np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane

[RabidChipmunk]

Pretty much all pokemon need support to sweep. Blaziken might have needed Slowbro to sweep, and the swift swimmers needed Rain (aka the same support that Tornadus-T needs) in order to be halfway decent. Lets be clear here, I am not, in any way, shape or form, comparing Tornadus-T to Swift Swimmers, merely pointing out that we have banned many pokemon that require support to sweep, ergo, needing "support" doesn't make Tornadus-T not broken.

I tried to make a point regarding this before, but no one responded to it (come on, guys, you make me feel bad). My point being, that saying Tornadus-T needs rain support isn't an entirely true statement. The relationship between Tornadus-T and Politoed is mutually symbiotic; Politoed gives Tornadus-T access to his most powerful STAB, and in return, Tornadus-T gives Politoed, and every other member of his team, easy access to momentum. Want to change Tornadus-T's weather to ruin his Hurricanes? You switch in Ninetales, BOOM, he U-turns off you, Regens most of the damage, Politoed comes back in and it's suddenly raining again. Bring in Jirachi to sponge a Hurricane? Again, he bounces off you and brings in something else to deal with you. And once Tornadus-T has helped his teammates in wearing down your team, he can come back in and clean up what remains, and you'll be hard pressed to stop him.

This, in my mind, is what makes Tornadus-T so dangerous, and in my humble opinion, broken. Yes, he requires support. But he's not parasitic about it -- he offers plenty of support to his teammates in return, mainly the ability to wear down members of his opponents team through Hurricanes and U-turns, and the ability to bring in any member of his team at almost any time. And after all that, he'll smack around just about every member of your team with Hurricanes.

 

[Vemane]

Weavile is not a good check. Yes, you get the clean OHKO with Ice Punch at least 57% of the time* but Weavile MUST come in on the revenge, as even 4 Atk LO U-turn threatens an OHKO after rocks* and by that time Tornadus-T has potentially already done the damage it needs to.

Even then, it's still a guessing game. Do you Pursuit, expecting them to switch, or do you Ice Punch for the KO? Pursuit* on the switch will hurt, badly, enough for a narrow chance to KO after Rocks, and a guaranteed KO after Rocks and LO damage, but if they predict the Pursuit you just lost your check, whether it's through U-turn (which OHKOs after Rocks and LO), Hurricane, or Torn-T's coverage.

*:

Damage Calculations

252Atk Weavile (Neutral) Ice Punch vs 4HP/0Def Tornadus Therian (Neutral): 92% - 110% (278 - 330 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 57% chance to OHKO.

4Atk Life Orb Tornadus Therian (Neutral) U-turn vs 4HP/0Def Weavile (Neutral): 65% - 78% (186 - 220 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

252Atk Life Orb Weavile (Neutral) Pursuit vs 4HP/0Def switching Tornadus Therian (Neutral): 65% - 76% (195 - 229 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

I was assuming rocks, for one. But in any case, a check is a pokemon capable of easily revenging, which weavile can do and more considering it has access to pursuit.

And while it is a guessing game, it is one for both parties (ie. prediction). There is just as much a chance of you miss predicting and choosing ice punch when they switch as them miss predicting and staying in, assuming pursuit. (for the record, from my experience, almost everyone, at least the first time, assumes ice punch/shard and switches out)

I tried to make a point regarding this before, but no one responded to it (come on, guys, you make me feel bad). My point being, that saying Tornadus-T needs rain support isn't an entirely true statement. The relationship between Tornadus-T and Politoed is mutually symbiotic; Politoed gives Tornadus-T access to his most powerful STAB, and in return, Tornadus-T gives Politoed, and every other member of his team, easy access to momentum. Want to change Tornadus-T's weather to ruin his Hurricanes? You switch in Ninetales, BOOM, he U-turns off you, Regens most of the damage, Politoed comes back in and it's suddenly raining again. Bring in Jirachi to sponge a Hurricane? Again, he bounces off you and brings in something else to deal with you. And once Tornadus-T has helped his teammates in wearing down your team, he can come back in and clean up what remains, and you'll be hard pressed to stop him.

But the problem is, if all tornadus is doing is u-turning the whole game, then it is worthless. While it is nice to think that it is just free momentum every turn, it simply doesn't occur in practice as giving up smashing that banded terrakion with hurricane with the hopes that he will switch to jirachi is not always the best decision, as now terrakion takes next to nothing and something is going to take massive damage.

It all comes down to prediction and playing and the issue with many of the pro-ban arguments is that they are assuming the tornadus player is top of the line, whereas the opposing side is just a predictable sot, which is a ridiculous thing to assume.

 

[Gehenna]

It all comes down to prediction and playing and the issue with many of the pro-ban arguments is that they are assuming the tornadus player is top of the line, whereas the opposing side is just a predictable sot, which is a ridiculous thing to assume.

It's not that hard to be a "top of the line" Tornadus-T user. You Hurricane all the things, and if something switches in you don't like (or has come to wall you) you U-turn out to something that can wear it down and not allow it to recover. You come back in to repeat until you've pressured their checks/counters enough to not be able to take 2 consecutive LO Hurricanes (not much can) then you clean up their team. Minimal prediction is required due to having one of the fastest U-turns in the game.

 

[Vemane]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPmVo5_d-g8

I understand the threat+causes switches+blah blah argument :P

I was referring to a case similar to what was mentioned: Tornadus is sitting in front of something very strong, it decides to u-turn (because momentum and suchz!) instead of koing with hurricane, and then something on the team takes a big hit.

U-turn should be seen as a way out, not a genesect-esque spam move

 

[ginganinja]

It all comes down to prediction and playing and the issue with many of the pro-ban arguments is that they are assuming the tornadus player is top of the line, whereas the opposing side is just a predictable sot, which is a ridiculous thing to assume.

I don't think thats quite like our point, but here it is roughly:

Tornadus-T directly affects the Risk vs Reward situation in a battle. This, in itself, is what makes Tornadus-t hard to deal with. For example, when Tornadus-T comes in for free, it can Hurricane for free, its safe, non threatening, risk free and its going to cripple a lot of things on your opponents team. However, Tornadus-T also has the option of U-Turning, if it suspects that you might go to Jirachi or suchlike. Either way, Tornadus-T has utter freedom to do whatever it wants, since either way, its getting out of the battle at full health thanks to Regenerator.

For the player opposing Tornadus-T, the senario is much harder, sure, they can predict the U-Turn and bring in a Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn or something, however it is a highier risk for them to take, since if they mispredict, Ferrothorn loses roughly half its health (or thereabouts) and Tornadus ends up netting a KO. Ergo, the safest choice is to bring in your Steel Resist, simply because the risk / reward is too great to do otherwise.

This is the situation that Tornadus-T brings to the metagame.

Now, I am not unaware that many other offensive pokemon can do this as well however TOrnadus-T is better than many of them, due to U-Turn (letting it scout the switch for free and the advantageous matchup) and Regenerator, which lets it do this time and time again, for free. Who cares if you bring in Chansey and take a Hurricane, ill taunt it, switch out, heal and continue doing my thing, who cares if you bring in Keldeo to force me out? I will simply switch out, Regan the health that I lose and switch in later for a KO. This is what is causing a number of skilled players to say "Hang on" as Tornadus-T effortlessly allows a skilled player to control the game, making it safer for them, with less need to predict while the pressure is all on the guy facing Tornadus, trying to figure out what its move is going to be.

This also might be why Lavos Spawn (reluctant as I am to put words into his mouth) was potentially a little disgruntled with the Weavile discussion, since the pressure is all on the Weavile player. You have had to sacrifice something to Tornadus-T to bring in Weavile, and the pressure is all on you, to win the 50/50 otherwise you have to sacrifice something else to Tornadus-T to bring in Weavile (assuming Tornadus-T didn't predict the Pursuit and stay in and Hurricane, in which case ur fucked).

You are correct it does require prediction, no-one is ignoring this, but the Risk vs Reward scenario is always in favour of the Tornadus-T player. Period.

I might have fucked up the pro ban argument, if I have I apologise, that was my interpretation of it. Please post setting everyone right right thanks if I misjudged it :)

 

[Tressed]

This thread is turning to shit so god damn fast, can we try to keep this civil?

Didn't know you were calcing Weavile with LO inclusive, you should mention that next time, because without Life Orb it has a 0% chance to OKO any of the four Pokemon I listed that I thought you had gotten wrong because of your failure to mention that crucial detail. I just want to keep things consistent.

I'm busy right now, so I'll get back to this later.

Weavile is an offensive Pokemon. The only good items for a Pokemon as frail but powerful as Weavile are Life Orb and Choice Band. We all know that you're not new to this and didn't know, so please stop pretending that you didn't understand.

Regardless, as Lord of Bays states, Weavile doesn't work as a good check because you have to work with prediction of what your opponent predicts you predict they will do. Waay to many head games.

Regarding RabidChipmunk's post...

I tried to make a point regarding this before, but no one responded to it (come on, guys, you make me feel bad). My point being, that saying Tornadus-T needs rain support isn't an entirely true statement. The relationship between Tornadus-T and Politoed is mutually symbiotic; Politoed gives Tornadus-T access to his most powerful STAB, and in return, Tornadus-T gives Politoed, and every other member of his team, easy access to momentum. Want to change Tornadus-T's weather to ruin his Hurricanes? You switch in Ninetales, BOOM, he U-turns off you, Regens most of the damage, Politoed comes back in and it's suddenly raining again. Bring in Jirachi to sponge a Hurricane? Again, he bounces off you and brings in something else to deal with you. And once Tornadus-T has helped his teammates in wearing down your team, he can come back in and clean up what remains, and you'll be hard pressed to stop him.

This, in my mind, is what makes Tornadus-T so dangerous, and in my humble opinion, broken. Yes, he requires support. But he's not parasitic about it -- he offers plenty of support to his teammates in return, mainly the ability to wear down members of his opponents team through Hurricanes and U-turns, and the ability to bring in any member of his team at almost any time.

Bang on, imo. Tornadus-T is a weather pokemon that is checked by other weather inducers, but it can easily help win the weather war by just hitting U-turn, and there is nothing the opponent can do about that. It outspeeds Jolly ScarfTar, for Pete's sake. No weather inducer can do anything to stop it, unless you want to try Scarf Ninetales out.

Want to know a sure-fire way to beat Tornadus-T? Kill every other single thing on the opposing team, then outspeed/tank a hit and KO him.

 

[Vemane]

I don't think thats quite like our point, but here it is roughly.

Tornadus-T directly affects the Risk vs Reward situation in a battle. This, in itself, is what makes Tornadus-t hard to deal with. For example, when Tornadus-T comes in for free, it can Hurricane for free, its safe, non threatening, risk free and its going to cripple a lot of things on your opponents team. However, Tornadus-T also has the option of U-Turning, if it suspects that you might go to Jirachi or suchlike. Either way, Tornadus-T has utter freedom to do whatever it wants, since either way, its getting out of the battle at full health thanks to Regenerator.

For the player opposing Tornadus-T, the senario is much harder, sure, they can predict the U-Turn and bring in a Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn or something, however it is a highier risk for them to take, since if they mispredict, Ferrothorn loses roughly half its health (or thereabouts) and Tornadus ends up netting a KO. Ergo, the safest choice is to bring in your Steel Resist, simply because the risk / reward is too great to do otherwise.

This is the situation that Tornadus-T brings to the metagame.

Now, I am not unaware that many other offensive pokemon can do this as well however TOrnadus-T is better than many of them, due to U-Turn (letting it scout the switch for free and the advantageous matchup) and Regenerator, which lets it do this time and time again, for free. Who cares if you bring in Chansey and take a Hurricane, ill taunt it, switch out, heal and continue doing my thing, who cares if you bring in Keldeo to force me out? I will simply switch out, Regan the health that I lose and switch in later for a KO. This is what is causing a number of skilled players to say "Hang on" as Tornadus-T effortlessly allows a skilled player to control the game, making it safer for them, with less need to predict while the pressure is all on the guy facing Tornadus, trying to figure out what its move is going to be.

This also might be why Lavos Spawn (reluctant as I am to put words into his mouth) was potentially a little disgruntled with the Weavile discussion, since the pressure is all on the Weavile player. You have had to sacrifice something to Tornadus-T to bring in Weavile, and the pressure is all on you, to win the 50/50 otherwise you have to sacrifice something else to Tornadus-T to bring in Weavile (assuming Tornadus-T didn't predict the Pursuit and stay in and Hurricane, in which case ur fucked).

You are correct it does require prediction, no-one is ignoring this, but the Risk vs Reward scenario is always in favour of the Tornadus-T player. Period.

I was not commentating on whether or not tornadus is broken with the prediction argument, as you are entirely correct in that it places huge pressure on the opposing player to pick the correct option. I was merely making an observation against the validity of some arguments being presented on the subject. Offensive pressure is something that I feel tornadus excels at, and it is difficult to deny. It's whether or not that makes him broken that is controversial.

In the weavile situation, I was assuming something had already died, and then he is your switch to revenge. If anything, the pressure is alleviated somewhat in that situation as the obvious choice is a shard/punch, making the pursuit a "safer" option that it would be otherwise. Weavile mainly functions as a nice tool in the current meta to check the various dragons/etc. with its ability to take on tornadus supplementary.

 

[ginganinja]

In the weavile situation, I was assuming something had already died, and then he is your switch to revenge. If anything, the pressure is alleviated somewhat in that situation as the obvious choice is a shard/punch, making the pursuit a "safer" option that it would be otherwise.

With respect, I 100% disagree.

Lets assume both of you have played very well, and it is 6-5 (Tornadus-T having just killed something) and you bring in Weavile. If anything, there is a massive amount of pressure on you, since you need to even up the score (and make no mistake, it IS still a 50/50 call against a player thats your equal in skill level). If you mispredict, you lose a second pokemon (either now or in the future when Tornadus-T gets in safely) making it 6-4 and you still need to try the weavile thing again. I agree that it is a Tornadus-T check, but still a risky one at the very least.

 

[Vemane]

With respect, I 100% disagree.

Lets assume both of you have played very well, and it is 6-5 (Tornadus-T having just killed something) and you bring in Weavile. If anything, there is a massive amount of pressure on you, since you need to even up the score. If you mispredict, you lose a second pokemon (either now or in the future when Tornadus-T gets in safely) making it 6-4 and you still need to try the weavile thing again. I agree that it is a Tornadus-T check, but still a risky one at the very least.

Point taken. My battling experience concerning tornadus has occurred solely on the ladder... known for being littered with battlers less than perfect at the game, thus leading to my perspective that tornadus' checks are not as risky as they may seem in a well-played scenario, because the fact of the matter is, he won't always be well played :P But what a good player can do with him is indeed scary, but I still do not believe that it defines him as broken, simply top-tier (namely due to the support required to sustain ideal conditions for him)

Actually, I've been awake for 19 hours straight and I'm getting a little tired so spare me your criticism, thanks. If he doesn't specify Weavile with Life Orb, how am I to assume that it's automatically Life Orb? If you're bad enough to be using Weavile in the first place I'm not going to make any hasty conclusions as to what your items could be. Eject Button Forretress and Ground Gem Dugtrio come to mind...

Pardon me for assuming a rather standard (and virtually only viable) item would be too difficult to infer. Though I still must question your logic considering choice band (the only other viable alternative) would produce even stronger results.

 

[Lavos]

Weavile is an offensive Pokemon. The only good items for a Pokemon as frail but powerful as Weavile are Life Orb and Choice Band. We all know that you're not new to this and didn't know, so please stop pretending that you didn't understand.

Actually, I've been awake for 19 hours straight and I'm getting a little tired so spare me your criticism, thanks. If he doesn't specify Weavile with Life Orb, how am I to assume that it's automatically Life Orb? If you're inexperienced enough to be using Weavile in the first place I'm not going to make any hasty conclusions as to what your items could be. Eject Button Forretress and Ground Gem Dugtrio come to mind...

 

[BdB4445]

I'd say a life orb / exp belt attacking Jolteon is a reliable offensive counter for Tornadus-T. It's one of the only things that outspeeds and can OHKO it. Considering Tornadus-T will most likely switch out, you can either use volt switch to gain momentum (If they don't have a ground type), HP Ice/Grass to nail Dugtrio (at 1 hp it would have to switch out or die), or Shadow Ball / Signal Beam on Gothitelle (although I don't imagine this switching in, let alone teaming with Tornadus).

I'm speaking in theory though, this might not work depending on the entry hazards out and/or Jolteon taking a superpower/U-turn instead upon prediction.

 

[ginganinja]

Jolteon is decent (Iv used it myself), but it can only switch in once, and doesn't fix the problem, since you are actually taking more damage from hazards, than it is which means it can quite easily outlast you. The fact that Tornadus-T basically recovers everything off just switching out makes dealing with it such a hassle.

 

[Lavos]

Jolteon is decent (Iv used it myself), but it can only switch in once, and doesn't fix the problem, since you are actually taking more damage from hazards, than it is which means it can quite easily outlast you. The fact that Tornadus-T basically recovers everything off just switching out makes dealing with it such a hassle.

Essentially this. The problem with all these random checks that are being thrown out there because they either outspeed Torn-T and OHKO it or threaten it with priority is that none of them can outlast Tornadus-T because of the brutal U-Turn + Regenerator combo that makes it so deadly. That's why the only real "counter" to the bird is Specially Defensive Jirachi, because Wish + Protect is at least a semi-reliable form of recovery. Rotom-W might qualify, but Rest + Chesto only works once, and Pain Split is iffy at best - the opponent can just switch in something that's low on health, and it won't do much at all. It could even end up helping the opponent if their HP is lower than yours at the time...and then of course Bronzong really doesn't have recovery, I guess a RestTalk Zong set might work but that's really pushing the boundary on what beats Torn-T and is still OU viable.

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm replying to a deleted post, but whatever. What the fuck Ojama?

I'm REALLY SORRY a large group of people disagree with your opinions on suspect. Your life must be so fucking hard. How do you find the will to get out of bed in the morning knowing people like Pocket think Tornadus-T is broken while you don't. Differing opinions exist, so someone must pay!!!
You hold THAT much value in your opinions being validated by total strangers online that you'd go to extreme lengths just to publicly admonish someone for being supposedly being wrong.

Goddamnit man.

I'm getting real tired of people calling each other out in this thread for their fucking opinion. People think what they think, deal with it like a fucking adult and move on your life. If person X thinks Suspect Y is broken, yes feel free to disagree with them but don't make your life's mission to publicly embarrass them.

 

[BdB4445]

Jolteon is decent (Iv used it myself), but it can only switch in once, and doesn't fix the problem, since you are actually taking more damage from hazards, than it is which means it can quite easily outlast you. The fact that Tornadus-T basically recovers everything off just switching out makes dealing with it such a hassle.

That's my mistake. I realized that Jolteon can take only one hit, but didn't think about Tornadus-T coming back. In the best case scenario, you'd get back momentum and spare yourself some turns before Tornadus-T comes back in, while getting a potentially good dent on somebody.

 

[alexwolf]

The only thing i have to say is that i am tired of hearing Lavos Spawn calling terrible everything he doesn't like or thinks is too niche because it is underused. First Zapdos, now Weavile, wtf man?

Zapdos is a viable and good mon, so if you want to have a better shot at dealing with Torn-T use it simple as that. You keep ignoring all the things it can do except from walling Torn-T and no other Pokemon in OU can. It walls Scizor, Venusaur, Breloom, Rain Volcarona, LO and NP Celebi (huge threat for many rain teams), most CM users (Latias, Jirachi, Reuniclus), has Roar, Volt Switch, and Heat Wave, in addition to Pressure and one turn healing with Roost. I just can't get what you find so awful about it. Is it the SR weakness? Because i can then remind you that you should use it with Rapid Spin support, and that that two out of the three best spinners in OU beat Ferrothorn, the premier hazard setter for rain teams, which almost always don't have a spinblocker too. So now that the SR problem is solved what's your other deal? Ferro walls Zapdos? Wrong. Zapdos can 3HKO Ferro in rain with Heat Wave, while the rapid spinner with which Zapdos will be partnered will make Ferrothorn's hazards useless, not to mention that Zapdos has Volt Switch to scout the Ferro switch-in. So tell me why is Zapdos so bad?

I am not even going to talk about Weavile since i know that a shitstorm will come. If you want use it in your offensive team and it can work if you play it to its strengths. It just adds to one of the many checks that offensive teams (all offensive teams, not just HO) can use to deal with Torn-T.

Btw which set is the one that the pro-ban Torn-T side argues that breaks Torn-T? It can't be Specs because it is walled easily by Jirachi, Chansey, Blissey, and Zapdos, and gets trapped by BandTar, all Pokemon easy to fit in balanced and defensive teams, and it can't abuse the so called perfect combo of ''risk free Hurricane + U-turn''. So it is LO with Taunt right? Just asking to see for which set we will argue about, as so far it seems that the best Torn-T set is Choice Specs + Life Orb with Hurricane + Superpower + Focus Blast + U-turn + Taunt + Sleep Talk...

EDIT: Yeah i forgot U-turn, it is now added.

 

[Vemane]

I don't understand this bit. First off (you were being sarcastic?) that's 5 moves. Second off, you acknowledge that we're debating on the U-turn/Hurricane combo, but that set doesn't even have U-turn...

He was being Completely sarcastic. He was just questioning the pro-ban side's argument that tornadus has the ability to break through everything with taunt or rain dance or etc.

The point is that while that may be true, he can't run all of them at once. He can get past one set of checks depending on the set, but the others will still give him trouble.

 

[Gehenna]

Um, okay, I wasn't nitpicking, that generally came off as very confusing. However, Taunt/Rain Dance really isn't an issue as the pivoting abilities are. Honestly if he didn't have U-turn or Regenerator he'd be 1/2 the threat he is, as either he wouldn't be untouchable (U-turn) or unbreakable (Hurricane).

 

[kd24]

actually i think the best set is clearly choice specs and people who feel their teams need a little extra insurance vs Bliss (or just don't feel comfortable hitting that Hurricane button when they know a "counter" is coming in) use Life Orb.

Really though, I think Specs Hurricane just shuts down entire playstyles and teams with minimal effort. The counter argument isn't really get us anywhere because you guys bring up it's counters, we bring up how to outlasts its counters and why having a fast u-turn/regenerator makes a huge difference, and this just goes in circles.

also its funny that cb dugtrio just takes a poop on ttar/jirachi/blissey post tornadus-t u-turn but you didnt really mention that in your post ;__; see i can play the "but this teammate combination can stop you" argument as well.

75 games on suspect and every single of one of them vs a well played tornadus-t is a fucking pain in the ass - it outlasts my counters because of hazards, prevents spinners from coming in due to specs hurricane 2hkoing all of them, and shuts down offensive teams with it's incredible speed (ok offensive scarf dragons stop it...oh wait its ferrothorn, again this what stop what arguments get us nowhere)

lets talk keldeo :d

 

[Vemane]

Um, okay, I wasn't nitpicking, that generally came off as very confusing. However, Taunt/Rain Dance really isn't an issue as the pivoting abilities are. Honestly if he didn't have U-turn or Regenerator he'd be 1/2 the threat he is, as either he wouldn't be untouchable (U-turn) or unbreakable (Hurricane).

If he didn't have regeneratir, people would just use tornadus i for the huge power buff :p

And that 4th slot (on lo) is generally filler, but that filler determines what threat you can now overcome ( possibly).

With rain dance, you can surprise a weather starter and maintain hurricane. With taunt, pokes like chansey and blissey can only s-toss (it is also a mice utility against deo-d, etc)

 

[Gehenna]

lets talk keldeo :d

Well, it really makes choosing a scarfer a lot easier... it's coverage of Water/Fight/HP is damn good, but I don't think it's overwhelming. It's just that the rain boosted Hydro Pumps hurt a lot to anything that doesn't have a resistence and a high Sp. Def. It's much more manageable than Tornadus due to the lower speed, no pivoting move, and the susceptibility to hazards. I think the main issue is the CM set which really has no counters, but is still checked by common mons such as Lati@s, Starmie, and Celebi.

 

[alexwolf]

actually i think the best set is clearly choice specs and people who feel their teams need a little extra insurance vs Bliss (or just don't feel comfortable hitting that Hurricane button when they know a "counter" is coming in) use Life Orb.

Really though, I think Specs Hurricane just shuts down entire playstyles and teams with minimal effort. The counter argument isn't really get us anywhere because you guys bring up it's counters, we bring up how to outlasts its counters and why having a fast u-turn/regenerator makes a huge difference, and this just goes in circles.

also its funny that cb dugtrio just takes a poop on ttar/jirachi/blissey post tornadus-t u-turn but you didnt really mention that in your post ;__; see i can play the "but this teammate combination can stop you" argument as well.

i just please ask we think of tornadus-t based on merits, and not ridiculous theorymon. 75 games on suspect and every single of one of them vs a well played tornadus-t is a fucking pain in the ass - it outlasts my counters because of hazards, prevents spinners from coming in due to specs hurricane 2hkoing all of them, and shuts down offensive teams with it's incredible speed (ok offensive dragons stop it...oh wait its ferrothorn, again this what stop what arguments get us nowhere)

lets talk keldeo :d

So let me get this straight... We are talking about Specs ok? So the Specs set can outlast its counters? How exactly? By spamming a pittifully weak U-turn? That's just hilarious! Chansey, Blissey, Jirachi, and Zapdos are all fully capable of outlasting Specs Torn-T (Zapdos even more so thx to Pressure) as they have reliable recovery and avoid a 3HKO from Hurricane (just in case of confuse hax which is a realistic possibility). Also why are we ignoring the fact that BandTar puts a halt to the Specs set easily, allowing it to get one kill at best? Kill something with Hurricane and you are dead, simple as that. And i never entered in any circle with my arguments. I know that Torn-T can outlast its checks, but its counters? Most of the times no, as they all are far more durable that Torn-T and wall him badly, so Torn-T needs team support to get past them.

You also say that Dugtrio takes a poop on Ttar. If Specs Torn-T kills something with Hurricane, then it dies from Ttar's Pursuit after, which means that Ttar effectively removed Torn-T. What will happen after is another matter. You may carry Dugtrio to win the weather war, and i might carry double sand for the same reason, but this won't change the fact that Torn-T will have been eliminated with one kill max. I also didn't mention Dugtrio as a Torn-T partner because i was defending Zapdos not Torn-T, and i am sure that everyone knows by now which are the best Torn-T partners, so what will be the point of me bringing it up for the 100th time?

Finally just in case you were reffering to me when talking about ridiculous theorymon i have to say that you should calm down. No you are not the only one playing actual battles, and you are not the only one with a good score on PS.

 

[Lavos]

The only thing i have to say is that i am tired of hearing Lavos Spawn calling terrible everything he doesn't like or thinks is too niche because it is underused. First Zapdos, now Weavile, wtf man?

take a quick look at what you just said. you're arguing with me...for slandering zapdos and weavile? damn, dude. i generally respect your opinions but this is pretty disappointing. look back to what i and numerous other users have said about zapdos, i really don't want to repeat myself. tl;dr, it's barely viable. crippling weaknesses to rocks, any ttar, almost anything faster than it, and god is it weak. the best it can really do is absorb a hit, roost, and run. if you want to make it not pathetic, you have to take away sdef or hp evs and dump them into satk, meaning now you're not living 2 rain boosted keldeo surfs anymore. it's a lose-lose situation. 4mss and eving it is a nightmare because either way something screws you. also gl running heat wave in rain, that's not doing more than 30% to sdef ferro lol.

don't get me started on weavile. you're good enough to know that thing has an extremely small niche in ou. maybe you can use it on a hyper offense team that desperately needs ice priority and pursuit access...maybe. otherwise it's fairly useless.

 

[kd24]

@alexwolf

cbttar is definitely not a great meta choice at the moment and neither is zapdos. the former just has problems with surviving against any rain team as politoed, ferrothorn, keldeo, dugtrio, etc all love seeing it. so it's an answer to specs tornadus-t and it loses to life orb tornadus-t...i guess congrats if they brought specs tornadus-t and made sure to use it early so ttar could revenge - you see, that's the thing you have to realize. tornadus-t can run 2 different items which can absolutely change what "counters" it. we can discuss why i like specs better but that doesn't change the fact that ttar no longer is a counter if it chooses to run life orb

Life Orb 54.866%
Choice Specs 36.532%

That is the item stats of tornadus-t last suspect test with genesect banned. so right away your argument falls apart because band ttar might counter the tornadus-t i use but it loses to the tornadus-t that half or even more of people are using, while bandtar is also weak to many common elements of rain teams

zapdos is a mon that just isn't very good in practice - can it stop tornadus-t? yes, but if it's taking stealth rock and we assume it is as we assume tornadus-t is, then it has to roost on the tornadus-t switch to keep it's survivability. if they go to ferro, that's either more hazards or leech seed. and i'm not sure when ferrothorn started having trouble with spinners. starmie and tentacruel both stink vs it as power whip does a ton of damage, so only forretress. but even then, they go to forretress and zapdos and that doesn't leave much room to threaten ferrothorn. you mention zapdos but do you really want to deal with the risk of a twave or leech seed?

 

[masterful]

Zapdos isn't as bad as you say kd. Ferrothorn in rain is typically the only thing used in Rain which actually beats it (and arguably the absolute best counter for it in this metagame). Apart from Ferro it's actually a really solid mon. The SubRoost set in particular hurts a lot of teams when the things it sets up on (notably Jirachi, Amoonguss, Celebi, Tornadus, generic Water types) are so common.

That said it definitely isn't versatile enough in its useability to be considered a reason to keep Tornadus-T in the metagame.

I'll be honest, Zapdos is pretty damn bad in this meta. It doesn't do much at all other than check Tornadus-T, and the fact that it's being brought up is an example of the lengths people have to go to contend with something so risk-free to use as Tornadus. Rachi is the only dependable counter, and only if it has Wish+Protect. Bronzong is Bronzong (no recovery, will always get worn down), Rotom-W's best recovery options are Resto Chesto and Pain Split, which are both pretty bad, and very little else can switch in on a Specs or even LO Hurricane when Stealth Rock is up, god forbid one or two layers of Spikes be up as well.

The Weavile example is great to demonstrate the kind of play Tornadus-T creates. The Tornadus player clicks Hurricane and kills something, Weavile comes in, and immediately the Weavile player is in the hot seat. Pursuit when Tornadus Hurricanes, and you have a dead Weavile and an unchecked Tornadus. Ice Punch when Tornadus-T switches, and you have a Weavile out against something that can easily set up on it or kill it. You have to sacrifice a poke just to put yourself in that 50/50, which is far from what one might normally say a "check" can do.