BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[alamaster]

I think its faster than ever. Scarf Keldeo is everywhere, Scarf Gengar/Latios are occasionally seen because they outspeed the whole tier, and there's a ton of Rock Polish pokemon such as Landorus, Terrakion (who is Scarfed a lot as well), Genesect, Landorus-T, Agility Thundurus-T, etc. There's a lot of pokemon with 300+ speed used as well.

 

[gengarsnemisis]

Look in BW1, we had all kinds of bulk up users and calm mind, now both of those have died, due to the speed of this meta.

 

[NoUserName]

Look in BW1, we had all kinds of bulk up users and calm mind, now both of those have died, due to the speed of this meta.

IIRC in BW1 we didn't have a lot of common pokemon that used BU or CM, only Reuniclus, Latias, Conkeldurr and Virizion were common BU/CM.

 

[gengarsnemisis]

IIRC in BW1 we didn't have a lot of common pokemon that used BU or CM, only Reuniclus, Conkeldurr and Virizion were common BU/CM.

Well aslo breloom, and look what happened to them all, reuniclus is better off with tr set now, conk is at the bottom of the barrell of ou, and virizon sucks. My point is that you just need speed in this meta bulk/power and low speed doesnt cut it.

 

[Turtle Soup]

I agree with that notion that BW2 metagames is yet the fastest. A lot of team run 2 scarfers, almost all offensive pokes run +speed natures most commonly, the successful set up sweepers are the ones with speed boosting abilities, HO teams are common, Weather team are also usually offensive, defensive and stall teams are quite rare.
It's like the whole metagame is at a rave snorting speed.

 

[NoUserName]

I don't think Breloom BU was too common. Virizion faces an unkind metagame with Gene and Tornadus-T which regenerates the damage of rocks.

Well the low speed... Virizion is very fast, but lacks offensively when not boosted, because that, suffers in the current metagame.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

I disagree with the notion that the metagame has become less speedy, although I must agree that some scarfers simply disappeared. Rotom-W is an example; nowadays it is mostly used as a check to Tornadus-I... Not to mention Landorus-I, which was before commonly used as a revenge killer on sandstorm teams, but nowadays is mostly used as a special attacker. While it's true that special attacking sets can be used on ANY team (unlike physical ones that while stronger than special sets, don't have potential outside sansdstorm teams), the special attacker set is pratically overshadowing the Scarf set even on sandstorm teams.

It's like Pokémon that commonly used Scarf before are now using more sweeping- or tanking-inclined sets. Not that this is a bad thing, of course...

 

[Lavos]

Is it just me or has the meta game slowed down since bw1.
less scarf landorus, latios, more LO. scarf rotom is almost extinct.

The metagame has certainly gotten much faster since the release of BW2. Base 101 Speed Scarfer Landorus has been replaced by Base 108 Speed Scarfer Keldeo, now the most common Choice Scarf user (that's right, it's not Genesect), and the metagame has actually seen an increase since BW1 of Scarf Latios, etc., since Scizor and Tyranitar are now much less commonly seen. Sure, it's true that Scarf Rotom-W isn't a thing anymore, but that's just because there are much better Scarf options available (read: Genesect) to check things that Rotom-W used to check back in the days of BW1. The metagame has gotten faster; that's the main reason you even get to use Garchomp in OU now, it's outpaced by all the faster stuff running around BW2.

 

[StarmanXL]

While I haven't really been playing this metagame for long, I'll agree that using a slow-ish team is kinda...difficult. Even with middling speed it seems hard to keep from something faster finding one opportunity to run you over. Priority is nice but it doesn't always seem to cut it, and on some pokemon like Breloom you have to choose between priority and actually being able to live more than two turns. I'm actually starting to wonder if I should change my SubPunch Breloom to like a Sub+Mach Punch+Lefties one or something.

 

[Lavos]

StarmanXL, try this:

Breloom @ Life Orb
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Spore
- Focus Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch

Spore something, Focus Punch when they switch to their Breloom check (i.e. Tornadus-T, Latios, etc.), finish off the check with Mach Punch. Bullet Seed for STAB and coverage. This set makes the best use of Breloom's absurdly powerful Technician-boosted Mach Punch while also taking advantage of the fact that nobody prepares for SubPunch Breloom anymore. This hybrid set can really shit on teams. Thanks to King for posting it.

 

[StarmanXL]

StarmanXL, try this:



Spore something, Focus Punch when they switch to their Breloom check (i.e. Tornadus-T, Latios, etc.), finish off the check with Mach Punch. Bullet Seed for STAB and coverage. This set makes the best use of Breloom's absurdly powerful Technician-boosted Mach Punch while also taking advantage of the fact that nobody prepares for SubPunch Breloom anymore. This hybrid set can really shit on teams. Thanks to King for posting it.

I'm not sure if people don't prepare for SubPunch breloom anymore, or if there are just naturally a lot of checks to it (Gliscor all day erry day) but I'll give it a shot, see how it works.

I've also not been seeing a whole helluva lotta dragons, with the exception of Latios on rain teams. Is this also indicative of the fast pace of the metagame and RP genesect everywhere?

 

[Lavos]

I'm not sure if people don't prepare for SubPunch breloom anymore, or if there are just naturally a lot of checks to it (Gliscor all day erry day) but I'll give it a shot, see how it works.

I've also not been seeing a whole helluva lotta dragons, with the exception of Latios on rain teams. Is this also indicative of the fast pace of the metagame and RP genesect everywhere?

Gliscor isn't used much anymore, since the metagame is so fast-paced and offense. It's been replaced by Landorus-T, who also gets the benefit of Intimidate to sponge physical attacks. However, even those aren't very common.

Yeah, Dragons usage is dying down a lot as well. The only two you really see a lot anymore are Latios and Latias, particularly the latter, which is used as a Life Orb Tank set to eat up the all-too-common Rain-boosted Scarf Keldeo Hydro Pumps. Stuff like Dragonite and Salamence aren't too common anymore, because DDnite is easily revenged by any common Scarfer, and ScarfMence is outsped and OHKO'd by Scarf Keldeo's Hidden Power Ice. I think you're right, the drop in Dragons usage is indicative of the fast pace of the metagame.

 

[StarmanXL]

Gliscor isn't used much anymore, since the metagame is so fast-paced and offense. It's been replaced by Landorus-T, who also gets the benefit of Intimidate to sponge physical attacks. However, even those aren't very common.

Yeah, Dragons usage is dying down a lot as well. The only two you really see a lot anymore are Latios and Latias, particularly the latter, which is used as a Life Orb Tank set to eat up the all-too-common Rain-boosted Scarf Keldeo Hydro Pumps. Stuff like Dragonite and Salamence aren't too common anymore, because DDnite is easily revenged by any common Scarfer, and ScarfMence is outsped and OHKO'd by Scarf Keldeo's Hidden Power Ice. I think you're right, the drop in Dragons usage is indicative of the fast pace of the metagame.

Really? I tend to see Gliscors like once every 3 matches, but then again I am consistently at the bottom of the ladder. You'd think with the game getting faster you'd see a slight resurgence in Trick Room (not a lot, mind you, just a tiny little, maybe more TR Reuniclus) or at the very least a lot more Twave spam.

 

[Gary]

Look in BW1, we had all kinds of bulk up users and calm mind, now both of those have died, due to the speed of this meta.

Calm Mind Latias seems to be doing just fine in this meta, however Reuniclus is a little harder off. Genesect has really halted their viability due to his extremely powerful +1 STAB U-Turns, however if Genesect ends up getting banned then Calm Mind Latias, Latios, and Reuniclus will probably see a spike in usage. I use Sub Calm Mind Latias, because it can take a U-Turn if need by, while being able to get a free turn to set up. Reuniclus is just too slow, and can't even out speed Scizor to take it out if it carries HP Fire. Still, Reuniclus is a terror to unprepared teams, especially the TR variant.

 

[trg]

What's everyone's opinion on choice scarf Ditto in this metagame?

I've currently been working on a bulky offensive team with a lot of success (nearly got into the 1800's the other day) but I almost always get run through by fast set up sweepers like RP Genesect and Landorus once my main counter for them is gone... I was thinking a choice scarf Ditto would really help with those issues.

 

[SpecsX]

It's ok, but gene is a better revenge killer usually, although against RP gene it might help you.

Hopefully Genesect will be banned soon though.

 

[StarmanXL]

This might be a bit of a random question, but does Dugtrio do much of anything other than take out Heatran and Ninetales for Genesect? I only ask because, well, the ones I keep running into don't seem to do much outside of that. Granted, this is probably because I don't really get to high-ladder play, but I'm just having trouble seeing what else it does. Same goes for Magnezone, which I tried running on another team but it would up just being more trouble than it was worth.

Do people regularly run trappers for other pokemon in this metagame? Outside of the occaisional BP chain I haven't seen much other uses of them.

 

[Turtle Soup]

Dugtrio can trap the enemies weather inducer and then proceed to win the weather war in one fell swoop and Magnezone is used in that thing with dragon...the name doesn't come to my mind.

 

[Deluks917]

StarmanXL: Goth traps tons of problematic pokemon for rain teams (hippowdon, quagsire, blissey, gastrodon, tyranitar, jelicent (this is tricky), chansey, etc).

 

[Lady Alex]

This might be a bit of a random question, but does Dugtrio do much of anything other than take out Heatran and Ninetales for Genesect? I only ask because, well, the ones I keep running into don't seem to do much outside of that. Granted, this is probably because I don't really get to high-ladder play, but I'm just having trouble seeing what else it does. Same goes for Magnezone, which I tried running on another team but it would up just being more trouble than it was worth.

Do people regularly run trappers for other pokemon in this metagame? Outside of the occaisional BP chain I haven't seen much other uses of them.

Yes, dugtrio has more uses than just checking Heatran, Ninetales, and Tyranitar. It's a good check to both Volcarona and Terrakion, and, if you're playing against a team where some of these threats are already gone or simply not present, it can be used as a last ditch effort to cripple an opponent's sweeper with Memento.

As the above poster said, Gothitelle works really well for trapping several walls. Wobbuffet isn't that common because it has a hard time coming in on anything but walls, and doesn't even deal with them as well as Gothitelle. It does have the advantage of having encore, so it does still have a niche.

Trappers can't trap baton passers btw.

 

[StarmanXL]

I see. I guess I was just getting a skewed perspective because of the kind of team I run--by the way, I know trappers can't trap BP users, I meant that the BP teams were using trappers with memento to shut down enemies (I swear I played a Latios/Dugtrio/Diglett/Gothitelle/Scizor/Garchomp team once, it was...something else).

 

[Lady Alex]

That's not a bp chain lol. BP chains are so constricted for team slots that they can't afford to use trappers, and none of the trappers learn baton pass anyway. Just for giggles, though, even if BP chains did have room for a trapper, Gothitelle, Wobbuffet, Dugtrio, and Magnezone all fail to deal with some of the pokemon that give the playstyle the most trouble, such as Sableye and Tornadus-T.

 

[StarmanXL]

Oh man, Sableye is a huge pain in the ass lately, if only because of that priority WoW and Taunt. I must say, though, I find it kinda interesting that a decent amount of RU, UU, and BL pokemon seem to be showing up more (Sableye, Gothitelle, Slowbro, Amoongus, Victini). Granted, they're not showing up a whole helluva lot, but enough where I've at least noticed it. I'd imagine they're quite niche, though, so I'm unsure if they'll ever gain enough usage to move up tiers.

 

[Lady Alex]

If Genesect gets banned, I could see a potential increase in Gothitelle and Amoongus usage. Amoongus is one of the best Keldeo counters and checks Terrakion reasonable well. Scizor usage will rise, allowing gothitelle to trap it if she predicts the switch. She'll also work really well with Scizor, trapping the Tentacruel and Skarmory who frequently switch in to soak Scizor's u-turns.

 

[SJCrew]

I think Tornadus-T is a bigger disincentive for Amoonguss usage than Genesect. Genesect doesn't get free turns on Amoonguss, since Amoonguss can tank any one of its moves while it is healthy and hit the switch-in with a status attack or wear them down with weak Giga Drain/Hidden Power damage before switching out.

Amoonguss has a lot of other problems too: it gives free turns to Ferrothorn under Rain to set up Spikes and free turns to Heatran to annoy things with Lava Plume burns and Toxic + Protect. Heatran is immensely difficult to switch into these days, so you'll want to avoid anything that gives it free turns without any sort of fight whatsoever.

Another thing to note about is that while Amoonguss is bulky, it is simply not a good general purpose wall. It cannot switch into Dragons at all and some of them can even use it for set up bait. Even using Amoonguss now, I find myself having to slap on Mamoswine to check Heatran/Dragons without losing offensive momentum (keeping in mind it cannot switch in either). 114/70/80 defenses are not good enough to take powerful neutral attacks in OU, even with investment.

Amoonguss usage will most likely stay where it is because even with its niche qualities, it is still a very limited Pokemon that does not fit on just any team. It can only check a handful of things and will often open you up to several more.