np: NU Stage 7 - Free Bird

[MMF]

If you're not running banded Sawk right now you're doing it wrong. Scarf accomplishes /nothing/ in this meta.

 

[jake]

Yeah, CB Sawk is the infinitely more dangerous option right now and while Scarf Sawk is still alright, it's really nowhere near as gamebreaking. I'd rather be using a few more interesting options for Scarf users especially given how much can take advantage of you being locked in (since I'm finding that a lot of Pokemon are carrying Protect, like Snover / Glaceon etc). Stuff with U-turn like Braviary and Cinccino (and Rotom-F with Volt Switch) are pretty neat, and Scarf Cinccino even offers you extra insurance against opposing weather sweepers too. You might not see it that frequently on the ladder yet, but it's really CB Sawk that you should be worried about (and neither of those mons are going to cut it against that variant).

 

[Axa]

Intimidate Arbok right now is a shaky check to Sawk - if Sawk is running Adamant, Jolly Arbok outspeeds it and has a 75% chance of OHKOing it with Gunk Shot (provided it hits, of course). If Sawk is running Jolly, though, then Arbok is pretty much boned. You could run Impish for much more safety, but if Sawk predicts and uses Stone Edge and manages to hit twice, then Arbok still gets 2HKO'd and it will always be outsped. And let's not even begin on if Sawk uses Earthquake.

(Speaking of which, 252/252+ Intimidate Luxray only have a 58% chance of getting 2HKO'd from Jolly EQ... if only it had recovery.)

 

[ebeast]

Banded Sawk has always been a wrecking ball, and I've always made sure that I had more than one check/counter to it. About what Sweet Jesus said, I've actually been using a Hail team with CB Mold Breaker Sawk and it's been working out pretty nicely. Snover and Sawk both help each other out in their own way; Sawk gets rid of Stealth Rock users so Snover and Hail abusers can run wild and Snover's Snow Warning helps Sawk shred past teams easier as it weakens the recovery of Amoonguss, Tangela, and Musharna while the Hail wears down Misdreavus. Duosion is still around, but its bulk is nowhere near the level of Musharna's and is easier to take down with just a normal offense team.

Speaking of Hail abusers out of the time I have played I think that Glaceon and Rotom-F are the most prominent abusers of Hail in the tier at the moment. SubProtect Glaceon is pretty cool as it can stall with Sub and Protect and fire off extremely powerful STAB Blizzards whenever it needs to. Rotom-F can now abuse Blizzard much more reliably and works great on a Scarf set or even on a Substitute + Pain Split set. SubSplit Rotom-F is a monster and also works well alongside Sawk as it also removes Alomomola, Amoonguss, and Tangela from the game and generally anything that dares to switch into it.

Another Pokemon I have found cool in Hail has been Carracosta as it provides a cool tank with Solid Rock, Stealth Rock, great STAB coverage, priority, and a resistance to Fire-type attacks. The Fire-type resistance is especially crucial as Emboar destroys a lot of Hail teams on its own and Specially based Emboar has been getting more popular so Alomomola won't cut it some of the time. While Carracosta won't be taking a Focus Blast from Emboar anytime soon either, it can at least retaliate against the Special variants with Aqua Jet if need be or just come into a Choiced Fire Blast and go from there.

 

[Oiawesome]

I just tried a AgilliCuno/StallRein/CB Sawk core on a hail team and it worked wonders,AgilliCuno is fucking devistating in this meta with that SpA ,LO and 120/120 STABS in hail,thats no joke but even with HP Ground SR users are still b*tchs and CB Sawk takes care of those easily and the hit both on diffrent spectrums,Sawk also has its problems with Alomamoongus and just those two pokemon in general and Articuno shits on both of those and stallrein wares down the opponents team so Sawk or 'Cuno can sweep easier .This core loves hazards and no DEFENSIVE poke can beat this core per'se but Charizard can Destroy this core if Stallrein goes down ill wite more later.

 

[MarshallLeRoy]

So I've had a couple of days to play around with hail, and here's some general observations:

-the tier is already equipped to handle this new weather, tons of great mons who already see plenty of usage are ready made counters and annoyances to hail

-Golurk in particular is brutal for hail, as Snover/Sawk/Duosion/BlizzardSpammer, a common hail core, has no real way to break through it. Golurk is so good against hail I think a Pursuit trapper or Sucker Puncher is needed just to stop him

-On the discussion that CB Sawk is much more useful than Scarf Sawk at the moment, I'd tend to disagree simply because of the Scarf's version to revenge kill threats, especially in Hail. The biggest reason to use Scarf is that Sawk outspeeds Cincinno, and it's unbelievable how many times an opponent will leave it in against Sawk, in my experience

-Otherwise Sawk is everywhere, but thanks to being a very straightforward Pokemon, is very containable. Right now it's a lot of fun to use Mold Breaker and Earthquake switch ins like Haunter that used to come in with impunity.

-I played Hail in Gen IV UU and some OU where basically slapping on pivots and two-three hail spammers were all one needed. This generation I'm surprised that Glaceon, such a dominant presence in hail last gen, is shockingly mediocre in the depths of NU. With so many fighting types and overall heavy hitters, Glaceon just doesn't last and misses the power that Specs would provide (since I generally need Scarf to be fast enough)

-The best hail teams are the ones that generally take advantage of hail as residual damage and some blizzard spam, but have at least 3 Pokemon (preferably four to fill all the gaps) that don't use Blizzard at all. In other words, Hail seems more effective as a complimentary battle effect, rather than offensive abuse like Sun/Rain

-Duosion is an absolute monster. Eviolite Max Defense Calm Mind Duosion seems to find all kinds of time to come in and set up. Really appreciates Golurk taken out though (I'm going to test Mawile as a partner, since it is a fantastic Golurk lure)

All in all, I'd say Hail is far from broken from my initial testing with and without using a hail team. While I have a feeling Snover will end up moving to a higher tier due to usage, I honestly have no problem having hail in the tier. It brings new mons into the limelight, and spices up an already diverse tier.

 

[Oiawesome]

Lol wut?Last time I checked Golurk is weak to ice,so its actualy bad agianst 93% of hail teams.

 

[MarshallLeRoy]

Lol wut?Last time I checked Golurk is weak to ice,so its actualy bad agianst 93% of hail teams.

Golurk can't switch into the Blizzard spammers of NU, but a lot of the support players in hail (re the ones that don't use Ice type moves primarily) get crapped all over by him. Since the support around the Blizzard spammers or the hail stallers are so crucial, especially given how many checks exist to them in NU, Golurk can prove to be a menace.

A lot of the Blizzard users can't safely switch into Golurk thanks to Earthquake/Drain Punch. So if I have Sawk or Duosion in, then the opponent switches to Golurk, suddenly I'm under a lot of pressure if I choice Close Combat, Focus Blast, or Psychic. I can't switch in any ice type save Articuno without taking a ton of damage.

It might seem like Golurk isn't great against hail, but in just a short time playing with Hail I noticed on multiple occasions its ability to put pressure offensively on those teams.

 

[Raseri]

Scarf Sawk is far from bad right now. In fact, Choice Scarf Fighting-types are probably as good as they've ever been. I've made 2 teams to abuse hail so far, each of them have run a Scarf Fighting-type. Emboar is amazing right now, scarf allows it to get the jump on many unsuspecting Pokemon. Against many hail teams it basically gets a kill if it gets a chance to switch in. On the other hand, Sawk's ability to spam Close Combat is amazing right now. Scarf is great, particularly outrunning the unboosted meta without issue. I am starting to fall for LO Mold Breaker Sawk. Running Sturdy in this meta is nearly useless with Snover everywhere, and the primary reason I never used LO before was because I wanted to keep Sturdy intact. LO is really handy right now as it still easily gets KOs against Sturdy Rock-types, but can also switch moves if needed. The extra residual damage can be kind of annoying, but I still find it to be better than CB right now.

I've also been experimenting with a more offensive Walrein set, though I was really disappointed to learn that it can't use Hydro Pump :(. Walrein's offensive stats are actually quite good, and it can still run Sub/Protect earlier in the game. I tend to reveal its strong attacks late game to clean up. So NU, what underrated hail sets have you found? What works well, but isnt used nearly as much as it should be? I'm intrigued :)

 

[HopelessTrainer]

Yesterday I did a random team (like always) and I‘m surprised, IS WORKING! xD

I did 25 battles, 23 Wins and 2 Loses, and I'm really boried about one thing: The two battles I lost were against Hail teams.

Why I lose? easy, Wartortle, he is brutally bulky and can defeat my Emboar without problems, and also can spin hazards, I think he is a nice partner for Hail Teams.

About Sawk... call me noob (Isn‘t even a lie xD), but IMO is rubbish, I tried to use him a lot of times, but never do a shit, specially the Scarf Sawk.

Just to end... In this team I'm using Seismitoad, and, in my opinion, is AWESOME, he wins against the 85% of the leads, and can set up rocks without problem, and also has Water Absorb, really useful as pivot or directly wall water types.

That's all at the moment, thanks for read xD

 

[Oiawesome]

I just had a idea:Life Orb Walrein. Ill post more when i test it, but Ice Body heals off Life Orb recoil and LO Wailrein actualy hits quite hard. With STAB BLIZZARD in hail and STAB Surf to back it up, and also its huge defenses helps out so it dosent die super fast like other hail sweepers.

 

[watashi]

Glaceon is probably a better option if you're looking for a Life Orb sweeper due to it having the highest Special Attack in the tier, although Surf does help Walrein out a bit. The main problem is that both of them are pretty slow; I'd rather use Rotom-F or even Vanilluxe as a Life Orb sweeper instead since they outpace Samurott, Ludicolo, and Adamant Sawk, which are all important targets to cover.

 

[DragonBorn]

Im waiting for Guts Flareon to be released i already have a set in mind for him(or her) when they release it.

 

[FireMage]

Im waiting for Guts Flareon to be released i already have a set in mind for him(or her) when they release it.

It has already been released.

@Below Dream World Café Expansion made female DW Eevee available, The launch of the DW released (Male) DW Eeveelutions.

 

[Wobble]

Black Sludge Skuntank should not be standard. It's complete inability to KO Golurk after rocks or any sort of small damage is a tremendous liability as a trapper, seeing as any Golurk set KOs it with Earthquake.

Golurk is FAR too common and WAY too dangerous to repeatedly lose because Skuntank got destroyed after leaving it with 8 percent left.

Heck, even though it isn't as dominant as it once was, Black Sludge doesn't even let Skuntank effectively do it's job against Musharna, as it just results in huge stall battles of switching, since you can't 2HKO Musharna without Dread Plate...


Dread Plate Skuntank or bust.

 

[ebeast]

Black Sludge/Leftovers is important so that Skuntank can keep doing its job over and over and is especially important in a Hail metagame where otherwise it would be losing to things it can beat due to residual damage building up. While Dread Plate/Black Glasses are a cool item on Skunk, there is no way that Black Sludge should not be standard and if you wanted a more powerful trapper there is always Absol. Skuntank's main niche is not just being a trapper, but one that is reliable in its job due to its typing and resilience against common Ghost- and Psychic-type Pokemon, which Black Sludge provides.

 

[JCM.]

Which item is better for Skuntank on a Hail team? Black Sludge or Dread Plate? I was thinking Dread Plate because Poison coverage is useless as my 3 Ice-types cover Grass types pretty well. So? What are your thoughts about it?

 

[Audiosurfer]

Black Sludge Skuntank should not be standard. It's complete inability to KO Golurk after rocks or any sort of small damage is a tremendous liability as a trapper, seeing as any Golurk set KOs it with Earthquake.

Golurk is FAR too common and WAY too dangerous to repeatedly lose because Skuntank got destroyed after leaving it with 8 percent left.

Heck, even though it isn't as dominant as it once was, Black Sludge doesn't even let Skuntank effectively do it's job against Musharna, as it just results in huge stall battles of switching, since you can't 2HKO Musharna without Dread Plate...


Dread Plate Skuntank or bust.

In addition to what EBeast said, Golurk and Musharna aren't as prominent as they were since hail was unbanned, so not being able to instantly kill them isn't as bad as you think.

 

[Annoyer]

After playing lots of matches on the ladder, I think the hail hype has died down. Only in about 5% of my matches I face Hail which is actually kind of annoying since I want to see how my team plays against the newest aspect of this meta. Anyways, here are some of my thoughts on Hail:

• Specially Defensive Gurdurr is actually a much better spread than it was before since it is a much better Hail check and doesn't get 2HKOd by Blizzards while it can just boost and recover the HP with Drain Punch
• Throh is a monster; I've been using it on a spikestacking team and it is nothing short of excellent, it does a number to most teams I face and really helps my sweepers clean in the endgame (I was using a resttalk circle throw ice punch set btw)
• Samurott does really well in this meta as zeb said before; SD sets destroy a lot of teams since Hail can easily deal with its main two counters: Amoonguss and Alomomola, Blizzard is really cool on rott since it allows it to KO Amoonguss after some residual damage or a 2 layers of Spikes
• Emboar is one of the best antimeta pokes I have abused, I have been abusnig a sub special Emboar and nothing can take a Fire Blast/Focus Blast too well and it forces many switches, Snover is a free sub as well; its other sets are great as well but constant recoil from Flare Blitz on the choiced sets and Hail allow Emboar to get KOd easily
• Although Dwebble doesn't really benefit or lose anything from Hail, I tried it out for the first time and it is actually a really underrated mon, with a spread of max speed and enough hp and defense to avoid being ohkod by cb sawk stone edge, it can set up SR and a layer of Spikes nearly every game, it saves the slot for having a Spiker and a SRer although Dwebble doesn't do much else; I'd recommend trying it out DWEBBLE IS KRAB
• Golurk isn't that bad in this meta as many others have said, it surely got worse due to Hail/Blizzspam, but it is a good teammate on Hail teams giving them a second check to Fighting-types (along with Duosion ofc); I've been utilizing a Substitute set and it has done pretty well, maybe it's something to try :)
• Although the main and best Snover set is the specially defensive eviolite one, Snover can also use some pretty "gimmicky" sets since honestly the specially defensive doesn't do much for me when I use it and I usually sac it, CB Snover was fun to use such as OHKOing Golurk with Wood Hammer but since it doesn't get EQ its not a lure for Emboar; a scarf set is cool so you can surprise revenge kill threats such as nonscarf Braviary; these sets aren't really fantastic but you should try them out if you aren't finding any success with the Specially Defensive set (which is also a free sub for mons like Rotom-F and Glaceon)
• On Piloswine nowadays, I like to run Stone Edge over either Icicle Spear or Ice Shard which helps out against Hail threats such as Rotom-F and Articuno, pig is still an excellent offensive tank and even better due to its Ice-type resistance (Thick Fat)
• Regice is an absolute beast, the meta has gotten a bit more specially oriented which is great for Regice. Although the RestTalk set provides Regice the most recovery, the twave+3 attacks is pretty great since Focus Blast allows it to wreck most Ice-types that wouldnt care about tbolt (like Snover, Rotom-F and Glaceon). Although I haven't used Rock Polish in this meta, I think it would do a good job of sweeping since its really powerful and has excellent coverage; just take out Emboar and you're good
• Finally, Destiny Bond is pretty cool on Haunter. I've been using a scarfset to clean games pretty easily with its good coverage and typing. Destiny Bond gives me a last-minute response to dangerous threats that I can't OHKO such as Sawk, Skuntank, or Braviary. Destiny Bond is also great on the LO set. SubDisable lost some of its merit with Hail making it so that it can't Substitute repeatedly as much anymore.

Anyways that was just some of my thoughts (EDIT: holy fuck I didn't think it looked that big) on Hail in this metagame. cheers ~~~

 

[marilli]

Which item is better for Skuntank on a Hail team? Black Sludge or Dread Plate? I was thinking Dread Plate because Poison coverage is useless as my 3 Ice-types cover Grass types pretty well. So? What are your thoughts about it?

The main point of Crunch < Poison Jab isn't really about hitting Grass types.... it mainly makes sure that Fighting-types can't switch in on him for free - and Hail isn't exactly a great counterplay on them.

 

[Sidfrid]

After playing lots of matches on the ladder, I think the hail hype has died down. Only in about 5% of my matches I face Hail which is actually kind of annoying since I want to see how my team plays against the newest aspect of this meta.

Totally agreed, perma-hail will just stay in the form of wheather stall. This will add new plays styles appart of the traditional bulky offense that is by a lot the prefered playstyle. And if the predictions are correct the add of Roselia to the NU tier will just make stall more viable.

 

[jake]

preface: if you have not read this post already, please read it.

I've had a few people ask me about voting, and here's how it is going to go down. I am putting up an alt identification thread of the top 100 battlers on the NU ladder in about five days - that is, December 23rd. I know that there is holiday stuff and whatnot going on, but this thread will only require you to bold the names of your alternate accounts in a post so I seriously hope that you guys can find just two minutes to make a post. If you are absolutely unable to make said post, you may PM me the names of your alts beforehand.

I am requiring current Senate members to follow the same rules as everyone else if you wish to vote. Get yo lazy butts in gear. >:|

In regards to what I'm looking for out of potential voters and to just clear up some misconceptions before people start bitching:

• I am not looking for any specific numbers. You do not need to achieve 55 deviation and a certain Glicko2 rating to be able to vote. However, I am looking for general trends; obviously being higher on the ladder will improve my initial opinion of you, but more than anything I'm looking to see that you actually play a significant amount of NU games and have the necessary experience to back up whatever you're talking about.
• Having many alternate accounts on the ladder will not make me any more likely to pick you to vote. I don't care if you have fifteen 7-0 accounts sitting at 1750 - try to consolidate your efforts on one or two, please!
• Even if you were to be #1 on the NU ladder, you are not guaranteed to have a vote. As I said in the previous post, you must make significant and intelligent contributions in this thread and others in the NU subforum.
• All voters are selected upon my discretion. I won't be able to have everyone vote, so don't be offended if you're not picked. Try harder next time!

If you have any questions, feel free to VM me. This thread will continue to host discussion on hail and the metagame in general until the 23rd, when I will post a suspect discussion thread and we can start debating whether or not hail is broken & get votes in by the end of the month. There will also be a few changes to the Senate, which I will deal with then when I post that thread.

Merry posting, ladies and gents. :)

 

[Raseri]

I'm really liking hail offense right now, blizzard is really hard to switch into, and the few things that can tank them easily (Regice, Lickilicky, Wartortle?) are pretty easy to wear down with any of the other 4 members you have. But hail aside, I really want to talk about Fire-types.


No one is surprised that Fire-types got better when Hail was introduced, but man are they good. When I think of Fire-types, I generally think of Emboar, Torkoal, and Charizard. But this metagame has allowed others like Camerupt, Lampent and even Rapidash to flourish. Fire attacks are simply really spammable right now, with few resists, and the resists generally not being able to switch in that often anyways.

Scarf Charizard is probably the one that scares me the most, its really fast, strong and rips a lot of offensive hail teams to shreds (my team). I could imagine any fast Fire-type being really good right now tbh.

I could go on and talk about all of them, but I wonder what you guys think of Fire-types right now? Who has a fire in their heart they just want to let out?

 

[ium]

ok some of my experiences and thoughts.

this has been brought up on irc before and i'm a bit surprised that it hasn't been mentioned here, but knock off sawk seems even better in this metagame. think about it: musharna's recovering capabilities are severely hampered in hail and most of the stuff left with decent to reliable recovery include stuff like duosion (which is pretty popular right now), misdreavus, and golbat. knock off really limits their ability to switch into sawk which will make it easier to plow through them later on in the match.

during most of this round, i have been using rest + sleep talk regice, but it takes way too long to wear down certain ice-types and just can't do much to piloswine at all. on the other hand, thunder wave & three attacks regice is definitely an amazing set from when i tried it a few times. my only issues with it is the fact that it absolutely needs the hp to keep tanking hits throughout the match so hazards really shit on it. alomomola is really cool to pair alongside regice because of wish and the fact that it can even act as a secondary check to most ice-types should you go with a 252 def / 252 sdef spread.

also, piloswine is definitely cool, but it needs to use stone edge or rock slide to have an easier time against stuff like rotom-f. the good thing is that it has slight room for it. i really dislike losing ice shard, so i may be trying out rock slide over icicle spear since i use earthquake more often anyway. thick fat gives it a huge upper hand; it's pretty amazing how well it still tanks hits without special defense investment.

lastly, carracosta has kind of been a mixed bag for me. i'm just using shell smash with solid rock and mystic water. it's a neat check to flying-types and emboar, but some special variants of the latter have been popping up sometimes. in addition, it really doesn't tank ice-type attacks that well from the likes of glaceon. however, it does get several opportunities to set up shell smash and aqua jet is always neat.

as for things i may be aiming to try out still, i'm definitely interested in spike-stacking and fire-types. things like regice and piloswine really hate getting worn down by spikes, and can make it really hard for them to keep up against hail offense. i am also interested in some of the lesser-seen fire-types such as rapidash and combusken since they can reach a decent speed and ohko a lot of the stuff seen on hail teams. i will probably give those a go and see what i end up with. :0

 

[watashi]

speaking of fire-types, sunny day charizard is possibly one of the best counters to hail currently, being able to cancel out hail and smash snover if it tries to come in. every hail abuser that is not scarfed and is outsped and destroyed. even walrein loses to boosted solarbeams, while surf fails to ko back in the sun. the stealth rock weakness is crippling, but many teams lead with snover, allowing you to set up sun and usually ko the opponent's rock-type.

Hide

Charizard @ Leftovers / Heat Rock
Trait: Solar Power
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- SolarBeam
- Sunny Day
- Roost / Air Slash