Made reqs tonight, so I feel like now would be a good time to share my opinion. I've never been one for long, detailed posts (let alone being well-understood when I make them), but here I go.
Keldeo is a Water Pony. Keldeo is the second cutest Pokemon. And Keldeo is not broken. Since it appears that this view is almost universally shared, I'll be brief. First of all, Celebi's usage this month has shot up to like 45% lol. Yeah, I know it's not that high, but it seems like Celebi is everywhere. I'm guessing that Amoonguss, Lati@s, etc. have been listed at LEAST once per page of this thread. CM Keldeo sets are pretty obviously not even close to why it's being Suspected, so I'll ignore them. Keldeo's Choice sets are the very definition of only being able to do one job at a time. Scarf Pony is damn annoying to face, but it really mostly troubles offensive teams, which lack any of its solid counters (because you do have to admit, Lati@s is really Keldeo's only offensive counter). And Specs Pony can break through Jellicent/Tentacruel and co. given a few turns, but then it's basically just a variation on Band Terrakion. I know it's an obvious argument, but Water Pony can't perform multiple tasks with any given set (for example, Excadrill could Spin and sweep, two jobs on one set). Some Ubers, such as Darkrai, could only do one thing per set (sleep something and sweep), but it was so damn good at that one job that it didn't matter if it was one job or twenty... it was getting done. I don't think either of those two situations describe Keldeo. Keldeo simply does not measure up to any previous Ubers, and shouldn't be banned.
Now onto Tornadus-T. Before I begin, I would ask everyone to go back and read Cherub's post again. It is the most well-written argument for keeping Tornadus that I've seen in this entire thread, and it beats the hell out of what I'm about to post.
Okay... the bird. I don't know where to start, but I guess I'll start with my opinion. Do not ban. I've seen a lot of arguments for banning Tornadus that all revolve around the performance of Tornadus-T's counters. But I disagree with those arguments, for a reason which Jabba stated earlier in the thread (about banning Keldeo): Tornadus plays differently in practice than it does on paper. And frankly, most of the debate about Torn-T's counters has appeared to be on paper. I'd like to draw a comparison between two VERY unlikely Pokemon: Tornadus-T and Dugtrio.
I know, right? But hear me out. When you see a team with Dugtrio, you're forced to play differently. Do you really want your Tyranitar to Pursuit that Latios? It could let Dugtrio come in and win the weather war. Are you sure that your Heatran should switch in to counter Dragonite? The dead Dragonite might turn into a Dugtrio, which opens you up to the opponent's Venusaur. Dugtrio forces you to play the game very conservatively, and that gives your opponent more opportunities to get his strategy going, to beat you. But we all know that although Dugtrio has such a powerful influence on how the game is played, Dugtrio itself is not a powerful Pokemon. That's exactly how I think of Tornadus-T.
The thing is, much like Dugtrio, Tornadus can't switch into almost anything. I recently saw this quote regarding Torn-T's bulk:
Here is a conservative Volcarona, a Timid one with Leftovers: +1 Bug Buzz deals 41.1%-48.8%. A 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Here is a more aggressive Volcarona, a Modest one with Life Orb: +1 Fire Blast in rain deals 78.6%-92.6%. An OHKO after Stealth Rock.
Now, what does this tell us. Well, first we need to ask ourselves where the Volcarona got a Quiver Dance from, because if you're observant, you noticed it has one. Well, it probably got a Quiver Dance off of the Ferrothorn that everyone seems to agree makes an excellent partner for Tornadus. I'm not trying to provide a battle-scenario here, just to avoid people jumping down my throat about the calc.
NOW, the first calc tells me that Tornadus-T is 2HKOed by a resisted attack at +1. Resisted. Again, I don't want to provide a battle-scenario here, but Tornadus-T clearly can't switch into even a resisted hit after the Quiver Dance. What about the second calc? It OHKOes Tornadus after Stealth Rock. So even though Tornadus could theoretically check the first one, it is cleanly swept by the second, again a resisted hit. I'm worried that people will think I'm trying to stack the odds against Torn-T here, but I don't think my calcs were unlikely at all. I'll move on though.
Back to my Dugtrio comparison. Dugtrio puts on immense pressure, basically forcing you not to play a certain way, or suffer the consequences, but it can't switch in. Tornadus-T is the same way (I just showed about bulk). Tornadus-T doesn't want to switch into my Ferrothorn and eat a Gyro Ball or a Thunder Wave. It doesn't want to switch into my Chansey and lose a third of its health to Seismic Toss, or get paralyzed. It sure as hell doesn't want to take a Scald from Politoed as it switches in. I just listed three common members of rain stall teams. STALL teams. I think it's widely agreed that Tornadus's best job is as a wallbreaker. All of the Pokemon I just listed can't switch into Tornadus-T. But Tornadus can't switch into them. So again, how is it coming in? It can come in after a kill. But by the time a Stall team typically nets a kill, it's already gotten into its groove, and a wallbreaker wouldn't be of much use by that point anyways.
So how is Tornadus doing its job of being a wallbreaker? With prediction. Yes, that's right. Tornadus can easily get in and start tearing shit apart with a little prediction. But prediction goes both ways, and unfortunately is never a reason to ban something. Once Tornadus-T is in, what does it do? Destroy teams. I agree. But the thing is, he can't OHKO very many bulky things. For example, bulky Landorus-T is a common Sand teammate. LO Tornadus fails to OHKO him after Stealth Rock, doing 74%-87.3%. The same Landorus does 79.6%-94.3% with Stone Edge, an easy KO after Stealth Rock. Now, this is a hypothetical situation of course. But I DO have a point in my drawn-out rabble about defensive Pokemon. Tornadus-T appears to be a wallbreaker that can't effectively wallbreak. It needs prior damage to kill most walls, unless it can hit them super effectively (but few walls are weak to Flying STAB). As a sweeper, however, Tornadus-T does a much better job. I'd like to dispel one myth real quick:
But other than that, I agree that Tornadus is a monstrous sweeper (not wallbreaker). Give him some prior damage on the other team, and he'll handle the rest. And THIS is where Tornadus really connects to Dugtrio. I've been talking about how he can't switch in, and he's not necessarily too powerful, which is similar to Dugtrio. But here is where Tornadus is really similar. You DON'T want to give Tornadus a chance to switch in under favorable conditions, or else you will probably get swept right then and there. You DON'T want to let Dugtrio come in against your Heatran or Tyranitar or whatever, or else you will lose the Pokemon, and probably subsequently lose the battle. Both Pokemon force you to play very awkwardly, very cautiously, and that's where your opponent gets so many opportunities to go for the win. You can't play around Tornadus like you would most other Pokemon for this reason.
Also Scarf Pokemon, priority, Jirachi, blah blah blah. I barely even said these, because they're actually a terrible argument against wallbreaking Tornadus. But since I don't look very highly upon Tornadus in that role anyway (as evident above), I figured I might as well include these anyway.
So now let's take this opportunity to review Tornadus-T as a whole. If you ask me, he's a mediocre wallbreaker, and his best niche is sweeping. But I think he's a hell of a sweeper. Like Keldeo, I think that none of his sets can effectively do multiple jobs. So the real question is, does he do the one job well enough? I'd say no. Just like how Dugtrio doesn't always guarantee a dead Heatran or Tyranitar or whatever, Torn-T doesn't always guarantee a sweep. And this is where my opinion stops cloaking itself in facts. I am blatantly stating that I don't THINK Tornadus-T is good enough at what it does to be banned. It's obvious that a lot of people disagree with me, but a lot of people agree with me too. This post has been long and it digresses fairly often, but I just hope that the actual points are clear enough for everyone to pick out of it.
Keldeo is a Water Pony. Keldeo is the second cutest Pokemon. And Keldeo is not broken. Since it appears that this view is almost universally shared, I'll be brief. First of all, Celebi's usage this month has shot up to like 45% lol. Yeah, I know it's not that high, but it seems like Celebi is everywhere. I'm guessing that Amoonguss, Lati@s, etc. have been listed at LEAST once per page of this thread. CM Keldeo sets are pretty obviously not even close to why it's being Suspected, so I'll ignore them. Keldeo's Choice sets are the very definition of only being able to do one job at a time. Scarf Pony is damn annoying to face, but it really mostly troubles offensive teams, which lack any of its solid counters (because you do have to admit, Lati@s is really Keldeo's only offensive counter). And Specs Pony can break through Jellicent/Tentacruel and co. given a few turns, but then it's basically just a variation on Band Terrakion. I know it's an obvious argument, but Water Pony can't perform multiple tasks with any given set (for example, Excadrill could Spin and sweep, two jobs on one set). Some Ubers, such as Darkrai, could only do one thing per set (sleep something and sweep), but it was so damn good at that one job that it didn't matter if it was one job or twenty... it was getting done. I don't think either of those two situations describe Keldeo. Keldeo simply does not measure up to any previous Ubers, and shouldn't be banned.
Now onto Tornadus-T. Before I begin, I would ask everyone to go back and read Cherub's post again. It is the most well-written argument for keeping Tornadus that I've seen in this entire thread, and it beats the hell out of what I'm about to post.
Okay... the bird. I don't know where to start, but I guess I'll start with my opinion. Do not ban. I've seen a lot of arguments for banning Tornadus that all revolve around the performance of Tornadus-T's counters. But I disagree with those arguments, for a reason which Jabba stated earlier in the thread (about banning Keldeo): Tornadus plays differently in practice than it does on paper. And frankly, most of the debate about Torn-T's counters has appeared to be on paper. I'd like to draw a comparison between two VERY unlikely Pokemon: Tornadus-T and Dugtrio.
I know, right? But hear me out. When you see a team with Dugtrio, you're forced to play differently. Do you really want your Tyranitar to Pursuit that Latios? It could let Dugtrio come in and win the weather war. Are you sure that your Heatran should switch in to counter Dragonite? The dead Dragonite might turn into a Dugtrio, which opens you up to the opponent's Venusaur. Dugtrio forces you to play the game very conservatively, and that gives your opponent more opportunities to get his strategy going, to beat you. But we all know that although Dugtrio has such a powerful influence on how the game is played, Dugtrio itself is not a powerful Pokemon. That's exactly how I think of Tornadus-T.
The thing is, much like Dugtrio, Tornadus can't switch into almost anything. I recently saw this quote regarding Torn-T's bulk:
That terrified me. I respect you both as a battler and a user ginga, but I can't believe you said that. Allow me to post some calcs. Under rain, Tornadus effectively resists both of Volcarona's STABs, so I'll use Volc. All calcs will assume Stealth Rock is down (and don't tell me that Regenerator negates Stealth Rock. Torn-T is still not coming in with more than 75% of its health each time).
Here is a conservative Volcarona, a Timid one with Leftovers: +1 Bug Buzz deals 41.1%-48.8%. A 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Here is a more aggressive Volcarona, a Modest one with Life Orb: +1 Fire Blast in rain deals 78.6%-92.6%. An OHKO after Stealth Rock.
Now, what does this tell us. Well, first we need to ask ourselves where the Volcarona got a Quiver Dance from, because if you're observant, you noticed it has one. Well, it probably got a Quiver Dance off of the Ferrothorn that everyone seems to agree makes an excellent partner for Tornadus. I'm not trying to provide a battle-scenario here, just to avoid people jumping down my throat about the calc.
NOW, the first calc tells me that Tornadus-T is 2HKOed by a resisted attack at +1. Resisted. Again, I don't want to provide a battle-scenario here, but Tornadus-T clearly can't switch into even a resisted hit after the Quiver Dance. What about the second calc? It OHKOes Tornadus after Stealth Rock. So even though Tornadus could theoretically check the first one, it is cleanly swept by the second, again a resisted hit. I'm worried that people will think I'm trying to stack the odds against Torn-T here, but I don't think my calcs were unlikely at all. I'll move on though.
Back to my Dugtrio comparison. Dugtrio puts on immense pressure, basically forcing you not to play a certain way, or suffer the consequences, but it can't switch in. Tornadus-T is the same way (I just showed about bulk). Tornadus-T doesn't want to switch into my Ferrothorn and eat a Gyro Ball or a Thunder Wave. It doesn't want to switch into my Chansey and lose a third of its health to Seismic Toss, or get paralyzed. It sure as hell doesn't want to take a Scald from Politoed as it switches in. I just listed three common members of rain stall teams. STALL teams. I think it's widely agreed that Tornadus's best job is as a wallbreaker. All of the Pokemon I just listed can't switch into Tornadus-T. But Tornadus can't switch into them. So again, how is it coming in? It can come in after a kill. But by the time a Stall team typically nets a kill, it's already gotten into its groove, and a wallbreaker wouldn't be of much use by that point anyways.
So how is Tornadus doing its job of being a wallbreaker? With prediction. Yes, that's right. Tornadus can easily get in and start tearing shit apart with a little prediction. But prediction goes both ways, and unfortunately is never a reason to ban something. Once Tornadus-T is in, what does it do? Destroy teams. I agree. But the thing is, he can't OHKO very many bulky things. For example, bulky Landorus-T is a common Sand teammate. LO Tornadus fails to OHKO him after Stealth Rock, doing 74%-87.3%. The same Landorus does 79.6%-94.3% with Stone Edge, an easy KO after Stealth Rock. Now, this is a hypothetical situation of course. But I DO have a point in my drawn-out rabble about defensive Pokemon. Tornadus-T appears to be a wallbreaker that can't effectively wallbreak. It needs prior damage to kill most walls, unless it can hit them super effectively (but few walls are weak to Flying STAB). As a sweeper, however, Tornadus-T does a much better job. I'd like to dispel one myth real quick:
On the contrary, both players are equally pressured, I would say. The Weavile (or any revenge killer) player needs to even the score. But Tornadus is almost certainly THE most dangerous Pokemon its player has. Mispredicting and losing Tornadus would be a tragedy for him, as he would lose what is probably his best chance at winning. It's a 50/50 for BOTH players.
But other than that, I agree that Tornadus is a monstrous sweeper (not wallbreaker). Give him some prior damage on the other team, and he'll handle the rest. And THIS is where Tornadus really connects to Dugtrio. I've been talking about how he can't switch in, and he's not necessarily too powerful, which is similar to Dugtrio. But here is where Tornadus is really similar. You DON'T want to give Tornadus a chance to switch in under favorable conditions, or else you will probably get swept right then and there. You DON'T want to let Dugtrio come in against your Heatran or Tyranitar or whatever, or else you will lose the Pokemon, and probably subsequently lose the battle. Both Pokemon force you to play very awkwardly, very cautiously, and that's where your opponent gets so many opportunities to go for the win. You can't play around Tornadus like you would most other Pokemon for this reason.
Also Scarf Pokemon, priority, Jirachi, blah blah blah. I barely even said these, because they're actually a terrible argument against wallbreaking Tornadus. But since I don't look very highly upon Tornadus in that role anyway (as evident above), I figured I might as well include these anyway.
So now let's take this opportunity to review Tornadus-T as a whole. If you ask me, he's a mediocre wallbreaker, and his best niche is sweeping. But I think he's a hell of a sweeper. Like Keldeo, I think that none of his sets can effectively do multiple jobs. So the real question is, does he do the one job well enough? I'd say no. Just like how Dugtrio doesn't always guarantee a dead Heatran or Tyranitar or whatever, Torn-T doesn't always guarantee a sweep. And this is where my opinion stops cloaking itself in facts. I am blatantly stating that I don't THINK Tornadus-T is good enough at what it does to be banned. It's obvious that a lot of people disagree with me, but a lot of people agree with me too. This post has been long and it digresses fairly often, but I just hope that the actual points are clear enough for everyone to pick out of it.
Keldeo is cute. fuck tornadus, but keep it in ou
