Little Cup Viability Rankings

[v]

I use Zen Headbutt Scraggy, and have since it was first made available, specifically for Gunk/Koffing/that little pokeball mushroom guy. idk who else uses it, but it's really effective and nobody sees it coming. For the record, I run HJK/ZH/DD/Crunch. Drain Punch is good for facilitating longterm sweeps and using the scraggler to revenge kill, but after getting gunkfucked for life I decided to try HJK>DP and haven't looked back.

As for Koffing, I think it's on the cusp of C and B. While they aren't used often, Koffing also has Taunt, Torment, DBond, and Memento, all of which are great moves for something that has a bit of bulk to it like Koffing. It can do more than you expect, it's just that atm it doesn't do any of those things.

 

[Chieliee]

Corkscrew's post made me want to tryout Lickitung, and i am not disappointed. I used the Koffitung core (i like that name :P ) and to be honest, koffing was quite underwhelming (although i have not faced sand and only like 1 mienfoo in 3 battles) but lickitung though is a fucking beast. With it my team seemed pretty much invincible. Wishpassing (also to an Inner Focus mienfoo in the first game), clearing away status, and dealing out quite powerful returns when needed. It's bulk is just fucking monstrous. Seriously.

B-rank for sure. I'm almost tempted to copy oaiawesome here by saying: 'Name one non-ghost type special attacker that lickitung cannot beat' but i'm sure some of you can come up with some stuff. No mon is perfect though!

 

[SapphSabre777]

I nominate Aron for B or C rank, preferably C rank.

Aron's most notable niche is RP Rock Head and Head Smash, which with its STAB, can terrorize LC if given the chance. RP Aron is very good to use against some weakened Pokemon and does quite well in a late-game sweep when set up.

However, it will need some support from its partners, and RP is not full-proof. +2 Speed Aron yields 24 Speed (26 if Speed nature like Jolly), which is fast, but it can be outrun by Scarf users (base 65 Speed with Scarf will outrun the Adamant +2 Aron, base 85 with Scarf outruns the Jolly +2 variant). The only way it can outrun Scarf users is by getting +4 RP, which is very difficult to do considering that threats like Driblur, Hippopotas, and the infamous Mienfoo to name a few, are common nowadays. Also, the Eviolite's common appearance in LC prevents Aron from outright sweeping.

 

[Ray Jay]

Aron should be C Rank, and it's best set I would advocate is an offensive, non-set up spread with Stealth Rock and Head Smash, because it works quite well while forcing Murkrow switches or doing huge damage to switches. Also I never am able to set up Aron =/

 

[Delver]

I nominate Aron for B or C rank, preferably C rank.

Aron's most notable niche is RP Rock Head and Head Smash, which with its STAB, can terrorize LC if given the chance. RP Aron is very good to use against some weakened Pokemon and does quite well in a late-game sweep when set up.

However, it will need some support from its partners, and RP is not full-proof. +2 Speed Aron yields 24 Speed (26 if Speed nature like Jolly), which is fast, but it can be outrun by Scarf users (base 65 Speed with Scarf will outrun the Adamant +2 Aron, base 85 with Scarf outruns the Jolly +2 variant). The only way it can outrun Scarf users is by getting +4 RP, which is very difficult to do considering that threats like Driblur, Hippopotas, and the infamous Mienfoo to name a few, are common nowadays. Also, the Eviolite's common appearance in LC prevents Aron from outright sweeping.

My big complaint is that Aron has trouble with the most abundant pokemon in the game; being the quintuplet of Fighters in the teir. Timburr, for example (mind you with *NO* defensive investment) survives a switch in (head smash only does "15 - 18 of 24 HP, 62% - 75%") and can OHKO with mach punch (I lost the calc before i copy pasted it, but it was litterally like 110% minimum) due to aron not running sturdy (in which case head smash would break sturdy anyways). Defensive mienfoo only takes 38% - 47% and OHKO's with drain punch. These are the only two i did calcs for, but I doubt its any different for the others.

Now I'm sure that's hella obvious and everyone's like "thanks for pointing out the obvious dipshit." But I'm getting to something so shut up. Here it is: The Fighting types in the teir are arguably the hardest to deal with. They tend to run either very hard to work around sets (such as Riolu and croagunk), hard to switch into sets (Timburr and LO mienfoo), or just have very different counters depending on their set (Mienfoo). Basically, what im getting at, is relying on an Aron to sweep is just... subpar. You basically force yourself to run a teams worth of support to remove *one* mon. I might be explaining it poorly but to me it's just a waste of effort that, when it does work, would have been so much easier to do with something more effective.

At the end of the day though, none of this really makes it a *bad* mon. Its just a sweeper that requires you to deal with its checks and counters - big surprise. My point is if you look at a sweeper like drilbur, who's list of counters includes mons like *BRONZOR* ... It's a lot easier to remove bronzor than a mienfoo.

I can agree with a C ranking; even if my personal bias against it is telling me it should be lower.

PS "Base 65 and 85" (at least for me) is (ironically) less descriptive than just the stat, haha. You can get away with saying "18 speed scrafers can outspeed the jolly set" rather than the base stat. I mean you don't have to, its not a rule or anything; I just figured i should say something.

 

[Elevator Music]

Corkscrew's post made me want to tryout Lickitung, and i am not disappointed. I used the Koffitung core (i like that name :P ) and to be honest, koffing was quite underwhelming (although i have not faced sand and only like 1 mienfoo in 3 battles) but lickitung though is a fucking beast. With it my team seemed pretty much invincible. Wishpassing (also to an Inner Focus mienfoo in the first game), clearing away status, and dealing out quite powerful returns when needed. It's bulk is just fucking monstrous. Seriously.

B-rank for sure. I'm almost tempted to copy oaiawesome here by saying: 'Name one non-ghost type special attacker that lickitung cannot beat' but i'm sure some of you can come up with some stuff. No mon is perfect though!

Just wanted to echo this, Lickitung is definitely a B-rank Pokemon. With proper support its incredible, especially if you can get a burn on whatever Fighting-types your opponent is running. It pairs so well with Koffing or Misdreavus or any general anti-Fighting poke (since most of them lack recovery and are vulnerable to status).

 

[Gengan]

Aron - D Rank

Despite having Rock Head and STAB Head Smash, Aron is 4x weak to fighting. I'll stop there because that is literally all I need to say about Aron.

I guess that's not all I need to say. Aron just sucks in Little Cup. A 4x weakness to fighting puts it at the largest disadvantage ever in this metagame. It's also incredibly slow, dies quickly on the special side (aka Hydro Pump or Surf from Chinchou/Staryu), and... seriously. It's a D rank and that's all it should ever be. Remember what C-rank is actually for:

C rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in LC. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

Aron's niche of Head Smash + Rock Head is not that. The only thing threatened by that is Murkrow. D-rank.

 

[Delver]

I guess that's not all I need to say. Aron just sucks in Little Cup. A 4x weakness to fighting puts it at the largest disadvantage ever in this metagame. It's also incredibly slow, dies quickly on the special side (aka Hydro Pump or Surf from Chinchou/Staryu), and... seriously. It's a D rank and that's all it should ever be. Remember what C-rank is actually for:



Aron's niche of Head Smash + Rock Head is not that. The only thing threatened by that is Murkrow. D-rank.

I think you're being a little harsh, and i think it's because you're misunderstanding the reason some of us are saying it should be C rank. "Rock Head smashing" isnt it's niche, but rather being a check to murkrow. Threatening murkrow is actually *HUGE* because of how hard it is to do that and its rock typing does give it a Spec D boost which lets it tank special hits about as well as physical ones when sand is up. While I dont think Sweeping is its niche, I don't think its totally useless either the 3+support set rayjay mentioned sounds more like where it should be; though (while i have used the RP set in the past) I have never used that set. As for the x4 weakness to fighting, yeah its detrimental and a *HUGE* glaring flaw, but its nothing unmanagable. Missy, Drifloon, and sometimes even murkrow or a mienfoo of your own, a croagunk etc (lots of viable mons can be listed) can all come in on a fighting type switch in and have their way with it.

Long story short, i don't think Aron is some underated powerhouse primed to destroy entire teams. I do, however, think it pulls off a hard to fill niche (as a murkrow check) while simultaneously differentiating itself from other, more renown checks by having access to support moves (specifically Stealth rock) and still being able to pack a neutral punch without boosting. Personally, i think providing a reliable check to murkrow is a very notable niche in its own right, and a 4x weakness to fighting being a notable flaw that prevents it from being very effective. Which, as you've shown, is what the C teir should be filled with.

 

[Artemisa]

Aron does hardstop Murkrow's LO set and the rest and not many pokemon can do that without being 2HKO'd so that is a great niche it possesses. Aron for C definitely.

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I'd like to nominate Tirtouga for B, but imo I like it at A.
Reasons:
- It obtains the best boosting move in the game, imho: Shell Smash
- Has very good strong stabs and very high attack (Base 78 atk)
- Has Sturdy which acts as a focus sash without using the item
- Priority Aqua Jet which can fuck up the Sub + Roost Murkrow set after a SS
- Can be used as a support set with SR, Knock Off, Scald, and the Solid Rock rounds up the whole set to weaken SE moves
- IMO the best Shell Smasher in LC

 

[Delver]

Aron does hardstop Murkrow's LO set and the rest and not many pokemon can do that without being 2HKO'd so that is a great niche it possesses. Aron for C definitely.

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I'd like to nominate Tirtouga for B, but imo I like it at A.
Reasons:
- It obtains the best boosting move in the game, imho: Shell Smash
- Has very good strong stabs and very high attack (Base 78 atk)
- Has Sturdy which acts as a focus sash without using the item
- Priority Aqua Jet which can fuck up the Sub + Roost Murkrow set after a SS
- Can be used as a support set with SR, Knock Off, Scald, and the Solid Rock rounds up the whole set to weaken SE moves
- IMO the best Shell Smasher in LC

tirtouga was mentioned earlier in the thread, but at this point its been buried twice, so i appreciate the bump on the topic! Honestly, the only pokemon that I would even begin considering for S teir besides the ones already in it and Scraggy is tirtouga for all the reasons you've listed. It has a really powerful sweeper set and a damn good support set. It fits on any kind of team, though it loves the sandstorm support of sand teams. Anything else i can say about it has already been said. This is a bare minimum A mon.

 

[Electrolyte]

This has probably been brought up a bunch of times but nevertheless I would like to restate it.

I believe Hippopotas should be A tier.

The thing is one of the tankiest little guys in LC, seriously. With an eviolite, and it's good defenses, it has no trouble tanking fighting type hits and all that stuff while replying with a shaking EQ or just whrilwinding the opponent out. It of course gets SR, which is another bonus (lileep gets Ancient Power, yaaay) as well as Crunch to hit Missy decently hard and the famed Slack Off. Hippo can take a hit from any of the tier's hardest attackers and Toxic/Slack Off stall or just 2HKO with EQ. Plus, it provides SANDSTORM which of course Drilbur and Lileep could not function without. If you ever need a physical wall that can still punch, Hippopotas is your man.

Flaws? Well it's weak to water, which is kind of annoying because of how its low speed forces itself out in the face of nearly every water type in the tier. It's also weak to grass, which makes it weak to Ferroseed and Foongus. However, there are few water types that would mindlessly switch in on Hippo b/c EQ hits them all (Tirtouga/Chinchou) fairly hard. Foonguss and Ferro seed can be whittled down by EQ as well, even if it's a bad idea to attempt so.

 

[Oiawesome]

How is Solosis E?Solosis is amazing in this fast paced double rush meta with trick room and hitting both rushers on their weaker defense stat and can deal with evrey non Scraggy fighting type in LC.Solosis is in no way atrocious in this meta B or C imo. Also I support hippo for A.

 

[Delver]

This has probably been brought up a bunch of times but nevertheless I would like to restate it.

I believe Hippopotas should be A tier.

The thing is one of the tankiest little guys in LC, seriously. With an eviolite, and it's good defenses, it has no trouble tanking fighting type hits and all that stuff while replying with a shaking EQ or just whrilwinding the opponent out. It of course gets SR, which is another bonus (lileep gets Ancient Power, yaaay) as well as Crunch to hit Missy decently hard and the famed Slack Off. Hippo can take a hit from any of the tier's hardest attackers and Toxic/Slack Off stall or just 2HKO with EQ. Plus, it provides SANDSTORM which of course Drilbur and Lileep could not function without. If you ever need a physical wall that can still punch, Hippopotas is your man.

Flaws? Well it's weak to water, which is kind of annoying because of how its low speed forces itself out in the face of nearly every water type in the tier. It's also weak to grass, which makes it weak to Ferroseed and Foongus. However, there are few water types that would mindlessly switch in on Hippo b/c EQ hits them all (Tirtouga/Chinchou) fairly hard. Foonguss and Ferro seed can be whittled down by EQ as well, even if it's a bad idea to attempt so.

I'm just going to devil's advocate here, and point out some more flaws of the sand-o-pot-o-mus. Firstly, which you only touched on: it's fuckin' slow. This makes 2hko's on it so much more prevalent because it will rarely if ever be able to outspeed for a slack off or something of the like. Essentially, this makes it harder for it to check the physical threats it walls. Moving further down line its SpD stat pretty medicore without investment (which defeats the purpose of using it in the first place). Ground resist Poison and Rock and is immune to electric. Ignoring its weaknesses this basically means powerful neutral special attacks (of which there are a lot) coming off the likes of Abra and missy are really going to hurt. Now this may seem like a spiteful thing to bring up, like "of course it loses to special attackers, its a *physical* wall" Well, this becomes a lot more important when we address my last point: Sandstorm. Bear with me for a second. Sandstorm, we can all agree, is one of the largest selling points of hippopotas. But to me Its also one of the largest things holding it back from the A teir. its *because* of sandstorm that it becomes useless on any nonsand team. This rigidity in roles limits the number of teams we can fit it into which in turn increases the amount of "support" hippo needs to justify its slot. The best way I can explain that in other words would be, If i have a drilbur sweeper - I *need* hippo for it to work. However, if my team is just looking for a physical wall and doesn't particularly benefit from Sand, then Hippo is actually more detrimental. It's huge selling point in sand now runs you the probability of setting up sand *for* your opponent (if s/he likes it up for his team you can see the huge disadvantage you're at already) and it also is constantly softening up your non Ground- /Rock- / Steel- types. This ties back into my little tirade about its stats in that for non-sand teams you're opting for a slow, moderately powerful, physically bulky wall that damages the majority of your team per turn after its out instead of taking something like... iunno frillish - with good typing numerous immunities and decent mixed bulk and a supportive/offensive move pool to back it all up.

Basically, Hippopotas is good on sand teams, it pulls its weight and does more than just say "here you go" to your sweepers and some walls (lileep, defensive turt, etc). Off sand teams, hippo needs to run Sandforce, ironically an ability that only works in the sand, or run the risk of being more detrimental than helpful. I mean, maybe Sandforce Hippo is a really underrated Sand check. Personally I don't think it is - and i dont think it's something any one has ever really looked into. But combining all my current knowledge of the mon I'd have to say Hippo is where he belongs in the b teir

 

[Artemisa]

Basically, Hippopotas is good on sand teams, it pulls its weight and does more than just say "here you go" to your sweepers and some walls (lileep, defensive turt, etc). Off sand teams, hippo needs to run Sandforce, ironically an ability that only works in the sand, or run the risk of being more detrimental than helpful. I mean, maybe Sandforce Hippo is a really underrated Sand check. Personally I don't think it is - and i dont think it's something any one has ever really looked into. But combining all my current knowledge of the mon I'd have to say Hippo is where he belongs in the b teir

I agree, without Sand Stream Hippo is a shit pokemon, and there are many other pokemon that can be a better wall then it, like Lileep. Lileep can do basically everything Hippo can except Sand Stream, and still sponge special hits.

 

[Chieliee]

Hippo is also a great check to fighting types, which Lileep can't take on due to it's Rock-typing. I think I actually agree with Electrolyte on this one, Hippo for A. Its amazing bulk just makes it a pain to get rid of

 

[blarajan]

I don't know why we're judging Hippopotas and Sandstream separately. That's like judging Mienfoo without Regenerator...

If Sandstream is godly, which it is...the bringer of it is godly as well.

A.

 

[Celestavian]

I don't know why we're judging Hippopotas and Sandstream separately. That's like judging Mienfoo without Regenerator...

If Sandstream is godly, which it is...the bringer of it is godly as well.

A.

Exactly. I argued this in my first post in my thread and it is the same reason why I said Snover should be in A. If Snover gets A rank even though it's weather has pretty much no abusers at all besides itself, why is Hippopotas B when we have Drilbur, Sandshrew, and Lileep who are the best sweepers and one of the best walls respectively? Besides Sand Stream, it is also a great physical tank with an overlooked 70 Attack stat which allows its Earthquake to actually have some power uninvested. Solid SR setter, Whirlwind, reliable recovery, and the physical bulk to switch into Mienfoo's Hi Jump Kicks without a resist, puts Hippopotas solidly into A.

 

[Delver]

I'm just going to devil's advocate here

Sandstorm. Bear with me for a second. Sandstorm, we can all agree, is one of the largest selling points of hippopotas. But to me Its also one of the largest things holding it back from the A teir. its *because* of sandstorm that it becomes useless on any nonsand team. This rigidity in roles limits the number of teams we can fit it into which in turn increases the amount of "support" hippo needs to justify its slot. The best way I can explain that in other words would be, If i have a drilbur sweeper - I *need* hippo for it to work. However, if my team is just looking for a physical wall and doesn't particularly benefit from Sand, then Hippo is actually more detrimental. It's huge selling point in sand now runs you the probability of setting up sand *for* your opponent (if s/he likes it up for his team you can see the huge disadvantage you're at already) and it also is constantly softening up your non Ground- /Rock- / Steel- types. This ties back into my little tirade about its stats in that for non-sand teams you're opting for a slow, moderately powerful, physically bulky wall that damages the majority of your team per turn after its out instead of taking something like... iunno frillish - with good typing numerous immunities and decent mixed bulk and a supportive/offensive move pool to back it all up.

However, if my team is just looking for a physical wall and doesn't particularly benefit from Sand, then Hippo is actually more detrimental. It's huge selling point in sand now runs you the probability of setting up sand *for* your opponent (if s/he likes it up for his team you can see the huge disadvantage you're at already) and it also is constantly softening up your non Ground- /Rock- / Steel- types. This ties back into my little tirade about its stats in that for non-sand teams you're opting for a slow, moderately powerful, physically bulky wall that damages the majority of your team per turn after its out instead of taking something like... iunno frillish - with good typing numerous immunities and decent mixed bulk and a supportive/offensive move pool to back it all up.

Maybe I'm missing the part where I discussed Sandstream separately and not as intregal part of using Hippo. The fact remains is that to make Hippo competatively viable in comparison to other walls it needs team "support." ie) a team that benefits from sand. Snover is different in this regard because there are no mons that benefit from Hail (at least in the same regaurds as say Drilbur or Lileep or Tirtouga), so simply be replacing sand the hail is a benefit to the team and acting as a decent revenge killer to drilbur doesnt hurt either. In other words, Every team needs a sandcheck (like snover) but not every team needs to set up sand. Essentially Sandstream limits the kinds of teams that Hippo can functionally be apart of to *only* sand teams. It makes him less flexible - why would I run him over things like Lilleep or vullaby who have similar bulk physically and superior bulk specially?

If this came off as particularly hostile, it wasn't intentional, I'm -as i said - Devil's advocating for the sake of thread discussion.

 

[Rowan]

Delver, I disagree. Hippopotas can run Sand Force, which doesn't detriment your team, yet can still be useful for powering up Earthquake against Sand Teams. He's not a useless mon that you just dump on sand teams 'cos you have to, like Drought Ninetales in OU. He's a good physical wall with the ability to pHaze, set up rocks and deal decent damage with Earthquake. He can fit a good niche of a bulky physical wall outside of sand, yet with sand he helps some of the best pokemon in LC function properly, which makes him one of the best support pokemon in the metagame. Definitely A tier for me.

 

[Artemisa]

Have people tried using physical wall hippo outside of sand or is it just theory? Really hippo can be outclassed as a physical wall by other pokemon who can perform it's job better, the only thing it has that other walls don't is it's ability to phaze out anything that sets up. Hippo just supports sand teams and that's the only thing it can do that makes it good other then that it's just a wall that gets raped by special attacking moves.

Sand Stream helps the rock type pokemon boost sp def, but if you add them to the team you are just asking to get destroyed by fighting types. I'm not saying all you have is rock types it's just that sand teams have limited amount of space to build a successful team. Hippo / Drilbur / Lileep (or Sandshrew) / Tirtouga / Filler / Filler is what you have in a team and does two slots need to help you be able to sweep (Spike Stacking), eliminate threats that harm the sweeper (Magnemite), something to eliminate hazards against your sand team (Spinner or Magic Bouncer), or something to scout the other team and knock off things (Mienfoo). Imo, B rank because adding hippo will just limit your team to a few amount of pokemon.

 

[blarajan]

I just don't think it really matters about using Hippopotas without Sandstream. It is definitely an integral part of using Hippopotas...as Hippopotas kind of sucks without it. But it DOES have it.

And if I want a Sand team, I use Hippopotas. Sand is so good this metagame, I don't know why that's considered a limitation.

 

[Artemisa]

Imo running hippo means you are running a Sand Team, which means that you most likely want to add like 2 or 3 abusers (not counting Hippopotas) and it only leaves you with two slots or three slots. Don't get me wrong, sand is really good this metagame, but sometimes bringing sand just causes a negative effect on your team by the lack of pokemon used to cover threats in the metagame which is why they can be picked apart easily.

 

[danilo]

That's false in its entirety. When you choose to use Hippo, you're not forced to use sandshrew, drilbur, lileep, and friends; those are just popular choices for obvious reasons. i used to run a sandstall team with hippo as the defensive pivot. i didnt have drilbur or lieep or sandshrew. i just used hippo for his ability to phaze, toxic random mons, hit hard with eq, access to instant recovery, and SAND STREAM which chips away at hp bars. hippo is pretty good even if you're not bringing his sand friends to your team

 

[Artemisa]

Note I said most likely, since most sand teams have to do with Sand Rush, etc, so right now most sand teams are having pokemon slot syndrome because of this. It doesn't mean it's impossible to make a good team with Sand Rush, it means that it's more difficult building a solid Dual Rush team.

 

[Woodchuck]

How does this reflect in any way on Hippopotas's viability?
Hippopotas is a great supporter and wall with Stealth Rock and instant recovery and can be a great addition to teams without the "drawback" of running Sand Rush. Whatever the synergy issues of double rush are, those issues would affect Sandshrew's viability much more than Drilbur's.