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Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Team 2 won!]
- Thread starter ganj4lF
- Start date
turtle soup
seriously when is Deo-D not a good addition to a team
despite the fact that last CTP Deo-D was the main reason why our results were skewed, I think throwing it in early brings two positive traits to this event:
1. Team 2 will be able to be diverse. As I said, Deo-D can fit in nearly any team, carrying support and a fast taunt as well as impenitrable defenses. It has hazards, which forces team 1 to use a slot for spinning/bouncing, which we can exploit due to the fact that they will resort to one of the few viable spinners in OU. Taunt is fun; it blocks setup and gives team 2 a way to beat defensive/stall.
2. We prepare for Deo-D. Right now, it's a huge threat in the meta- sitting up there amongst Terrakion, Politoed, and used-to-be-Genesect. No teams should ever be made without a conscious defense against Deoxys-D (as shown from our previous CTP) so throwing it in there and getting ideas flowing early is best.
despite the fact that last CTP Deo-D was the main reason why our results were skewed, I think throwing it in early brings two positive traits to this event:
1. Team 2 will be able to be diverse. As I said, Deo-D can fit in nearly any team, carrying support and a fast taunt as well as impenitrable defenses. It has hazards, which forces team 1 to use a slot for spinning/bouncing, which we can exploit due to the fact that they will resort to one of the few viable spinners in OU. Taunt is fun; it blocks setup and gives team 2 a way to beat defensive/stall.
2. We prepare for Deo-D. Right now, it's a huge threat in the meta- sitting up there amongst Terrakion, Politoed, and used-to-be-Genesect. No teams should ever be made without a conscious defense against Deoxys-D (as shown from our previous CTP) so throwing it in there and getting ideas flowing early is best.
Everything has been said.
I don't like so much Deoxys-D but seems like there is no other choice.
Turtle Soup
As much as I like the Sub Heatran set, I think it is a little too specialised for dealing with Kyurem-B. I just feel as if it won't provide enough support for Team 2 as a whole, and is basically encouraging a passive team building route from the beginning, which in my opinion we shouldn't aim for. Whilst Deoxys-D doesn't counter Kyurem-B directly, it makes life as difficult as possible for it, putting Team 1 in a situation that necessitates a good Rapid Spin user. Team 2 can quite easily take advantage of this by forcing Team 1 on the defensive.
As much as I like the Sub Heatran set, I think it is a little too specialised for dealing with Kyurem-B. I just feel as if it won't provide enough support for Team 2 as a whole, and is basically encouraging a passive team building route from the beginning, which in my opinion we shouldn't aim for. Whilst Deoxys-D doesn't counter Kyurem-B directly, it makes life as difficult as possible for it, putting Team 1 in a situation that necessitates a good Rapid Spin user. Team 2 can quite easily take advantage of this by forcing Team 1 on the defensive.
Turtle Soup
While Heatran is good, I feel that in general, Deoxys-D puts Team 1 under greater pressure as Team 2 can limit their options, forcing them to run a spinner or a magic bouncer. I also find Deo-D to be a better starting point for Team 2 than Heatran, which slightly limits the number of options we have (for instance, Rain becomes an much less attractive option if we start building our team with Heatran).
While Heatran is good, I feel that in general, Deoxys-D puts Team 1 under greater pressure as Team 2 can limit their options, forcing them to run a spinner or a magic bouncer. I also find Deo-D to be a better starting point for Team 2 than Heatran, which slightly limits the number of options we have (for instance, Rain becomes an much less attractive option if we start building our team with Heatran).
Substitute Cobalion:
Cobalion is so weak that, although it may deal with Cube, Team 1 won't even have to try to counter it. Anything they may ever want to choose will probably at least check Cobalion.
SD Scizor:
Cool set. Sadly, without Super Power, there are a lot of major threats (Keldeo and Heatran off the top of my head) that can safely switch-in. Plus it makes the choice of U-Turn over Bug Bite not as efficient as it would be. DTail spam + Hazards reduces it's effectiveness in countering Cube. It's a good choice but there are arguably better ones.
SubCM Jirachi:
Kind of in the same boat as Scizor. It does a better job of dealing with Cube but its low damage output and limited coverage can make it easy set up fodder for some mons (like Thundy-T as Remedy pointed out). Another worthwhile choice but not the one I'm going to pick.
CB Haxorus:
Haxy has dropped in usefulness in BW2, especially CB Haxy in a stall starved metagame. It's even worse in this project where Stall teams are heavily discouraged (and for good reason). On top of that, it can't switch-in on Cube and, even if it does come in safely, it still needs Cube to have taken SR damage to take it out from behind a Sub.
Substitute Heatran:
ganj4lF explained the flaws of this set in countering Cube plus it's easy set up fodder for Keldeo. (and probably some other stuff, too)
Rhyperior: Sure it can check Cube but, like Cobalion, Team 1 won't feel any pressure while choosing it's picks since it's general usefulness stops at SR.
Cloyster: I like Cloyster in general but I don't think it's a worthwhile pick here. It can't set up on the little bit of Team 1 that is already there and doesn't even reliably check the Pokemon we are supposed to be countering. Maybe Team 1's latter picks will give it some worth but right now it's just a wasted slot and wasted opportunity.
Forretress: It's my set so....
ganj4lF's Substitute Heatran: I'm going to vote for this set. It can easily switch in on Cube and get a free Substitute while the faster Roar makes it impossible for it to ever sweep. Roar also messes with the OP trying to set up on it and its monstrous SpAtk makes it annoying to pop that Sub it hides behind. It can easily abuse any hazards out on the field and is the hardest Heatran for Duggy to trap and kill besides Shed Shell. (It can't switch in on any of its unless SR isn't somehow up. Roar prevents the OP from scrapping something useless and bringing Duggy to revenge. Substitute just straight up screws it over and removes any need for prediction.) It may not be putting tremendous offensive pressure like a Terrakion or Cloyster nor setting up double layers like Forry or Deo-D but it is a solid set that will definitely be a team player and a head-ache to play against.
Cobalion is so weak that, although it may deal with Cube, Team 1 won't even have to try to counter it. Anything they may ever want to choose will probably at least check Cobalion.
SD Scizor:
Cool set. Sadly, without Super Power, there are a lot of major threats (Keldeo and Heatran off the top of my head) that can safely switch-in. Plus it makes the choice of U-Turn over Bug Bite not as efficient as it would be. DTail spam + Hazards reduces it's effectiveness in countering Cube. It's a good choice but there are arguably better ones.
SubCM Jirachi:
Kind of in the same boat as Scizor. It does a better job of dealing with Cube but its low damage output and limited coverage can make it easy set up fodder for some mons (like Thundy-T as Remedy pointed out). Another worthwhile choice but not the one I'm going to pick.
CB Haxorus:
Haxy has dropped in usefulness in BW2, especially CB Haxy in a stall starved metagame. It's even worse in this project where Stall teams are heavily discouraged (and for good reason). On top of that, it can't switch-in on Cube and, even if it does come in safely, it still needs Cube to have taken SR damage to take it out from behind a Sub.
Substitute Heatran:
ganj4lF explained the flaws of this set in countering Cube plus it's easy set up fodder for Keldeo. (and probably some other stuff, too)
Rhyperior: Sure it can check Cube but, like Cobalion, Team 1 won't feel any pressure while choosing it's picks since it's general usefulness stops at SR.
Cloyster: I like Cloyster in general but I don't think it's a worthwhile pick here. It can't set up on the little bit of Team 1 that is already there and doesn't even reliably check the Pokemon we are supposed to be countering. Maybe Team 1's latter picks will give it some worth but right now it's just a wasted slot and wasted opportunity.
Forretress: It's my set so....
ganj4lF's Substitute Heatran: I'm going to vote for this set. It can easily switch in on Cube and get a free Substitute while the faster Roar makes it impossible for it to ever sweep. Roar also messes with the OP trying to set up on it and its monstrous SpAtk makes it annoying to pop that Sub it hides behind. It can easily abuse any hazards out on the field and is the hardest Heatran for Duggy to trap and kill besides Shed Shell. (It can't switch in on any of its unless SR isn't somehow up. Roar prevents the OP from scrapping something useless and bringing Duggy to revenge. Substitute just straight up screws it over and removes any need for prediction.) It may not be putting tremendous offensive pressure like a Terrakion or Cloyster nor setting up double layers like Forry or Deo-D but it is a solid set that will definitely be a team player and a head-ache to play against.
It does carry Recover. Go edit your vote if that's enough to change your mind! Voting is closing in an hour or so.
Voting is closed! By only one preference, my Heatran manages to win over Deoxys-D! Here's the tally (as usual, entries with zero votes are omitted):
So this is the first pokemon of Team 2:
ganj4lF's Heatran @ Leftovers | Flash Fire
Timid | 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Substitute
- Roar
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
Now we're going to pick the second member of Team 2. Please submit only one set for person, including sprite, ability, item, EVs, IVs if necessary, nature, moveset, and a brief description. Sets lacking any of those elements won't be listed for votes. This discussion / submission phase will be opened for about 48 hours.
- Eranu's SD Scizor: 1
- ClubbingSealCub's CB Haxorus: 1
- Turtle Soup's Deoxys-D: 8
- ganj4lF's Substitute Heatran: 9
So this is the first pokemon of Team 2:
ganj4lF's Heatran @ Leftovers | Flash Fire
Timid | 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Substitute
- Roar
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
Now we're going to pick the second member of Team 2. Please submit only one set for person, including sprite, ability, item, EVs, IVs if necessary, nature, moveset, and a brief description. Sets lacking any of those elements won't be listed for votes. This discussion / submission phase will be opened for about 48 hours.
I would like to nominate this monster of a Pokemon:
[pimg]130[/pimg]
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 56 HP / 240 Atk / 212 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Bounce
- Substitute
I know there's a ton of Substitute flying around already (SubHC Cube and Sub Heatran o.o), but bear with me. Gyarados is an absolute monster in OU and it's a shame people don't use it. The HP EVs render a burned Ferrothorn unable to break its Substitutes with Power Whip (team 2 might not use Will-O-Wisp and Team 1 might not use Ferrothorn, but better safe than sorry!), while the Speed EVs allow it to outspeed Tornadus-T after a single boost. Waterfall and Bounce provide deceptively good coverage, and Substitute protects Gyarados from the status it hates. Heatran and Gyarados make an excellent offensive core, with Gyarados taking out Ground- and Fighting-types and Heatran removing pesky physical walls like Skarmory. This set doesn't fare well against a well-played Kyurem-B (even a +6 Waterfall only does 56.82 - 67.18%) but it's still an absolute beast.
[pimg]130[/pimg]
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 56 HP / 240 Atk / 212 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Bounce
- Substitute
I know there's a ton of Substitute flying around already (SubHC Cube and Sub Heatran o.o), but bear with me. Gyarados is an absolute monster in OU and it's a shame people don't use it. The HP EVs render a burned Ferrothorn unable to break its Substitutes with Power Whip (team 2 might not use Will-O-Wisp and Team 1 might not use Ferrothorn, but better safe than sorry!), while the Speed EVs allow it to outspeed Tornadus-T after a single boost. Waterfall and Bounce provide deceptively good coverage, and Substitute protects Gyarados from the status it hates. Heatran and Gyarados make an excellent offensive core, with Gyarados taking out Ground- and Fighting-types and Heatran removing pesky physical walls like Skarmory. This set doesn't fare well against a well-played Kyurem-B (even a +6 Waterfall only does 56.82 - 67.18%) but it's still an absolute beast.
Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
Timid Nature
- Secret Sword
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Surf
Keldeo has pretty great defensive synergy with Heatran. It resists Heatran's Water weakness (it's most common weakness) and Heatran resists Keldeo's Psychic, Flying, Grass weaknesses. There are obviously pokemon that have far better defensive synergy with Heatran than Keldeo, but most of them just don't pack the same offensive presence Keldeo does. There are a few surefire counters to this set, some are even Heatran counters too, eg. Jellicent. But the flaw with their counters, such as Jellicent, is that they're easily gotten rid of and / or trappable (Specs Gothitelle traps and 2HKOs Jellicent with Thunderbolt.) Keldeo is also probably the best revenge-killer out there atm, this really restricts Team 1's choice in sweepers, as alot of the most effective ones are beaten by Keldeo. Keldeo also helps take out Kyurem-B and it's an overall great choice for a member of this team.
canno
formerly The Reptile
Go go Techniloom!
Breloom @ Life Orb
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Low Sweep
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Spore
In terms of synergy, Breloom resists Water- and Ground-type moves aimed at Heatran, while Heatran can take the Flying-, Psychic-, Ice-, and Fire-type aimed at Breloom. It also relieves some pressure on Heatran in terms of dealing with Kyurem-B, since Kyu will not enjoy switching in on a move bar Bullet Seed, which doesn't matter too much since we outspeed regardless. Technician Mach Punch will dent a lot of pokemon, especially with that base 130 Attack, while Bullet Seed is rather strong thanks to the BW buff and Technician. Low Speed is there to hit things on the switch and slow them down, possibly allowing Breloom to outspeed and go for a possible 2HKO. Spore is there because Spore is rather crippling, especially due to the BW sleep mechanics. Finally, Heatran can deal with some of Brelooms counters, most notably Skarmory, and puts some restriction as to what pokemon they should choose.
Breloom @ Life Orb
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Low Sweep
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Spore
In terms of synergy, Breloom resists Water- and Ground-type moves aimed at Heatran, while Heatran can take the Flying-, Psychic-, Ice-, and Fire-type aimed at Breloom. It also relieves some pressure on Heatran in terms of dealing with Kyurem-B, since Kyu will not enjoy switching in on a move bar Bullet Seed, which doesn't matter too much since we outspeed regardless. Technician Mach Punch will dent a lot of pokemon, especially with that base 130 Attack, while Bullet Seed is rather strong thanks to the BW buff and Technician. Low Speed is there to hit things on the switch and slow them down, possibly allowing Breloom to outspeed and go for a possible 2HKO. Spore is there because Spore is rather crippling, especially due to the BW sleep mechanics. Finally, Heatran can deal with some of Brelooms counters, most notably Skarmory, and puts some restriction as to what pokemon they should choose.
If Deoxys-D would have been the first Poke on team 2 I would have suggested Scarf Terrakion next, however he's probably not the best partner for Heatran. Maybe Sash Terrakion would be work cause he brings both offensive presence and Stealth Rock, however he would loose the aspect of surprise. Also considering Scizor since he also will make Cube weep and has nice synergy with Heatran, I'll think about it and suggest something later.
One the stuff already suggested:
Gyarados - I don't see the point of it in this stage, he does nothing against Cube and just opens up a bunch of weaknesses to be exploited.
Keldeo - I like this one, not much to say.
Breloom - Not bad, but not that great either this early on imo, can be countered somewhat easily.
One the stuff already suggested:
Gyarados - I don't see the point of it in this stage, he does nothing against Cube and just opens up a bunch of weaknesses to be exploited.
Keldeo - I like this one, not much to say.
Breloom - Not bad, but not that great either this early on imo, can be countered somewhat easily.
This is an amazing little gem that I have used to great success on both stall teams and offensive teams, alike.
[pimg]130[/pimg]
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spd
Adamant Nature
~ Substitute
~ Thunder Wave
~ Waterfall
~ Stone Edge
Listen up--this thing is an absolute behemoth. Whether it's spreading paralysis or just outright walling threats such as Keldeo, Politoed, and Heatran, it's a great defensive support set. It resists the STAB attacks of several premier Pokemon, including the aforementioned Keldeo, Infernape, and Scizor, crippling all of them. With Intimidate, it can screw with most physical attackers, set up a substitute, paralyze the switch-in, and then go to work. With Waterfall and Stone Edge, this set is only resisted by Keldeo--who hates paralysis--Toxicroak, Breloom (who you can break through with a few Waterfalls), Empoleon (who also hates paralysis), and Ferrothorn (off the top of my head). With Waterfall's 20% flinch rate and Thunder Wave's paralysis, you can actually set up a bit of parahax, as well. Substitute prevents toxic from standard Politoed, burns from Rotom-W switch-ins, sleep from Breloom switch-ins, and Trick, which would otherwise screw with this set. It has great synergy with Heatran and spreads paralysis to aid in its unfortunate speed.
The given EVs give Gyarados tremendous bulk while allowing it to switch into Stealth Rock as many times as possible, maximum attack to do its damage, and a few speed EVs to set up a substitute other Gyarados (and there's nothing else that 8 EVs really help with more than speed). The substitutes simply do not want to break--they can take Fire Blasts from Heatran, Scalds/Hydro Pumps from Starmie, Politoed, Suicune, Milotic, Jellicent, and other bulky waters, and even Close Combats or some other neutral attacks, giving you plenty of time to recover HP and spread more paralysis. Most offensive threats that could break through and take a Waterfall or Stone Edge cannot afford to be paralyzed.
The important thing to note is that this set really screws with opposing weather as well. If your opponent is using rain, it powers up your own Waterfall while STILL not allowing opposing Scalds/Surfs to break your substitutes. With a boosted Waterfall, it makes you that much more threatening, especially with parahax on your side a good ~40% of the time. It also allows you to recover with Leftovers after using Substitute. All Politoed can really do is use Hidden Power Electric--which none run--or Perish Song, which still allows you to paralyze something, get a hit in, recover some HP from your substitute for 2 turns, and switch out. Toxic and Hypnosis and Scald are all blocked by Subs. Opposing sun teams, while weakening Waterfall, typically hate Stone Edge, and most of the offensive theats on sun teams have issues breaking Gyarados' substitute without risking paralysis to their potent sweepers. Ninetails can outrun you with Toxic / Hypnosis, however, so keep that in mind. But it can't switch in to anything on this set mid-game. Opposing sand, while negating Leftovers recovery, typically hates Waterfalls, and Tyranitar / Hippowdon / Terrakion / Landorus / Gliscor all are screwed with a combination of substitute, paralysis, and Waterfall. Landorus-T U-turns can't break your substitute, especially after Intimidate, and you can stall out Tyranitar's Stone Edge with a combination of 80% accuracy and substitute if absolutely necessary. Most steel types can't stand paralysis either.
I highly recommend this set, especially for Team 2. As far as Kyurem-B goes, Stone Edge murders it and at least breaks its substitute, not minding Dragon Tail. Intimidate also minimizes Dragon Tail's damage. And should Kyurem get cocky and not use substitute, a Thunder Wave will go a long way to ending its shenanigans.
[pimg]130[/pimg]
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spd
Adamant Nature
~ Substitute
~ Thunder Wave
~ Waterfall
~ Stone Edge
Listen up--this thing is an absolute behemoth. Whether it's spreading paralysis or just outright walling threats such as Keldeo, Politoed, and Heatran, it's a great defensive support set. It resists the STAB attacks of several premier Pokemon, including the aforementioned Keldeo, Infernape, and Scizor, crippling all of them. With Intimidate, it can screw with most physical attackers, set up a substitute, paralyze the switch-in, and then go to work. With Waterfall and Stone Edge, this set is only resisted by Keldeo--who hates paralysis--Toxicroak, Breloom (who you can break through with a few Waterfalls), Empoleon (who also hates paralysis), and Ferrothorn (off the top of my head). With Waterfall's 20% flinch rate and Thunder Wave's paralysis, you can actually set up a bit of parahax, as well. Substitute prevents toxic from standard Politoed, burns from Rotom-W switch-ins, sleep from Breloom switch-ins, and Trick, which would otherwise screw with this set. It has great synergy with Heatran and spreads paralysis to aid in its unfortunate speed.
The given EVs give Gyarados tremendous bulk while allowing it to switch into Stealth Rock as many times as possible, maximum attack to do its damage, and a few speed EVs to set up a substitute other Gyarados (and there's nothing else that 8 EVs really help with more than speed). The substitutes simply do not want to break--they can take Fire Blasts from Heatran, Scalds/Hydro Pumps from Starmie, Politoed, Suicune, Milotic, Jellicent, and other bulky waters, and even Close Combats or some other neutral attacks, giving you plenty of time to recover HP and spread more paralysis. Most offensive threats that could break through and take a Waterfall or Stone Edge cannot afford to be paralyzed.
The important thing to note is that this set really screws with opposing weather as well. If your opponent is using rain, it powers up your own Waterfall while STILL not allowing opposing Scalds/Surfs to break your substitutes. With a boosted Waterfall, it makes you that much more threatening, especially with parahax on your side a good ~40% of the time. It also allows you to recover with Leftovers after using Substitute. All Politoed can really do is use Hidden Power Electric--which none run--or Perish Song, which still allows you to paralyze something, get a hit in, recover some HP from your substitute for 2 turns, and switch out. Toxic and Hypnosis and Scald are all blocked by Subs. Opposing sun teams, while weakening Waterfall, typically hate Stone Edge, and most of the offensive theats on sun teams have issues breaking Gyarados' substitute without risking paralysis to their potent sweepers. Ninetails can outrun you with Toxic / Hypnosis, however, so keep that in mind. But it can't switch in to anything on this set mid-game. Opposing sand, while negating Leftovers recovery, typically hates Waterfalls, and Tyranitar / Hippowdon / Terrakion / Landorus / Gliscor all are screwed with a combination of substitute, paralysis, and Waterfall. Landorus-T U-turns can't break your substitute, especially after Intimidate, and you can stall out Tyranitar's Stone Edge with a combination of 80% accuracy and substitute if absolutely necessary. Most steel types can't stand paralysis either.
I highly recommend this set, especially for Team 2. As far as Kyurem-B goes, Stone Edge murders it and at least breaks its substitute, not minding Dragon Tail. Intimidate also minimizes Dragon Tail's damage. And should Kyurem get cocky and not use substitute, a Thunder Wave will go a long way to ending its shenanigans.
Seeing the SubDD Gyarados nominaton, I feel this has to be said -
Team 1's plan is rather obvious - Shuffler Kyu-B is not a mon you can slap onto a team and have success with (at least from my experience) so T1 will most likely pick 'mons that can help him "shuffle-sweep" a team - be it by phazing, preventing set up or taking its checks out.
Team 2 has to keep this in mind; and thus select mons accordingly. Ideally, the final product should follow these tow rules:
- Make sure every pick has a way of hurting Cube. This is probably the most important one - if a mon gets shuffled in and has to switch out because it can't break Cube's sub, that's a free turn for cube, which isn't good!
- Have a way around hazards. Spinners, bounce, fast taunts and such all will help reducing Cube's potential damage output.
I'm still thinking of a good nomination, so maybe I'll post one tomorrow.
Team 1's plan is rather obvious - Shuffler Kyu-B is not a mon you can slap onto a team and have success with (at least from my experience) so T1 will most likely pick 'mons that can help him "shuffle-sweep" a team - be it by phazing, preventing set up or taking its checks out.
Team 2 has to keep this in mind; and thus select mons accordingly. Ideally, the final product should follow these tow rules:
- Make sure every pick has a way of hurting Cube. This is probably the most important one - if a mon gets shuffled in and has to switch out because it can't break Cube's sub, that's a free turn for cube, which isn't good!
- Have a way around hazards. Spinners, bounce, fast taunts and such all will help reducing Cube's potential damage output.
I'm still thinking of a good nomination, so maybe I'll post one tomorrow.
While this does look like an interesting set for normal metagame it doesn't really work as is for this team. There are 3 problems with this Gyrados vs Kyurem-B: it's slower, SE only does max of 56% (for you math majors that's no damage taken after roost and lefties) and SE's meager 8 pp. Since Kyurem-B is faster than this set it can Roost/Sub stall your SE PP very easily.
If you make Gyrados instead Jolly with 88 Speed EVs it now outspeeds but SE now only does a max of 52% so unless you are really fishing for a crit then this won't work. The final change that absolutely needs to happen for this set to be viable is Taunt > Thunder Wave . This let's it potentially come in on Kyurem-B, get an intimidate off and Taunt to at least neuter Kyurem-B's staying power.
Having Taunt also lets Gyrados stop potential hazard setters from laying SR and spikes because we all know Team 1 will love having them down with Kyurem-B in the wings.
There is still a major flaw with this Gyrados though: Jolly and the 88 Speed EVs neuter either it's offense or bulk (or both slightly). If we keep the bulk we have a rather good chance that Gyra's Sub can take a -1 Atk D-tail but then SE does even less damage since we nerfed the Atk (though taunted Kyurem-B can't heal). If we keep the attack then Gyra's Sub can no longer take a D-tail with Kyurem-B at -1 Atk (at least not as reliably, see calcs) but it becomes more threatening to Kyurem-B and the other potential members of the team.
Just giving my two cents. I rather of like this poke though. Just needs some refining. Note: Kyurem-B already behind a sub is much more of a problem since intimidate won't work and Gyra hates taking SR and D-tail damage so it's not a very good check regardless. With proper prediction it can work well though.
Full Bulk Gyra
-1 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 84-100 (21.31 - 25.38%) -- possible 5HKO
168 Atk Gyarados Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Kyurem-B: 188-222 (41.4 - 48.89%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Full Offensive Gyra
-1 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 84-100 (22.52 - 26.8%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Gyarados Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Kyurem-B: 200-236 (44.05 - 51.98%) -- 13.28% chance to 2HKO
Why team 2 really needs to predict (i.e. D-tail + SR)
0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 126-148 (31.97 - 37.56%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 187-222 (47.46 - 56.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 84-100 (21.31 - 25.38%) -- possible 5HKO
168 Atk Gyarados Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Kyurem-B: 188-222 (41.4 - 48.89%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Full Offensive Gyra
-1 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 84-100 (22.52 - 26.8%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Gyarados Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Kyurem-B: 200-236 (44.05 - 51.98%) -- 13.28% chance to 2HKO
Why team 2 really needs to predict (i.e. D-tail + SR)
0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 126-148 (31.97 - 37.56%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 187-222 (47.46 - 56.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Interesting points. The thing, is, though, that if Kyurem-B is trying to stall out your Stone Edge PP by constantly Roosting, all you have to do is Thunder Wave... and its game over. Kyurem-B can't risk Substitute/Roost stalling of your Stone Edge PP, as if it's not behind a Substitute, one swift Thunder Wave will end its tirade.
Based on your analysis, let's imagine a scenario--a worst case scenario for Gyarados, in fact, where Stealth Rock is up, and Kyurem-B gets a substitute up to avoid Intimidate:
Scenario 1:
- Kyurem-B sets up substitute on a forced switch.
- Gyarados switches in and takes SR damage, sits at 81% from Leftovers recovery.
- You break the substitute with Stone Edge.
- Kyurem-B dragon tails you out.
Result: Kyurem-B has no substitute, a maximum of 87% health, Gyarados sits in the wings with around 65% health.
Scenario 2:
- Kyurem-B sets up substitute on a forced switch.
- Gyarados switches in and takes SR damage, sits at 81% from Leftovers recovery.
- Kyurem-B uses Hone Claws.
- You break the substitute with Stone Edge.
- Kyurem-B uses Substitute.
- Stone Edge.
- Substitute.
- Stone Edge.
- Substitute.
- Stone Edge.
Result: By this point, Kyurem-B has to hope for a Stone Edge miss, otherwise it's drained it's HP for absolutely nothing. It no longer has enough HP to Sub. So, you can either go for the kill with Stone Edge as it Roosts / switches out, or you can go for the Thunder Wave as it Roosts / Switches out. Either way, its been pretty much fought off and / or crippled.
Scenario 3:
- Kyurem-B sets up substitute on a forced switch.
- Gyarados switches in and takes SR damage, sits at 81% from Leftovers recovery.
- Kyurem-B uses Hone Claws.
- You break the substitute with Stone Edge.
- Kyurem-B uses Substitute.
- Stone Edge.
- Roost.
- Stone Edge.
- Substitute.
- Stone Edge.
- Roost
- Thunder Wave
Result: If Kyurem-B tries to alternate with Subs/Roost to further stall out Stone Edge PP, you can predict the Roost and go for Thunder Wave, crippling it.
This isn't even considering the possibilities that:
1) You prevent / spin away Stealth Rock.
2) Something ELSE gets Dragon Tailed as it breaks Kyurem-B's sub, which forces Gyarados in when Kyurem-B doesn't have a sub up, gets Intimidated.
Remember, in the same vein that Kyurem-B can try to stall out Stone Edge, Gyarados can set up a substitute during a predicted Roost/Substitute, as well, making Dragon Tail unable to break its substitute nearly 100% of the time. It's very feasible that you could get a Thunder Wave in at some point.
Hi guys! Glad to see this is back! I agree with ClubbingSealCub, we have to expect Team 1 to nominate hazard setters and spinblockers. I won't say anything more because I will be repeating what ClubbingSealCub said.
Btw, we are allowed to nominate and vote for both teams, right?
Btw, we are allowed to nominate and vote for both teams, right?
Your Gyrados is still slower however and while T-wave would tip the odds in your favor you're not that likely to catch Kyurem-B without a sub. Your Scenario 1 is what is almost guaranteed to happen since we already have Heatran to completely stop Kyurem (assuming it's not dead yet). Also, any other poke that can break a sub will have the same scenario 1 so this is hardly relevant. Scenario 2 and 3 both have a massive flaw: you're using at least 4 SE's. With only 80% accuracy you're at 60-80% odds to miss one SE now (depending on the count) which gives Kyurem-B either a free sub or roost. It's also much easier to predict on Kyurem-B's side since subbing on a SE just means he looses less hp and subbing on T-wave means a free sub. A misspredict or a miss (the later especially likely) and you're stalled out of SEs.
If either scenario 2 or 3 were to occur it's much safer to switch to Heatran on the predicted Sub/Roost as that way you're guaranteed a free sub against Kyurem-B. The main reason Kyurem-B can even stall you out is that it's faster. Simply making it Jolly and giving it the 88 Speed EVs like I said will make Scenario 2 and 3 never happen. Increasing the speed can let you keep up your T-wave shenanigans though I'd personally still prefer Taunt as it almost shuts down Kyurem-B.
Quick thoughts on scarf Keldeo: it's a very good Scarfer but also has a major flaw against Kyurem-B in that only one of it's moves can break a sub. If we use it to revenge kill something with any move other than Secret Sword and Kyurem-B gets a free Sub (or Roost if it was low health).
A solid counter to Heatran is Focus Sash Dugtrio but Gyrados can deal with it given a predicted double switch (very likely as that's the only way to trap Heatran with Kyurem-B in, other than an unlucky Roar). Gothitelle can still somewhat trap Heatran and deal with Gyrados better thanks to Tbolt though.
Agreed that it's a tough prediction game and about the Stone Edge probabilit of missing, but is that such a big deal? I didn't submit Gyarados to be the ultimate Kyurem-B counter--just that it CAN hold its own against it if need be and isn't walled by it. Meanwhile, it puts a ton of pressure on the other team. As you said, Heatran already walls Kyurem-B, and what threatens Heatran will likely be threatened by Gyarados...
The problem with Gyarados is that it's is in fact weak to Stealth Rock. It is evident that a hazard war will take place this round, as no shuffler can really meet maximum potential without support. Even if we do choose for ourselves a reply to spikestacking, we can never be sure that hazards will be kept off the field. It's inability to handle Kyu-B isn't the only thing we should be considering in this still relatively early stage. I do agree with RedRascal's proposal of Taunt instead of TWave, because I'm seeing a more support oriented CTP unlike last round's offense upon offense.
With hazards still in mind, as well as support and possibly a little more offensive oomph, I think a good partner for heatran would instead be Choice Specs Latios.
Latios @ Choice Specs
Timid, levitate
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Draco Meteor / Psyshock / Trick / Surf
Latios seems pretty generic to use right now, once again pushing us towards the stage of 'malleability' where the team could go either offense or defense. However, generic is what we need. The Lati@s / Heatran core is pretty widely known already, so I'm sure that it will have success here. In this situation, Latios is a huge help to this team. What I think is its biggest asset is its speed, power, and Trick.
I'm sure you all know that 110 is above and beyond fast, allowing Latios to outspeed the Musketeers and most of the Therians. In this situation, Latios's speed is once again a positive factor. Outspeeding Kyurem-B is only scratching the surface of what it helps with. With Psyshock, you can defeat every single fighting in OU- since they are all outsped. You can outspeed all ground types (minus Dugtrio) and KO them with Surf. This benefits Heatran a lot- as having ground types and fighting types removed helps it fire off it's powerful STABs with a little less hesitancy. Having a inb4 check to lead Terrakion and bulky Landorus-T who are both viable SR setters for team 1 will also help with problems in the near future.
Not only is the 110 speed great but it also suits Latios's massive 130 SpA. The term 'Draco Spam' have originated from none other but yours truly. When coupled with Specs, there are few things that can survive a Draco Meteor if unresisted. It's a flat out OHKO to every Dragon there is in OU (bar Multiscale Dnite but it's a 2HKO there) Why is this useful? It not only puts pressure on team 1's current Kyurem-B, but it also forces Team 1 to be wary of Latios when selecting cleaning sweepers- as slower Dragons are now out of the question. Latios's power can be utilized to quick-kill some threat you want gone, or to quick-clean after the opponent has been beaten down.
The last ace up the sleeve is Latios's Trick. This is a handy tool that makes Deo-D and friends a not-100% counter to Latios- as being tricked specs really ruins their supporting capabilities. Latios's speed helps it be a back up shutdown to slower setup sweepers (of which there are many) It also helps grab momentum if used correctly, and can give time for a teammate to set up as well. Should Team 1 turn towards shuffling, Trick will also be a tremendously useful tool as it is a cool way to put phazing to a screeching stop- lock the opponent into Roar and then Taun / attack without worry.
Latios should be considered when choosing teammembers.
With hazards still in mind, as well as support and possibly a little more offensive oomph, I think a good partner for heatran would instead be Choice Specs Latios.
Latios @ Choice Specs
Timid, levitate
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Draco Meteor / Psyshock / Trick / Surf
Latios seems pretty generic to use right now, once again pushing us towards the stage of 'malleability' where the team could go either offense or defense. However, generic is what we need. The Lati@s / Heatran core is pretty widely known already, so I'm sure that it will have success here. In this situation, Latios is a huge help to this team. What I think is its biggest asset is its speed, power, and Trick.
I'm sure you all know that 110 is above and beyond fast, allowing Latios to outspeed the Musketeers and most of the Therians. In this situation, Latios's speed is once again a positive factor. Outspeeding Kyurem-B is only scratching the surface of what it helps with. With Psyshock, you can defeat every single fighting in OU- since they are all outsped. You can outspeed all ground types (minus Dugtrio) and KO them with Surf. This benefits Heatran a lot- as having ground types and fighting types removed helps it fire off it's powerful STABs with a little less hesitancy. Having a inb4 check to lead Terrakion and bulky Landorus-T who are both viable SR setters for team 1 will also help with problems in the near future.
Not only is the 110 speed great but it also suits Latios's massive 130 SpA. The term 'Draco Spam' have originated from none other but yours truly. When coupled with Specs, there are few things that can survive a Draco Meteor if unresisted. It's a flat out OHKO to every Dragon there is in OU (bar Multiscale Dnite but it's a 2HKO there) Why is this useful? It not only puts pressure on team 1's current Kyurem-B, but it also forces Team 1 to be wary of Latios when selecting cleaning sweepers- as slower Dragons are now out of the question. Latios's power can be utilized to quick-kill some threat you want gone, or to quick-clean after the opponent has been beaten down.
The last ace up the sleeve is Latios's Trick. This is a handy tool that makes Deo-D and friends a not-100% counter to Latios- as being tricked specs really ruins their supporting capabilities. Latios's speed helps it be a back up shutdown to slower setup sweepers (of which there are many) It also helps grab momentum if used correctly, and can give time for a teammate to set up as well. Should Team 1 turn towards shuffling, Trick will also be a tremendously useful tool as it is a cool way to put phazing to a screeching stop- lock the opponent into Roar and then Taun / attack without worry.
Latios should be considered when choosing teammembers.
Though I like Specs Latios, the situation isn't ideal if Latios comes in when Kyurem-B is behind a Sub. Kyurem-B could take the Draco and then phaze out Latios with Dragon Tail (which 2HKOes if I am not wrong). Then we are shuffled into a Pokemon that is forced to switch, giving Cube time to Sub/Roost
Umm, where did the idea that each of our members has to counter Cube come from? We already have a hard counter in the form of Heatran. Unless they add something that could threaten the reliability of Heatran performing that job, we don't need to worry about what the rest of the team does against Cube since nothing it can do in one turn will stop Heatran from screwing it over. (Even Duggy has a stupidly hard time taking out Heatran. It has to predict the switch-in and come in at the same time or switch in without any hazards and a Sash intact)
Ginganinja already gave us the two steps we should take with our picks. We already did step one by choosing a hard counter to Cube. Now let's do step two and choose something to put Team 1 on their toes for their next pick.
Anyways, I don't have much ideas of what that should be atm. So far Keldeo looks like a solid pick but it being Choice Scarf isn't a good idea. We don't even know what we are looking to revenge kill yet. Team 1 may end up going for HP Ground Volcarona for whatever reason and then we'll be wishing we had a Scarf Terrakion instead. Personally, I like the idea of SubCM Keldeo. Most of this set's counters are defensive mons like Jellicent or Amoongus which are to be avoided in this challenge. Almost all of the rest of the Water/Fighting resists are Pursuit weak leaving Toxicroak (who needs Rain), Venusaur (who needs Sun), Gyarados and Dnite (who are weak to SR) as the only options left. On top of this, Substitute makes it harder to revenge kill Keldeo so even checking it becomes difficult.
Ginganinja already gave us the two steps we should take with our picks. We already did step one by choosing a hard counter to Cube. Now let's do step two and choose something to put Team 1 on their toes for their next pick.
Anyways, I don't have much ideas of what that should be atm. So far Keldeo looks like a solid pick but it being Choice Scarf isn't a good idea. We don't even know what we are looking to revenge kill yet. Team 1 may end up going for HP Ground Volcarona for whatever reason and then we'll be wishing we had a Scarf Terrakion instead. Personally, I like the idea of SubCM Keldeo. Most of this set's counters are defensive mons like Jellicent or Amoongus which are to be avoided in this challenge. Almost all of the rest of the Water/Fighting resists are Pursuit weak leaving Toxicroak (who needs Rain), Venusaur (who needs Sun), Gyarados and Dnite (who are weak to SR) as the only options left. On top of this, Substitute makes it harder to revenge kill Keldeo so even checking it becomes difficult.