Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Team 2 won!]

[Reymedy]

ok,I think I failed to explain properly.The fact that Cobalion can't hit hard means it's going to be very easy to wall for pokemons with high defense,such as Skarmory,Gliscor etc.Also,the opposition is likely to pack priority or pokes with good typing against Cob's coverage or any other method.To sum it up,I'm saying Cobalion's low attack stat makes it easy to stop as a SubSalac Sweeper.Hence,I suggested Leftovers to give it more durability.It also leaves Cobalion's role as a SubSD sweeper intact.

First :
- a mon will always get walled by something, Skarmory ? Gliscor ? hell, they wall any physical pokemon, that's no surprise. Forcing the opposing team to pick hard walls like that who are easily countered themselves is a good thing.

- Priority ? then Substitute forces them to take a hit, either on the switch or when they kill the Sub. There isn't many Mach Punch users that can take a CC or a SE so easily. Conkeldurr? Hitmontop ? x)

However, Lefties are what ? 20% extra health in a whole game ? I rather have the possibility to kill frail scarf or stuff like that.
What you seem to miss, is that when we put Cobalion onto Kyurem, the enemy WILL switch, and we will hit on the switch. After some play around, when Cobalions walls will be low enouhg in HP, the sweep can begin, not before. Hence the fact that Cobalion won't be spamming Substitute so much, and prefer a boost in Speed.
I'm not saying Salac is the only possible item, but I don't see Leftovers doing a great job here, it's safe for sure, but I rather have some burst power.

 

[Bryce]

First :
- a mon will always get walled by something, Skarmory ? Gliscor ? hell, they wall any physical pokemon, that's no surprise. Forcing the opposing team to pick hard walls like that who are easily countered themselves is a good thing.

- Priority ? then Substitute forces them to take a hit, either on the switch or when they kill the Sub. There isn't many Mach Punch users that can take a CC or a SE so easily. Conkeldurr? Hitmontop ? x)

However, Lefties are what ? 20% extra health in a whole game ? I rather have the possibility to kill frail scarf or stuff like that.
What you seem to miss, is that when we put Cobalion onto Kyurem, the enemy WILL switch, and we will hit on the switch. After some play around, when Cobalions walls will be low enouhg in HP, the sweep can begin, not before. Hence the fact that Cobalion won't be spamming Substitute so much, and prefer a boost in Speed.
I'm not saying Salac is the only possible item, but I don't see Leftovers doing a great job here, it's safe for sure, but I rather have some burst power.

I was stating that like you said,the opponent will switch.They will switch to something that can handle Cobalion.I'm saying that it is easy to 'handle' cobalion because of that low offensive presence.And again,like you said you will play around Cobalions counters and check before attempting to sweep.I'm saying that it will be hard to "play around" so it's better not to design it as a SubSalac sweeper.And priorities will be used after your Salac berry is used.Leftovers however would increase you're durability as Cobalion is likely to force out something which you will take advantage by Subing.Next time you switch out,Cobalion will have at least 12% hp recovered which in the long run will prove useful.

Anyway,I'm not going to argue any further or expand my point.It will be pointless to do over a change so small.If my point isn't satisfying to you use any item you would like.

 

[ClubbingSealCub]

I was stating that like you said,the opponent will switch.They will switch to something that can handle Cobalion.I'm saying that it is easy to 'handle' cobalion because of that low offensive presence.

Well, this depends. If my Cube got a sub up as Coballion switched in, I would just Dtail it out while it CC'ed me (or even better, SD'd up expecting a switch).

 

[Bryce]

Well, this depends. If my Cube got a sub up as Coballion switched in, I would just Dtail it out while it CC'ed me (or even better, SD'd up expecting a switch).

That is a different scenario.Obviously you're not going to switch when you have a Sub up.If Cobalion switches in when you have a Sub up,Cobalion is just going to Sub to block the dtail.Then Cobalion would proceede to CC which will break your sub.And then unless you want to make a risky prediction,you're going to switch.

 

[ginganinja]

Guys you have to remember that Team #1 is going to counter our pick too. For example SD Scizor, while countering Kyurem-B, is boned by Magnezone which means we need another Kyurem-B check and so on. Heck, I am seeing a Heatran set which imo is a pretty average counter to Kyurem-B AT BEST. Think smarter guys, and think ahead to what Team #2 will try and do to counter our submission.

Quite frankly, the best way to handle Kyurem-B, is going to be faster phazers, since it basically strips Kyurem-B from attacking. There are several pokemon that can outspeed and phaze Kyurem-B, such as Latias, Riolu, Heatran Garchomp, Zapdos, Salamence, Cobalion etc etc. Sure, some of these pokemon cannot directly switch in on a dragon tail, but that can stll phaze Kyurem-B out if we get a free switch which is something to bear in mind. Also remember that Dragon Tail has 16 PP, which means a Pressure user such as Deoxys-D or something could also piss off Kyurem-B, since it can outspeed, Taunt, force a Dragon Tail, thus stripping 2 PP from Kyurem-B, this making it easier to PP stall, which will make it useless :)

Anyway, I WILL submit something when I have a moment, but for now, everyone submitting for Team 2 has to bear a few things in mind. Firstly, we have a pick right after this, and we HAVE to use it in such a way that it threatens Team 1, so drastically, that they have to use a slot or 2 to check it, giving us momentum. SO, what I want is as follows

Step 1, we pick something that beats Kyurem-B. Personally, this cannot be a "passive" pick, but something that can actually threaten Team 1. It doesn't have to be a sweeper, for example Deoxys-D is prolly threatening to Team 2 due to it setting up SR + Spikes, and Rilou is a prick since it can Roar before Kyurem-B can dragon tail, then use copycat the turn after starting its phazing chain while taking 0 damage.

Step 2, we pick something that also threatens Team 1, something that is an exceptionally dangerous pokemon, hard to switch into and counter, like Terrakion, Salamence, Dragonite etc etc. The standard "powerhouse" sweepers / wallbreakers of BW2. This has the effect of Team 1 having to use its next 2 slots to counter our 2 picks, which gives us 100% momentum, since we are now directing tempo, which should hopefully remove the problem of Team 1 having access to the last pick. IF we are aggressive enough in pick order, then it is harder for Team 1 to counter us utterly in its final pick and we have a better shot at winning.

Feel free to nitpick this post, but its how I think we should go from here. Find agressive counters for Kyurem-B, and then a powerful pokemon in BW2 to give us offensive momentium when Team 1 have their next pick.

 

[HackerKing]

I've been playing around with the Kyurem set and Scizor causes it pain, but the main thorn in its side is Heatran. It takes negligible damage from Dragon Tail and threatens with STAB flamethrower / Fire Blast.

Additionally, something like Craydily spells doom for Kyurem. A rest-talk Craydily with Rock Slide and Curse can proceed to setup on Kyrem and then rip it to shreds. However, Craydily requires team support to succeed.

Another possibility is something like Conkeldurr. Conkeldurr can use STAB Mach Punch to do serious damage to Kyurem.

 

[Turtle Soup]

I've been thinking about suggesting this Poke and now that Ginganinja mentioned it I thought I'd go for it.

Deoxys-D @ Mental Herb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Spd / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
-Stealth Rock
-Spikes
-Taunt
-Recover

It can set up hazards that Kyurem-b won't appreciate. It can stop the enemy from setting up his hazards which are quite important for Cubes success. It can stop Cube from setting up and it can also PP stall it.

 

[ganj4lF]

Let me comment on the pokes already suggested:

Cobalion is not that attractive, in my opinion. Yeah, huge defense and resistance to Dragon Tail is nice, however even a +2 Cobalion is easily dealt with from a number of defensive and offensive pokes, Gliscor, Landorus -I and -T, whatever Bulky Ground they like to pick (Donphan, Hippo), hell even Jellicent, and many, many others. It's just too easily to exploit and it's not worth the risk in my opinion.

Scizor works better, however picking someone with so little coverage so early kinda worries me. They have a gazillion ways to stop that set, Heatran, Skarmory, Jellicent, Gyarados will do the trick easily. As someone already said, arguably every set has its counters, however taking a set-up sweeper that's so easily countered means that you're either not using your set-up move, or you're wasting turns on boosts you won't be able to utilize. Also, many have expressed concerns about Scizor just being phazed out while attempting set-up, and that's not enjoyable too.

Jirachi should work fine, although again, it's kida easy for them to pick Heatran, Gastrodon, or Celebi and exploit it easily. I would delay the set-up sweepers for later to avoid running into problems like this.

Haxorus can work, although I can see quite a bit of problems while trying to get it in. Team 1 can just fish the switch with Dragon Tail, especially if Cube switches into something that cannot threaten it so much.

Heatran can work, but I'm under the impression that those Fire Blasts will be outstalled quite easily, and EP can't break Cube's Subs. You must either rely on WoW's sub par accuracy (while also risking them picking a Guts abuser or soemthing) or you could be in trouble too. An idea could be an offensive set with Roar that, although gimmicky, could phaze out Cube before Dragon Tail could hit it. Still my favourite option right now.

I may submit a set myself later, but I still don't have any idea good enough. Keep up with the discussion!

EDIT: lol ninjaed by a ton of people. Just to say that I agree with ginganinja on almost everything...

 

[ClubbingSealCub]

I've been thinking about suggesting this Poke and now that Ginganinja mentioned it I thought I'd go for it.

Deoxys-D @ Red Card
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Spd / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
-Stealth Rocks
-Spikes
-Taunt
-Magic Coat

It can set up hazards that Kyurem-b won't appreciate. It can stop the enemy from setting up his hazards which are quite important for Cubes success. It can stop Cube from setting up, it can PP stall it and it can also force it out once if it still has it's Red Card.

If you aim to beat Cube with this Deo, it should pack Recover in there somewhere or at least pack leftovers, because it will be eating a lot of Dragon Tails and hazard damage.

 

[Crackstar]

Well something that I've found that checks a lot of Dragons, Cube included, that's unorthodox and effective is an often-forgotten UU poke with monster stats, Rhyperior. It's defense and attack stats are unreal, allowing him to both check and threaten Kyurem-B with his STAB. It can't switch into Dtail, but neither can anything, so it doesnt matter.

@ Leftovers
Adamant Nature
Evs: 252 Atk / 136 Atk / 120 Def
- Rock Blast
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock

This set gives Team 2 Rocks straight off, as well as a Cube check and a tough switch-in for anything that may try and switch in on its EdgeQuake coverage. It can't be trapped by Zone, which is a plus, and deals serious damage with its moves, unlike say a Skarmory. The Evs are made to be 6KO'd by Dragon Tail, with the rest dumped in Atk for more punch. Rock Blast is to break subs by Cube, and Stone Edge is to hit more things hard. Earthquake is strong STAB, and Rocks are standard. I think this set, while strange, is a great check to Cube and a tough thing for team 1 to counter.

 

[Arcticblast]

Rhyperior's pretty badass, but what ability is it running?

 

[G-Von]

I've been thinking about suggesting this Poke and now that Ginganinja mentioned it I thought I'd go for it.

Deoxys-D @ Red Card
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Spd / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
-Stealth Rocks
-Spikes
-Taunt
-Magic Coat

It can set up hazards that Kyurem-b won't appreciate. It can stop the enemy from setting up his hazards which are quite important for Cubes success. It can stop Cube from setting up, it can PP stall it and it can also force it out once if it still has it's Red Card.

ClubbingSeal made a good point. If I were you, I would take out Taunt and put in Recover since you already have Magic Coat.

 

[Turtle Soup]

ClubbingSeal made a good point. If I were you, I would take out Taunt and put in Recover since you already have Magic Coat.

The problem I see with replacing Taunt is that then Cube or other pokes can easily set up on Deoxys-D, and if I would replace Magic Coat than the enemy can just pick a faster Taunt user. However if the general consensus is that that it should have recover I'm willing to replace it but I'm not really convinced yet. Also I would like to mention is that Deoxys-D isn't really going to take it Cube it just points a giant middle finger in it's face. In my opinion after choosing D-D the second Poke should be one that can easily take out Cube and also pose a threat to the upcoming Mons, for example the previously mentioned Terrakion.

 

[Reymedy]

Okay, considering all these critics.. I decided to change the set for the mixed attacker (remixed).

Cobalion @ Leftovers
56 HP / 28 Atk / 172 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Substitute
- Close Combat
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Volt-Switch

No more, "Gliscor Skarmort Landorus etc" argument.
Even Jellicent can't be picked since we can just get a Pursuiter and trap it with Volt Switch.
Still survive a 2xDragonTail.

What else could one ask for? :<

 

[Bryce]

Well,might as well suggest this

Cloyster (M) @ White Herb
Trait: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Hydro Pump

While Cloyster cannot set up on the cube,it can threaten it with Rock Blast which bypasses Substitute.Cloyster takes about 25-30% from Dragon tail while breaking kyurem-B's Sub and inflicting a lot of damage.An unboosted cloyster does about 48-57% to the cube.

Cloyster doesn't really mind Dragon tail damage,as with it's titanic defense stat,it can set up on pretty much any non figting physical attacker Team 1 might choose without being at full health.We all know how dangerous cloyster can be after set up,outspeeding every common scarfer while being walled by only a hand few bulky waters.Cloyster will also put a lot of pressure on team 1's selection later as they must be cautious of not including a team member who is set bait for something as dangerous as cloyster.

 

[Reymedy]

I'm wondering, is this possible to have to same pokemon in both team ?

Basically the idea is, I realise Stunfisk is a threat to team #1, pick it before team#2 does.
Or is this impossible ?

(this would make the thing maybe even more interesting :>)

 

[ginganinja]

ClubbingSeal made a good point. If I were you, I would take out Taunt and put in Recover since you already have Magic Coat.

You want Taunt really really bad. If getting taunted is worrying, run Mental Herb on Deoxys-D, and you can drop Magic Coat for Recover to effectively PP stall Kyurem-B

 

[ClubbingSealCub]

You want Taunt really really bad. If getting taunted is worrying, run Mental Herb on Deoxys-D, and you can drop Magic Coat for Recover to effectively PP stall Kyurem-B

It's a pretty tight spot for Deo-D.

If we go for mental herb + taunt, team 1 can pick a magic bounce / coat and / or a spinner (or both, magic coat tenta o:); and if we go for magic coat, then a boosting sweeper like double dance Terrak or Thun-T could set up on Deo and deal major damage; and obviously not packing recovery means Cube will beat it.

It's a pick-your-poison situation. The best we can do (if we pick deo) is choose between herb + taunt and coat and then use the second pick to cover the aforementioned threats. Just my 2c.

 

[Crackstar]

Rhyperior's pretty badass, but what ability is it running?

Sorry, forgot about that. I'm thinking Solid Rock as there's nothing better that helps us with Cube. About Deo-D, it does have hard counters in Xatu and Espeon that may prevent us from getting our hazards, which I dont like. It has to choose like ClubbingSealCub said between two different sets, which isnt optimal.

 

[Turtle Soup]

Ok changed Deoxys-D to @Mental Herb and replaced Magic Coat with Recover cause would be probably more useful, especially based on what we already know about team 1. Magic Bounce will indead be a hindrance bit it can be played around, it all comes down to predictions. Also we are would be quite railroading team 1s choices if they have to go for one of those pokes.

 

[HackerKing]

Well,might as well suggest this

Cloyster (M) @ White Herb
Trait: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Hydro Pump

While Cloyster cannot set up on the cube,it can threaten it with Rock Blast which bypasses Substitute.Cloyster takes about 25-30% from Dragon tail while breaking kyurem-B's Sub and inflicting a lot of damage.An unboosted cloyster does about 48-57% to the cube.

Cloyster doesn't really mind Dragon tail damage,as with it's titanic defense stat,it can set up on pretty much any non figting physical attacker Team 1 might choose without being at full health.We all know how dangerous cloyster can be after set up,outspeeding every common scarfer while being walled by only a hand few bulky waters.Cloyster will also put a lot of pressure on team 1's selection later as they must be cautious of not including a team member who is set bait for something as dangerous as cloyster.

Change the White Herb to Focus Sash as Cloyster gets screwed over by something like a Breloom or Conkeldurr Mach Punch. On my team, Breloom is my go-to-Cloyster counter for STAB and technician.

 

[Reymedy]

He wants Cloyster to switch in on Kyurem-B, did you read what you did quote?

 

[MMII]

Oh, derp I kinda missed the fact that we picked two mons (now things makes more sense). In which case I want to go back and suggest the cool new Custap Berry Forry I had mentioned in my earlier post. Cube is major Spikes fodder and with 4th Gen Magic Coat and newly released Custap Berry, Forry can double up as a hazards lead that will force any opposing Deo-D lead to run Hidden Power Fire with Magic Coat to reliably deal with it. (Even then, a smart predict on the HP Fire will let Forry set up a layer of hazards not to mention it makes it easier for something else to switch in on it.)
The other option would be to run a Crustle who has cool STABs to hit Xatu, Deo-D, and Kyurem-B for SE damage. Sadly, that defense stat isn't that great to take even unboosted D-Tails and Forry is already threatening enough with easy set-up fodder and possible hazards lead.

Forretress (M) @ Custap Berry
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
IVs: 0 Spd
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Gyro Ball
- Magic Coat

Physical defensive spread to eat DTails and tank unboosted most physical attacks. Forry doesn't have a big movepool so Magic Coat gives it better lead match-ups with Deo-D. Gyro Ball pops Subs and limits the Magic Bouncer counter pick to Xatu. Cube may be able to PP Stall that 8PP but you don't have to worry about it using Forry as set up fodder as you can pop its Sub before it decides to go offensive with super boosted DTails and revenge it with whatever gets dragged in. The low speed is cause being slow than other Spiners or Spikers helps get extra layers up and pumps up Gyro Ball.

 

[ginganinja]

If we go for mental herb + taunt, team 1 can pick a magic bounce / coat and / or a spinner (or both, magic coat tenta o:); and if we go for magic coat, then a boosting sweeper like double dance Terrak or Thun-T could set up on Deo and deal major damage; and obviously not packing recovery means Cube will beat it.

Err, even if we go with Magic Coat don't we STILL lose to spinners and Magic Bouncers, while at least Taunt + Mental Herb can taunt some set up sweepers, or even run T-Wave for Terrak (even tho +2 SE doesn't OHKO so we get at least 1 layer down) at the cost of a hazard. I just woke up so might have missed something really obvious but I don't get what you are saying lol. Can you explain?

EDIT

Forretress is a bad pick IMO since as I pointed out in my tl;dr post above, it doesn't actually beat Kyurem-B and Team #2 can overload on spinners / magic bounce uers / pokemon that can set up on Forry (which is like, huge) and its pretty passive IMO. Id much rather look at fucking countering Kyurem-B first, before looking at other shit like Forretress.

C'mon guys don't suggest stuff that is set up fodder for Kyurem-B since its a) not countering / checking it and b) a terrible pick regardless.

 

[KRageToo]

To determine whether hazards/spinning would be useful, the best way is to wait until some of the team members has actually been revealed. I mean, Team 2 doesn't even have any member yet. As it has been pointed out, Team 1 could easily just put in a Magic Bouncer or a Spinner. Plus, only one pokemon has been revealed so far so the priority is to have something that can counter it and puts pressure on the Team 1. Remember, the next round will be another Team 2 choice. We don't want Team 1 to easily counter our choices thus giving the a chance to freely put a powerhouse on their third choice. They also get the advantage of the final slot picking so we can't afford to waste one.