np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane

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Yes Politoed is a lot of support but the fact that it can maintain its own weather and the fact that it can hit all other weather starters Super Effectively/very hard (ninetales) needs to be taken into consideration. And its not only the little support that are making people clamor about it being uber, it also has decent bulk and Regenerator. This pretty much makes it hazards immune, and if hazards aren't down it gives it a form of recovery.
It loses 1 vs. 1 to Garchomp, who OHKOs with unboosted Outrage. Not saying this is why it isn't uber, but that should just give you an idea of just how bulky it is, and just how "deadly" it is not. Tornadus-T doesn't have any (specially based) set-up moves and is flat out outmuscled by some dudes. LO Hurricane also fails to OHKO Latios, who OHKOs back with Draco Meteor. Sure, it's Hurricane, Speed, and Regenerator are nifty but it just doesn't outmuscle the entire metagame with sheer speed and force. It just doesn't, sorry. That is why I can't understand how we can classify this thing as sweeping the large majority of pokemon in OU. It just doesn't, LOL. Facts are facts.
 
Yes Politoed is a lot of support but the fact that it can maintain its own weather and the fact that it can hit all other weather starters Super Effectively/very hard (ninetales) needs to be taken into consideration. And its not only the little support that are making people clamor about it being uber, it also has decent bulk and Regenerator. This pretty much makes it hazards immune, and if hazards aren't down it gives it a form of recovery.
Specially defensive ninetales takes scald like its nothing. Tyranitar can come in on scald if it doesn't burn.
 

dragonuser

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I was talking about Tornadus-T ("it" may have gotten a bit confusing), and I was saying how Tornadus-T if necessary could prolong rain, and could even defeat most other weather starters if needed as it hits many Super Effectively or extremely hard (both Ninetales and Hippowdon don't like taking LO Hurricanes).

EDIT: because I'm getting tired of spamming this thread with posts

Just because it lacks a Special Attack boosting move doesn't make it not broken. Did Genesect have that? Nope. Just because it lacks that doesn't mean much. Also all those Pokemon you mentioned are very shaky checks at best. They can't come in vs Tornadus-T and if they have taken any prior damage or hazards they can't reliably tank hits. Not to mention we are talking about LO Tornadus-T, not even Choice Specs. Stealth Rocks can easily be classified as "little support" and are prevalent in this metagame, and after a few switch ins those Pokemon can't even win 1v1. And its not hard to lure those Pokemon into taking damage as Tornadus-T is faster than all of them and has U-Turn. Tornadus-T can power through most of the metagame with a little residual/prior damage which is not hard to accumulate over a match.
 
Tornadus-t DOES have reliable counters, no one is saying that it is uncounterable. Ok so if its counterable its ou What people are saying is that it has a very low number of counters, as well as few checks. While yeah, spdef rachi is a solid counter, its essentially the only one that will never lose to tornadus-t, and a good rain team will have something that can easily set up on rachi, This argument is invalid, so i suppose that every dragon is uber because magnezone can trap steels? such as its own sub cm version. An another gay pokemon Spdef rotom-w is 3hko'd by hurricane after rocks, so its hardly a reliable switch in. Honestly i dont know what is a reliable switch in for torna then, it needs 3 hits to ko it so its not good? do you need 10 switch ins to say that its a good check? Those two are really the only two pokemon that are viable in ou without the niche created as a tornadus-t check. Now this would be fine, but the other pokemon people mentioned don't even do their job as a tornadus-t check. Lanturn, Metagross etc are all hit fairly hard by hurricane (around 30%) and have no reliable recovery. Yeah i know i would never use any of the pokemon you mentioned Just hit them with a hurricane + rocks, and they can't switch in again against specs, and a LO hurricane + u-turn puts them in the same place.

Tornadus-t hits like a truck with stab base 120 power attacks off of 110 spatk, but its also the fastest commonly used pokemon, as ala said earlier. Honestly tornadus-t is not that powerfull as it seems, 110 spatk is not that high, maybe its the flying type that makes it hard to deal with it Not only can scarfers not switch in, tornadus can easily switch out after a kill, gaining 33% without rocks, or even gaining 8% with rocks down. Just a simple tentacruel paired with nadus can switch into most common scarfers, and spin away rocks, while also spreading toxic to tornadus' checks, such as rotom and zapdos, making them completely unable to check tornadus. Then again we cant speak about supporting pokemon, otherwhise any dragon is uber

Also, chansey fully counters that salamence, so does spdef hippo, rachi in rain etc.well sp def hippo cant and rachi is fucked if there isnt rain up, anyway who cares about this.
First of all, could you please not reply in different coloured text in a quotation? It's rather annoying, and against the rules. Secondly, your argument is lacking substance you this post doesn't provide much of an actual rebuttal.

I will split up your responses to Gary and discuss each.

Ok so if its counterable its ou
This is hardly true. Genesect was hard countered by Heatran and it's Uber. ExtremeKiller Arceus, Groudon, Kyogre, and many other Ubers have definite OU counters; however, that doesn't mean they're OU worthy, correct?

This argument is invalid, so i suppose that every dragon is uber because magnezone can trap steels?
I suppose Genesect should be Uber since Dugtrio can trap its counters? Oh wait.. it is. Additionally, as Gary said, there are several things that aren't steels that can check dragons. Lati@s, for example, is countered by Tyranitar while Salamence is checked by Mamoswine.

An another gay pokemon
I never knew that a badged member would throw out such a petty and immature insult in a post attempting to prove his correctness? This is redundant and completely uncalled for.

Honestly i dont know what is a reliable switch in for torna then, it needs 3 hits to ko it so its not good? do you need 10 switch ins to say that its a good check?
Gary's point was that Rotom-W gets worn down easily from Tornadus-T over the course of the match. You must keep in mind that U-turn's, eventual Confusions, Hazards, and U-turn'ing into a counter hurts Rotom-W. Your attempt to push in a sarcastic "10 switch-ins" is unneeded as well.


Yeah i know i would never use any of the pokemon you mentioned
His point was that Lanturn and Metagross aren't good Tornadus-T checks, so you just agreed with him. If you were referring to Jirachi (your post was so vague, unspecific, and bullshit-filled that I didn't know what you were talking about), how can you not use Jirachi? Is Jirachi too gay for you, as you specifically said earlier?

Honestly tornadus-t is not that powerfull as it seems, 110 spatk is not that high, maybe its the flying type that makes it hard to deal with it
Hurricane has great coverage and its power is comparable to Blaziken's Hi Jump Kick. 110 boosted with a Life Orb is considerably powerful, the same power as Latias, and a base 120 STAB with a fantastic side effect in confusion is definitely nothing to trifle with. If all Pokemon need to have a Latios-like base Special Attack to fit on your teams, then you're very picky.

. Then again we cant speak about supporting pokemon, otherwhise any dragon is uber
As said earlier, this is a terrible argument.

well sp def hippo cant and rachi is fucked if there isnt rain up, anyway who cares about this
Your ignorance toward what even counters a certain set shows that you shouldn't be participating in this discussion.

Have a nice day.
 
Hurricane has great coverage and its power is comparable to Blaziken's Hi Jump Kick. 110 boosted with a Life Orb is considerably powerful, the same power as Latias, and a base 120 STAB with a fantastic side effect in confusion is definitely nothing to trifle with. If all Pokemon need to have a Latios-like base Special Attack to fit on your teams, then you're very picky.
Please don't throw that around. Blaziken could boost the power of Hi Jump Kick with Swords Dance, Tornadus-T cannot. Blaziken could boost it's speed by pressing Protect, Tornadus-T cannot. Blaziken doesn't need weather to be effective, Tornadus-T does. (If you think Sun made Blaziken you are sadly sadly SADLY mistaken).
 
My point was power. I wasn't comparing Tornadus-T to Blaziken. I thought this was manifested through context of his response, but I guess not.
 
ITornadus-T has very few counters, but its Speed means that pretty much you need a Scarfer to outspeed and revenge kill him, or something obscure like Jolteon or Weavile. It is overcentralizing the metagame (I do never make one team without having a solid counter to Tornadus-T); not to mention that most Hurricane's resists are too frail to take repeated Hurricanes. As someone said above, there are more common things that resist Dragon than things that resist Flying! And even then, Tornadus-T has Superpower or Focus Blast to get rid of them. Not to mention that Tornadus-T technically takes no damage from Stealth Rock due to Regenerator, mitigating the need of Rapid Spin support. If that is not the definition of broken, I don't know what it is. However, I am still inclined to believe that Tornadus-T is not broken and should not be banned. It would certainly not be as "broken" as it is if there was no rain, although this is not to be discussed as of now.



Keldeo doesn't need weather to be effective (it can, in fact, wreck avoc ouside rain), and people don't say that it is broken. Why?

I think the problem is the mentality. "Why do I need to run a Tornadus-T check? That is overcentralizing!" That argument is bullshit frankly (again, not lashing at you, just the mentality a lot of people are sharing in this thread).

Keldeo isn't broken because it has Hard counters and plenty of checks that are easy to fit on your team. Tornadus-T has hard counters and checks that people don't really like using, and they get sick of it U-turning away (like Pursuit or faster dudes don't exist).

I
Just because it lacks a Special Attack boosting move doesn't make it not broken. Did Genesect have that? Nope. Just because it lacks that doesn't mean much. Also all those Pokemon you mentioned are very shaky checks at best. They can't come in vs Tornadus-T and if they have taken any prior damage or hazards they can't reliably tank hits. Not to mention we are talking about LO Tornadus-T, not even Choice Specs. Stealth Rocks can easily be classified as "little support" and are prevalent in this metagame, and after a few switch ins those Pokemon can't even win 1v1. And its not hard to lure those Pokemon into taking damage as Tornadus-T is faster than all of them and has U-Turn. Tornadus-T can power through most of the metagame with a little residual/prior damage which is not hard to accumulate over a match.
Actually, Genesect had download. It didn't have to waste a turn raising it's special attack. The point is, you can't point to a way someone plays Tornadus-T over the course of a match against your team to how it is uber. If you can't keep your dudes healthy and don't want to run a T-T check, how the hell is that my problem? You will lose to it. That doesn't make it uber. There are hard counters out there that I have outlined in this thread many times and it is up to you to keep your counters or checks alive. If you don't, you lose to it. That is pokemon. If my Dragonite counter dies and I get swept by it I deserve to lose. It is as simple as that.
 
I think the problem is the mentality. "Why do I need to run a Tornadus-T check? That is overcentralizing!" That argument is bullshit frankly (again, not lashing at you, just the mentality a lot of people are sharing in this thread).

Keldeo isn't broken because it has Hard counters and plenty of checks that are easy to fit on your team. Tornadus-T has hard counters and checks that people don't really like using, and they get sick of it U-turning away (like Pursuit or faster dudes don't exist).
I just wanted to take issue with this part of the post real quick; what counter to Tornadus-T is either faster or has Pursuit? Either you sac something to it in order to Pursuit-trap it, or you counter it defensively and let it U-Turn out; you can't do both.
 
I just wanted to take issue with this part of the post real quick; what counter to Tornadus-T is either faster or has Pursuit? Either you sac something to it in order to Pursuit-trap it, or you counter it defensively and let it U-Turn out; you can't do both.
Correct. That is pokemon. That is the same thing with shit like Terrakion and Salamence and other hard hitting offensive dues. You either sack something and revenge it with a faster dude, or defensively counter them.

Faster than Tornadus-T and can pursuit it? Weavile. Yes, it can't switch in (it can't switch into Salamence either but that is not my problem) but hey what else can you do? This is BW2 OU. Run with the big boys.

I'm #2.

Ban Tornadus-T pls
Because you got to #2 with it? Congrats on the success. That is hardly a viable argument though... -_-
 

Neliel

Sacred Sword
First of all, could you please not reply in different coloured text in a quotation? It's rather annoying, and against the rules. Secondly, your argument is lacking substance you this post doesn't provide much of an actual rebuttal.

I will split up your responses to Gary and discuss each.



This is hardly true. Genesect was hard countered by Heatran and it's Uber. ExtremeKiller Arceus, Groudon, Kyogre, and many other Ubers have definite OU counters; however, that doesn't mean they're OU worthy, correct?



I suppose Genesect should be Uber since Dugtrio can trap its counters? Oh wait.. it is. Additionally, as Gary said, there are several things that aren't steels that can check dragons. Lati@s, for example, is countered by Tyranitar while Salamence is checked by Mamoswine.



I never knew that a badged member would throw out such a petty and immature insult in a post attempting to prove his correctness? This is redundant and completely uncalled for.



Gary's point was that Rotom-W gets worn down easily from Tornadus-T over the course of the match. You must keep in mind that U-turn's, eventual Confusions, Hazards, and U-turn'ing into a counter hurts Rotom-W. Your attempt to push in a sarcastic "10 switch-ins" is unneeded as well.




His point was that Lanturn and Metagross aren't good Tornadus-T checks, so you just agreed with him. If you were referring to Jirachi (your post was so vague, unspecific, and bullshit-filled that I didn't know what you were talking about), how can you not use Jirachi? Is Jirachi too gay for you, as you specifically said earlier?



Hurricane has great coverage and its power is comparable to Blaziken's Hi Jump Kick. 110 boosted with a Life Orb is considerably powerful, the same power as Latias, and a base 120 STAB with a fantastic side effect in confusion is definitely nothing to trifle with. If all Pokemon need to have a Latios-like base Special Attack to fit on your teams, then you're very picky.



As said earlier, this is a terrible argument.



Your ignorance toward what even counters a certain set shows that you shouldn't be participating in this discussion.

Have a nice day.
1) Sorry but i fail to see any counter for groudon, kyogre, or arceus in ou, maybe its me because im ignorant. Also, genesect is uber but it doesnt necessarely means that it should be uber.

2) So if genesect is uber because dugtrio can trap fire pokemons Haxorus, Dragonite, Kindgra, Garchomp are all uber because magnezone traps steels? Oh wait, they arent uber! Latios is countered by tyranitar but what if i pair it with dugtrio? uber! Salamence is checked by mamoswine you say, its a great argument but mamoswine existed in dp and mence was uber!

3) just a thought about water pulse+thunder jirachi which can hax a whole team, i dont hate jirachi or anything like that.

4) You still havent answered, how many switch ins do you need to say that something can counter tornadus? 3 is more than necessary, and once tornadus u-turns you can volt switch gaining momentum

5) yeah i agree with him Lanturn and Metagross are bad check for it and anyway they dont have much competition in ou. I wasnt referring to jirachi

6) I was just saying that the fact it has 110 sp atk doesnt count as an argument for being uber, because 110 is not high, Landorus, Magnezone, Hydreygon, Reuniclus, Azelf, Zapdos, Keldeo, Latios, Gengar, Volcarona, alakzam, chandelure all have superior stat, but the point that makes torna-t good is the flyiing type because flying resistors are quite rare in ou.

7) well as i said is a good argument to em.

8) 350 Atk VS 267 Def and 404 HP (210 Base Power): 257 - 303 (63.61% - 75%)
350 Atk (-2) VS 267 Def and 404 HP (210 Base Power): 129 - 152 (31.93% - 37.62%)
Wow amazing counter, im not good at math but i think its a 2ko, isnt it?
As for jirachi i said some post before that the argument rain doesnt count, because i can say "what if i have sun up".
 
Correct. That is pokemon. That is the same thing with shit like Terrakion and Salamence and other hard hitting offensive dues. You either sack something and revenge it with a faster dude, or defensively counter them.

Faster than Tornadus-T and can pursuit it? Weavile. Yes, it can't switch in (it can't switch into Salamence either but that is not my problem) but hey what else can you do? This is BW2 OU. Run with the big boys.
That wasn't an argument for or against Tornadus-T, I just wanted to clear that up. As a matter of fact, I have been using Weavile for my anti-Tornadus/Dragon duties, but that's off-topic.
 

Eo Ut Mortus

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Because you got to #2 with it? Congrats on the success. That is hardly a viable argument though... -_-
No, I didn't use it. I was confirming my identity in the thread because I made voting requirements and at the same time making an unrelated comment regarding my opinion of Tornadus-T's status as a suspect.
 
I think the problem is the mentality. "Why do I need to run a Tornadus-T check? That is overcentralizing!" That argument is bullshit frankly (again, not lashing at you, just the mentality a lot of people are sharing in this thread).

Keldeo isn't broken because it has Hard counters and plenty of checks that are easy to fit on your team. Tornadus-T has hard counters and checks that people don't really like using, and they get sick of it U-turning away (like Pursuit or faster dudes don't exist).



Actually, Genesect had download. It didn't have to waste a turn raising it's special attack. The point is, you can't point to a way someone plays Tornadus-T over the course of a match against your team to how it is uber. If you can't keep your dudes healthy and don't want to run a T-T check, how the hell is that my problem? You will lose to it. That doesn't make it uber. There are hard counters out there that I have outlined in this thread many times and it is up to you to keep your counters or checks alive. If you don't, you lose to it. That is pokemon. If my Dragonite counter dies and I get swept by it I deserve to lose. It is as simple as that.
Why are you still ignoring one of Tornadus-T's most important aspects? Its ability to survive allows it to beat the vast majority of the OU tier easily. Hurricane isn't OHKO'ing anything, but nothing can stop Tornadus-T from performing the cycle of Hurricane/Focus Blast -> U-Turn -> Repeat.

1) Sorry but i fail to see any counter for groudon, kyogre, or arceus in ou, maybe its me because im ignorant. Also, genesect is uber but it doesnt necessarely means that it should be uber.

2) So if genesect is uber because dugtrio can trap fire pokemons Haxorus, Dragonite, Kindgra, Garchomp are all uber because magnezone traps steels? Oh wait, they arent uber! Latios is countered by tyranitar but what if i pair it with dugtrio? uber! Salamence is checked by mamoswine you say, its a great argument but mamoswine existed in dp and mence was uber!

3) just a thought about water pulse+thunder jirachi which can hax a whole team, i dont hate jirachi or anything like that.

4) You still havent answered, how many switch ins do you need to say that something can counter tornadus? 3 is more than necessary, and once tornadus u-turns you can volt switch gaining momentum

5) yeah i agree with him Lanturn and Metagross are bad check for it and anyway they dont have much competition in ou. I wasnt referring to jirachi

6) I was just saying that the fact it has 110 sp atk doesnt count as an argument for being uber, because 110 is not high, Landorus, Magnezone, Hydreygon, Reuniclus, Azelf, Zapdos, Keldeo, Latios, Gengar, Volcarona, alakzam, chandelure all have superior stat, but the point that makes torna-t good is the flyiing type because flying resistors are quite rare in ou.

7) well as i said is a good argument to em.

8) 350 Atk VS 267 Def and 404 HP (210 Base Power): 257 - 303 (63.61% - 75%)
350 Atk (-2) VS 267 Def and 404 HP (210 Base Power): 129 - 152 (31.93% - 37.62%)
Wow amazing counter, im not good at math but i think its a 2ko, isnt it?
As for jirachi i said some post before that the argument rain doesnt count, because i can say "what if i have sun up".
Just... just stop. Also, what pokemon are those random calcs referring to?
 
It loses 1 vs. 1 to Garchomp, who OHKOs with unboosted Outrage. Not saying this is why it isn't uber, but that should just give you an idea of just how bulky it is, and just how "deadly" it is not. Tornadus-T doesn't have any (specially based) set-up moves and is flat out outmuscled by some dudes. LO Hurricane also fails to OHKO Latios, who OHKOs back with Draco Meteor. Sure, it's Hurricane, Speed, and Regenerator are nifty but it just doesn't outmuscle the entire metagame with sheer speed and force. It just doesn't, sorry. That is why I can't understand how we can classify this thing as sweeping the large majority of pokemon in OU. It just doesn't, LOL. Facts are facts.


RaikouLover, you fail to see that these pokemon can't swich in to a hurricane and btw it is a six vs six battle, so stop these stupid one vs one sanarios please its getting old. BTW hidden power ice says Hi to Garchomp. Now I think we need to stop comparing Tornadus-T to to other OU pokes because it is not the same as any other OU poke. It has a wonderful combination of Regenerator, Power (110 sp. att is still damn strong), Speed, Great Stab, and Good Moveset. Now in Rain it can fire off 100% hurricanes that only Rotom,Rachi,Chansey,Blissey (does not like superpower), Sp.deff Zapdos, Lanturn, Metagross, Heatran (does not like fight moves),and Tyranitar(same case as heatran) can take without being taken out with 2 hits. If you compare it to Kyrum-B (who has a bad typing and only 95 base speed) you can easily see that Kyrum has weakness to stealth rocks, lower speed (not bad but much lower), can't u-turn and has no regenerator. Now if we continue to compare it with other pokes, we will never reach a verdict and we could go back and forth all day. Now if we look at Tornadus-T outside of rain does it still have the same traits, BOTTOM LINE YES IT DOES, it may not have 100% hurricane but other than that it is the SAME POKE. Infact it has 50% or 70% hurricane but it still can hit, we cant make it like it will never hit because we dont control luck. Now it has the ability to make use of heat wave and other moveset changes and it could even carry rain dance. So Rain or not it is the same poke just with a lesser chance to hit hurricane but still a chance. Looking a the list of counters I put up the only ones used in OU are of course the Ou pokes and only Rachi,Rotom,and chansey are the only good walls to stop hurricanes. With that said, Yes I believe it should go uber, but others may disagree, and that is fine.
 
Why are you still ignoring one of Tornadus-T's most important aspects? Its ability to survive allows it to beat the vast majority of the OU tier easily. Hurricane isn't OHKO'ing anything, but nothing can stop Tornadus-T from performing the cycle of Hurricane/Focus Blast -> U-Turn -> Repeat.
Correction, YOU can't stop the cycle. We haven't been swept by it yet. How is that an argument for Uber?

Survival is part of pokemon and it is a way for some dude to win. Pretty much every sweeper's goal is to outlast it's counters. Tornadus-T gets aided by Regenerator in that regard but there are plenty of bulkier sweepers that do the same. It is hardly an argument for "Uber" status. It sounds more like a viable strategy.

Rotom,Rachi,Chansey,Blissey (does not like superpower), Sp.deff Zapdos, Lanturn, Metagross, Heatran (does not like fight moves),and Tyranitar(same case as heatran)
Thank you for reiterating the long list of counters. Now try using one.
 
Also, just look at the set on the signature of raikoulover; you are saying that tornadus-t should be banned because it has no counters, lol then tell me a counter for that Salamence. Seriously if you find one thing that can counter it then ill vote tornadus uber.
Unfortunately, something like max Def eviolite chansey probably works...but that's really irrelevant lol. A good example though--SpDrachi shuts down tornadus way more easily than anything does to that mence set (and imagine if that set got a moxie boost? I doubt there's anything that isn't 2HKOed).

The point here that seems to be coming up a lot is that torny can wear down its counters by using u-turn. Well, this is 100% not true for rachi--run wish + protect if you must, both moves are viable for other stuff. I guarantee that that set will not fail to come in on torny as many times throughout the match as you want and wall it for days (assuming no ridiculous hax).

The wearing down notion does have bearing though on the other proposed counters--rotom-w for example. It just so happens that tom was not given a reliable healing move, so it is thus unable to come in on torny repeatedly throughout the match without losing health in the process. OK, so this is not a foolproof counter to torny, but it is a poke that can reliably come into any move and threaten heavy damage multiple times throughout a match. It also has pain split which, while not the most reliable healing move, helps its survivability, and it can run a great chestoresto set as well.

Then what about stuff like SpD skarmory? It can easily live 2 hurricanes after rocks and roost back up. If the opponent taunts, they a) must not be speced, meaning you're taking a lot less damage, and b) are risking the predicted BB and subsequent ~40% lost, a 2HKO after rocks or a couple rounds of LO. And then, skarmory can just come in on one of the many things that it hard-walls--in rain, basically every physical dragon to start with--and recover any health lost in that encounter.

So what's my conclusion? Well, I could still probably be swayed at this point, but it seems to me like this: torny has at least 1 ABSOLUTE counter in SpDrachi, and many good checks such as rotom-w, SpD skarm, heck, any SpD steel in rain not weak to fighting does ok. No, these pokes cannot come on torny an infinite number of times without losing health, but they can come in on any attack and have an advantageous matchup. Honestly, something like bandkion is much harder to switch into without losing health each time--say you send in gliscor, one of the best terra checks, vs bandkion. You don't have PH activated yet, so you take 12% from rocks, ~45% from SE, and are left at 37% with toxic orb now activated. You use protect to live the next SE as they switch to any poke with an ice move. Now you're at 50%. Even if you protect again, you're leaving the field with 62%, which will be 50% on your next switch-in--how are you going to take another hit from terra?

Anyway, as I said, I'm not completely decided yet, but I just don't think I see what makes torny so much harder to check than other top-tier offensive OU pokes.

Oh, and I really don't see what keldeo has that makes it even possibly broken at all. Like literally, what does it have over terrakion? Possible double STAB on hpump, good partnering with ttar, and...that's about it. And in return, terra gets unresisted STAB, a set-up move that doubles his primary offensive stat, a potential SpD boost from SS, a speed-boosting move, SR and taunt, and more. terra can run something like ten viable sets (band, scarf, SRlead, subSD rock gem, subsalac, subliechi rock polish, double dance, LO SD, even bulky double dance is viable and there are probably more). Keldeo has like scarf, specs, CM, and subCM, and gets walled by so much more. Don't see the argument for this one.
 
If you need to pack Weavile to deal with something there must be something VERY wrong there. Tornadus-T has one reliable counter (jirachi) and its checks are too frail to switch in and regenerator allows you to switch out and come back later to wreack havoc. Before people go and say that Tornadus is frail too blabalbal i must say that the fact is its near impossible to hit it and it can recover damage by switching out makes this a moot point.
 
Ban Tornadus-T pls.
Congrats on making reqs. I'll get around to doing it soon. Just curious for what the reasoning of your decision is. Although it is not my place to say, I really wish we had to give valid reasons for voting Uber. It's like innocent until proven guilty, rather than the other way around.

If you need to pack Weavile to deal with something there must be something VERY wrong there.
God forbid we have to pack checks to threats in OU. I should be able to use whatever I want and still win. I shouldn't have to use a pokemon I don't like using just to make sure I don't lose to certain pokemon!!!
 
Unfortunately, something like max Def eviolite chansey probably works...but that's really irrelevant lol. A good example though--SpDrachi shuts down tornadus way more easily than anything does to that mence set (and imagine if that set got a moxie boost? I doubt there's anything that isn't 2HKOed).

The point here that seems to be coming up a lot is that torny can wear down its counters by using u-turn. Well, this is 100% not true for rachi--run wish + protect if you must, both moves are viable for other stuff. I guarantee that that set will not fail to come in on torny as many times throughout the match as you want and wall it for days (assuming no ridiculous hax).

The wearing down notion does have bearing though on the other proposed counters--rotom-w for example. It just so happens that tom was not given a reliable healing move, so it is thus unable to come in on torny repeatedly throughout the match without losing health in the process. OK, so this is not a foolproof counter to torny, but it is a poke that can reliably come into any move and threaten heavy damage multiple times throughout a match. It also has pain split which, while not the most reliable healing move, helps its survivability, and it can run a great chestoresto set as well.

Then what about stuff like SpD skarmory? It can easily live 2 hurricanes after rocks and roost back up. If the opponent taunts, they a) must not be speced, meaning you're taking a lot less damage, and b) are risking the predicted BB and subsequent ~40% lost, a 2HKO after rocks or a couple rounds of LO. And then, skarmory can just come in on one of the many things that it hard-walls--in rain, basically every physical dragon to start with--and recover any health lost in that encounter.

So what's my conclusion? Well, I could still probably be swayed at this point, but it seems to me like this: torny has at least 1 ABSOLUTE counter in SpDrachi, and many good checks such as rotom-w, SpD skarm, heck, any SpD steel in rain not weak to fighting does ok. No, these pokes cannot come on torny an infinite number of times without losing health, but they can come in on any attack and have an advantageous matchup. Honestly, something like bandkion is much harder to switch into without losing health each time--say you send in gliscor, one of the best terra checks, vs bandkion. You don't have PH activated yet, so you take 12% from rocks, ~45% from SE, and are left at 37% with toxic orb now activated. You use protect to live the next SE as they switch to any poke with an ice move. Now you're at 50%. Even if you protect again, you're leaving the field with 62%, which will be 50% on your next switch-in--how are you going to take another hit from terra?

Anyway, as I said, I'm not completely decided yet, but I just don't think I see what makes torny so much harder to check than other top-tier offensive OU pokes.

Oh, and I really don't see what keldeo has that makes it even possibly broken at all. Like literally, what does it have over terrakion? Possible double STAB on hpump, good partnering with ttar, and...that's about it. And in return, terra gets unresisted STAB, a set-up move that doubles his primary offensive stat, a potential SpD boost from SS, a speed-boosting move, SR and taunt, and more. terra can run something like ten viable sets (band, scarf, SRlead, subSD rock gem, subsalac, subliechi rock polish, double dance, LO SD, even bulky double dance is viable and there are probably more). Keldeo has like scarf, specs, CM, and subCM, and gets walled by so much more. Don't see the argument for this one.
Ill try to simply this. Keldeo can actually switch in stuff like close combat, earthquake, surf, hydro pump. Much less checks for it unlike terrakion who is checked by freaking Scizor.
 
Thank you for reiterating the long list of counters. Now try using one.[/QUOTE]

Incase you couldn't read ONLY 3 of Those couters are viable in OU and counters are not what makes a poke Broken. Look at Genesect, Rotom-H was an absolute CHECK but look where it is now.
 

Woodchuck

actual cannibal
is a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Tornadus-T can come in and spam Hurricane with almost no drawbacks due to Regenerator and then U-Turn out of its checks. If Tornadus-T can easily outlast its checks over the course of the game (especially true in Rotom-W's case) then that check is clearly not a very good one. We are no longer using the Characteristics of an Uber, so the characteristic that RaikouLover loves to refer to oh-so-often—the ability (or inability) of a Pokemon to sweep the majority of a metagame with little support—is no longer relevant. A Pokemon doesn't need to easily sweep the majority of a metagame to be Uber anymore. In Tornadus-T's case, it outruns every relevant non-scarfer in the metagame, threatens a OHKO after SR on almost every Pokemon with offensive presence with Choice Specs (the exception being Pokemon like Garchomp) and can easily switch out and regain its health with Regenerator should one of its few checks come in.

Regenerator, in the end, is what pushes Tornadus-T over the top. It is true that there are several Pokemon in OU that can force Tornadus-T out most of the time—Rotom-W and Jirachi are two of the only good ones (Zapdos is a piece of shit in this meta and Magnezone is 2HKOed)—but forcing out Tornadus-T is not enough to defeat it. Without Regenerator, you would be able to bring in a Hurricane resist and force it to take Stealth Rock and potentially Life Orb damage. You would potentially be able to wear it down over the course of the battle and prevent it from surviving long enough to pick apart your team.

With Regenerator you can't do that.

You can't wear down Tornadus-T.

This means that Tornadus can come in and attack without any "risk"; it can and WILL wear down all of its checks for its teammates to clean up. Yes, teammates and support are brought up a lot in this discussion, but Tornadus-T is one of the easiest Pokemon to support in the game. Rain is already the best weather and is easy to keep up, so stop pretending that it is a chore to use Drizzle, nor is it going out of your way to have Politoed on your team. U-Turn, Regenerator, and a powerful STAB with few resists means Tornadus-T can threaten 90% of the metagame-- and easily bring in a team member to take advantage of the weakened checks that it is unable to defeat by itself. This leads me to my next point: almost all of Tornadus-T's checks have little to no coverage or offensive presence. Jirachi, despite its status shenanigans, is one of the easiest Pokemon to switch into in the game. Rotom-W can't do anything to Grass- or Dragon-types. Zapdos... can't switch into anything on a rain team bar Tornadus-T and perhaps Tentacruel anyway. Due to the overall lack of Tornadus-T checks that are actually GOOD POKEMON, Tornadus can wear down and outlast all of its checks easily. It is this unique ability to outlast and tear holes in the opposing team that makes Tornadus-T broken.

And RaikouLover, your opinion of the quality of other users' arguments does not give you the right to be condescending. You complain about the lack you find in the arguments of those who disagree with you, but your method of presenting your arguments—with sarcasm, disrespect, and condescension—can, ironically, make you one of the most egregious sources of poor discussion.
 
Correction, YOU can't stop the cycle. We haven't been swept by it yet. How is that an argument for Uber?

If you are so talented and amazing at the game, explain how you could stop the cycle.

Survival is part of pokemon and it is a way for some dude to win. Pretty much every sweeper's goal is to outlast it's counters. Tornadus-T gets aided by Regenerator in that regard but there are plenty of bulkier sweepers that do the same. It is hardly an argument for "Uber" status. It sounds more like a viable strategy.

Rotom,Rachi,Chansey,Blissey (does not like superpower), Sp.deff Zapdos, Lanturn, Metagross, Heatran (does not like fight moves),and Tyranitar(same case as heatran)
Thank you for reiterating the long list of counters. Now try using one.

Rotom lacks reliable recovery, Rachi gets worn down by hazards, Blissey gets taunted, Zapdos gets worn down by hazards, Lanturn has no recovery, Metagross has no recovery, Heatran has no recovery and can't take a Focus Blast, and Tyranitar can't take a Blast.
Tornadus-T can just dance around many of the counters suggested. Instead of implying how much better you are than I am at this game, how about you talk about the subject at hand?
 
A Pokemon doesn't need to easily sweep the majority of a metagame to be Uber anymore. In Tornadus-T's case, it outruns every relevant non-scarfer in the metagame, threatens a OHKO after SR on almost every Pokemon with offensive presence with Choice Specs (the exception being Pokemon like Garchomp) and can easily switch out and regain its health with Regenerator should one of its few checks come in.
Both of these just aren't true. Jolteon, Weavile, Ice Shard, and Choice Scarfed items exist. And like I said, there are some bulkier offensive dudes that can survive a LO Hurricane. What happens from there is not an Uber characteristic. Just because a Tornadus-T user weakened your team and then swept it doesn't mean it is Uber. It required Drizzle, and weakening your team to do so. It wasn't press a damn button and be successful.


Regenerator, in the end, is what pushes Tornadus-T over the top. It is true that there are several Pokemon in OU that can force Tornadus-T out most of the time—Rotom-W and Jirachi are two of the only good ones (Zapdos is a piece of shit in this meta and Magnezone is 2HKOed)

You can't wear down Tornadus-T.
Regenerator is a nice ability. Saying Zapdos is a piece of shit in the metagame is not only untrue but it does not make the Tornadus-T argument any stronger. Furthermore, if you take a hit from Tornadus-T, it already took 25% from SR (SR only gives it 8% back per switch in), 20% form Life Orb damage on attack + U-turn. If you smacked it with Just one attack, it is already in the red range as, nearly 40% of its health is gone right there.


And RaikouLover, your opinion of the quality of other users' arguments does not give you the right to be condescending. You complain about the lack you find in the arguments of those who disagree with you, but your method of presenting your arguments—with sarcasm, disrespect, and condescension—can, ironically, make you one of the most egregious sources of poor discussion.
As condescending as my arguments sound, they are factually based. I have never once said "I believe Tornadus-T etc." or "you are wrong because." I simply say please provide valid factual evidence that Tornadus-T fits the support or offensive characterstics of Uber status. I've given people a thorough list of counters and checks but many seem dead set on saying "it doesn't matter Tornadus-T will outlast them." That is hardly a viable Uber characteristic and has never been defined before. We have never banned anything based on "it is too easy to outlive counters." The whole suspect process is turning into a slippery slope of finding reasons for banning things. Therefore, my arguments remain consistent on why we have banned things in the past and I use that to counter arguments, not my personal opinion of Tornadus-T. Take that with a grain of salt. Show me a better reason than "it can outlast it's counters and therefore is broken" because that sounds like nothing more than pokemon strategy of how you win the game that people are executing better than you have been able to handle. Based on facts, the thing has hard counters and I won't continue to repeat them because 90% of the people in here have acknowledge them and simply complain that the counters are "not good enough" or that they "cannot last long enough." That is more of a problem for the user or other pokemon, not Tornadus-T being just too good.
 

Woodchuck

actual cannibal
is a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
There are no Pokemon that are "press a damn button and be successful"; even the Pokemon that were banned this generation (Blaziken, Excadrill, Deoxys-S, Manaphy, even Darkrai...) were never considered to be that powerful. If we used this as criteria for an Uber then there would be very few banned Pokemon indeed!

You are operating from a different definition of an Uber as I am; it seems that in your opinion an Uber needs to have no counters and few checks and easily sweep the majority of the metagame. That is fine, it is merely a definition on which we shall need to agree to disagree. My point continues to be that Tornadus-T's checks are not effective enough at beating it to prevent it from defeating your team in the long run. I also stress that Pokemon do not exist in a vacuum, so if Tornadus-T is overpowering with support, it means something is broken, and as we have been denied the option of banning its chief support (rain) then the only right thing to do for the meta would be to ban Tornadus-T.

I would also like to point out that no one has quite been able to present "factual evidence" because in the end all of the discussion in this thread--and the conclusions we draw from it--are all based on opinion and subjective observation of the metagame.
 
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