Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[gengarsnemisis]

Reguarding Gengar, I think hes solid B tier. He's not really the best at anything he does to be honest. Spin blocking, one can argue that Jellicent is a much at that role with its superior bulk. Yes you can argue that Gengars a better "offesive spinblocker" but is that really enough to make him A tier worthy, I dont think so. It has great immunities yes, but its not usually gonna force something out with those immunities due to his paper thing defenses. Overall I'd say high B tier.

With Hydreigon and Alakazam, Id say they're both solid B tier. Hyderigon Id even argue for A tier because hes honestly the best at what he does. Zam is a great mon right now due to his ability, which allows him to be an emergency revenge killer as well as an amazing late game cleaner. And it really doesn't make much sense to lower them because of Genesect being around due to his most likely upcoming ban, in fact they will actually be much better mons' soon.

Haxorus though I'd say he could go to C tier, but I think that mold breaker can keep him in low B tier. With Kyu-b joining the party I think he really lost one of his niches as strongest outrage, not to mention Kyu's superior stats and bulk. As a D-dacner hes out classed, and as a band user hes outclasses, really I dont see many reasons to use him in this meta.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

I'll check that.
For now, I just want to reply that Jellicant can't also switch on Starmie so I don't get your point.
And between using a Bulky set and being a wall, there is like a BIG gap, I just wanted to say that there was this option and it's viable as Gengar can perfectly tank hits from burned pokemons by Will O Wisp.
Seriously, don't say it's mediocre on offensive team, I'm not sure I read everything next time. I don't know if you say that just to provoc people but that seems the case.
By the way, I'm not even gonna bother check with a calculator, Gengar got 130 Base stat in SpA.. cut the joke. Which special sweeper kills Espeon with no weather to boost his move, a neutral nature, no boosting item? Have fun.
And for Destiny Bond, noone expects it, so don't bring the argument that it was be predicted, it's like obvious that it can be predicted. The point is the % of people that actually predict it. I'm pretty sure this would not be high if we were about to calculate it.

No one expects Destiny Bond? True, but that's like saying Chain Chomp is good because no one expects it. You may surprise someone, but overall, you have better options.

I'm saying it's mediocre on offensive teams because from my experience, it is. Shadow Ball's damage output is pitiful, as my calc has shown. I went ahead and checked up on the moveset statistics, and only 20% of Gengar run Life Orb. 130 base SpA? Sure. Shadow Ball being your strongest STAB, though, isn't so good. Life Orb is needed to boost Shadow Ball to a respectable power level, but even then, you've got a ton of Pokemon with stronger STAB moves.

Another thing is that Gengar relies quite a bit on Focus Blast. Only way to hit Heatran and anything else resistant to Shadow Ball, of which there's quite a bit. Also its best way to hit Terrakion. Do you want to have to rely on a 70% accurate move that has a mere 8 PP, especially on something as frail as Gengar? HP Fire exists, but it's really only doing respectable damage to those 4x weak to it.

 

[thebrownie]

I'll check that.
For now, I just want to reply that Jellicant can't also switch on Starmie so I don't get your point.
.

Uhhh Wrong. 252/252 Jellicent can totally switch into starmie, provided it doesn't use thunder. Jellicent takes like 45% from a LO thunderbolt. Even if Jellicent loses 1v1 vs starmie you can just revenge kill.

252SpAtk Life Orb Starmie (+SAtk) Thunderbolt vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Water Absorb Jellicent (+SpDef): 43% - 50% (174 - 204 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

 

[Schpoonman]

Uhhh Wrong. 252/252 Jellicent can totally switch into starmie, provided it doesn't use thunder. Jellicent takes like 45% from a LO thunderbolt. Even if Jellicent loses 1v1 vs starmie you can just revenge kill.

252SpAtk Life Orb Starmie (+SAtk) Thunderbolt vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Water Absorb Jellicent (+SpDef): 43% - 50% (174 - 204 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

This. Nobody runs Starmie on Rain teams anyway, so unless you're running a rain team with Jellicent and your opponent carries Starmie with Thunder specifically for rain teams, Starmie gets dumped on.

0SpAtk Jellicent (Neutral) Shadow Ball vs 4HP/0SpDef Starmie (Neutral): 66% - 78% (174 - 206 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

 

[alexwolf]

Whenever i build a team that relies a lot on Starmie to spin in order to function i allways make sure that Starmie can get past Jellicent, which is not difficult at all. LO Starmie with Thunderbolt does 53.59 - 63.27% to standard Jelly, a guaranteed 2HKO w/o SR. And Starmie is really good on rain teams, both offensive and balanced. In many of my rain teams i use a fat Starmie with enough SpA EVs to 2HKO Jellicent with Thunder. With 124 SpA EVs LO-less Starmie always 2HKOs Jellicent after SR (46.65 - 55.08%).

The point is that if one relies a lot on Starmie's rapid spinning it would be silly to not make it able to get past Jellicent when it can easily do so.

 

[thebrownie]

Wait so with rocks a layer of spikes and life orb damage Jellicent 1hkos Starmie with shadow ball and keeps hazards up, without recovery stall? That's broken as fuck. :P

LO Starmie with Thunderbolt does 53.59 - 63.27% to standard Jelly

I'm pretty sure if you mean standard jellicent as the non-max (or 220 spd) jellicent, anyone who runs that to spinblock starmie is going to have a bad time. My calculations are using a Modest Starmie, a timid does 39% - 47%.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

A Jellicent with a Specially Defensive set can, in fact, shrug off Starmie's Thunderbolt (even when boosted by Life Orb) and can stall out it with a combination of Will-O-Wisp and Recover. It's a shame that Thunder will still 2HKO, but... nothing in this world is perfect. But the specially defensive set is not the standard anyway.

 

[Spyro]

Hydreigon is a great Poke, people just don't use it much. It has some distinct advantages over Latios. It may be slower but it has acess to Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Earth Power, Superpower, Work Up, and acess to the strongest viable Draco Meteor in the game. Latios is not going to be running a Modest Nature, which Hydreigon does just fine as Timid doesn't offer many distinct advantages. Hydreigon doesn't need to be walled by Jirachi or other bulky special walls like Blissey thanks to Fire Blast and Flamethrower. It is not helpless to Genesect as Genesect is not going to be coming into any move from Hydreigon aside from Dark Pulse or Earth Power that will do less than 50% to it. Hydreigon is an awesome Pokemon who is sadly overshadowed by Latios. It has some flaws though like that weakness to virtually all priority that is commonly seen. But overall it really is a solid choice for teams that often gets overlooked a lot for the faster choices like Latias and Latios. Hydreigon getting Roost and Superpower gave him even more viability as it can now break stall up pretty easily while still staying Healthy. Hydreigon also has access to U-Turn to gain momentum which is just another amazing choice. I would argue Hydreigon for A Rank, but that's for another post.

Hydreigon is also not weak to pursuit like Lati@s.

 

[Sam]

What's so good about Gengar is it's ability to set up substitute with ease. This is due to not only it's useful resistances and immunities, but offensive prowess as well. Gengar can force a lot of switches, whether it be due to something like a Terrakion locked in to CC, or forcing out a slower mon (and being base 110 in speed, Gengar will outspeed a lot). I'm personally a fan of the sub + 3 attack set, with HP Fire being the third attack. It destroys Scizors switching in to the sub, as well as Forry, and is a solid 2HKO on Ferro outside of rain. Not many things are going to enjoy facing off against a gengar, because if they can outspeed it is likely that they are not going to enjoy a Shadow Ball or whatever hits them hardest (or they are scarfed, in which case you can simply switch out after your sub is broken knowing what move they are locked in to)

Spinblocking is merely another boon to Gengar's usefulness. It really shouldn't be its primary purpose on the team, but it allows it to switch in to some spinners that can't really hit it hard (Forry lacking Gyro Ball, Donphan namely) and force them out, allowing another substitute to be put up. Again, the ease with which it can set up subs and hit pretty hard behind them is what makes Gengar so good. I'm not going to argue it's tier placing, but it's certainly not the worthless thing some people seem to make it out to be.

 

[SJCrew]

A-tier is no good for Gengar. Mediocre offensive Pokemon, mediocre spinblocker. It's more of a 'disruptor' in offensive strategies. Once it finds the right thing to come in on, it can set up a sub and start annoying you. However, this doesn't matter if a hard counter like Specially Defensive Jirachi or Scizor shows up.

One thing people aren't pointing out about Starmie spinblocking Jellicent: even if it predicts correctly, the 2HKO means Jelly can switch out into a check and recover when it gets another opportunity. No spin. Switching Gengar into Starmie is simply death fodder. Scarf Gengar is so horrible, please don't tell me we're talking about this.

Don't suggest arbitrary tiers for Pokemon you like, look at their company to see if they really belong there. A-tier Pokemon: awesome sweepers with great STABs. Salamence, Dragonite, Keldeo, TORNADUS FUCKING-T. Gengar is no competition whatsoever. It doesn't threaten much and it's overly reliant on Substitute due to its poor defenses and Pursuit (Scizor) weakness. Even B-tier gives it heavy competition.

 

[Sam]

On another note, I'm going to ask: What is Bronzong doing in B-Tier? It's pretty mediocre as a support mon - is can set up screens and rocks, but that's about it. It can't switch in to neutral attacks very well if they're coming off a decently powerful STAB, has no recovery, and no offensive presence at all. It can only hit so much between HP Ice, Gyro Ball, and EQ (of which you aren't even going to be able to run all of them if you want screens). It's in the same tier as defensive/support mons like Skarm and Tentacruel, which are generally much more valuable to a team. Thoughts on moving Bronzong down a tier to C? (I feel like B tier is a bit too crowded in general, best to work it out one at a time though)

 

[SJCrew]

While we're on the subject of non-OU tiers, I'd like to discuss other Chloro sweepers. Sawsbuck, Lilligant and Shiftry for C-tier? Saws and Shiftry have terrible defenses and are ruined by most priority, but they're threatening offensive Pokemon with peerless coverage. Lilligant is a good utility Pokemon that was seen on a handful of successful Sun teams over the course of BW.

I've used Tangrowth in the past, but I'm not sure if it is even viable now. Someone more experienced with him can pick up the slack there.

 

[FaceFaceFace]

ScarfGar isn't actually all that bad; and it works quite well after Deo-D gets some Hazards in.

Being Pursuit weak kinda sucks, but Scizor dies if you have a Zone; and Tyranitar is usually set-up bait for yours truly S-Tier Musketeer.

It is a bit of a pity that Shadow Ball is the strongest STAB 'Gar has at 130 SpA, though.
Not being able to learn Ice Beam/Flamethrower kinda sucks, too. If Gar could learn those, or got a 100/120 base power STAB move, then he may very well be A. But for now, I think B is fair.

 

[Myzozoa]

Gengar is fantastic, the Disable set gets tons free turns simply because most pokemon only have one move that can break it's substitute or threaten it. U-turns can't break your substitute, so offensive teams are forced to sacrifice every time it comes in. I'm surprised you wouldn't rate it above Thundurus-t, for example, it has massive amounts of utility, and though it is frail, it can still take an unboosted STAB hit from the special side very easily. It blocks spin from everything but Starmie if you can get it in. Disable Tentacruel's Scald and you should be able to force it out if you can get a Sp.D drop which is not unthinkable. It is very much an anti-metagame pokemon as it outspeed Lati@s with HP Fire, and can just force so much shit to switch out.

 

[AQuantumLeaf]

- Noone of the sweepers you quoted got the third of Gengar's versatility. Sure they throw big stabs, pewpew.
- They don't hit harder at all. Gengar is faster than any of these pokemons bar Tornadus fucking T, got higher offensive base stat than any of these pokemons bar Dragonite. The only reason I believe that makes you totally deny its offensive strengh is that you rarely saw a sweeping Gengar or that you never used it to check by yourself.

Here's the issue: Gengar's only viable STAB attack is Shadow Ball, which has 80 base power.

By comparison, Keldeo's best STAB move, Hydro Pump, has 120 base power, 50% more than shadow ball -- that's the difference between choice specs and no choice specs (though I concede that it's accuracy is an issue, on average it still is far better than Shadow Ball -- or even surf). And if the primary STAB doesn't cut it for Keldeo, it has Secret Sword to fall back on, an 85 base power Fighting-type psyshock, which after the STAB bonus is slightly more powerful than Gentar's focus blast.

 

[Tobes]

Hi this thread got really shitty really fast but I'm too sleepy to fix it atm. Locking for now

 

[Pocket]

Unlocking.

Remedy, do not incessantly post after every opposition people write. It's an annoying posting habit that turns threads to shit.

The points for Gengar have been said, so there is nothing else you can do.

As for other Pokemon's tiering placement, I cannot support Kyurem-B in A rank. It's simply not that good. It may be odd to stick KyuB in the same rank as Kyurem, but they share similar flaws that restricts them to a similar extent. Terrible Ice-typing coupled with meddling Speed. Kyurem-B is like a Darmanitan; its immense power is squandered by its typing and subpar Speed. Darmanitan can still manage to break teams with its Scarf Set on a Sun team, but Kyu-B does not have such luxurious support.

Kyu-B to me falls in the same category as Haxorus / Hydreigon than Garchomp / Salamence. It just has 0 sweeping potential. Haxorus has less special bulk than Kyu-B, but it has Dragon Dance, Superpower, Aqua Tail, Swords Dance, Earthquake and better physical bulk thanks to its typing (it takes Bullet Punch & Close Combat much better than Kyurem-B iirc). Hydreigon has access to Fire Blast & Earthquake, making it easier to bust through Steel-types, as well as not being so hazards weak like Kyurem-Black. Kyu-B can't even abuse its best appeal in its herculean Outrage, because it is so vulnerable to revenge-kills. It just leaves way too many openings for my liking. I see no justifications for Kyu-B's A rank. Should be dropped to B, imo.

 

[Tobes]

Just deleted a few posts in an attempt to get this thread back on track. If your post was deleted consider yourself on watch. Step out of line again and it'll earn you an infraction.

And now to establish some guidelines for discussion in this thread:

- Don't be overly aggressive or vehement in your arguments. It draws the thread into too much petty bickering.
- Don't insult someone else's intelligence. Be civil in pointing out when somebody's metagame understanding is lacking, and don't be condescending about it.
- Know your facts. If you're about to post something double-check that everything you're saying holds up to scrutiny. Don't be lazy and say "I'll calc this later".

 

[Tressed]

As for other Pokemon's tiering placement, I cannot support Kyurem-B in A rank. It's simply not that good. It may be odd to stick KyuB in the same rank as Kyurem, but they share similar flaws that restricts them to a similar extent. Terrible Ice-typing coupled with meddling Speed. Kyurem-B is like a Darmanitan; its immense power is squandered by its typing and subpar Speed. Darmanitan can still manage to break teams with its Scarf Set on a Sun team, but Kyu-B does not have such luxurious support.

Kyu-B to me falls in the same category as Haxorus / Hydreigon than Garchomp / Salamence. It just has 0 sweeping potential. Haxorus has less special bulk than Kyu-B, but it has Dragon Dance, Superpower, Aqua Tail, Swords Dance, Earthquake and better physical bulk thanks to its typing (it takes Bullet Punch & Close Combat much better than Kyurem-B iirc). Hydreigon has access to Fire Blast & Earthquake, making it easier to bust through Steel-types, as well as not being so hazards weak like Kyurem-Black. Kyu-B can't even abuse its best appeal in its herculean Outrage, because it is so vulnerable to revenge-kills. It just leaves way too many openings for my liking. I see no justifications for Kyu-B's A rank. Should be dropped to B, imo.

I second this. If Kyurem-B had a faster Speed tier, we would see no problems like this. However, at 95 Kyurem-B gets outrun by a ton of threats, which forces it to switch out, which forces entry hazard damage, which Kyurem is weak to.... Don't get me wrong, its good, but it isn't A-Rank, its Speed and typing make sure of that.

 

[Deluks917]

Is Deo-D still consensus S-rank?

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

I second this. If Kyurem-B had a faster Speed tier, we would see no problems like this. However, at 95 Kyurem-B gets outrun by a ton of threats, which forces it to switch out, which forces entry hazard damage, which Kyurem is weak to.... Don't get me wrong, its good, but it isn't A-Rank, its Speed and typing make sure of that.

Support. Insane power doesn't mean much when you has a terrible typing (defensively, and offensively Dragon/Ice is redundant), middling speed and shallow movepool. STAB Outrage from a 170 base attack is so appealing... but when you see Kyurem-B's drawbacks, you actually start to get away from it in lieu of other, less powerful but faster Dragons that have better typing. So, it's a B-Tier pokémon easily. Kyurem-B's potential lies on wall/stallbreaking, but defensive teams aren't so common to justify this usage, and even then Kyurem-B faces competition as a stallbreaker with a lot of things, such as mixed Salamence, Mew and SubCM Jirachi. Kyurem-B may be a good choice if you still have problems with stall/defensive teams, but as Pocket said it's not going to sweep anytime soon.

 

[Shadowmence]

Is Deo-D still consensus S-rank?

Yeah.

Honestly pretty much any other lead is pointless. They can all be countered easily thanks to team preview. Deo-D is stupidly bulky and can be unpredictable. even with team preview you can't really get around it. The thing is just amazing. It can get a layer of hazards up 99% of the time, especially if you decide to sash it. I don't think I'll ever use another lead

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Yeah.

Honestly pretty much any other lead is pointless. They can all be countered easily thanks to team preview. Deo-D is stupidly bulky and can be unpredictable. even with team preview you can't really get around it. The thing is just amazing. It can get a layer of hazards up 99% of the time, especially if you decide to sash it. I don't think I'll even use another lead

The only common thing that can OHKO Deoxys-D is Genesect, and even then it's only certain sets, and depends from where you put that 4 leftover EVs. Bug Buzz if you put on Defense, and U-Turn if you put on Special Defense. You shouldn't actually use Focus Sash, as apart from the attacks that I said, very few things can OHKO a full-health Deoxys-D. There are better items to use, such as Mental Herb, Rocky Helmet, Leftovers or even Life Orb.

The only other "true" lead is Genesect, as a good (but not that good) speed and coverage means that it can actually beat a lot of common leads.

 

[Shadowmence]

The only common thing that can OHKO Deoxys-D is Genesect, and even then it's only certain sets, and depends from where you put that 4 leftover EVs. Bug Buzz if you put on Defense, and U-Turn if you put on Special Defense. You shouldn't actually use Focus Sash, as apart from the attacks that I said, very few things can OHKO a full-health Deoxys-D. There are better items to use, such as Mental Herb, Rocky Helmet, Leftovers or even Life Orb.

The only other "true" lead is Genesect, as a good (but not that good) speed and coverage means that it can actually beat a lot of common leads.

Life Orb? Where the fuck did that come from? Who uses Deo-D as an attacker?

 

[alkinesthetase]

^ back in the days before deoxys became so standard that it had to anti-lead itself, the usual HO deoxys was something like rocks/spikes/psychoboost/second attack modest @ LO. the attacks were used to murder the spinners on opposing balance/offense teams when they were lured in by the hazards. tbolt for starmie, hp fire for forry, superpower for ttars looking to get out a crunch, and psycho boost kills everything else. you needed LO back then for the extra power. once the spinner was nuked deoxys could resume setting up hazards, and the rest of the team exerted enough pressure that the spinner could not come in repeatedly and even attempt to pull a spin off

that was a fair time ago though; nowadays deo needs stuff like taunt and twave and magic coat to beat other standard leads, so those suicide attacking sets are pretty rare in comparison