Rain Offense - A Discussion

[Tobes]

Rain offense has been one of the most prevalent playstyles in Ubers for a long time. This is of course no surprise, since Kyogre is the king of Ubers, but what exactly makes rain offense so viable? Today we're going to take a closer look at rain offense, how it works, what its weaknesses are, and how to beat them.

First, a quick run-down on some (keyword: some) rain offense Pokemon.

If you're using rain offense, you're using Kypogre, period. Often one of the big decisions when building a rain team is what kind of Kyogre set to run. Generally rain offense will choose between Kyogre's two Choice sets, but there are certainly other options.

• Choice Scarf: Choice Scarf Kyogre is used primarily for revenge-killing Mewtwo, Darkrai, and a host of un-Scarfed Pokemon. It can also sweep lategame on its own thanks to its powerful Surf, or in the more unlikely case that its HP and PP have been conserved, the devastating Water Spout. Generally rain offense teams with Choice Scarf Kyogre are less likely to run Swift Swimmers.
• Choice Specs: While Choice Scarf Kyogre plays more of a reactive role, Choice Specs Kyogre is proactive in that it just smashes things in. Water Spout does absolutely devastating amounts of damage now, 2HKOing Ferrothorn and Chansey. Palkia must be wary of Thunder, while Giratina and Lati@s do not want to switch in on Ice Beam. Crippling safe switch-ins to Water-type attacks makes cleaning up with a Swift Swimmer, etc. much easier. Crippling Ferrothorn also makes it more difficult for the opponent to handle Dragon-type attacks.
• Other: Thunder Wave / Restalk / Calm Mind, etc. Thunder Wave has become much more relevant with the reintroduction of Soul Dew, as Latias is one of the best answers to Kyogre available. Crippling her makes things much easier for an un-Scarfed Palkia, Dialga, Rayquaza, etc. Calm Mind is a less common option but very threatening, providing much of the same power of Specs Kyogre, with the freedom to switch moves. Restalk is a bit out of place on rain offense, but keeping Kyogre alive is essential to a Swift Swimmer's utility, so a team dependant on those might find the longevity of the set to their liking.

Palkia is an iconic Choice Scarf user. Its base 100 Speed and quadruple resistance to Water-type attacks make it very easy to slot into a team. The introduction of Genesect has placed its ability to revenge kill Dragon Dance Rayquaza in lower demand. However, Palkia's single higher base Speed point makes it able to revenge kill Choice Scarf Genesect itself. Palkia's also quite the powerhouse, making excellent use of its signature Lustrous Orb or a pair of Choice Specs.

• Choice Scarf: Palkia's most identifiable set. Its ability to revenge kill Rayquaza and Genesect is quite beneficial, and its resistances make it easy to slot into teams other than rain offense. With rain support Palkia can function as a cleaner with double-STAB Surf. While BW Scarf sets have historically been special attackers, the return of Soul Dew has caused some to start running Outrage again.
• Lustrous Orb: Due to the widespread use of the Scarf set, Palkia can bluff very well with its signature item. Palkia can net surprise KOes on Pokemon thinking they are safe against a Palkia locked into a resisted move. The Orb's boost to Water-type attacks amplifies Palkia's rain-boosted power, making tanking Surfs from it even more daunting, especially when a good portion of the Dragon-types in the metagame are slower than it. Lustrous Orb Palkia is quite effective at combating other weathers, sun in particular. Removing Ferrothorn from the game can also be a great boon.
• Choice Specs: Similar to Specs Kyogre, this set aims to bludgeon opponents with absurdly powerful Draco Meteors and rain-boosted Hydro Pumps. While its power is nothing to scoff at, the allure of this set has diminished ever since Kyurem-W hit town, and overall Lustrous Orb Palkia is probably more effective.

Ferrothorn has deeply ingrained itself in the BW Ubers metagame. Its advantageous typing, access to Spikes, and very good bulk all make it an appealing team player. Rain teams value its services moreso than most others. Ferrothorn provides entry hazards to wear down the opponent, and it itself greatly appreciates having its Fire-type weakness decreased. Its Grass-STAB canbe used to smash Kyogre or Swift Swimmers, or it can use Gyro Ball to nail Kyurem-W and others. Thunder Wave is a very helpful option, slowing faster threats such as Lati@s, Rayquaza (very helpful when using Swift Swimmers), or Palkia. Rain is a slight double-edged sword though, since it makes Water-type attacks a little bit harder to switch into.

Kingdra functions similarly to Palkia. It loses out on a fair amount of power, but the doubled Speed can make it difficult for offensive teams to handle, although it dislikes the prevalence of Ferrothorn. Kingdra can go mixed, use Dragon Dance, or use Choice Specs. it can be quite deadly once resistances are worn down, and can act as a potent revenge-killer.

Kabutops's primary advantage over most other Swift Swimmers is its Rock-typing. It grants it a resistance to ExtremeSpeed, allowing Kabutops to revenge kill weakened EXtreme Killer Arceus. Rock-typing also grants Kabutops a useful secondary STAB in Stone Edge. Kabutops is primarily a revenge-killer, but it also has access to to the coveted Rapid Spin. Choice Band is the safest revenge-killer due to the increased power and lack of recoil, but a Life Orb makes Kabutops far more threatening late-game and gives it more freedom to use Rapid Spin.

---

This list is by no means all-inclusive (intentionally), so if there's a Pokemon not listed here that you want to talk about then by all means go ahead.

---

Some more things to talk about:

Three kinds of rain offense execution:
Water-Oriented: Focuses on wearing down Water-type resistances and then finishes off the opponent with Water-type Scarf users or Swift Swimmers.
Water/Dragon-Oriented: Takes advantage of the prevalence of Ferrothorn, and wears down both Water-type resists and Steel-types (both in the case of Ferrothorn), and eventually takes advantage to punch holes in the opponent's team. This kind of team can include Dragon-types that don't directly benefit much from rain, such as Kyurem-W or Rayquaza.
General: This denotes teams that aren't overly focused on abusing rain but feature Kyogre and perhaps some Pokemon equipped with Thunder, etc. Should these types of teams be labeled as rain offense? Discuss.

---

Threats to rain offense, such as: Groudon, Ferrothorn, Palkia, Dialga, Arceus formes, etc. What kind of Pokemon or playstyles do you feel rain teams struggle against? How can rain teams get around these threats?

 

[bygbyrd]

I think one of the highest priorities of an offensive rain team should be to eliminate Ferrothorn. Ferro walls many common rain team members including non-specs Kyogre, choiced Palkia, Giritina and Kingdra. It is particularly difficult to bring down the spike-y shrub due to his access to leech seed + protect. When I am building a rain team, I like to have a lure for Ferrothorn. Obviously the lure should have utility outside of this role and have synergy with the rest of your team.

Palkia can perform this role himself by bluffing a choice item and tagging Ferro with Fire Blast, but if you don't hit him on the switch in you are at the mercy off getting para'd or seeded, as Fire blast isn't going to OHKO Ferro in the rain. This is also not a sure-fire way to kill Ferro becasue Scarf Palkia is becoming less and less popular and people are wary of non-scarfed Palkias.

Rayquaza deserves a mention here as he can git rid of the rain and roast Ferro with Fire Blast or V-Create. While its not exactly a lure, a mixed set has a whole lot of utility as it can help dismantle many defensive cores and also sweep with Dragon Dragon dance or even Tailwind. Rayquaza's Air Lock is also a great defence against enemy swift swimmers and a safety net if you lose a weather war.

Zekrom is an amazing and often overlooked rain teammate. Both the mixed set and the Sub-Claws set effectively lure in Ferrothorn and put the opponent in a bad situation. The Mixed set is my favorite because it lures in both Ferrothorn and Groudon. Killing a Groudon early game is HUGE because most sun team will succumb to a onslaught of rain-boosted water attacks.

Rayquaza and Zekrom are a perfect example of the principle that a Pokemon does not have to directly benefit from rain to do well in it.

 

[Hack]

General: This denotes teams that aren't overly focused on abusing rain but feature Kyogre and perhaps some Pokemon equipped with Thunder, etc. Should these types of teams be labeled as rain offense? Discuss.

I find this a very nice topic actually. The example of using Thunder over Thunderbolt means that you are deliberately using the rain to your advantage, does it not?

On the other hand scarf Palkia almost always carries Thunder, even on sun team. I think the answer to weather teams just carrying Kyogre and some user of Thunder is not really a rain offense team, its just utilizing Kyogre power alone while using a balanced team that functions in rain nontheless.

But more technically, using a pokemon with drizzle mean you are running a rain team, by the strictest sense of definition. It gets quite subjective at that point IMO

 

[qedragonite]

What do you think the best Arceus form for Rain offense is?
I like Support Arceus Fighting, since it crushes Ferrothorn and Dialga, can switch into random dragon attacks, beats opposing weather summoners, and lures and toxics Latias. It hates Ho-oh and Mewtwo, but Scarfogre solves that problem.

 

[Mr. Uncompetitive]

What do you think the best Arceus form for Rain offense is?
I like Support Arceus Fighting, since it crushes Ferrothorn and Dialga, can switch into random dragon attacks, beats opposing weather summoners, and lures and toxics Latias. It hates Ho-oh and Mewtwo, but Scarfogre solves that problem.

In my rain team, I personally use Arceus-Steel. It can easily cripple Groudon and Ekiller, among other things, with a WoW, work as a decent check to Kyurem-W and Lati@s, and deal some pretty nice damage with judgment. Yeah, it does get screwed by Ho-oh and Reshiram and if I predict wrong, and Ferrothorn is also annoying, but it still is a very handy pivot to have.

 

[hichez]

Palkia is a must have on almost every uberz team if you ask me. Palkia is so versatile and it isn't really bothered by any weather. I commonly run scarf Plakia with Spacial Rend, thunder/outrage, fireblast/outrage, and hydro pump. It can handle most threats within 2HKO.

I find it odd that you mention kindra it makes sense in theory, but I have never tried or or seen anyone else try it.

 

[Porii Sames]

I'll vouch for Kingdra; I've tested it around a bit, and while it IS good, it requires a good amount of support to pull off. It's like Reshiram in the Sun almost; except it's faster and it does better against the thing that changes its weather, Groudon (pretty sure Kingdra 2HKOs Groudon with any move it has bar Dragon Pulse). It's quite good, but it DOES need a pretty huge amount of support and a fair share of prediction. This is assuming Specs set btw (Dpulse, Dmeteor, Surf, Hpump.)

 

[ssbbm]

^ kingdra is amazing, but you should almost always run lo instead of choice specs since the extra power doesn't do nearly as much as being able to switch.

 

[polop]

What do you think the best Arceus form for Rain offense is?

I wanna say Grass Arceus. Grass Arceus's unique array of resistances allow it to be one of the few Specs Ogre switch-in's in the game, and be the only thing that can always switch in safely to Palkia in Rain (unless Spacial Rend crit but then whatever). Rain removes its weakness to Fire-type moves meaning it can actually switch into basically anything except STAB Ice Beams (but your running Kyogre), and STAB Poison type moves (this doesn't even exist unless your Poison Arceus btw). It compresses the defensive needs of an offensive team a lot (with its only issue being Spikes bait but you can try to work around that with Fire Blast or clever switching + Will-o-wisp).

Also if your gonna give Kabutops a mention then you might as well mention Omastar. He can revenge Extremekiller in the rain too (except with Hydro Pump which like deals 90%+ to Extremekiller)! It gets Shell Smash to capitalize off of any switches it can force and after that it basically starts hurling ridiculously powerful attacks that can quite literally allow it to OHKO the entire metagame should it receive sufficient hazard support (and assuming Hydro Pump hits X_X). Its resistance to ExtremeSpeed and good defense ensures that its hard to take it down even after it has set up (you outspeed everything in rain thanks to your boost to speed).

If your not running Palkia, the Lati twins are a pretty good substitute (well as long as Palkia wasn't running a Choice Scarf set). They get STAB Dragon Pulse and Surf. Latias can switch into Kyogre's Water Spout and both can support the team with Tailwind. They also provide a handy resistance to Ground-type, Grass, and Electric-type moves that Palkia can't bring to the table, all in exchange for psuedo-STAB and the ability to go Choice Scarf / use physical moves. They function well with Specs Ogre seeing as the monster lures and eliminates Ferrothorn and Blissey who might annoy Latias. That and Tailwind + Specs Ogre -> GG (you can't make this any simpler really lol).

Dialga's one of the best users of Stealth Rock for any offensive rain team, it has the movepool and resistances to do it (no seriously it avoids getting OHKOed by basically every move (except CB / LO Groudon)), and it can even lure out Groudon and friends and promptly destroy them with Life Orbed Draco Meteor. The support Dialga easily sets up Rocks and can shuffle for some time, in the rain it can decently check Ho-oh should it have Roar.

 

[bygbyrd]

Palkia and Latias both fill similar roles and thus when teambuilding you should pick just one. Palkia has more offensive presence while Latias has Levitate and an immunity to spikes. Latias + Specs Ogre is a nice combo, but Kyogre isn't going to hover above those spikes Ferro can spam against Latias.

This brings me to my next advise on rain offence: hazard control. As I mentioned earlier, rain teams can have trouble with Ferrothorn and this means spikes on your side of the field. Of all the Pokemon we have discussed in this thread, only the Lati twins and Rayquaza don't mind spikes, and Rayquaza obviously is weak to rocks. So you need to have a way to spin those rocks away and keep your Specs Ogre at full HP or for your Palkia to have a chance against enemy Kyorgre. Lets have a look at Uber spinners (format will be HP / Def / SpDef):

Hide

Forretress
75 / 140 / 60

• Spikes
• Stealth Rocks
• Rapid Spin
• Toxic Spikes
• Volt Switch

Forry is quite the team supporter, boasting all hazards, rapid spin, and volt switch for momentum against against spin-blockers. Oh, and he's a Mewtwo check in rain !

The problem with Forry lies in his competition with Ferrothorn for a team slot. Forry isn't a wall like Ferrothorn, he is a team supporter. If you try to use him like a wall he will just die prematurely and you will have no team support. Ironically, the best time to send Forretress out is against Ferrothorn, because Ferro literally can't do anything to Forry.

Hide

Tentacruel
80 / 65 / 120

• Rapid Spin
• Toxic Spikes
• Rain dish
• Absorbs Toxic Spikes

Tentacruel is also more than just a spinner. He brings Toxic Spikes to the table and takes them away just by switching in. There are downsides to using him on an offensive rain team, however. He adds another electric weakness as you already have Kyogre; He can get set up on by many physical threats if you dont get a scald burn and pretty much any CM Arceus that comes in before toxic spikes (or on 1 layer); and he just isn't that bulky. Just as Forretress you can't use him like a dedicated wall, which can be a problem on an offensive team.

Hide

Excadrill

• Rapid Spin
• Stealth Rock
• Electric Immunity
• Poison Immunity
• Offensive Presence
• Mold Breaker

Ok, I'm just gonna say it. Excadrill is the best spinner for an offensive rain team (imo). That list above pretty much says it all. With mold breaker, you can hit Giritina-O with a STAB Earthquake, wearing it down easily as it has no recovery outside of rest (which is super rare). He can even beat dragon tail Giritina-A with sub + swords dance. He is also a Zekrom check which is amazing because Zekrom can run through a lot of rain team members. Try Excadrill out. It is much more than a sand sweeper !

Hope this was helpful !

 

[Hack]

Excadrill is amazing on rain teams, even more so with Mold Breaker. Tentacruel is maybe a little bit too niche for my liking. Running rain offense means I'm already down a team spot in offensive pressure by using Tentacruel. Also t-spikes won't really help an offensive team. And excadrill functions way better also, luring many in rain checks (Chansey, Gira, Gira-o Groudon) , spinning easier and if you want run SR on it, then no Magic Bouncer will prevent rocks.

IMO Grass Arceus is usually the best supportive Arceus to run on rain teams. However, running e-killer can't go wrong because you will force out its checks pretty easily with a rain team.

For example, a sun teams check to e-killer might be Groudon. You can wear it down by hazards and forcing it to come in on Arceus' extremespeed. You will then win the weather war easier. Or, it goes the other way around, with groudon forced to come in to set up sun/check Excadrill. Also wears down opposing weather and Arceus check. Tentacruel has its uses on semi-stall or stall orinented rain teams, though.

Giratina is also worn down by sub+sd exca and maybe Kabutops or Omaster as well, meaning Arceus will sweep later. So I really think you can't go wrong with using Arceus normal on your rain team. Grass and fighting Arceus are great as well, but just pack another Kyogre check instead of grassceus, or another way to eliminate Ferrothorn if you want to use e-killer.

 

[Tobes]

Palkia and Latias both fill similar roles and thus when teambuilding you should pick just one. Palkia has more offensive presence while Latias has Levitate and an immunity to spikes. Latias + Specs Ogre is a nice combo, but Kyogre isn't going to hover above those spikes Ferro can spam against Latias.

This brings me to my next advise on rain offence: hazard control. As I mentioned earlier, rain teams can have trouble with Ferrothorn and this means spikes on your side of the field. Of all the Pokemon we have discussed in this thread, only the Lati twins and Rayquaza don't mind spikes, and Rayquaza obviously is weak to rocks. So you need to have a way to spin those rocks away and keep your Specs Ogre at full HP or for your Palkia to have a chance against enemy Kyorgre. Lets have a look at Uber spinners (format will be HP / Def / SpDef):

Hide

Forretress
75 / 140 / 60

• Spikes
• Stealth Rocks
• Rapid Spin
• Toxic Spikes
• Volt Switch

Forry is quite the team supporter, boasting all hazards, rapid spin, and volt switch for momentum against against spin-blockers. Oh, and he's a Mewtwo check in rain !

The problem with Forry lies in his competition with Ferrothorn for a team slot. Forry isn't a wall like Ferrothorn, he is a team supporter. If you try to use him like a wall he will just die prematurely and you will have no team support. Ironically, the best time to send Forretress out is against Ferrothorn, because Ferro literally can't do anything to Forry.

Hide

Tentacruel
80 / 65 / 120

• Rapid Spin
• Toxic Spikes
• Rain dish
• Absorbs Toxic Spikes

Tentacruel is also more than just a spinner. He brings Toxic Spikes to the table and takes them away just by switching in. There are downsides to using him on an offensive rain team, however. He adds another electric weakness as you already have Kyogre; He can get set up on by many physical threats if you dont get a scald burn and pretty much any CM Arceus that comes in before toxic spikes (or on 1 layer); and he just isn't that bulky. Just as Forretress you can't use him like a dedicated wall, which can be a problem on an offensive team.

Hide

Excadrill

• Rapid Spin
• Stealth Rock
• Electric Immunity
• Poison Immunity
• Offensive Presence
• Mold Breaker

Ok, I'm just gonna say it. Excadrill is the best spinner for an offensive rain team (imo). That list above pretty much says it all. With mold breaker, you can hit Giritina-O with a STAB Earthquake, wearing it down easily as it has no recovery outside of rest (which is super rare). He can even beat dragon tail Giritina-A with sub + swords dance. He is also a Zekrom check which is amazing because Zekrom can run through a lot of rain team members. Try Excadrill out. It is much more than a sand sweeper !

Hope this was helpful !

This is an important facet of rain, thanks for bringing it up!. As far as rain spinners go I generally prefer Kabutops. It's not amazing at spinning, but it helps keep Extreme Killer Arceus in line, who I feel is one of the biggest threats to rain offense, as generally rain's favorite sweepers (especially most Swift Swimmers) can't stand up to it. However, it's certainly not the only viable spinner, and spinners that can multitask, such as the three you listed, are all valuable.

Speaking of handling offensive mons, your more defensive spinners lead me to a tangenital point: making a rain offensive team a little more balanced in order to handle offensive threats. I already touched on this with Ferrothorn, since it primarily serves as a Spiking defensive pivot. Defensive pivots on offensive teams should generally be handling some dangerous threat, while also being capable of furthering your offenses. Let's take a look at standard Skarmory for an example.

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Sturdy
Impish 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Def
- Spikes
- Whirlwind
- Roost
- Toxic / Taunt / Brave Bird

A rain team is probably mainly interested in this for safe switches into Extreme Killer Arceus, or Groudon. Which it admittedly does pretty well; Skarmory shrugs off Arceus pretty easily in rain, can switch into Groudon without much risk if it lacks a Fire-type move, or can tank Outrages. It can also switch into Draco Meteors in a pinch, although it is very afraid of Thunder and Fire Blast. These defensive contributions are nice, but an offensive team probably wouldn't want to spend a whole slot on them. Fortunately, Skarmory has Spikes, making it easier to wear down the opposition, and it can also directly whittle down opponents with Toxic, or cockblock Ferrothorn with Taunt.

Anyone have any similar defensive pivots they want to share?

 

[hichez]

I'll vouch for Kingdra; I've tested it around a bit, and while it IS good, it requires a good amount of support to pull off. It's like Reshiram in the Sun almost; except it's faster and it does better against the thing that changes its weather, Groudon (pretty sure Kingdra 2HKOs Groudon with any move it has bar Dragon Pulse). It's quite good, but it DOES need a pretty huge amount of support and a fair share of prediction. This is assuming Specs set btw (Dpulse, Dmeteor, Surf, Hpump.)

Draco Metoer from Reshiram/kyurem-W doesn't depend on the sun that much. And vs. Rain teams I don't know if I would even want to commit to blue flare since most of the Reshiram sets I see use a choice item. Alslo Kingdra can also 2HKO groudon with or without support. Kingdra just isn't needed in most situations.

Where is Diagla at? Diagla is pretty versatile and has useful typing for a rain team and doesn't get decimated easily by other dragon types.

 

[Porii Sames]

I know you would never Blue Flare, which is why I'm saying that if you're using Rain offense, you can basically use any move with Kingdra and not have to worry too much about Groudon coming in since you can 2HKO it.

 

[qedragonite]

How about some good leads for Rain Offense? Kyogre and Dialga are the obvious ones, since Kyogre brings the rain and Dialga is a reliable hazard setter. As evidence by the above discussion Rain offense has many roles to fill, so I have trouble fitting one dimensional leads like Deoxys S on my teams. What useful leads do people use for their Rain teams, other than the obvious Kyogre and Dialga?

 

[Enguarde]

What useful leads do people use for their Rain teams, other than the obvious Kyogre and Dialga?

Those 2 are generally really great to utilise as leads in Rain Offense but another Pokemon I've had some great success with is scarfed Genesect.
Its ability to control momentum from the get go I have found to be invaluable and is great for taking down Pokemon such as Calm Mind Latias, Mewtwo, Darkrai (I usually carry something with Sleep Talk like Zekrom, in case of a Focus Sash, since I despise facing Darkrai). Revenging Rayquaza, taking out the Kyurems with Iron head, dealing decent damage to Lugia and Ho-oh with Thunder or simply exploding on either of them and or Extremekiller Arceus as a to either remove a threat or simply pave the way for Palkia or Kyogre rampage through the opponent. I'll be sure to test out Kingdra next time I run rain since I've never really been tempter to use it over Palkia until now.

Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Download
EVs: 252 Atk / 32 SAtk / 224 Spd
Naive Nature
- U-turn
- Explosion/Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Iron Head

 

[Salamence97]

I was inspired to make this team by the concept of 'Dragon Spam'. Just have an entire team fire off stupidly powerful rain boosted attacks, one after the other, and this was an extremely fun team.

Kyogre @Choice Specs
Drizzle
252 SpAtk/252 Spe
Modest
Water Spout
Hydro Pump
Thunder
Ice Beam

Palkia @Choice Specs
Pressure
252 SpAtk/252 Spe
Timid
Draco Meteor
Hydro Pump
Surf
Dragon Pulse

Keldeo @Choice Specs
Justified
252 SpAtk/252 Spe
Timid
Secret Sword
Surf
HP Ice
Hydro Pump

Kabutops @Choice Band
Swift Swim
252 Atk/252 Spe
Adamant
Waterfall
Stone Edge
Low Kick
Aqua Jet

Kingdra @Choice Specs
Swift Swim
252 SpAtk/252 Spe
Modest
Dragon Pulse
Surf
Hydro Pump
Draco Meteor

Arceus-Water @Splash Plate
Multitype
252 HP/252 Spe
Bold
Stealth Rock
Roar
Surf
Recover

Not trying to post an RMT here. In short, Kyogre is my main wallbreaker, with Palkia offering some support as well (Specs+rain boosted Hydro Pump is scary, even more when people don't expect SpecsKia). It also takes care of most Giratina. If Ferrothorn and Chansey survive the assault, Keldeo finishes them off. Two Swift Swimmers follow up all this chaos, while also checking other threats like ExtremeKiller (Kabutops) or Scarf Zekrom (Kingdra). Arceus is just my wild card, setting up SR, tanking random hits, etc.
How would such a team - basically the equivalent of Dragon Spam - fare in today's metagame ? Thoughts?

 

[ssbbm]

the main problem with that team is that you have no defensive backbone (i understand ho, but it's bad when absolutely nothing can take hits at all). for example, dd rayquaza sets up on choice locked water moves (especially from kingdra or kabutops) and then proceeds to set up a dd and sweep.

what i'd do to improve a waterspam team like that is to add a choice scarf pokemon then add one steel pokemon to counter dragons. i'd also run dragon pokemon, since dragon + water spam is really cool (the majority of my uber teams actually focus on water + dragon cores). i have a similar balance team to this, but if i wanted to go full HO i'd probably run

choice scarf kyogre / choice specs palkia / life orb kingdra / steel arceus / offensive latias / (mixed kyurem-b / hone claws zekrom)

the main problem with the team would be ferrothorn (although hc zekrom / kyurem b mitigates that), but the real thing i think should be remembered is that kingdra / kabutops are not enough in terms of speed; you need a scarfer!

 

[Salamence97]

the main problem with that team is that you have no defensive backbone (i understand ho, but it's bad when absolutely nothing can take hits at all). for example, dd rayquaza sets up on choice locked water moves (especially from kingdra or kabutops) and then proceeds to set up a dd and sweep.

what i'd do to improve a waterspam team like that is to add a choice scarf pokemon then add one steel pokemon to counter dragons. i'd also run dragon pokemon, since dragon + water spam is really cool (the majority of my uber teams actually focus on water + dragon cores). i have a similar balance team to this, but if i wanted to go full HO i'd probably run

choice scarf kyogre / choice specs palkia / life orb kingdra / steel arceus / offensive latias / (mixed kyurem-b / hone claws zekrom)

the main problem with the team would be ferrothorn (although hc zekrom / kyurem b mitigates that), but the real thing i think should be remembered is that kingdra / kabutops are not enough in terms of speed; you need a scarfer!

Just a typo on my side. My Arceus is 252 HP/252 Def Bold, so it can actually survive LO Ray's +1 Outrage, WoW it, and then I play accordingly. Of course I lose Arceus in the process, but its mostly one time use since it dies to Thunders and Grass Knots anyway.
As for Dragon types, did you miss Palkia and Kingdra?
Also, I originally made this team for a mono-type tourney, that's why no Steels. I will try it with some other Pokes when I get the time.

 

[Hugin]

I'd swap Arceus' type to something that covers your resistances better, and bring in a sweeper with a different type(MewTwo?) to replace Palkia or Keldeo.

 

[Porii Sames]

Totally off topic from anything, but I just want to put on the table that a full HO team with a RestTalk Ogre is crazy good. Ogre is SO useful for absorbing damage and either phazing, Scalding, or absorbing status afterwards.

Defensive Ogre on an offensive team works wonders.

 

[bygbyrd]

A very good example of an offensive rain team is Go10's Unlimited Victory Works team (even though it uses T-tar). Here's the link: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3469115

 

[Tobes]

Beartic @ Life Orb
Swift Swim
Adamant 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
- Icicile Crash
- Low Kick / Superpower
- Swords Dance
- Encore

And now for something completely different. Beartic is a very odd Swift Swimmer, having no Water-typing at all. As such it plays quite differently from your typical Swift Swim sweeper, since it doesn't have a double-STAB to throw around. However, its offensive typing is very good against Ubers walls, especially the ones the average Swift Swimmer does not like dealing with: Groudon, Giratina, and Grass Arceus, to name a few. Beartic also has access to Fighting-type coverage moves, allowing it to demolish Ferrothorn, another consistent nuisance for rain-teams (although Kabutops can do that too). Furthermore, Beartic has access to the extremely valuable Encore, allowing it to make set-up opportunities for itself against things like Ferrothorn and Forretress.

Beartic is not a great Swift Swimmer though. For one, it's slow as balls. It just barely outspeeds Mewtwo in rain, and even with a Jolly nature can't match up to Timid Base 90 Scarfers, let alone Genesect or Palkia. It's in fact so slow that support Groudon outspeeds it, making Beartic much less effective at dealing with it, which should be one of its defining niches. Beartic is also heavily dependent on getting that boost, so much so that I found myself using Wobbuffet to support it. And at that point, while running SD Kabutops side-by-side for comparison purposes, I realized I'd generally much rather use Wobbuffet to set up Kabutops instead, unless the opponent was really really weak to Ice-type attacks.

Beartic can do some nice things, and is very unique for an Ubers Swift Swimmer, but it really hasn't impressed me at all, in spite of my initial enthusiasm for the set. Anyone have experience with Beartic (or other unusual Swift Swimmers) that they'd like to share?

 

[Hack]

I used Beartic for a while, I think it was when Shrangs analysis of it was beginning to take form. It's not too good, but it was fun using. I paired it with Kabutops to form a dual swift swim partnershit where Beartic smashed Giratina and Groudon, common checks for Kabutops. Sometimes I could set up with encore on stuff like Lugia roosting and Giratina sleep talking, but you rarely got to sweep.

 

[polop]

I used Beartic for a while, I think it was when Shrangs analysis of it was beginning to take form. It's not too good, but it was fun using. I paired it with Kabutops to form a dual swift swim partnershit where Beartic smashed Giratina and Groudon, common checks for Kabutops. Sometimes I could set up with encore on stuff like Lugia roosting and Giratina sleep talking, but you rarely got to sweep.

My experience was completely different X_X. That thing is SLOW and even though it breaks through most Uber walls, WEAK. Base 110 attack and a lack of the Water-STAB that most other swift swim sweepers have mean that Support Arceus forms not weak to its moves (primarily Ghost and Water) can easily burn or outright OHKO the weak Beartic with a move of their choice as Beartic's +2 Icicle Crash will not OHKO them. To add to this, Beartic needs to rely on Superpower and Low Kick for fighting type coverage. While I will admit that the abundance of heavy pokemon might cut Low Kick some slack, it doesn't change the fact that Manaphy will now wall it for eternity. If you wanna go with Superpower you now are relying on a move that will potentially lower your boosted offenses (there's a defense drop but its not that big as Beartic will generally be shot down by most physical moves anyway). Really if there's an enemy bulky water, or even a Choice Scarfed Revenge Killer like Palkia, Terrakion, Genesect or even Timid Dialga / Base 90 dragon on the other team, Beartic's ability to shut down enemy walls for its Swift Swim friends will become a lot more tougher. Encore may make life easier for setting up but without Shadow Tag you can just switch in a revenge killer as it fails to Encore and setup your move of choice. It probably has some niche (Hack He Must for example actually managed to use it successfully), but I just haven't been able to exploit it very well :(.

Anyone have experience with Beartic (or other unusual Swift Swimmers) that they'd like to share?

Omastar and Ludicolo are swift swimmers that I've had great success with. Omastar, while its Speed isn't exactly great at first like Beartic's, can be boosted by Shell Smash to extremely high levels. Combine this with a Rock-typing and a very decent base 115 Defense stat and Omastar is basically impossible to revenge in the rain after a Shell Smash. The power boost brough by Shell Smash is huge, it lets it do over 80% to Ferrothorn with Hydro Pump in the rain, meaning you can actually play around with Spikes to the point where you can just sweep lategame. Its no slouch before Shell Smash either, it always OHKOes 240 HP Arceus with Hydro Pump after Stealth Rock, meaning it can be like Kabutops and act as a sort of Extremekiller check. The only thing it lacks that Kabutops has is Low Kick (or a powerful fighting-type move) and Rapid Spin, but access to Ice Beam that allows it to OHKO Grass Arceus after a boost and Shell Smash is more then enough to differentiate it.

Ludicolo, while it may at first appear to be a watered-down version of Kingdra, is far more then just that. Its use lies in exploiting its peculiar typing. Unlike other swift swimmers, it isn't victim to Ferrothorn's Leech Seed and a quad resist to Water-type attacks lets it switch in on enemy Surf's. With Life Orb Focus Blast, it can easily 2HKO Ferrothorn, a feat that even Choice Specs Kingdra cannot achieve. STAB Grass Knot and Giga Drain let it wear down Kyogre and Water Arceus. Enemy Grass Arceus looking to defeat this foe face eating an Ice Beam that 2HKOes. It may have issues with Chansey and Giratina-a but you can run a Swords Dance set and start some shenanigans to beat these Chansey I suppose, but I personally prefer spamming powerful Special Attacks more. Not to mention you can just combine Ludicolo with a Sub Punch Palkia (who basically defeats all its counters), and its actually going to be hard stopping it from sweeping teams late game.

Ludicolo can also be more annoying then Shaymin-S when it comes to abusing Toxic Spikes thanks to the fact it gets Leech Seed and Rain Dish, but that's a completely different story with a different ability.