against the offensive teams that dominate this metagame. The Choice sets are excellent but they require a lot of prediction to be effective as almost every team carries Rock-type. It carries a nasty Stealth Rock weakness that deters every one of its sets. This makes it easy to wear down throughout the match as long as you keep up the momentum.

 

[Ewil]

The BU&sub set is awesome, if you can switch on a defensive pokémon, is so easy to setup on, but against offensive teams, like FLCL says, is pretty hard to find the right moment to setup and the pressure is high and you must choose to bulk up or sub the first time and see if you can do the rest or simply go for the Brave Bird depending on your opponent switch in.
And while the SubBU set can recover the SR damage with Roost, the Choice sets are principally debilitated by the most common entry hazard.
On another note, we must say that his bulk and power are very nice for this meta, the only bad point of his stats is the speed, but his sets don't carry to much or can ovviate to this.

Top-tier mon, but not broken.
Also, another question that i usually do in this period is: What you think is broken in this meta ?
Personally i think that the meta is pretty balanced right now and the only thing that i think is annoy(not broken) to face is Amoongus that force me to use a dedicated counter (not that his counters can only to this eh), but principally i think he's annoy with his accurate sleep move and awesome bulk that allows him to tank even an unboosted SE special hit like Ice Beam from Samurott.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I think the only reason braviary could be banworthy would be because of how important it is to predict correctly. Sure subbu is not very good against offensive teams, but that is if your opponent know's braviary is sub bulk up. None of braviary's sets are broken imo but one misprediction on an opposing braviary set can easily cost you the game. For example, say your opponent sends in braviary against your beheeyem. If you predict the choice set and go straight to something like tank carracosta or regirock while he just bulk's up in your face, you probably just lost the game right there. If you decide to attack with beheeyem and he did turn out to be a choice set, you just lost a great poke for nothing.

I still think brav can stay in the tier since he has a nasty SR weakness that adds up to the brave bird recoil and is weak to electric types which are very hard to cover in NU since pretty much no poke in the tier reliably answers to all electric pokes.

I don't think anything is broken in NU atm. I still would like a bit of change in the metagame because we've had nearly the same meta for the last 4 months but that's no reason to ban brav.

 

[Ewil]

I don't think anything is broken in NU atm. I still would like a bit of change in the metagame because we've had nearly the same meta for the last 4 months but that's no reason to ban brav.

QFT, expecially the last part.

We must discover some new funny and effective set to abuse to render this meta less "boring" :P Sub-BU Brav shake a part of the meta and i'm sure that there are still others undiscovered and powerful threats in the bottom of the NU tier *_*

 

[EonADS]

Braviary is good, but far from broken or banworthy. The Bulk Up set is very dangerous, but it lacks Speed and its coverage consists of one move. Head it off early with an Electric-type or something else that threatens it (Offensive Probopass is actually a great BU Braviary check, after SR Power Gem is almost an assured 2HKO, while Braviary cannot 2HKO in return even with +6 Brave Bird), and you can beat it pretty easily. The Choice Band set is powerful, but it's a Choice set, and with that comes predictability and the need to switch out when countered, thus making it rack up more Stealth Rock damage. Same goes for Scarf and its speed. Life Orb is somewhat slow, and it racks up a lot of damage between Stealth Rock, Life Orb recoil, and Brave Bird recoil. Sure, it doesn't have a "hard counter" for all of its sets, but each of its sets is easy enough to check or just wear down until it dies. Sweet Jesus is definitely correct in that Braviary's biggest selling point is that it forces the opponent to respond correctly or pay the price.

I really don't think anything is broken. Ludicolo is annoying as fuck, but managable. Musharna is easy to check or counter with Dark-types and against some teams it just sits on the sidelines looking pretty. Gurdurr is powerful, but not even close to unbeatable. Most teams have at least some way to check it. Emboar is awesome, but limited by its powerful recoil moves and low speed. Zangoose is frail and easy to beat between faster Pokes like Haunter and Miltank, faster priority from the likes of stuff like Basculin, and bulkier Scarfers like Rotom-S. And the list goes on and on.

One thing that would be interesting would be to see what something like Sandslash would do to the tier. The lack of viable Rapid Spinners is a defining characteristic of NU, and I would personally like to see how the inclusion of one would affect the metagame.

 

[Django]

One thing that would be interesting would be to see what something like Sandslash would do to the tier. The lack of viable Rapid Spinners is a defining characteristic of NU, and I would personally like to see how the inclusion of one would affect the metagame.

Yeah we would all love to have some more options in terms of spinners, but unfortunately this just isn't how tiering works, nor will we ever be going down this route. Arbitrarily dropping pokemon due to their percieved power would just get way too messy, not to mention completely subjective, and is most certainly not happening.

Having said that, I do agree with you, certain Pokemon like Sandslash would easily fit in NU, but the fact is that Rapid Spin has become such a valuable move it can easily put a Pokemon a tier or two above where it "should" be.

PS: I'm not implying you suggested we actually drop down Sandslash, just making sure everyone is clear that is not how tiering works; someone would inevitably jump on the idea and talk about it.

 

[MarshallLeRoy]

Braviary is definitely a Pokemon that every team has to be prepared for in NU, but honestly it is pretty easy to check. Eviolite Golbat can wall most sets easily as long as rocks aren't up. I seem to read a lot about Braviary and his versatility but honestly I always seem to approach Braviary the same way. As long as my wall is alive, it's going in. Sure SubBU can catch someone off guard but the same attacking moves are always coming at you. The Banded set worries me a lot more - if my switch in is hurt at all, it's going to die.

As for brokenness in NU... Honestly nothing is actually broken right now. There are annoying Pokemon, like Amonguss, but he's not exactly ban worthy. There are tons of viable checks and counters to Amoonguss out there and worst case scenario, simply let him sleep one of your mons and he becomes setup bait for all kinds of powerful threats. Sure, having something put to sleep can be game ending, but having a couple of backup plans for your team ready for Amoonguss coming in can make it really manageable. Also, Spikes.

 

[citro]

Braviary is definitely a Pokemon that every team has to be prepared for in NU, but honestly it is pretty easy to check. Eviolite Golbat can wall most sets easily as long as rocks aren't up.

252Atk Choice Band Braviary (Neutral) Brave Bird vs 252HP/176Def Eviolite Golbat (+Def): 51% - 61% (184 - 217 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Even without rocks up it's a guaranteed 2HKO. Not to mention it's pretty silly to assume rocks aren't up in NU when there's so few viable spinners, so even with max defense Golbat can't handle it most of the time. (ie. with SR up)

Something I've been having a lot of trouble with lately is CB Emboar. The amazing coverage behind its STABs alone make it a huge threat to most of my teams. It seems to me like the only foolproof way to check it is to bring an Alomomola, which certainly doesn't appeal to me a lot. Otherwise I've been having to play around it with a Musharna + Rock type (Regirock probably) core which can handle both of its STABs, however one wrong play and I'm left with a huge dent in my team's defense. I'm not saying it's broken at all, just because it's very easy to revenge. Most offensive pokes outspeed it and can kill it off, especially with all of its moves damaging it / lowering its stats. However, I'm not a fan of the pressure it puts on my teambuilding. Thoughts?

 

[watashi]

Alomomola + a sturdy Fighting resist is probably the best way to deal with CB Emboar since Alomomola can simply switch out and heal back most of the HP lost with Regenerator even if it switches in on the wrong move. However, this strategy is extremely weak to the Expert Belt lure set, which can often KO your switch in.

 

[MMF]

I think as far as checking Emboar goes (besides using FLCL's advice) you're better off having at least one or two Pokemon on your team that outspeed and kill Emboar is the best way to deal with it. That and hazard and recoil damage really starts racking up damage on Emboar which makes it a lot easier to deal with. So packing things like Samurott, Swellow, Gardevoir are a great idea.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I have similar problems with emboar when teambuilding. I suggest you abuse the choice lock at it's full potential and use SD samurott or SS gorebyss. you don't neceseraly have to switch them out on emboar, but once emboar got his kill, they get to set up on it for free and hopefully you can make big damage from there.

 

[ebeast]

I definitely wouldn't recommend switching in Samurott or Gorebyss into Emboar unless it's your only choice. CB Emboar has enough power to 2HKO both Samurott and Gorebyss with Flare Blitz (Gorebyss is outpaced as well, which really sucks) There are really 2 main ways of dealing with a Choiced Emboar outside of the Alomomola + Fighting-type resist method: Prediction or just checking it. If you can predict around its coverage such as switch in a bulky Fire-type resist such as Regirock or Carracosta at the right time or switching in a Ghost-type Pokemon such as Golurk, Haunter, or Drifblim into a Superpower gives you tons of momentum against it. However this requires tip top prediction or Emboar will just score another kill. If you predict wrong against Emboar, it's not totally over as you can still check it with faster Pokemon or take advantage of the move it has locked itself into. Against great checks such as Samurott this could be deadly for the Emboar user as it will mean that they have to fodder their Emboar or have a teammate take a hit. Since Emboar is so slow even keeping up offensive momentum can be enough to keep Emboar at bay as it has to chance to switch in and if it does it has to tank a hit and get easily revenge killed the following turn. Emboar is a beast and opens holes on a lot of teams but getting it out safely in this metagame is not easy for it and is what people should take advantage of if they want to deal with Emboar.

As for the mixed and Specs sets they are beating by prediction, checks, and offensive momentum all the same, however they can score surprise KOes on unsuspecting Alomomolas and the like. Even though they aren't common, what do you guys think of Specs or Mixed Emboar for those who have used it?

 

[watashi]

Mixed Emboar actually doesn't have the power to OHKO Alomomola, which makes Alomomola one of the best counters to Emboar in the tier. However, Choice Specs Focus Blast will kill it off; luckily it's not that common. Mixed Emboar is a great lure for Pokemon such as Amoonguss or Golurk switching into a predicted Superpower. However, it's damage output can be disappointing against neutral targets such as Musharna and Garbodor if you're not using Life Orb, which gives away the fact that you are mixed.

 

[MMF]

I used Mixed Emboar there for awhile and its a really solid set but like FLCL said its really lacks power agaist neutral targets. The Mixed Sets success comes from being able to hit its targets super effectively and when it can't then it becomes a little lackluster.

 

[Mijzelffan]

So the new dream world area that will be released in Japan on november 21st is going to have mold breaker Sawk in it, making it legal. That is going to suck for Sturdy leads.

 

[Dell]

Yeah, I would imagine it causing a very significant strain of utilizing Golem (which is better said than so in practice, considering that Sawk is quite common to begin with), even in more offensive teams, resulting in a much less viable function, as well as Probopass and Bastiodon.

Likewise for Sawk, what do you guys think of the functions on the current metagame that the Simi trio (Simisage, Simipour, and Simisear) would have on their soon-to-be released Dream World abilities?

 

[tennisace]

Likewise for Sawk, what do you guys think of the functions on the current metagame that the Simi trio (Simisage, Simipour, and Simisear) would have on their soon-to-be released Dream World abilities?

Yeah sure in a tier chock full of priority users I'm going to rely on frail mons at 33% hp. Pass.

Scraggy gets Intimidate though which could be cool for setting up on mons like Regirock/Kangaskhan/Normal-types I guess, but Shed Skin is really good.

People are kind of overblowing Sawk a little bit because one of the big draws of Sawk is that (with exceptions) it's able to get at least one attack off thanks to its own Sturdy. Mold Breaker is nice though for taking away one of Rotom-S's Ground immunities!!!

 

[Oiawesome]

While we are on the topic of soon to be DW Lampent REALLY sticks out.Shadow Tag lampent with evolite has better defenses than gothi I belive and Traps evreything the flame charge set and the CM set really stick out because of the newly added abillity,TR Might also become populer as well, especialy since it can run HP fighting with its secondary STAB(Shadow Ball)and get perfect covrage,just a quick Q wont lampent be insta banned when Shadow Tag comes out?

 

[watashi]

While we are on the topic of soon to be DW Lampent REALLY sticks out.Shadow Tag lampent with evolite has better defenses than gothi I belive and Traps evreything the flame charge set and the CM set really stick out because of the newly added abillity,TR Might also become populer as well, especialy since it can run HP fighting with its secondary STAB(Shadow Ball)and get perfect covrage,just a quick Q wont lampent be insta banned when Shadow Tag comes out?

Lampent has a Stealth Rock weakness and mediocre stats. If Gothitelle didn't get auto-banned (most of the top players didn't even think it was that good) then Lampent surely don't get banned when Shadow Tag gets released.

 

[ebeast]

I'm about to go a little on the theorymon side and talk about some of the new upcoming DW Pokemon here.

I'm not really sure how Lampent will pan out, it seems really cool but I don't really know how to approach using it. On talk of the monkeys I actually mainly wanted to focus on Simisage. It has always been the one that most people overlook however I was thinking about a Sub +3 Attack set that worked in the same vain as Sceptile does in RU. It can use its good 101 base Speed and decent coverage to force out Pokemon or just Substitute down until it can get into Overgrow range. From there it can fire off LO and Overgrow boosted Giga Drains and recover a lot of its health back so it can get up Substitutes again. Even though priority is still everywhere Simisage should not be setting up Overgrow in the face of Gurdurr or Zangoose anyways and it already resists Aqua Jet. Since the set has Substitute it can even avoid Sucker Punch from Absol if needed. The main problem with this Pokemon is that Amoonguss is everywhere and Simisage's Hidden Power Ice is not strong enough to break it. It's not all that strong without its Overgrow boost either and Giga Drain only has an ok 75 BP however, I can see it being a decent threat with some support in the form of Spikes or even Gothorita or DW Lampent.

EDIT: The monkeys actually came out yesterday :O Also:

• 252SpAtk Life Orb Simisage (Neutral) Hidden Power (Ice) vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Amoonguss (Neutral): 45% - 54% (196 - 234 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 3% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers

That is surprisingly good damage for a Hidden Power on Amoonguss, although it does have to predict it coming in. Stealth Rock should do the trick a good amount of the time, however it has more trouble with the Amoonguss that have more special investment.

 

[jake]

aaand the votes are in

key; dnb = do not ban, ban = ban, abs = abstain
(no particular ordering for the list of voters)

[U]Braviary[/U]       [u]Voters[/u] ([i]rotating[/i]) 
  dnb          CrashinBoomBang
  dnb          DTC
  dnb          Amarillo
  dnb          Django
  dnb          Raseri
  dnb          FLCL
  dnb          Zebraiken
  dnb          [i]Annoyer[/i]
  ban          [i]AgentDell[/i]
  dnb          [i]EBeast[/i]
  dnb          [i]tennisace[/i] 
 
final: 1-10 ([B]dnb[/B])

individual paragraphs:

CrashinBoomBang

Braviary: Do not ban

I'll keep this one brief since I already stated my full opinion here http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4471466&postcount=24

Basically, can excel at pretty much anything, be it a set-up sweeper, revenge killer or wallbreaker, but it can't do all of those things at once. Since Choice Band and Choice Scarf sets really aren't much different from Pokemon such as Emboar or Sawk (the only thing that sets it apart in that regard is the fact that it can break through Alomomoonguss with just 1 move), Sub BU has been the most discussed set recently.

Basically, it doesn't have the time to set up against Offense and most Balance teams, since it doesn't like switching into Stealth Rocks + attacks from anything on those kind of teams, really (even Pokemon such as Alomomola can nail it with a Toxic on the switch). Keeping Stealth Rocks away from the field, while possible, is far from reliable, and it still can't keep up with Pokemon such as Sawk, Emboar, Ludicolo, Samurott and such without sacrificing itself; should it come in after a KO then it still isn't hard to force out, thanks to its only mediocre attack stat without boosts. Stall teams can also prevent it from doing much at all rather easily by using a move such as Psych Up Regirock or playing cleverly with a Pokemon such as Bastiodon.

Basically, Braviary doesn't make any Pokemon or playstyles unviable at all and probably helps the metagame much more than it hurts it (mostly because it doesn't hurt the metagame in any way at all), and I thus believe that Braviary is not broken at all.

DTC

Do not ban

Braviary's middling Speed and weakness to Stealth Rock prevent it from being broken. Unless it is Choice Scarf, which has numerous flaws on its own, Braviary will not accomplish much against offensive teams. Choice Band Braviary relies on flawless prediction; every team besides certain variants of offense should carry a Flying-, Normal-, and Fighting-type resistance regardless of the presence of Braviary. Braviary's main STAB, Brave Bird, augments to its ease of being worn out of health.

Some people claim that you lose a Pokemon if you guess Braviary's set wrong. First off, it should rarely be a guessing game; you can deduct by looking at the rest of the team what Braviary set the opposing team is using. Second, that is incorrect. Bulky Rock-types, especially Regirock, are a good litmus test when attempting to switch into Braviary. Even if it happens to be SubBU, you can switch out and you will likely not lose a Pokemon because SubBU Braviary boosts slowly. You can also use stuff like Curse Regirock to boost alongside the Braviary. SubBU Braviary is apparently notorious for breaking through stall teams, but even though it is a huge threat to stall teams, there are a variety of answers to it that you can use. Curse Regirock, any Regirock with status beats Braviary if they predict right (and it is not exactly hard thanks to the amount of chances you have to predict right... Braviary is not going to be killing Regirock anytime soon), Power Gem + Toxic Probopass, and other Pokemon like Ampharos.

Braviary is a good wallbreaker, but nothing that special enough to justify banning it.

Amarillo

This post essentially lines up my thought process - i knew i would have little time now so I managed to write up a whole lot beforehand. I am still afraid of the diversity not explored in Braviary - I guess something like a Life Orb set etc can be really hard set for stall to handle, especially in conjunction with the current threats. Yeah, mainly I guess the lack of speed cuts it in terms of being "uncheckable" for offense, it is mildly coverable for defense, and to be honest defensive teams have trouble covering their ass vs. million other threats...

I vote no ban. Sorry if this seems a bit rushed (because it is.)

Django

My post

I'll keep this quick and easy (like zeb). I will be voting do not ban. Braviary fits into the NU metagame very well, and at no point have I felt it is unmanageable, nor is it warping the metagame around itself in a negative manner. There is no doubting Braviary is a top, top threat, but it has its limitations. Both of it's choice sets rely heavily on prediction, and the weakness to Stealth Rock (along with recoil damage) means they cannot just switch in and out as they please. Neither Scarf nor Band has been considered a reason to suspect Braviary, so I won't talk much more about them. The Bulk Up set is the thing that has thrown Braviary into the spotlight, and with good reason. It is a fantastic Pokemon, but somewhat better on paper than in practice. Provided you can keep constant offensive pressure on it, Braviary will not have a chance to set up, and naturally will not be anywhere near as threatening. If you do give it a chance to set up, then yes you are going to have trouble. This can be applied to nearly any Pokemon though. More defensive teams can easily deal with it as well, running a more adaptive set like Psych Up Regirock. All in all Braviary is a fantastic Pokemon, but not overpowering or broken.

Raseri

braviary is not broken because dongle and cbb say so. But actually its not broken because each set struggles with way to much to be broken. Choice Band is way to slow to do anything. Choice Scarf is way to weak to accomplish much. SubBU fails against anyone who knows what theyre doing. Each set is very threatening, but they all can be handled, so I can't ban something that easy to beat in a real game scenario.

FLCL

no ban

braviary has three viable sets, choice scarf, choice band, and substitute bulk up. the latter two are no surprise to the tier and are definitely not broken; they weren't even suspected last round. stealth rock and the prominent rock-types get the better of those two sets, while alomomola—one of the common physical walls in the tier—can basically wall choiced braviary to death. even if it switches in on a banded brave bird, the opponent can simply switch out to a rock-type while preserving most of alomomola's health thanks to regenerator. the scarf set is a decent revenge killer, but is unable to outrun gorebyss after a shell smash and is not quite on par speed wise with the numerous scarfed electric-types in the tier. it also lacks the power to break through physical walls that are not grass-types.

with that being said, braviary's recently discovered substitute bulk up set takes full advantage of some of the traditional checks to braviary, being able to set up on walls such as non-psych up regirock, alomomola, and probopass. on top of that, it absolutely demolishes defensive teams since most pokemon on those teams simply cannot do enough damage to braviary and are subsequently set up on. bulkier electric-types such as rotom, ampharos, or eelektross can handle this set well, but they do not like taking a choice banded return one bit. one wrong prediction against braviary can result in disastrous consequences.

however, not everything is sunshine and rainbows for substitute bulk up braviary. due to it only carrying one attack, there are multiplte hard-counters for it, such as the aforementioned psych up regirock, bulky electric-types, roar bastiodon, lairon, toxic probopass, or shell smash carracosta. it also cannot do enough damage without obtaining a boost, which means that smart play by an offensive team can result it being forced out, taking stealth rock damage and reducing it's usefulness, despite the fact that it has roost. in fact, it is usually fairly easy to predict when a braviary will roost, allowing you to send in something that can pressure it out, such as samurott, zangoose, or sawk.

although braviary is a versatile threat that can muscle its way though the usual flying-type counters, it can be defeated by applying pressure and taking advantage of its weakness to stealth rock. well built defensive teams should have one of the hard counters mentioned previously, all of which are completely viable pokemon. it fits quite well in nu and is a top tier threat for sure, but does not deserve to be banned.

Zebraiken

brevity is for the strong.

i'll try not to rehash everything that the other votes will probably say. braviary is an excellent pokemon in the nu metagame, carrying enormous potential for destruction every time it comes into play. its most common sets are probably the two choice sets, of which scarf is really not even worth talking about in this context. sr, the prominence of rock- and steel-types, and the generally fast metagame all hold braviary back. more than anything, this reminds me of the initial gorebyss vote where people voted on gorebyss because it was so scary in theory, but yet wasn't anything near broken in practice. however, let's push through the primary issues one by one.

subbu brav has no counters. this is flatly not true, and speaking as the one who really pushed this set through to others i will honestly tell you that subbu brav is not nearly as effective as it is on paper, especially now that people realize it exists and are beginning to prepare for it. to get the feared 'clean 6-0' with it, it basically requires your opponent to carry multiple pokemon that are set-up bait (think stuff like alomoonguss) and also to provide no offensive presence against braviary bar something like regirock with stone edge. if you're using a team build like that, then you're also going to get fucked over by things like subcm gardevoir and other designated alomoonguss breakers. other people have talked about potential counters etc so i won't bother with that, but i just wanted to say that the counters that have been mentioned (lairon, carracosta, whatever) are 100% viable in this metagame and not a detriment to a team. subbu brav's most dangerous facet is honestly its ability to clear the way by heavily weakening / pp stalling regirock for something like swellow or zangoose to come in and clean up later. that's something that's done through good teambuilding / play, not inherent brokenness.

subbu brav and cb brav have different counters. no they don't. set up sr and carry a rock-type not named corsola and bam you've got a solid check for both of them. you also need a rock-type or something similar to deal with like fifteen other threats in the metagame so what makes the necessity of having one so outrageous? cb brav has the issue of being locked into its moves as well as having to deal with sr damage + bb recoil whenever it comes in, limiting its opportunities to be successful. basically if your team is prepared for the metagame, it will be prepared for braviary (and you have plenty of tools to do so without limiting the success of your team).

i don't think braviary is broken

Annoyer

my post in suspect thread

Braviary: Even though Braviary is one of the most versatile and threatening offensive threats in the metagame, Braviary is not broken. A weakness to Stealth Rock hinders each set of it either forcing it to Roost on it SubBU set or limiting its number of switch-ins with its Choiced sets. Constant recoil from Brave Bird wears down Braviary easily and its mediocre speed allows it to be outsped and KOd by common faster Pokemon such as Sawk, Zangoose, or even Ludicolo if Braviary has an Adamant nature or just not invested in Speed. Many Pokemon check Braviary well such as Electric or Rock-types which are on every single team that wants to be effective at dealing with the metagame. Sure, if you can remove its number of checks/counters, you can sweep easily, but that can be said with nearly every Pokemon. SubBU Braviary can't even switch in on what it's supposed to set up on. Offensive teams give no room for Braviary to set up, or even switch in. Its Choiced sets are just as good as before and just as not broken as before.

Braviary's impact on the metagame isn't negative by any means. Sure, it causes changes, but you're supposed to adapt to popular threats. It doesn't make any playstyle such as Stall significantly worse as Stall has found new and effective ways in dealing with it such as Bastiodon or Psyche Up Regirock. Pokemon such as Emboar and Samurott have this same sort of versatility and sweeping potential, and they are not broken. In fact, Braviary brings a higher level of play to NU as it causes prediction with its Choiced sets and makes sure you keep your checks/counters to it at all times, therefore keeping the tier balanced.

Do Not Ban

EBeast

Braviary-

When I originally posted about Braviary I gave its SubBulk Up set a little too much credit and closed my mind as to how it was against other playing styles such as Offense and Stall. Against Offense Braviary doesn't have nearly as much of an open window to do what it wants to freely as powerhouses such as Zangoose, Emboar, Samurott, and even opposing Braviary are always around the corner ready to blast it before it can really get to doing anything. Against Stall Braviary can get the upperhand against most of the Pokemon found in the archetype, however these teams should have ways to stop this such as Psych Up Regirock, Psych Up Metang, Toxic + Power Gem Probopass, and Roar Bastiodon. My main beef with this is that they have to force themselves to use silly moves such as Psych Up to beat Braviary, but I guess this can just be looked at as the essence of metagaming; adapting to beat threats. Against Balance is possibly where SubBU Braviary's best match-up lies; it can use its excellent bulk to set up on the less offensive threats that Balance brings and rain chaos and destruction if played correctly. SubBU Braviary forces Balance teams to play more offensively if they want to prevent it from setting up and shredding through. Even so there are a lot of threats in NU that do this such as Ludicolo, who puts pressure on teams to prevent it from setting up a Rain Dance, or Zangoose, who forces a team to outpredict it and then hit back with priority or a faster threat. Overall Braviary's individual sets each have their strong points and their weak points, but when put together is where I think the main problem arises, and the real reason why it was placed as a suspect.

For example switching Alomomola into a Braviary expecting to tank one of its Scarf or Choice Band attacks, when it then reveals Substitute and you wind up in an awful situation that you will likely not be able to get out of. At the same time, all of this could have been avoided if the player did didn't make assumptions and decided to test the waters beforehand. Samurott shares this trait with Braviary in that if its set is mispredicted it can lead to a possible sweep such as in the situation of switching in Regice expecting a special set and ending up at the wrong side of a SD Samurott sweep. I think that main reason why I initially wanted to ban Braviary was because I didn't take into account that SubBU is as of now a prominent set and that people are expecting it more and will be less careless. SubBU will easily destroy anyone who is careless, however the same applies for a lot of other Pokemon. If you were you to only think of Braviary in the situations where the opponent doesn't even know of SubBU's existence, Braviary will win ever single time. I think now that the tier has gotten a taste of Braviary's new set it has the ability to adapt to it the way it should and already has. (Example being the use of Psych Up)

I already have my position on Braviary's Scarf and Band sets here, but I would like reiterate it quickly. Both sets are excellent and put a lot of pressure on offensive teams who will generally lack switches into Braviary or Pokemon to outspeed it. However both sets share a flaw in that they lack recovery, have a Stealth Rock weakness, and are usually seen taking recoil from Brave Bird. This will usually limit the Choice sets to 5 shots at damaging the enemy at most, however this will usually be less as the recoil from Brave Bird racks up quickly. The Choice Scarf set packs great speed however it misses out on a lot of power in exchange which makes it easier to check or tank its attacks. The Choice Band set is very powerful however since it only has base 80 Speed its not hard to check or revenge kill it. Not to mention that like any Choice user it is placed into a guessing game on what move it should lock itself into. With every team using a Rock-type or other Flying-type resists this pressure is placed on Braviary in every match. This compounded with its Stealth Rock weakness in my opinion make the Choice sets very manageable. This is not to say that Braviary is a bad Pokemon, in fact I think that it is the best Pokemon in NU at the moment, but I feel that as of now it is not an unstoppable force.

Do Not Ban

tenniscake

The post: http://goo.gl/pWgpE

The tl;dr version:

• fancy-ass bullets up in this
• braviary's a great pokemon and has 3 good sets
• too bad there are a ton of checks to it
• it doesn't dominate the tier like a "broken" pokemon, even though it somewhat shapes the metagame
• prediction is an irrelevant argument, since that's simply part of the game
• "it beats stall!!!" is both wrong and a stupid argument, since it neither beats stall, nor should we ban based on the supposed effects of a playstyle
• if you let braviary (or any other mon) set up, you're gonna get boned sooner or later (betting on sooner)
• braviary isn't borke KACAW

AgentDell

For the most part, I will be rephrasing most of what I've already pointed out from the suspect discussion.

The thing about Braviary is that it is one of those Pokemon who can be deemed as unstoppable on paper and is in fact one of, if not the best, Pokemon in the tier right now. When I see a good player utilizing Braviary, it often makes me have that "ugh, should I do this, or should I do that? No clue what to switch to until I figure out what set that it's running....." feeling. The fact that Braviary has useable typing, a huge Attack Stat, a valuable movepool, and surprising bulk and speed allows it to run a number of sets with a variety of ways to turn the tables on the opponent. Should you mispredict what set it's running/what move that it would go for, whether it's going to Brave Bird, Superpower, U-turn, or sets up with the SubBU set, the problem is that one mistake can often mean a disadvantage that leads to a loss of a match.

It's versatility for just a simple dual typing is also a key factor to why it is such a defining force for the metagame, and that greatly limits the number of Pokemon that can claim themselves as potential checks/counters to Braviary. It has a lot going for it with its typing: access to Superpower to break through Rock and Steel types, solid bulk to make use of moves like Roost and Bulk Up, and a massive Attack stat, all of which allows it to potentially get past its traditional checks.

Something that I feel that hasn't really been stressed that much about Braviary is about how it goes by playing its part against specific teams alike. One of the problems that more defensive teams have upon facing Braviary is that they are very hard-pressed upon working around it consistently because of its fantastic coverage and the ability to completely setup and dismantle those specific teams with it's SubBU set with little effort. The problem here lies that they are forced to use a specific Pokemon (or even random moves) in order to make them a non-issue. It forces stall / semi-stall, or even balance, to utilize specific counters to it's initial attacking sets and its Substitute Bulk Up set at the same time to prevent either set from doing serious work to the select teams, and managing around both is very much often easier said than done. While doing so isn't necessarily a bad thing, this is the kind of issue that would severely limit the diversity of the tier, as outside of those options among defensive teams, it can become extremely difficult for balanced/defensive teams to work around Braviary, which makes it such a polarizing force here.

As for offense, while those teams are known to admittedly have an easier time around Braviary in general, Braviary isn't a liability towards those teams either. Even with an average Speed, it sits at a speed tier where it can usually outspeed about 3-4 Pokemon normally, while at the same time its bulk generally allows it to at least take a hit and strike back for the KO. This wouldn't be a problem if it didn't have the ability to break through just about all of their common pivots. So with that being said, likewise for defensive teams, Braviary can also showcase a limiting force towards them as well, and unless you carried some of its generally common shaky switch-ins to it, Braviary will be able to shred though said team if you lacked a secondary resist to its common moves.

Overall, I feel that the offensive-inclined metagame that Braviary has played a significant part upon is evident to why it's unhealthy for the metagame. While more defensive teams are nothing unviable, they are certainly more difficult to utilize and succeed upon building with Braviary in the tier than offensive teams, who normally don't have to worry about it as much, but is still a huge threat to them if they didn't carry the appropriate checks to them, and even then, almost all of them are deemed "shaky" thanks to its coverage that usually allows it to get past them. However, I will agree that Braviary isn't the only reason for these offensive shifts; the BW2 changes weren't the kindest to more defensive teams in general, with things like Heal Bell Musharna and Zangoose being a huge threat to them. For the time being, however, I feel that Braviary is one of, if not, the #1 nightmare towards defensive teams at this point.

I will vote to Ban Braviary, as I feel that banning it would become the better of the the metagame's diversity.

By a vote of 1-10, Braviary will not be banned from the NU metagame (nor will it be suspected any time soon). We will not host another suspect test until significant changes in the metagame occur.

Anyway, this np: thread was a little wonky since Gothitelle came and left and I didn't do anything about the title or post a new np: thread or anything. There will be a new one coming up though, so give me suggestions for songs! :)