All Gens The Most Dominant Pokemon in History - #9-10 Position Debate

[Timmyfuu]

I almost completely agree with Jorgen. like underline ALMOST. See like, when I played RBY as a kid, there was no such thing as entry hazards. Now I am fully aware they exist and there's a lot of teams based around them. That being said, Fort has changed the game of pokemon in a way since it is the best entry layer. He spins, he spikes, he stealth rocks, he toxic spikes.

But best of all guys ... Fort blows up after his job is done too. And it's not even like he blows up like a normal pokemon. When fort blows, up he is almost certain to take something with it. How cool is that? But all jokes aside I think entry hazards are just a little more game changing than walling an attack. for this reason I think fort should have a spot above blissey.

Other than that I'd say I completely agree with jorgen, props bro.

 

[Timmyfuu]

I've only really played pokemon in DPP and BW to be honest, so i'm not sure what my opinion is worth but!

I think the #10 spot should go to Celebi. As much as I really don't like legendary pokemon, this list isn't about pokemon I like. Celebi is good in all generations it's been in. Not only that but i'll grow a set of balls and say that being banned in GSC should actually say something about it. From what I understand, being banned meant that celebi was so good that it was almost considered cheating. I'd say that made celebi pretty dominant in GSC.

Don't get me wrong, being banned in in GSC still means it was basically missing in that generation. Any arguments it's banning aside, celebi is a fantastic pokemon and I'd give it #10. soooo My final virdict is:

#8 Fort
#9 Bliss
10 Celebi

 

[Bent1ey]

Any place for Gyarados?

 

[Borat]

Nope.

 

[Hemp Man]

Gyarados didn't really come into his own until Gen 3, in RBY/GSC other Pokemon can do his job better.

 

[Phazon00]

I think Suicune was a consensus for #7, that much is obvious.

 

[Crystal_]

Yeah I think Suicune should be #7 too.

Also Jellicent, could you edit the OP with the top 6 pokemon that have already been agreed? I think it'd be helpful if we'd like to keep up with this project, especially considering it's been more than a month.

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1) Snorlax
2) Tyranitar
3) Zapdos
4) Gengar
5) Starmie
6) Skarmory
7)
8)
9)
10)

 

[Jellicent]

Alright, we've just got the final 4 to figure out.

Reading things over, I'd say Jirachi, Suicune, Blissey, Celebi, and Forretress (not necessarily in that order, though that's the one I'd learn towards [sorry Forry ;-;]) have the most weight behind them, both in consistency and the arguments backing them up. There's certainly room for other threats, granted. No matter how we wrap this up, let's wrap it up~

 

[M Dragon]

Suicune >> Skarm for the reasons I said before.
How can Jirachi be even considered lol, it doesnt exist in RBY and GSC and its worse than Salamence (for example) in ADV + DP.
Celebi is in the same case, if we consider him uber in GSC (although it was #3 best mon in ADV though, but not that good in DP)

 

[Jorgen]

I'm okay with Suicune at #7. Monstrous in ADV, solid in DPP, and a classic stall mon in GSC (even if, imo, it is somewhat mediocre in GSC nowadays). Skarm is definitely more niche, and nothing else really comes close imo.

EDIT: Oh so Skarm's already been decided. Was wondering why Jellicent didn't have it in the list. That'll teach me to read OPs, I guess.

 

[Phazon00]

Jeez people, stop talking about Skarmory. It is already decided that it is at #6. No more debate.

 

[Oiawesome]

My personal list would be
7)Celebi
8)Latias(Really shaky)
I know thats not a full list but thats all I could come up to now my explinations:Celebi was the single most dominant nonsnorlax pokemon in GSC it FORCED you to play its games or you were done.This little farie was so so dominant that it forced the GSC metagame to be Celebi ,if you didnt use Celebi in GSC, You needed to go to a mental hospital seriously,that thing was so good that it made the metagame into its own play house,while it was not banned of course.Of course it was not super dominant in ADV but it was AMAZING defensivly it was un matched.Oh you can CM,suicune?Celebi has recover,status immunity,Leech seed immunity,Heal bell,Leech seed,Calm Mind itself,and Steller typing especialy to combat things like bulky waters,weezing,offensive non DDtar and etc. It had a edge over nearly evrey defensive pokemon and in DPP It was flat while nearly evreything got a new toy for the majority of DPP celebi was very mediocore even with the new SR,U-turn,And Leaf Storm,Psychic STAB wasent very good in OU that much anymore AND Tyranitar finnaly got Physical Dark STAB and the SS buff,it also had to play in a scizor meta during the end. until one day,it got NP It wasent game breaking but it was Celebi was wishing to Jirachi for,a new toy and new niche.Celebi was the now overall bulkiest user of NP tying with only mew who was perma uber Im sure. Overall Celebi's dominance was not HUGE but it ceartinly deserving of #7.

Lets get to the big fish latias,While it was OU for a short time in one gen,It was THAT dominant,In that short time the OU metagame literaly had LATIAS carved onto it.Their was even a Smog article about Latiases dominance!(Search Smogon:Latias,A history of) It made the metagame centerd around its checks and itslef,It turned into a "Pack as many steels as possible meta"AKA The infamous 3Dragon3Steel Metagame.If literaly making the metagame yours isnt utter dominance,I dont know what is.

ALSO being good in a metagame =/= dominance.To be dominant you need to be the face of a metagame.Like suicune for example :It was NOT dominant,While it was certinly good,it never was the face of any catagory in a meta or a meta in general,Bulky Waters:Faced competition from Blastoise and TANKPert and Empoleon wich were all good in their own right.Defensive Pokemon in general:Celebi and stuff like Blissey and Skarm wayyyyy outclass it as they all have things like reliable recover,hazards(Blissey and Celebi get SR and Skarm gets SR and spikes) and also Celebi is a solid Suicune counter and does things better than sui. In general.CMER:Many pokes,From the offensive side things like Alakazam,Latias(During its breif time) etc. On the defensive stuff like Jirachi and Celebi etc. Offensive Water Type:Starmie just stops it from bieng the dominant offensive water with its deadly speed,moveppol,SPa,Recover,Natural cure(Status is annoying),Psychic typing,and more "solid" base stats.And sui never really dominated any meta.

 

[M Dragon]

#6 and #7 are for Skarm + Suicune (I still think Suicune > Skarm though, Suicune is the #2 best mon in ADV)

#8 Bliss, #9 Dragonite, #10 Celebi maybe.

 

[Reymedy]

#7 Celebi (GSC fine among the rare Ubers, an ADV S tier, a good DPP/BW pokemon)
#8 Suicune (fine in GSC, ADV S tier, good DPP pokemon, outclassed in BW)
#9 Blissey (would be among the top3 if we combinate Chansey+Blissey influence, good in GSC, A tier ADV, good in DPP, decent in BW)
#10 Forretress (didn't know really what to put but since he's good in GSC, fine in ADV, fine in DPP and fine in BW.. well why not)




Else :
My top would be like =>

Hide

#1 Starmie / Gengar

#3 Snorlax
#4 Tyranitar
#5 Zapdos
#6 Celebi / Suicune
#8 Blissey
#9 Forretress
#10 Skarmory

I think Skarmory has been overrated badly :p

Gengar and Starmie for obvious reasons. I consider Gengar as the best non Uber pokemon of ADV (this is my opinion that's all), a pretty good pokemon in RBY for the reasons stated before (sleep, ghost typing, speed) etc. Starmies has been good like always but I can't make up my mind on this point, maybe a SLIGHT advantage for Starmie.. but the fact that Gengar is the first Ghost.. and was the first and only ghost at the start makes me think that he shouldn't be so underestimated.

Snorlax for obvious reasons, but even without his "fall" in the latest generation, he wouldn't be #1 to me.

Tyranitar for obvious reasons, but he has 1 generation delay.

Zapdos is a less important Snorlax to me, but for sure a really good pokemon that would tie/get beaten by Celebi and Suicune if he wasn't here since GEN1.

Celebi Suicune are almost the same to me, the point that Celebi was Uber at first, and Suicune UU now make me think about a tie. I think Celebi wins ADV, but loses DPP. Simply because Celebi faces 0 competition in ADV for the spot of the bulky Grass mon, few for Heal Bell, fewer for Baton Passing (I'm not thinking about a full chain, mainly about the Celebi+Trap powerful core), almost 0 for Perish Song, almost 0 for Leech Seed.. Suicune is just less versatile, I'm not talking about the strengh since Suicune is probably stronger as CM user and sweeper, but Celebi can make tons of things.

The rest for all the reasons I already told about.

 

[Crystal_]

Else :
My top would be like =>

But we are not considering performance in BW, or are we?

Anyway, how can Starmie/Gengar be above Snorlax in that list, and more so, how can Snorlax not be the most dominant pokemon if only the first three gens are considered? Come on, Snorlax is significatively better than Starmie in RBY, GSC and ADV. On the other hand, RBY+DP Snorlax alone easily matches up RBY+DP Gengar to be honest, while I'd say GSC+DP Snorlax > GSC+DP Starmie.


Anyway, as for #7 to #10:

My number 7 is Suicune. Although it is not as common in GSC now as it was back then when the meta was slower paced, it's still one of the most impactful Pokemon in the tier, shutting down most of the mixed offense on it's own and still being one of the best Marowak counters for example (and one of the best vap counters with a roar set too).

Number 8 probably goes to Celebi. Based on Snorlax being OU, it should've remained OU in GSC to be honest. Anyway, at least, since it's been OU for around half of GSC's existence, it should receive some credit for it imo. I think Celebi is better than Suicune in all gens from 2 to 4 (although in DP I'm not sure), but oh well, since Suicune has always been OU in GSC and Celebi is Uber right now, I'm placing Suicune above, as Celebi isn't all that much better than Suicune in any metagame anyway.

Probably now goes Chansey/Blissey for 9th since I like them combined. Chansey was top 3 in RBY, Blissey falls to around 20-23th in GSC, and places close to the top ten in adv as well as in DP.

My #10 probably goes to Cloyster. I like Cloy over Forr because:
Forr didn't exist in RBY. So DP Cloy > RBY Forr. Plus, if we consider Clamp Cloy, it's pretty good in RBY (inside top 10 arguable), so I'd say RBY Cloy ~ DP Forr
In GSC, Cloy is better than Forr.
In ADV, Forr is better than Cloy, but imo GSC+ADV Cloy is slightly better than GSC+ADV Forr.
Cloy over Dnite because:
They are about the same in RBY.
Cloy is [much] better and more common in GSC.
Cloy is better than Dnite in ADV.
Dnite is obviously much better than Cloy in DP, but for me, GSC+ADV+DP cloy > GSC+ADV+DP dnite by I hair.


P.S. Used recent PO usage stats for reference when talking about DP. For instance, forr is usually around #20-25, and Dnite likes the 7th position. Don't know if the stats are accurate or not though (looking at GSC, they probably aren't either...).

 

[Reymedy]

Indeed we are not, don't take it as a comment to contest what you all stated.
I'm just sharing my thoughts, based on my own experience.
I won't claim this top is better than the own you all built. This is purely my own one. I just wanted to make myself a "top".

I'm not going to stand up against you anyway, even if I could, this wasn't my purpose.


*As BW isn't relevant, switch Celebi and Suicune if you want my specific "opinion" on the topic. For the sole reason that Celebi was Uber in GEN2, and can't mitigate it by "out tiering" Suicune in BW.

 

[Crystal_]

No, I mean, this thread has been dead for more than a month and I have almost forgotten how it worked exactly, for one moment I almost wondered if BW was also taken into account. But really, you are underrating how dominant Snorlax is in RBY and in GSC! (or overrating Gengar/Starmie?)

 

[Jorgen]

Part of DP that needs to be taken into account is its history, too, which current usage stats don't reflect.

That being said I agree with Crystal on Cune/Celebi/Blissey for 7/8/9. I disagree with Cloy for #10, though, because it is mediocre in ADV (I mean it has selling points but imo it ain't that great) and aggressively so in DPP. Plus Cloy wasn't even considered OU for most of RBY's history, which should count against Cloy.

I still like Forr for #10. Unlike Egg and Jirachi it actually has at least 3 (2.5 in Celebi's case) gens of usefulness, which imo is pretty necessary. Unlike Cloy and Dnite it doesn't have multiple generations where it's been a second-class OU. It's consistently been one of, if not the, best at its role in each generation it's showed up. Its role is niche, but it's dominant within that niche and a constant presence in each generation because of it. Although I guess it wasn't until recently that it moved up from BL in ADV, so that probably counts against it.

 

[Reymedy]

No, I mean, this thread has been dead for more than a month and I have almost forgotten how it worked exactly, for one moment I almost wondered if BW was also taken into account. But really, you are underrating how dominant Snorlax is in RBY and in GSC! (or overrating Gengar/Starmie?)

My knowledge on RBY and GSC is dim at best. That's why I'm not gonna contest, and trust you. However it is pretty hard for me to change my own Top just based on opinions.
So for my top, as mentionned, it's purely my own feeling and experience. It's totally subjective ^^

For the rest (basically the 7/8/9/10), it's up to any discussion.
For the subjective one, it was built on what I played/saw myself... so it's not really something open to a debate since we all have different experiences. When I build a team in ADV let's say, I think I care take of different threat, and favour different pokemons than you, that's the same idea. It all came from the games I saw/played :p

For the #10, I don't see why Dragonite would be here. I mean it was strong in RBY with the outrageous pseudo-trapping set (that's what I heard :o). In GSC (I don't know this tier) but he probably has been crippled by the "loss" of Wrap.
In ADV he has been totally outclassed by Salamence and fulfil a tiny niche.
In DPP, he revived with the ban of Salamence... so I feel a little bad talking about an influencing force. In BW however he shines, but that's not the subject no? :\
However as the first Dragon..

 

[Oiawesome]

Suicune never has dominated anything and this is for dominance so even though short celebis gsc needs to be counted,Suicune was good in ADV but not really dominance as much as "good"ness ADV was a ttar meta to me.Suicune in ADV never really was game breakingly dominating or dominate at all.Same in DPP and GSC was a celebi(short time) and then a snorlax meta so yeah sui shouldent even be a option.

 

[M Dragon]

Suicune never has dominated anything and this is for dominance so even though short celebis gsc needs to be counted,Suicune was good in ADV but not really dominance as much as "good"ness ADV was a ttar meta to me.Suicune in ADV never really was game breakingly dominating or dominate at all.Same in DPP and GSC was a celebi(short time) and then a snorlax meta so yeah sui shouldent even be a option.

Have you ever played ADV?
Suicune dominated ADV.


Also, about Celebi, it doesnt count in GSC, because it wasnt OU, it was Uber.

 

[Oiawesome]

Suicune never dominated,it isnt the face or close to the face of ADV its kind of good but ADV OU was more of a "Tyranitar"meta and yes I have played ADV,and I play a lot,a long with other past gens,that why I love ROA so much.Also Celebi had a time in GSC OU before it got the boot to ubers it was dominate as f*ck.

 

[meteor64]

Suicune never dominated,it isnt the face or close to the face of ADV

That argument is like saying Zapdos isn't a dominant pokemon in GSC because Lax is the face of the meta.
Suicune is not the top dog of ADV but its certainly one of them, and its presence has certainly caused the metagame to mould to its presence. Suicune is a top 5 mon at the very least. Sure, TTar is a more dominant mon, but that doesn't stop Cune from being a major, major issue every player has to build around or face losing a lot of games.

 

[Oiawesome]

Zapdos dominated in many catagories in GSC,Special Attacking,Electric types,etc. While that is not true for suicune in gen 3(ADV)And while Suicune may be good its just meh in its meta.W/ reliable recovery it would probaly dominate ADV but its that and "locked movepool" that stop suicune from bieng good.Also Zapdos actualy was quite a dominate force,The Meta wouldent be the same but it wouldent be too shifted if suicune left iirc.but if Zapdos or Snorlax left GSC it would shift majorly iirc.

 

[meteor64]

Zapdos dominated in many catagories in GSC,Special Attacking,Electric types,etc. While that is not true for suicune in gen 3(ADV)And while Suicune may be good its just meh in its meta.W/ reliable recovery it would probaly dominate ADV but its that and "locked movepool" that stop suicune from bieng good.Also Zapdos actualy was quite a dominate force,The Meta wouldent be the same but it wouldent be too shifted if suicune left iirc.but if Zapdos or Snorlax left GSC it would shift majorly iirc.

...I'm seriously starting to doubt whether you've played adv to the extent you think. Suicune is very similar to GSC Zapdos in that it simultaneously poses as a strong defensive pillar and a huge offensive threat, and it also has the power to beat its checks over the course of a game- in fact, Suicune is even more capable of that feat because Pressure stalling is far more reliable than hitting consecutive Thunders. This is why Rest is actually a good thing for Cune and any seasoned ADV player knows this. To go any further would be taking this comparison too far, since they exist in completely different meta's and are completely different pokemon. But the point is they both achieve similar things.

Secondly, locked movepool? Last time I checked the only 2 moves that are mandatory on a Cune set were Calm Mind and a STAB move (a trait that Jirachi, a renowned "versatile" pokemon shares)- the rest of it's set can be a number of things- Rest/Roar, Rest/Ice Beam, Resttalk, Sub/Ice Beam, or even Ice Beam/HP Electric. That's more than enough options to pose a multidimensional threat, and they all require different methods to overcome.

You are right that removing Cune would have less effect than removing GSC Zap, but not for the reasons you think. As I already said, Cune has many viable sets that it can run, and they perform and threaten in different ways. In fact, between its sets it can get past any pokemon in the game. Zapdos, while being amazing, does not have that luxury. Like I said earlier, the comparison doesn't apply. It has no way around Raikou (unless extreme parahax), and thus it probably owes its high usage to Zapdos' existence. Suicune has sets for Blissey, for Celebi, for Zapdos, for Regice, for Gyarados... can you see the problem? Theres not a way to beat all Cune sets with one poke, and things that do give most Cune sets trouble (Zapdos, CMBlissey, Raikou) will run those sets regardless because they're so effective in other common scenarios. If any change were to happen, it'd probably just be the things that Cune walls getting more prevalent, such as TTar, Flygon, Mence, Aero, and Pert. Especially Pert.