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UU Suspect Discussion - Mew
- Thread starter kokoloko
- Start date
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Super Mario Bro
All we ever look for
It's not only because of "fun", but it's also because Mew prevents people from breezing through every match on autopilot. Most Pokemon in this metagame are very predictable, so it's easy to switch in 'X' Pokemon and proceed with life as usual. Mew's presence in the metagame prompts people to manage risks while teambuilding and playing, since 'this' wall or 'that' revenge killer won't always be able to stop it. I like that because it makes the tier more challenging overall.
So sure, banning Mew might be the "right" thing to do, but its absence would change the scope of teambuilding and gameplay in a way that's less than ideal, in my view.
So sure, banning Mew might be the "right" thing to do, but its absence would change the scope of teambuilding and gameplay in a way that's less than ideal, in my view.
I respectfully disagree with all the content of this post. First off, I would not at all say the majority of UU Pokemon are predictable. Kingdra runs 3 very different sets, Heracross can bypass Scarf counters with a SD set, Roserade can either be a team supporter or a nuke (with radically different switches), Snorlax can tank hits forever with RestTalk, dish out damage with an offensive set, or even set up on you with Curse, Chandelure has 3 different types of set that all require different choices to play around, and these are just some of the most used Pokemon off the top of my head. UU really does not lack diversity, and even if it did, one Pokemon could not possibly bring it.
Mew's versatility (on paper any way) is down right dangerous. Switches into NP are typically terrible switches to SD and vice versa. But really, thats almost moot, as really Mew can bypass almost any check or counter with the appropriate coverage move/resist berry. If (that's the key word) this versatility is too good, it should be banned. What's fun for you might not be for others. I respect your opinion, but I don't really think the metagame was stale without Mew, and if Mew is too good, it should be banned. However, I'm going to echo koko from the Hail suspect discussion. Mew is 20th in usage iirc, and I just haven't faced it with enough good players to determine if the great layout on paper transfers to the game. I'll do some serious Mew testing and get back with a better opinion, I just wanted to state the problems I had with the argument of the quoted post.
Just reminding everyone that the deadline to apply for this vote is in 48 hours!!!
You should really take advantage of this opportunity if you're looking to earn yourself a nice Tiering Contributor badge, just saying.
PS. Send your applications to both RT. and myself.
You should really take advantage of this opportunity if you're looking to earn yourself a nice Tiering Contributor badge, just saying.
PS. Send your applications to both RT. and myself.
I've been laddering with SD Mew and I must say I found it FAR more effective than NP Mew. The Drain Punch recovery combined with Sucker Punch priority is too good to pass up, allowing Mew to stick around longer and kill more things. Scarf Flygon / Scarf Darmanitan / Scarf Victini cannot stop this Mew's rampage thanks to the latter move. Scarf Chandelure is forced to lose its Scarf to avoid Sucker Punch, whereas non-Scarfed variants are quickly taken out by +2 Zen Headbutt. With Sucker Punch Mew can even afford to go Adamant. I've swept many games with SD Mew, not something that I was able to achieve with the NP variant, which was stuck in its rather mediocre speed tier. Also it seems like people are far more prepared for special threats than offensive threats, packing the likes of Snorlax and Umbreon moreso than Slowbro or Rhyperior, for instance, another advantage tipping towards SD Mew's favor.
I've also been messing around with a BP Mew set, with mixed results. The utility of passing NP, CM, or SD boosts is certainly a major asset for the team. However, this Mew variant experiences quite a 4MSS, and it's far less threatening on its own. The lack of coverage somewhat makes it easier to phaze Mew, too, such as with Blastoise. Mew was certainly an effective BP mon, but this set drastically dampens Mew's own ability to plow through teams and threaten the opponent. The trade-off between utility and power was tangible through my play experience. It's not nearly as good as Smeargle or Venomoth, which can sleep opponents to aid in a safe BP switch, nor Gorebyss, which can pass Shell Smash boosts, imo.
Equating Mew to DPP Salamence is pretty laughable, btw. Salamence was not simply unpredictable and versatile, but it was a NUKE with access to DRAGON DANCE. Mispredicting against Salamence would often leads to irreversible damage, unlike Mew's case. Combine Mew + Kingdra together and you have a DPP Salamence, lol.
I've also been messing around with a BP Mew set, with mixed results. The utility of passing NP, CM, or SD boosts is certainly a major asset for the team. However, this Mew variant experiences quite a 4MSS, and it's far less threatening on its own. The lack of coverage somewhat makes it easier to phaze Mew, too, such as with Blastoise. Mew was certainly an effective BP mon, but this set drastically dampens Mew's own ability to plow through teams and threaten the opponent. The trade-off between utility and power was tangible through my play experience. It's not nearly as good as Smeargle or Venomoth, which can sleep opponents to aid in a safe BP switch, nor Gorebyss, which can pass Shell Smash boosts, imo.
Equating Mew to DPP Salamence is pretty laughable, btw. Salamence was not simply unpredictable and versatile, but it was a NUKE with access to DRAGON DANCE. Mispredicting against Salamence would often leads to irreversible damage, unlike Mew's case. Combine Mew + Kingdra together and you have a DPP Salamence, lol.
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
Seriously if you guys let me vote then UU would be so much better, we could be freed from the evils of broken things like Chandelure and Hail.
But not today I suppose, not today so instead I'm hoping that somehow my post will influence you voters.
Mew should be banned because it is too strong of an offensive threat. That threat comes from not only it's moderate initial power but more so the fact it can run a variety of sets both physical and special. Counters to one physical set, Sableye for instance, are completely destroyed by special sets. Mew is so powerful that it cannot even be reliably checked as Baton Pass sets can almost always get a pass with Rock Polish and then something else. Even if you know Mew's set, the most dangerous sets which are Nasty Plot and Swords Dance can completely destroy defensive and offensive teams respectively because of power, speed and coverage. Kingdra also has enough bulk to consistently set up and even use a stall breaker set which renders almost all of his defensive counters useless, putting unfair pressure on stall teams. That's why Mew is broken.
But not today I suppose, not today so instead I'm hoping that somehow my post will influence you voters.
Mew should be banned because it is too strong of an offensive threat. That threat comes from not only it's moderate initial power but more so the fact it can run a variety of sets both physical and special. Counters to one physical set, Sableye for instance, are completely destroyed by special sets. Mew is so powerful that it cannot even be reliably checked as Baton Pass sets can almost always get a pass with Rock Polish and then something else. Even if you know Mew's set, the most dangerous sets which are Nasty Plot and Swords Dance can completely destroy defensive and offensive teams respectively because of power, speed and coverage. Kingdra also has enough bulk to consistently set up and even use a stall breaker set which renders almost all of his defensive counters useless, putting unfair pressure on stall teams. That's why Mew is broken.
Super Mario Bro
All we ever look for
From what I've noticed in the many games I've played lately, Chandelure and Heracross are much more threatening than Mew as stand-alone Pokes. Chandelure 2HKOs almost everything in the tier with its STABs, and cripples the thing it can't kill with Trick. Heracross easily sweeps teams with one of its STABs after you kill the other team's Gligar or Cofagrigus; I've won way too many games by just spamming Scarf Megahorn.
Mew can be threatening against certain teams, but almost always needs a turn of set-up to do so, since it doesn't have the raw stats to hit things hard off the bat. That's easier said than done, especially in a fast-paced meta with powerful things like Darmanitan, Victini and Porygon-Z.
I've rarely seen Mew do anything broken, so it might just be a paper vs. practice thing. In any case, there are other things that we should look at before we ban Mew.
Mew can be threatening against certain teams, but almost always needs a turn of set-up to do so, since it doesn't have the raw stats to hit things hard off the bat. That's easier said than done, especially in a fast-paced meta with powerful things like Darmanitan, Victini and Porygon-Z.
I've rarely seen Mew do anything broken, so it might just be a paper vs. practice thing. In any case, there are other things that we should look at before we ban Mew.
Mew having such a bad typing is what really hurts it. It has a notable Fighting-resistance but other than that, everything relevant hits it neutral or super-effective. On top of that, you get no excellent STAB to abuse while you have to contend with Chandelure, Mismagius, Heracross, etc. A real problem is that Mew just seems outclassed way too often. It's a really good sweeper...but isn't Raikou? I'd much rather use a Raikou or something that outspeeds a large portion of the metagame. BP just doesn't have a great threat to pass to outside of Nidoking thanks to his unique enough resistances and immunities, and even then, if it goes through that is more on the opponent for not being prepared at all.
Swords Dance is unique but seems like a waste. Mienshao + Darmanitan + Krookadile gives me a solid core that takes out Ghosts (Chandelure) anyway. SD Mew doesn't have any way to stop Burn from Scald or Wisp, Toxic, and it has a tough time being an intimidating foe. No one is going to be using Scarfed Close Combats nilly willy when they see a Mew on the opposing team, so the chances to actually set up a SD that is significant is almost zilch.
I am thoroughly unimpressed with Mew and I don't think it really has any impact leaving or staying in the tier.
Swords Dance is unique but seems like a waste. Mienshao + Darmanitan + Krookadile gives me a solid core that takes out Ghosts (Chandelure) anyway. SD Mew doesn't have any way to stop Burn from Scald or Wisp, Toxic, and it has a tough time being an intimidating foe. No one is going to be using Scarfed Close Combats nilly willy when they see a Mew on the opposing team, so the chances to actually set up a SD that is significant is almost zilch.
I am thoroughly unimpressed with Mew and I don't think it really has any impact leaving or staying in the tier.
TPO3
Never practice; Always perform.
Ugh why do people keep saying that Psychic is such horrid typing? Offensively it really isn't that bad. Defensively it definitely isn't stellar either, but Mew isn't supposed to switch in repetitively throughout a match unless you're using the atrocious Stallbreaker set. Offensively there is not a ton that resists/is immune, and most, if not all of it can be covered by Mew's ENDLESS coverage options.
Mew's sheer power (even though it has quite a bit) isn't it what pushes it over the edge, Mew's versatility does. There is no single counter for Mew. Anything that beats the Nasty Plot set gets beaten to a bloody pulp by Swords Dance, and anything that beats Swords Dance gets thrashed around by Nasty Plot. The ONLY pokemon that exists that "always" checks Mew is Scarf Imposter Ditto, which is pretty terrible on most UU teams. Aside from this mon, there is literally nothing that can "always" check or counter Mew. Even looking at ONLY Nasty Plot, and you'll find it's hard to pin down. The "standard" set consists of Psychic/Aura Sphere/Fire Blast, but there are still several more options to play around with. Giga Drain and Thunderbolt for bulky waters. Dark Pulse for Slowbro, Slowking, and Meloetta. These mons are considered normally to be great counters, but one move can completely turn that around. Swords Dance hits from the complete opposite end of the spectrum, so the specially defensive Pkmn that are normally used to deal with Nasty Plot are now rendered useless. You can't even safely revenge kill Swords Dance Mew very often. +2 Sucker Punch downright OHKO's Victini, and can do upwards of 75% to Flygon, Honchkrow, Raikou, and Crobat. In addition to this, there are still 2 Pokemon that are considered to be fail proof checks to mew, in Scarf Heracross (barring lol misses) and Weavile. Both of these pokemon get pooped on by the appropriate super effective berries, thus leaving us with absolutely nothing left in this tier that can safely beat Mew all the time. Not to mention that Heracross is extremely predictable. It literally HAS to Megahorn, because if it doesn't, Mew is just going to come right back in to set up and kill something else.
We suspected Kingdra not too long ago for much of the same reasons. People didn't like its versatility, and how if you mispredicted it could turn games around. However, Slowking still switches into all Kingdra and lives long enough for you to determine how to beat it. Thanks to Regenerator, it doesn't even need to sacrifice itself in the process. Empoleon switches into everything except the extremely obscure Specs HP Electric, which I have yet to see to this day. Snorlax nukes special variants, and can be EV'd to always survive +1 Outrages. Flygon, Mienshao, Raikou, and Ditto still check all Kingdras as long as it isn't Raining, special or physical. In addition to this, Kingdra's STAB moves were either weak (base 85 for Waterfall) or had severe recoil issues (locked in for 2 to 3 turns, or a -2 Special Attack.), so ultimately we decided to keep it.
How does this apply to Mew? Well, Mew does not have any of the above issues that Kingdra does. We don't have something similar to Slowking and Empoleon, who can just switch in at will and let you figure out the set. We don't have anything that can safely revenge kill Mew. We don't have anything that is a fail proof counter. Mew's STABs and other attacks don't have massive recoil issues. Mew can be tailor made just to get one kill (like Tanga Berry for Heracross), and there isn't anything you can do about it. Honestly, you don't know they're tanga berry until your Megahorn fails to kill, at which point it's too late. There are several Pokemon that can counter Mew AFTER you know what set it is, but until you do, it's just a time bomb that's waiting for the appropriate moment to go off and grab a kill.
Mew's sheer power (even though it has quite a bit) isn't it what pushes it over the edge, Mew's versatility does. There is no single counter for Mew. Anything that beats the Nasty Plot set gets beaten to a bloody pulp by Swords Dance, and anything that beats Swords Dance gets thrashed around by Nasty Plot. The ONLY pokemon that exists that "always" checks Mew is Scarf Imposter Ditto, which is pretty terrible on most UU teams. Aside from this mon, there is literally nothing that can "always" check or counter Mew. Even looking at ONLY Nasty Plot, and you'll find it's hard to pin down. The "standard" set consists of Psychic/Aura Sphere/Fire Blast, but there are still several more options to play around with. Giga Drain and Thunderbolt for bulky waters. Dark Pulse for Slowbro, Slowking, and Meloetta. These mons are considered normally to be great counters, but one move can completely turn that around. Swords Dance hits from the complete opposite end of the spectrum, so the specially defensive Pkmn that are normally used to deal with Nasty Plot are now rendered useless. You can't even safely revenge kill Swords Dance Mew very often. +2 Sucker Punch downright OHKO's Victini, and can do upwards of 75% to Flygon, Honchkrow, Raikou, and Crobat. In addition to this, there are still 2 Pokemon that are considered to be fail proof checks to mew, in Scarf Heracross (barring lol misses) and Weavile. Both of these pokemon get pooped on by the appropriate super effective berries, thus leaving us with absolutely nothing left in this tier that can safely beat Mew all the time. Not to mention that Heracross is extremely predictable. It literally HAS to Megahorn, because if it doesn't, Mew is just going to come right back in to set up and kill something else.
We suspected Kingdra not too long ago for much of the same reasons. People didn't like its versatility, and how if you mispredicted it could turn games around. However, Slowking still switches into all Kingdra and lives long enough for you to determine how to beat it. Thanks to Regenerator, it doesn't even need to sacrifice itself in the process. Empoleon switches into everything except the extremely obscure Specs HP Electric, which I have yet to see to this day. Snorlax nukes special variants, and can be EV'd to always survive +1 Outrages. Flygon, Mienshao, Raikou, and Ditto still check all Kingdras as long as it isn't Raining, special or physical. In addition to this, Kingdra's STAB moves were either weak (base 85 for Waterfall) or had severe recoil issues (locked in for 2 to 3 turns, or a -2 Special Attack.), so ultimately we decided to keep it.
How does this apply to Mew? Well, Mew does not have any of the above issues that Kingdra does. We don't have something similar to Slowking and Empoleon, who can just switch in at will and let you figure out the set. We don't have anything that can safely revenge kill Mew. We don't have anything that is a fail proof counter. Mew's STABs and other attacks don't have massive recoil issues. Mew can be tailor made just to get one kill (like Tanga Berry for Heracross), and there isn't anything you can do about it. Honestly, you don't know they're tanga berry until your Megahorn fails to kill, at which point it's too late. There are several Pokemon that can counter Mew AFTER you know what set it is, but until you do, it's just a time bomb that's waiting for the appropriate moment to go off and grab a kill.
@TP03, about Kingdra v. Mew:
1)Mew has A STAB, not multiple
2)140 bp special STAB vs 90, 120 bp physical STAB vs 80. Recoil/negative effects or no psychic types would kill for those power of STAB moves
Mew may have a slightly higher attacking stats to work with but having 2 nice STABs and high initial power attacksto work with more than balances that equation.
1)Mew has A STAB, not multiple
2)140 bp special STAB vs 90, 120 bp physical STAB vs 80. Recoil/negative effects or no psychic types would kill for those power of STAB moves
Mew may have a slightly higher attacking stats to work with but having 2 nice STABs and high initial power attacksto work with more than balances that equation.
Now, before I start giving my opinion on Mew, which I should've done a long time ago, I wanna say that I'm in no condition to determine if it's op, simply because I've never seen it used quite as right as I'd like.
TPO3, while you're right that Mew is much more versatile than Kingdra, I think you went a little over the edge trying to get to your point. There aren't just two revenge killers for Mew, it sits at a base 100 Speed tier, which means it's outsped by many things. Off the top of my head, ScarfHera, Weavile, SpecsZoro, ScarfKrook, can all take a +2 Sucker Punch and beat it. Furthermore, since Zoro is often partnered with Hera, you can always think it's running Tanga Berry when you don't see LO recoil/Lefties recovery, and KO with Zoro instead. It could be Colbur Berry and then it'll bite you in the ass, but chances are it's running Tanga due to ScarfHera being the most popular set, second only to ScarfGene when it was roaming OU freely. That said, even if there were thousands of revenge killers, it wouldn't make it less op. However, I'd like to say two things: the common SD Mew set is completely (and I mean completely) shut down by a Pokemon which I've seen quite often, and it's Sableye. Furthermore, if the only way you can touch it is if it attacks you, you're gonna have a bad time. Slowking is also a good counter to the SD set, with a combination of Thunder Wave and Dragon Tail (if Mew isn't weakened enough to be KOed by a Scald), it can take a +2 SP and phaze it to rack up hazard damage.
The NP set is another story, since it 2HKOes even the most defensive Snorlax variant after SR with a +2 Psyshock/Aura Sphere. Aura Sphere does short work of Umbreon, whose Foul Plays won't do much damage to a Mew that invests nothing in Attack and has a solid Defense stat. In fact, the only reason it's better at NPing early/mid-game than Azelf, is because of its bulk. Azelf can't OHKO Offensive Snorlax at +2 without Psyshock, and will die to a Crunch. It also can't get past Umbreon, whose Foul Plays will do a number to it. That said, Azelf is much more powerful at +2, especially if running Psyshock over Psychic, but if it doesn't get the kill it will die, no way around it.
I've yet to find a solid way of beating NP Mew without resorting to revenge killing, the only thing I can do is make its life miserable prior setting up by not giving it a free switch in. Because, unlike Azelf, it will survive Specs Surf from Slowbro and live to try and sweep, but it won't like it when Slowbro stays in on its setup turn and gives the finishing blow.
Overall, I think Mew is an incredibly important threat in the metagame, with two offensive sets (I didn't even touch the others, because though it's unique in support moves I believe there are others that do it better) that have completely different answers to it prior to it getting a kill, and it's really hard to beat when you switch in your Sableye thinking it's SD and when it NP's, you're basically 1-0 down. Probably the best way of dealing with it if you're not sure of its set is by putting pressure on its shoulders, not letting it switch in for free. Late-game, it may sweep you, but anything may sweep you late-game if you're not careful, LO Shapedo and SubCM Raikou off the top of my head.
Is it slightly op? Most likely. Does its versatility push it over the edge? Can't tell. I just hope it gets a fair trial, and if it has to part to BL, it is because that was the right thing to do and not because people were scared of its versatility.
TPO3, while you're right that Mew is much more versatile than Kingdra, I think you went a little over the edge trying to get to your point. There aren't just two revenge killers for Mew, it sits at a base 100 Speed tier, which means it's outsped by many things. Off the top of my head, ScarfHera, Weavile, SpecsZoro, ScarfKrook, can all take a +2 Sucker Punch and beat it. Furthermore, since Zoro is often partnered with Hera, you can always think it's running Tanga Berry when you don't see LO recoil/Lefties recovery, and KO with Zoro instead. It could be Colbur Berry and then it'll bite you in the ass, but chances are it's running Tanga due to ScarfHera being the most popular set, second only to ScarfGene when it was roaming OU freely. That said, even if there were thousands of revenge killers, it wouldn't make it less op. However, I'd like to say two things: the common SD Mew set is completely (and I mean completely) shut down by a Pokemon which I've seen quite often, and it's Sableye. Furthermore, if the only way you can touch it is if it attacks you, you're gonna have a bad time. Slowking is also a good counter to the SD set, with a combination of Thunder Wave and Dragon Tail (if Mew isn't weakened enough to be KOed by a Scald), it can take a +2 SP and phaze it to rack up hazard damage.
The NP set is another story, since it 2HKOes even the most defensive Snorlax variant after SR with a +2 Psyshock/Aura Sphere. Aura Sphere does short work of Umbreon, whose Foul Plays won't do much damage to a Mew that invests nothing in Attack and has a solid Defense stat. In fact, the only reason it's better at NPing early/mid-game than Azelf, is because of its bulk. Azelf can't OHKO Offensive Snorlax at +2 without Psyshock, and will die to a Crunch. It also can't get past Umbreon, whose Foul Plays will do a number to it. That said, Azelf is much more powerful at +2, especially if running Psyshock over Psychic, but if it doesn't get the kill it will die, no way around it.
I've yet to find a solid way of beating NP Mew without resorting to revenge killing, the only thing I can do is make its life miserable prior setting up by not giving it a free switch in. Because, unlike Azelf, it will survive Specs Surf from Slowbro and live to try and sweep, but it won't like it when Slowbro stays in on its setup turn and gives the finishing blow.
Overall, I think Mew is an incredibly important threat in the metagame, with two offensive sets (I didn't even touch the others, because though it's unique in support moves I believe there are others that do it better) that have completely different answers to it prior to it getting a kill, and it's really hard to beat when you switch in your Sableye thinking it's SD and when it NP's, you're basically 1-0 down. Probably the best way of dealing with it if you're not sure of its set is by putting pressure on its shoulders, not letting it switch in for free. Late-game, it may sweep you, but anything may sweep you late-game if you're not careful, LO Shapedo and SubCM Raikou off the top of my head.
Is it slightly op? Most likely. Does its versatility push it over the edge? Can't tell. I just hope it gets a fair trial, and if it has to part to BL, it is because that was the right thing to do and not because people were scared of its versatility.
The thing is, I can live with Mew being on the tier and actually sweeping me once in a while, if things like QuivPass Venomoth or Hax Abuser Togekiss with AncientPower were banned to eternity and back, simply because those are strategies that I find uncompetitive. Why? Because 90% of the times you're gonna win because you're a better player, but 10% of the times you're gonna get swept with little trouble without the opponent having any skills whatsoever. And that's enough to make any strategy considered uncompetitive.
TPO3
Never practice; Always perform.
AT +2, Mew doesn't need to have a 140 BP move to wreck stuff. It just kills something, and moves onto the next target. Psychic STAB might not be Dragon STAB, but it definitely isn't terrible.
I definitely agree with this. Slowbro, Slowking, and Sableye do shut down the SD set, however that's not the point I was trying to make. The point I was trying to make was that the pokemon that shut down Swords Dance can do almost nothing against Nasty Plot. Sableye gets beaten by a +2 Fire Blast, Slowbro and Slowking go down to a +2 Thunderbolt or Giga Drain. There's even enough versatility withing just the nasty plot set where Pokemon who normally beat one set get taken out by another. Between Dark Pulse, Fire Blast, Aura Sphere, and Giga Drain, you have several options to hit just the pokemon you need to. Mew doesn't have a common pokemon that can switch into it repeatedly, like Kingdra has in Slowking, Snorlax, and other checks in stuff like Scarf Flygon. The stuff that checks one set gets wrecked by the other. Mew can potentially turn an entire match around, and not just because of a misplay or mispredict like it would be with Kingdra. Mew turns games arond just because it can do virtually anything, and there isn't a way to see it coming. Entering a match you don't know that it has Giga Drain instead of Fire Blast, or Tanga Berry instead of Life Orb. When played right, Mew is basically guranteed to get a kill, and sometimes it's enough to get an entire sweep.
@TPO3: Yes, but then so can Kingdra after set up.
Not sure if Kingdra can run a SpA boosting move for Draco Meteor, but at +1 Kingdras Outrage has same power as Mews Zen Headbutt, actuall a little harder, as well as having a boost to speed. Specs DM>+2 Psychic. Rain Danced Hydro Pump>+2 Psychic while doubling its speed. Sheer power after a boost isn't something Kingdra lacks.
Not sure if Kingdra can run a SpA boosting move for Draco Meteor, but at +1 Kingdras Outrage has same power as Mews Zen Headbutt, actuall a little harder, as well as having a boost to speed. Specs DM>+2 Psychic. Rain Danced Hydro Pump>+2 Psychic while doubling its speed. Sheer power after a boost isn't something Kingdra lacks.
All the votes are in, and the result is a surprisingly unanimous decision to keep Mew in the tier. Here are the voters' reasoning paragraphs:
Upstart apparently didn't send in his reasoning in time, but his vote doesn't change the outcome, so I'm posting this now. I'll pester him for his paragraphs so you guys can read them, though.
Anyway, Mew obviously stays UU; yay! Discussion in the megathread pls.
I guess it's funny to note that, before this round, I haven't played UU in probably nearly a year. However, in that time, Mew's role in the metagame did not change at all. It has always been the Pokemon, in UU at least, that was the jack of all trades but master of none. Having diversity like that is usually good enough to get an above average Pokemon banned, but Mew just doesn't even come close to toeing the broken line.
I've seen people try to compare Mew to DPP Salamence. I think most people know those claims are simply unwarranted. Set unpredictability is always a factor in considering suspects, but I think you have to evaluate how that unpredictability plays out. While DPP Salamence almost guaranteed a kill if you guessed wrong on its set, BW UU Mew is nowhere near as threatening if you guess incorrectly on the initial switch. There are a lot of factors that contribute to that. For instance, much like OU, a plain Psychic typing is absolutely terrible. If Mew is offensive, it is easily revenged by some of the most common scarfers in the tier (even those that don't hit super effectively. Defensive Mew, on the other hand, has the same exact typing problems. It cannot effectively shut down some of the most prevalent attackers in the tier and is susceptible to easy switchins from some of the hardest hitters in the tier (think Darmanitan and Chandelure).
I didn't center my argument as much as I should have so I'll do that right now. Offensive Mew is nowhere near as threatening as the other major sweepers in the tier while defensive Mew does not wall enough to be considered a defensive threat. Mew's unpredictability also does not play a role because it simply does not hit hard enough to discourage an initial bad switchin. Kingdra was a suspect just a while ago, and it has the ability to punish the wrong switchin while still not being broken. Mew comes nowhere near that. As banhappy as I generally am, I don't think Mew is even the premiere threat in the UU tier.
I've seen people try to compare Mew to DPP Salamence. I think most people know those claims are simply unwarranted. Set unpredictability is always a factor in considering suspects, but I think you have to evaluate how that unpredictability plays out. While DPP Salamence almost guaranteed a kill if you guessed wrong on its set, BW UU Mew is nowhere near as threatening if you guess incorrectly on the initial switch. There are a lot of factors that contribute to that. For instance, much like OU, a plain Psychic typing is absolutely terrible. If Mew is offensive, it is easily revenged by some of the most common scarfers in the tier (even those that don't hit super effectively. Defensive Mew, on the other hand, has the same exact typing problems. It cannot effectively shut down some of the most prevalent attackers in the tier and is susceptible to easy switchins from some of the hardest hitters in the tier (think Darmanitan and Chandelure).
I didn't center my argument as much as I should have so I'll do that right now. Offensive Mew is nowhere near as threatening as the other major sweepers in the tier while defensive Mew does not wall enough to be considered a defensive threat. Mew's unpredictability also does not play a role because it simply does not hit hard enough to discourage an initial bad switchin. Kingdra was a suspect just a while ago, and it has the ability to punish the wrong switchin while still not being broken. Mew comes nowhere near that. As banhappy as I generally am, I don't think Mew is even the premiere threat in the UU tier.
Let me start off by saying that Mew is definitely one of UU’s premier threats, but I do not think it is even remotely close to being broken. The whole reason a Mew ban is on the table is due to its ability to run several different sets effectively, all of which have different counters and checks. The most notable of these are Swords Dance and Nasty Plot. However, Mew’s versatility doesn’t play a large role in its effectiveness because it lacks the offensive prowess to take advantage of it. Unlike Kingdra, and by extension DPP Salamence, making the wrong initial switch-in to Mew often has little or no consequence. Mew’s limited sweeping potential is further compounded by its horrible typing, which leaves it only one useful resistance and dangerous weaknesses to Megahorn, U-Turn, Shadow Ball, and Sucker Punch. Furthermore, NP Mew is prone to being revenge killed by common Scarf users and faster Pokémon like Crobat and Raikou, while SD Mew is hard-countered by several walls, including Slowbro and Sableye. It is for these reasons that I have to say Mew is currently balanced in UU.
While Mew is extremely powerful, versatile, and threatening, it is ultimately balanced for one simple reason: Heracross. All of mews sets are severely threatened by the most common pokemon running the most common set in the whole tier. In addition to Heracross, the general offensive pace of the metagame is not a favorable environment for Mew, which excels at breaking stall and threatening balance. But the most pivotal argument in favor of a "do not ban" vote is simply its current usage - while usage stats are not reflective of balance, ultimately the general community has made it apparent that Mew is not as threatening as several other prominent UU pokemon. Given that, and the very borderline nature of Mew's prowess, I am forced to vote do not ban until further metagame developments arise.
Mew is a rather unique Pokemon, in that the sets it can run are quite radically different, and it is extraordinarily customizable. In theory, one would expect that this would make Mew nearly impossible to deal with; in practice, this is not the case for several reason. The most important reasons are Mew's typing and ironically, it's stat distribution.
Although theoretically Mew could run any number of sets, in practice only three or four sets are commonly seen. Mew's support sets are of middling usefulness at best, so the Nasty Plot and Swords Dance sets are most relevant. Both sets are limited by Mew's typing in that there are limits to the situations in which Mew can safely switch in. Since Mew needs Life Orb to secure a number of KOs and since bulkier versions occasionally rely on resist berries to lure specific threats, Mew is very prone to taking residual damage. Compounding the problem is the fact that Mew is not a very good switch into UU's Fighting types--the threat of Megahorn means it is too risky to come in on Heracross, while Mienshao will simply U-turn out of Mew. This is a problem because each sweeping Mew set is prone to being forced out--Mew is not very strong without a boost, yet Nasty Plot Mew is very susceptible to fast Pokemon and Scarf users, making it easy to revenge kill. Base 100 speed is not as fast as it used to be in UU, with the popularity of Raikou, Zapdos and Crobat; all of the popular Scarf users except Mienshao force Nasty Plot Mew out. Swords Dance Mew fears fast Pokemon and revenge killers less, but in exchange is hard countered by several Pokemon, such as Sableye and Slowbro. Ironically, the sets that would concern me the most, Baton Pass sets, are held back the most not by anything intrinsic to Mew, but because UU simply lacks great Baton Pass receivers that work well with Mew. So then, while Mew is undeniably versatile, it is not so immediately threatening that it can severely punish players for guessing the set wrong, and each set can be handled well enough to keep Mew balanced (except perhaps by full stall, but full stall has serious issues in the current metagame totally apart from Mew). As such, Mew should be allowed to remain in UU.
Although theoretically Mew could run any number of sets, in practice only three or four sets are commonly seen. Mew's support sets are of middling usefulness at best, so the Nasty Plot and Swords Dance sets are most relevant. Both sets are limited by Mew's typing in that there are limits to the situations in which Mew can safely switch in. Since Mew needs Life Orb to secure a number of KOs and since bulkier versions occasionally rely on resist berries to lure specific threats, Mew is very prone to taking residual damage. Compounding the problem is the fact that Mew is not a very good switch into UU's Fighting types--the threat of Megahorn means it is too risky to come in on Heracross, while Mienshao will simply U-turn out of Mew. This is a problem because each sweeping Mew set is prone to being forced out--Mew is not very strong without a boost, yet Nasty Plot Mew is very susceptible to fast Pokemon and Scarf users, making it easy to revenge kill. Base 100 speed is not as fast as it used to be in UU, with the popularity of Raikou, Zapdos and Crobat; all of the popular Scarf users except Mienshao force Nasty Plot Mew out. Swords Dance Mew fears fast Pokemon and revenge killers less, but in exchange is hard countered by several Pokemon, such as Sableye and Slowbro. Ironically, the sets that would concern me the most, Baton Pass sets, are held back the most not by anything intrinsic to Mew, but because UU simply lacks great Baton Pass receivers that work well with Mew. So then, while Mew is undeniably versatile, it is not so immediately threatening that it can severely punish players for guessing the set wrong, and each set can be handled well enough to keep Mew balanced (except perhaps by full stall, but full stall has serious issues in the current metagame totally apart from Mew). As such, Mew should be allowed to remain in UU.
Mew is simply a top tier Pokemon, but not BL-worthy. It lacks immediate power to threaten whatever Mew switch-ins the opponent bring out, allowing the opponent to recover from whatever unpredictable stunt Mew attempts to pull. We can ascribe multiple variables to this flaw, consisting of its lack of powerful STAB moves, unremarkable offense, and inability to boost its ordinary Speed. In this respect I find Kingdra far more threatening, since special variants can hit hard right off the bat with STAB Hydro Pump and Draco Meteor while doubling its Speed and powering their Hydro Pump further with Rain Dance. Similarly, physical Kingdra wield a powerful Outrage and can boost their Speed and offense simultaneously with Dragon Dance. Kingdra may be more predictable, but far more deadly. I find myself preparing for straight-forward yet lethal threats such as Kingdra, Heracross, and Chandelure rather than Mew.
Mew's most dangerous threat may very well be its BP set. However Mew sacrifices even more power by replacing a coverage move for Baton Pass. It will most likely also opt for Leftovers or protective berries over Life Orb and invest more in HP rather than offensive EVs to better ensure a successful pass. A perfect trade-off to render Mew non-OP.
In short, Mew is not offensively threatening to be removed from UU. Mew may be armed by unpredictability, but this weapon fails to take UU by storm.
Mew's most dangerous threat may very well be its BP set. However Mew sacrifices even more power by replacing a coverage move for Baton Pass. It will most likely also opt for Leftovers or protective berries over Life Orb and invest more in HP rather than offensive EVs to better ensure a successful pass. A perfect trade-off to render Mew non-OP.
In short, Mew is not offensively threatening to be removed from UU. Mew may be armed by unpredictability, but this weapon fails to take UU by storm.
Mew is without a doubt the most versatile pokemon in the entire UU tier, and it's the reason that makes it so dangerous. Mew can run a variety of sets, ranging from Baton Pass and Support to most offensive sets such as Nasty Plot and Swords Dance. The unpredictability Mew has is probably its biggest asset, as each set has different counters. However, despite Mew's bulk and versatility, it has some drawbacks that prevent it from sweeping teams ''at a moment notice''. First, it has troubles switching in (I mean, switching in and still having enough HP left to be able to set up) as it doesn't have useful resistances to compliment its bulk, while it's weak to powerful and common moves such as Megahorn, U-turn, Sucker Punch or Shadow Ball. Secondly, Mew is pretty weak before setting up Swords Dance or Nasty Plot, which means that a lot of pokemon can take 1-2 hits (even if it's at +2) and retaliate hard back. In addition, Mew's not that fast, and there are a lot of pokemon that outspeed it and can force it out, such as Raikou, Choice Scarf users with a SE move (Heracross, Chandelure), Weavile, Zoroark, etc. As for the pokemon that are slower than Mew, they're usually bulky enough to take even a boosted hit (Snorlax, Bronzong, Blastoise, Rhyperior) or have other ways of beating Mew (priority users like Bisharp and Honchkrow). As for the Defensive / Support sets, while they're good, they aren't as immediately threatening as the offensive sets, and once you know what set it's running it's very easy to deal with. At the end of the day, I guess that what I'm trying to say is that Mew is a very powerful threat, but it just falls short of being broken as once you know what set is running, it is relatively easy to deal with.
Mew is often credited as being able to feasibly run virtually any type of set, and while this is true there are four main sets that stand out above the rest which I shall address.
Mew's Psychic typing does it no favours either. Outside of resisting Psychic and Fighting, Mew's Psychic typing is actually a hindrance being weak to Bug-, Dark-, and Ghost-type moves which are commonly seen (especially as coverage moves on UU's Fighting-types), while granting no significantly useful resistances. As a result, if it values its longevity Mew can only really afford to safely set up on Pokemon with little offensive presence despite its impressive bulk.
Figuring out Mew's set is the biggest danger when facing it and is Mew's greatest strength. While mistaking sets can sometimes prove costly, Mew's power is not such that entire games can be lost wholly by guessing the wrong set. Moreover, I would actually argue that Mew's ability to run an array of sets effectively is a good thing as it encourages intelligent play, though admittedly more so from the defending player.
Mew is no doubt a top-tier Pokemon, and it is one that teeters on the edge of being broken, however Mew's shortcomings are just enough to prevent it from tipping over the edge, and as such Mew should not be banned.
- Baton Pass Mew is a good baton passer, but that is about it. While Mew boasts higher bulk and speed over Venomoth or Smeargle, the latter two posses the ability to incapacitate opposing Pokemon with their respective sleep move (Mew does get Hypnosis, but it is nowhere near as reliable as Sleep Powder or Spore) making them potentially more dangerous. Dealing with BP Mew is no different than how you would deal with any other baton pass Pokemon.
- Stall breaker Mew is essentially a bulkier Sableye with worse typing and no priority on its taunt, recovery, or status. While overly defensive team may struggle to break it, any well-built UU team should have a means of getting past it.
- Sucker Punch is what makes Swords Dance Mew most dangerous, however it is very check-able/counter-able (Slowbro, Sableye, Scarf Heracross, faster Dark-types, even some bulky Water-types depending on its item - and yes I do acknowledge the potential for resist berries, but read on for the problems with such items), and its power and effectiveness is heavily reliant on what item it carries. Sets that do not use Life Orb lack in raw power even after 2 SDs, whereas sets without a Lum Berry are highly susceptible to status, while no Leftovers means Mew is easier to wear down.
- Nasty Plot Mew is perhaps the most dangerous of all sets, as it is the only one that has no actual solid counters, however the same deal with item choice outlined in SD Mew also holds true for NP Mew. NP Mew is also far easier to check with faster Pokemon, as there is no threat of Sucker Punch (But there is Vacuum Wave!!!).
Mew's Psychic typing does it no favours either. Outside of resisting Psychic and Fighting, Mew's Psychic typing is actually a hindrance being weak to Bug-, Dark-, and Ghost-type moves which are commonly seen (especially as coverage moves on UU's Fighting-types), while granting no significantly useful resistances. As a result, if it values its longevity Mew can only really afford to safely set up on Pokemon with little offensive presence despite its impressive bulk.
Figuring out Mew's set is the biggest danger when facing it and is Mew's greatest strength. While mistaking sets can sometimes prove costly, Mew's power is not such that entire games can be lost wholly by guessing the wrong set. Moreover, I would actually argue that Mew's ability to run an array of sets effectively is a good thing as it encourages intelligent play, though admittedly more so from the defending player.
Mew is no doubt a top-tier Pokemon, and it is one that teeters on the edge of being broken, however Mew's shortcomings are just enough to prevent it from tipping over the edge, and as such Mew should not be banned.
Mew is undeniably one of the strongest threats in UU; it has a decent amount of options (within its 4 common sets), and its perfect blend of offensive and defense makes it a fantastic offensive Pokemon while also being somewhat difficult to kill, which is a trait that is almost unheard of in UU. That said, I firmly believe that Mew is not broken in UU, and that it's merely a very good Pokemon. People are quick to jump on Mew's alleged "near infinite" versatility, but the only sets worth examining on Mew are Nasty Plot, Swords Dance, Stallbreaker and Baton Pass.
In my opinion, I don't feel like SD Mew is that big of a deal, in fact i'd even call it overrated (it loses to so many Pokemon, like Slowbro, Sableye, etc). SD Mew is only good by virtue of the fact that Nasty Plot Mew's existence. Pokemon that you could switch in to check NP (by switching into NP or a resisted coverage move) are "somewhat" vulnerable to Sucker Punch (like Victini) and pverall +2 non stabbed Sucker Punch kind of hurts, but that's really all it has over NP. Stallbreaker Mew has essentially been forgotten in UU; it's still decent, but it can't handle the heavy Fire-power from offensive Juggernauts like Darmanitan or Victini, or Special Attackers like Raikou. Baton Pass is actually a terrific team player because of its fantastic bulk and Taunt, but its no better than say Gorebyss, who can set up a sweeper faster than Mew can or Smeargle who has access to both Shell Smash and Spore. Baton Pass is a pretty good option on Nasty Plot sets, though the loss of coverage makes Mew vulnerable to Pokemon it should have no trouble beating.
Dealing with the NP Mew puts any Pokemon that switches into it in severe danger of dying or getting crippled because of its fierce combination of power and combination. This would be fine if it wasn't so bulky; it usually requires 2 strong neutral hits to take it down. Contrary to popular belief, Psychic typing is a blessing in UU; you resist Fighting-type moves, and its weaknesses aren't very common. Dark / Ghost are rare / vulnerable to Mew and Bug types non Heracross bug types anyway) are close to being non-existent. Mew can also run a Rindo Berry, allows you to bypass Heracross and soften U-turn damage.
So you can only really deal with it by relying on faster checks; it lacks any counters to speak of at +2 SpA, which isn't all that different from Azelf, but Mew's vastly superior bulk lets it have an easier time setting up. Despite all of that, I don't think Mew is broken. I see it as top tier UU Pokemon (ala DPP UU Venusaur ) that requires smart play and care to beat it. It's Speed tier is impressive, but its naturally outsped by a decent amount of Pokemon/Scarfers, which prevents it from ever fully sweeping a team. It's also prone to being pummelled by Choice Scarf users (Darmanitan, Heracross,etc) who either KO it, or several cripple it to the point where its dead anyway. UU is home to a couple of underutilized Pokemon that can easily revenge kill it (Zoroark, Mismagius and Krookodile).
In my opinion, I don't feel like SD Mew is that big of a deal, in fact i'd even call it overrated (it loses to so many Pokemon, like Slowbro, Sableye, etc). SD Mew is only good by virtue of the fact that Nasty Plot Mew's existence. Pokemon that you could switch in to check NP (by switching into NP or a resisted coverage move) are "somewhat" vulnerable to Sucker Punch (like Victini) and pverall +2 non stabbed Sucker Punch kind of hurts, but that's really all it has over NP. Stallbreaker Mew has essentially been forgotten in UU; it's still decent, but it can't handle the heavy Fire-power from offensive Juggernauts like Darmanitan or Victini, or Special Attackers like Raikou. Baton Pass is actually a terrific team player because of its fantastic bulk and Taunt, but its no better than say Gorebyss, who can set up a sweeper faster than Mew can or Smeargle who has access to both Shell Smash and Spore. Baton Pass is a pretty good option on Nasty Plot sets, though the loss of coverage makes Mew vulnerable to Pokemon it should have no trouble beating.
Dealing with the NP Mew puts any Pokemon that switches into it in severe danger of dying or getting crippled because of its fierce combination of power and combination. This would be fine if it wasn't so bulky; it usually requires 2 strong neutral hits to take it down. Contrary to popular belief, Psychic typing is a blessing in UU; you resist Fighting-type moves, and its weaknesses aren't very common. Dark / Ghost are rare / vulnerable to Mew and Bug types non Heracross bug types anyway) are close to being non-existent. Mew can also run a Rindo Berry, allows you to bypass Heracross and soften U-turn damage.
So you can only really deal with it by relying on faster checks; it lacks any counters to speak of at +2 SpA, which isn't all that different from Azelf, but Mew's vastly superior bulk lets it have an easier time setting up. Despite all of that, I don't think Mew is broken. I see it as top tier UU Pokemon (ala DPP UU Venusaur ) that requires smart play and care to beat it. It's Speed tier is impressive, but its naturally outsped by a decent amount of Pokemon/Scarfers, which prevents it from ever fully sweeping a team. It's also prone to being pummelled by Choice Scarf users (Darmanitan, Heracross,etc) who either KO it, or several cripple it to the point where its dead anyway. UU is home to a couple of underutilized Pokemon that can easily revenge kill it (Zoroark, Mismagius and Krookodile).
Mew is an amazing pokemon with the ability to learn every tm and move tutor available bar the elemental hyper beams. Thus with the largest arsenal of moves Mew is no doubt a top threat possessing the ability to be tailored to fit the needs of any team. However Mew's large move pool cannot make up for her inherent hinderances. Mew's psychic typing is rather lackluster despite the metagame being fighting centric. Psychic adds little coverage to Mew's extensive alternatives while Mew requires the STAB in order to secure many KOs. Defensively psychic is also a bland typing. Despite Mew's good bulk the prevalence of Megahorns, U-turns and dark moves greatly diminishes Mew's staying power. Offensive bulk is diminished by her need for LO in order to secure crucial KOs.
Mew's multitude of sets typically boils down to support, SD, and nasty plot. As these three sets appear to prove the most consistent. Unfortunately each set individually has flaws and can safely be countered. Although the unpredictability on the first turn is dangerous, after one move Mew's set can usually be deduced and the proper measures can be made to counter the set. Additionally, poor mew has fallen susceptible to Gen 5 speed creep. Base 100 simply isn't as fast as it use to be. Thus Mew's offensive sets are easier revenged Thus, Mew's remains a top tier threat with great versatility but unfortunately holds herself back through her typing and her only good stats in every stat.
Mew's multitude of sets typically boils down to support, SD, and nasty plot. As these three sets appear to prove the most consistent. Unfortunately each set individually has flaws and can safely be countered. Although the unpredictability on the first turn is dangerous, after one move Mew's set can usually be deduced and the proper measures can be made to counter the set. Additionally, poor mew has fallen susceptible to Gen 5 speed creep. Base 100 simply isn't as fast as it use to be. Thus Mew's offensive sets are easier revenged Thus, Mew's remains a top tier threat with great versatility but unfortunately holds herself back through her typing and her only good stats in every stat.
Upstart apparently didn't send in his reasoning in time, but his vote doesn't change the outcome, so I'm posting this now. I'll pester him for his paragraphs so you guys can read them, though.
Anyway, Mew obviously stays UU; yay! Discussion in the megathread pls.
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