np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane

[alexwolf]

There is no doubt that Torn-T limits stall's viability, as the LO set is a nightmare to deal with if you don't have two specific Pokemon in your team. Other than that you can trap and kill it with either Scarf Gothitelle or CB Weavile, but this means that you must first sac something in order to bring them in safely, which is something stall teams usually can't afford.

So the only reason that i would vote to ban Torn-T for, would be to make stall more viable and nothing more, as i believe that offensive and balanced teams can deal with Torn-T just fine.

EDIT: Oh and please people, refrain from mentioning the usage stats when trying to prove if something is broken or not. The stats used to have some relevance to the metagame but not anymore. What is good is not always used a lot and what is used a lot is not always good. This phrase used to be the exception to the rule (the rule being that something popular is usually good and deserves its usage) but not anymore, where so many good Pokemon such as Latias, Landorus, Lando-T, Celebi, Hippo, and Torn-T have so little usage (little compared to what they should have). There are simply too many sub-par players influencing the usage stats, meaning that the words popular and good were never this far away...

 

[gamerno1]

Haven't posted here in a couple pages, but this prompted me to step in. You're seriously trying to claim that pre-Torn-T stall teams all had SDef Jirachi on them? That's flat-out wrong. Look at one of the best and most used stall teams of BW1, M Dragon's rain stall. Not a Jirachi in sight there, and that's because, unlike Tornadus-T, Tornadus-I and other premier BW1 special attacks were all checked extremely well by a combination of Chansey and entry hazards damage. Need more proof? Check out undisputed's rain stall, another take on stall in the BW1 era. It has a Jirachi, yes, but it's SubCM, solely used for late-game cleaning once its checks have been weakened. undisputed still packs a Blissey for special attackers, too. This ought to be enough for you to accept that your claims are absurd, but I can list more great pre-Torn-T stall teams without SDef Rachi if you need me to (Stunt's Sun Stall and Lady Bug's revamped Hail Stall come to mind). The only reason we've seen a rise in the usage of SDef Rachi, Bronzong, and even Zapdos on stall or semi-stall teams is because without one of these three Pokemon on your stall team, it's going to be picked to pieces by a Life Orb set from Torn-T (and if you use one of the latter two, you might still lose anyway).

And briefly on the issue of Torn-T being #21 in usage stats, while Keldeo barely even makes the top 50, you guys have to remember that these statistics are not an accurate representation of the ladder. Most people who play the OU ladder on Showdown simply aren't the kind of quality players that represent our competitive metagame. If you want a roughly accurate representation of real competitive usage stats, I suggest you take a look at the November Suspect Ladder's rankings, where Keldeo weighs in at #4, and Torn-T hovers around #10. Regardless, usage stats should not be an argument for or against either suspect. I'm just stating the facts.

I didn't claim that they all had jirachi, just that it was extremely common, with virtually all having either it or a blobs (or both). It can also be said that skarmory and gliscor are stall staples (as physical walls), that doesn't mean there aren't alternatives (hippowdon for example).

Also your claim that the only reason for SpD jirachi's rise in usage is torn-t is ridiculous. There are many factors for the rise one of the main ones being the much more aggressive metagame where it offensive presence is favored over the blobs bulk. It is also a better check against other dangerous new threats such as keldeo. It's also not obliterated by the powerful fighting types of the tier (to the same degree at least).

Your comments on the rise of bronzong are even more ludicrous, bronzong is rarely used on stall teams thanks to it lack of recovery (it is used mostly by balance/bulky offense in my experience), and it owes far more of it usage to garchomp than torn-t.

Finally I would like to point out that my reference to the usage statistics was meant not to comment on it's effectiveness, but rather how centralizing it is. To me centralizing would mean that everybody is using it and everybody is carrying a counter to it. This is quite clearly not the case, and had you read my post you would've see me quite clearly saying I wasn't making an argument that it was/wasn't broken, but rather that it isn't over-centralizing.

 

[Shurtugal]

I meant that they spiked in usage because of Tornadus-T. I didn't deny that they were common already, just that (Jirachi is #6) because of Tornadus-T. It went from "common" to "everywhere". imo thats a big difference. That's like saying (using Exca meta as refference):

You: "Excadrill isn't broken because every team (even stall) has an Gliscor!"

Me: "Maybe Gliscor spiked in usage because of Excadrill? Thus proving overcentralization."

You: "Shaw, Gliscor was common anyway before Excadrill!"

Take a look at the metagame. Is Gliscor nearly as common as it was in the Excadril era? No, no it is not. Every team used to carry one, but they don't now. Also, guess what? Gliscor was #6 in usage during the Exca era. See a pattern? My point was that (even though they were already common) that they became more spiked in usage because of the overcenteralization of the threat (in our case: Tornadus-T has made Wash and Rachi spike in usage and it made Zapdos viable).

tl;tr: Tornadus-T is banned and is overcentralizing the metagame. IT MADE ZAPDOS VIABLE FOR FUCKS SAKE! We're discussing how Zapdos is now a viable means in the metagame because if can counter Torn-T. This is the same as if Excadrill made Golurk viable in OU because of its mere existance. Please ban Torn-T imo.

 

[MMII]

I remember seeing a post by Jrrrrrrr (was that 7? Yep, I counted them right) hanging around in somebody's sig a long time ago that talked about "overcentralization". I did some looking around and found that post. Personally, I feel there are a lot of legitimate reasons to ban Tornadus-T but "overcentralization" isn't one of them. (look at Scizor since DDP)

 

[gamerno1]

I meant that they spiked in usage because of Tornadus-T. I didn't deny that they were common already, just that (Jirachi is #6) because of Tornadus-T. It went from "common" to "everywhere". imo thats a big difference. That's like saying (using Exca meta as refference):

You: "Excadrill isn't broken because every team (even stall) has an Gliscor!"

Me: "Maybe Gliscor spiked in usage because of Excadrill? Thus proving overcentralization."

You: "Shaw, Gliscor was common anyway before Excadrill!"

Take a look at the metagame. Is Gliscor nearly as common as it was in the Excadril era? No, no it is not. Every team used to carry one, but they don't now. Also, guess what? Gliscor was #6 in usage during the Exca era. See a pattern? My point was that (even though they were already common) that they became more spiked in usage because of the overcenteralization of the threat (in our case: Tornadus-T has made Wash and Rachi spike in usage and it made Zapdos viable).

tl;tr: Tornadus-T is banned and is overcentralizing the metagame. IT MADE ZAPDOS VIABLE FOR FUCKS SAKE! We're discussing how Zapdos is now a viable means in the metagame because if can counter Torn-T. This is the same as if Excadrill made Golurk viable in OU because of its mere existance. Please ban Torn-T imo.

It may have made it spike to a point (like what happens EVERY time a new threat is introduced) but by how much? Jirachi has been top 10 for as long as I can remember (admittedly not very long). Rising by 2 or 3 places is a bad argument for over-centralization, especially when there are other contributors to its rise (as I listed above).

Still if someone can be bothered posting a link I would be interested in looking at the pre-torn-t statistics and those just after it release.

 

[Gehenna]

I remember seeing a post by Jrrrrrrr (was that 7? Yep, I counted them right) hanging around in somebody's sig a long time ago that talked about "overcentralization". I did some looking around and found that post. Personally, I feel there are a lot of legitimate reasons to ban Tornadus-T but "overcentralization" isn't one of them. (look at Scizor since DDP)

"Overcentralization" is the biggest joke of an argument I've ever heard. Something is popular, therefore it must be too good? If you apply that logic every round, you will end up banning literally everything. Overcentralization isn't even a word. Stop using it like popularity decides what is good.

Something doesn't have to be very popular to be centralilzing. For example, one could argue Deoxys-D is centralizing though it's usage would make one think otherwise. I really don't know what to think of the usage stats anymore, but they sure as hell can't be used to determine what's good or not, when shit like Latias is bottom OU (seriously, the sub CM is broke as hell).

 

[Vemane]

I meant that they spiked in usage because of Tornadus-T. I didn't deny that they were common already, just that (Jirachi is #6) because of Tornadus-T. It went from "common" to "everywhere". imo thats a big difference. That's like saying (using Exca meta as refference):

You: "Excadrill isn't broken because every team (even stall) has an Gliscor!"

Me: "Maybe Gliscor spiked in usage because of Excadrill? Thus proving overcentralization."

You: "Shaw, Gliscor was common anyway before Excadrill!"

Take a look at the metagame. Is Gliscor nearly as common as it was in the Excadril era? No, no it is not. Every team used to carry one, but they don't now. Also, guess what? Gliscor was #6 in usage during the Exca era. See a pattern? My point was that (even though they were already common) that they became more spiked in usage because of the overcenteralization of the threat (in our case: Tornadus-T has made Wash and Rachi spike in usage and it made Zapdos viable).

tl;tr: Tornadus-T is banned and is overcentralizing the metagame. IT MADE ZAPDOS VIABLE FOR FUCKS SAKE! We're discussing how Zapdos is now a viable means in the metagame because if can counter Torn-T. This is the same as if Excadrill made Golurk viable in OU because of its mere existance. Please ban Torn-T imo.

I find that this is an awful comparison for multiple reason.

1. Excadrill's need for a more centralized metagame (to beat it) greatly outmatched that of Tornadus. For excadrill, if you were not running gliscor or skarm or one of its other counters, then it would literally run through your team as it often found its checks and counters being one in the same. Tornadus on the other hand does not require this same centralization to beat it. Jirachi being used a little bit more (and I do mean a little bit) is hardly a sign of "too centered around tornadus," especially considering jirachi's many useful roles. Furthermore, simply checking tornadus is enough in many cases, where the same did not prove true at all with excadrill. Almost any scarfer can force out tornadus, excadrill outsped virtually every scarfer, making its counters AND checks few and far between.

2. It is misleading to equate gliscor's plummet to excadrill's leaving. Yes, it was one of the best checks/counters to the mole, but saying it was only because of excadrill is quite incorrect (and even if it was, that is why excadrill is now BANNED). In this metagame where special attackers and water and ice moves are abounding, gliscor would be hard pressed to do much walling. It simply does not fit in as well at the moment to the current rain-dominated metagame, and ignoring that factor when discussing use is very ignorant. If tornadus was banned would jirachi use decline? Maybe. And if it did it would be slight considering its many useful traits that had defined it as a top 10/20 poke for the last ever.

3. "It made zapdos viable" is a, quite simply, stupid argument. Zapdos was never an unviable pokemon, it was placed in fucking b-rank in the viability thread for pete's sake! The issue with zapdos was that it was often outclassed by other pokes, not that it was completely fucking useless as everyone is arguing it to be. Now that tornadus is a threat, it now has a niche, one that PREVENTS it from being outclassed and, thus, more viable. Using it as an argument for tornadus's ban is ridiculously stupid, ESPECIALLY when zapdos still sits on the bottom of the usage statistics. The only spotlight it has been given is a bit of discussion, most of which was centered around how "bad" it is. So not only is it an irrelevant argument, but it has no statistics to even support it (I can assure you that the only zapdos I had seen on the ladder was my own).

 

[Shurtugal]

@gamerno1

Here are the usage stats:

April 2011: here
June 2011: here
July 2011: can't find it, but it probably looks like June's tbh
August 2011: here
September 2011: here

October is the month I believe it got banned, or at least had its suspect tests so Oct and over should be useless to you. As you can see, Gliscor is near the top 8 every time, and at one point is #5.

@Melee Mewtwo:

There should be a seperate thread for discussing overcentralization imo, and I really don't want to get off topic. I also worded my reasons wrong, sorry. Overcentralization is just one reason I feel it needs to be banned (we'll have to agree to disagree about whether "overcentralization" is a legitimate reason. I feel that anything that effects the metagame as strongly as Torn-T, or more, (like Exca demanding Gliscor's usage) is a legitimate reason for its ban): my other reasons are simply that it can get around its counters easy with Reg. and it lacks the need to set up to start applying offensive pressure (my main reasons).

Anyway, my point stands: Jirachi and Rotom-W have had huge spiking and it's because of Tornadus-T. So saying that every stall team has these two Pokemon and that Torn-T isn't broken because of that is ludicrous. It's because of Tornadus-T in the first place that they spiked and Tornadus-T has an easy time getting around its counters and checks anyway (as previously discussed by the community).

EDIT:

Vemane,

I never said that's the only reason why Gliscor plummeted, but take a look at the statistics. Obviously, Excadrill was a huge reason for its usage and it IS a huge reason why Gliscor lowered as much as it did. I don't see it sitting at #5 anymore like it did back in April 2011.

The viability thread was created when Torn-T was roaming the metagame so that point is moot. Also, you said yourself: Zapdos was outclased by other Pokemon [until Tornadus-T]. The other part of your post about Torn-T making it have a good niche proves my point tbh.

Please read this.

 

[Vemane]

@gamerno1
Vemane,

I never said that's the only reason why Gliscor plummeted, but take a look at the statistics. Obviously, Excadrill was a huge reason for its usage and it IS a huge reason why Gliscor lowered as much as it did. I don't see it sitting at #5 anymore like it did back in April 2011.

"and even if it was, that is why excadrill is now BANNED." Post excadrill, gliscor went down about 4%. It is now 8% lower than during excadrill time. It was a huge reason, and that is why I argued that it was a reason for excadrill's ban; that the meta was so incredibly reliant on its counters.

With tornadus, that is not really the case. The only one that has really gone up in usage iirc is jirachi, and it wasn't by all that significant of an amount.

The reason for this is that tornadus can be checked by scarfers, semi-bulky pokemon, most priority, etc.

Excadrill couldn't.

The viability thread was created when Torn-T was roaming the metagame so that point is moot. Also, you said yourself: Zapdos was outclased by other Pokemon.

Please read this.

But tornadus-t most certainly wasn't the dominating force that it is today. And yes, Zapdos WAS outclassed by other pokemon, and it still is. But that doesn't mean it wasn't VIABLE, simply outclassed in many regards. Now it has a NICHE that makes it worth using to some extent, that certainly doesn't equate to "IT MAKING FUCKING ZAPDOS VIABLE BANBANBAN!!!"

Look at gastrodon. It was nu for a hell of a long time, then suddenly it shot up to solid ou. Is it outclassed as a wall? Yes, from both spectrums. What gave it usage is that it filled a niche in checking many components of rain.

In any case, the point was that your comparison to excadrill (and using that comparison to fuel your entire argument) is false.

 

[Shurtugal]

Tornadus-T gave Zapdos a niche that only Jirachi can share in the metagame right now:

It can take everything Tornadus-T can throw at it and not care. They both get recovery, but Wish requires you add protect and wastes coverage unlike Zappy. Since these are the only two Pokemon that can do this job so well obviously Tornadus-T has made Zapdos about 100% more viable than before.

Zappy had a nice niche, but NO WHERE NEAR like it has now like your trying to imply. Your statement about Gastrodon proves my point, Zapdos is only as good as it is now because of Tornadus-T and without it Zapdos would plummet more than Gliscor did, and it has low usage even now tbh (and its only going down further once Torn-T is banned js).

A lot of things are viable, but they're just outclassed by other Pokemon. As Obi points out,

You make an awesome team that includes a surprising moveset on a Pokemon, and this surprise is basically that your Pokemon is a weaker version of another Pokemon, but you figure it's worth the loss in power because it can buy you a turn or two, and turns have value, too.

Basically, Zapdos is a weaker form of many other Pokemon in OU. It is viable, but certainly not better than these OU threats and there should be almost no reason to use it over the plethora of Pokemon that do its job better in OU. However, Tornadus-T has given it a niche that only one other Pokemon does better, thus making it "viable".


EDIT:

Also, like I said earlier. Protect cockblocks all priority users and choice scarfers an Tornadus-T with LO uses it plenty well. Semi-Bulky Pokemon are stopped and restricted from recovery by the likes of Taunt. I brought up protect before as a means of getting past offensive checks but w/e.

 

[CTC]

With tornadus, that is not really the case. The only one that has really gone up in usage iirc is jirachi, and it wasn't by all that significant of an amount.

The reason for this is that tornadus can be checked by scarfers, semi-bulky pokemon, most priority, etc.

Excadrill couldn't.

Okkkk...... One pokemon that is almost ubiquitous on almost every balanced team is rotom W, and what is its most common set?? spdef. was spdef jirachi ever this popular before tornT? You're saying scarfers and priority can check torn, yes that's true, but do you remember a time when conk and azu actually got played just because of excadrill? didnt help much did it? Name a HANDFUL of mons that switch into torn t and are viable in the ou metagame. ummmmmm wash, jira, dos, zong, annnd thats about it. And the best part is, Hurricain has a 15% chance to muscle past ANY COUNTER mid-late game, isn't that fantastic? You say that priority and scarfers check it, well please name 1 priority user/ scarfer that actually switches in. Lemme guess.... RACHI! That just proves how tornT centralizes the metagame to the point where every team needs to bring 2 counters/checks. Yes it can be revenged, but not before it kills something, and there's always the option of switching out.

 

[gamerno1]

*snip*

I was asking about the statistics before and after tornadus-t's release, to be clear.

 

[Vemane]

Tornadus-T gave Zapdos a niche that only Jirachi can share in the metagame right now:

It can take everything Tornadus-T can throw at it and not care. They both get recovery, but Wish requires you add protect and wastes coverage unlike Zappy. Since these are the only two Pokemon that can do this job so well obviously Tornadus-T has made Zapdos about 100% more viable than before.

Just to put an end to this silly argument, here are a few stats from pre-therian months:

| 65 | Zapdos | 2.157% |
| 63 | Zapdos | 10070 | 2.332% | 8409 | 2.363% |
| 60 | Zapdos | 6872 | 2.390% | 5861 | 2.461% |

And now the three-month stats from october-december when it got this "huge" niche:

| 74 | Zapdos | 1.781% |

I am doubting the need for any explanation...

In any case, this isn't an argument (or thread) about zapdos. It just goes to show that tornadus is not NEARLY as centralizing of a pokemon as excadrill was, as well as multiple other ubers for that matter, so using that as an argument is not all that great of a case.

Also, like I said earlier. Protect cockblocks all priority users and choice scarfers an Tornadus-T with LO uses it plenty well. Semi-Bulky Pokemon are stopped and restricted from recovery by the likes of Taunt. I brought up protect before as a means of getting past offensive checks but w/e.

It doesn't matter if protect is "viable"

Hide

| Moves |
| Hurricane 94.246% |
| U-turn 90.687% |
| Focus Blast 54.615% |
| Heat Wave 34.925% |
| Superpower 32.338% |
| Taunt 19.687% |
| Hidden Power Ice 17.385% |
| Air Slash 10.589% |
| Sleep Talk 10.538% |
| Hidden Power Ground 5.490% |
| Rain Dance 4.806% |
| Dark Pulse 3.994% |
| Grass Knot 2.784% |
| Other 17.918%

If it isn't used (ever), it isn't a topic for discussion.

By semi-bulky pokemon, I meant the likes of max-hp starmie or garchomp. You know, the ones that tornadus can't manage to ko yet can easily 1kho back.

 

[Shurtugal]

Just because it isn't used doesn't make it not viable. Otherwise, stop talking about Zapdos lol. I believe 1% usage falls under "other" in usage in OU.

 

[Vemane]

Just because it isn't used doesn't make it not viable. Otherwise, stop talking about Zapdos lol. I believe 1% usage falls under "other" in usage in OU.

I never said it wasn't viable. In fact, I said the opposite (that whether or not it is viable, it isn't used).

The fact of the matter is, protect might be a godsend for tornadus or w/e, but virtually nobody uses it, therefore is is a "gimmick" of sorts and does not have a place in discussion since it is so little occuring.

 

[Shurtugal]

By your logic Zapdos also falls under the "gimmick" of sorts and yet 3 pages of discussion took place so your point is obsolete.

 

[Meru]

I never said it wasn't viable. In fact, I said the opposite (that whether or not it is viable, it isn't used).

The fact of the matter is, protect might be a godsend for tornadus or w/e, but virtually nobody uses it, therefore is is a "gimmick" of sorts and does not have a place in discussion since it is so little occuring.

Yet you're citing Zapdos as a counter, when "virtually nobody uses it"? Is it not therefore a gimmick by your logic? You're only reinforcing that Tornadus-T has few viable counters in this metagame.

Just to put an end to this silly argument, here are a few stats from pre-therian months:

| 65 | Zapdos | 2.157% |
| 63 | Zapdos | 10070 | 2.332% | 8409 | 2.363% |
| 60 | Zapdos | 6872 | 2.390% | 5861 | 2.461% |

And now the three-month stats from october-december when it got this "huge" niche:

| 74 | Zapdos | 1.781% |

Again, there are other confounding factors in the midst of these statistics. You completely failed to account for the fact that the introduction of Thundurus-T usurped a lot of the niche that Zapdos had offensively. Try again.

 

[Vemane]

By your logic Zapdos also falls under the "gimmick" of sorts and yet 3 pages of discussion took place so your point is obsolete.

Look, shurt, you are completely missing the point.

Protect is viable, sure whatever, who cares.

However, it is so little used that discussing it is pointless as it will rarely be an issue.

Drawing a parallel to discussing a stupid move to discussing a possible counter to a subject is absolutely ridiculous and I am sure that you must have realized that.

Zapdos (why we are still discussing it, I'm unsure) has been ou for ever up until gen 5, then it falls to (top) uu and it is suddenly utter trash? Zapdos is certainly not a gimmick, it is a counter and discussion on it has already been had and is completely pointless at this point in the thread.

And that is why zapdos was discussed and protect is not.

Golurk counter terrakion
Spiritomb counter reuninclus
Steelix counters kyurem-b

None of these are used whatsoever, but does that mean they do not counter said pokemon? No.

You are both presenting complete straw man arguments that are irrelevant to everything currently being discussed (ie. what is being discussed... literally)

The fact of the matter and the plain and simple point here is that when determining what is broken, a potential hard counter (especially one not located in the depths of ru and below) is important, a move that likely has less than 10% usage is not.

Why this argument is even happening I have no fucking clue

Or is it a gimmick, which case Zapdos should not be used as a means of countering Tornadus-T (cutting its counter base literally in half).

Gimmicky or not, a counter is a counter.

(since they range around the same usage according to your statistics)

This in particular is completely absurd and misleading

There are six slots on a team and nearly 100 viable pokemon to place on said team

There are 4 slots on a pokemon and MAYBE a dozen (in most cases, much less) viable moves to place on said pokemon

Due to the far lesser diversity in the latter event, its usage should be much higher (ie. hurricane has 95% usage on tornadus, if a pokemon had that much usage...)

 

[Shurtugal]

I never said Zapdos was a gimmick, I said under your logic it was, the same logic you applied to my protect. Both can be used as "counters": Zapdos vs. Tornadus-T and Protect vs. Tornadus-T's offensive checks.

Yet, applying your logic, my Protect is a gimmick. Therefore, according to your logic (being which since Protect isn't used its a gimmick), so is Zapdos (since they range around the same usage according to your statistics). And now you contradict yourself by saying it isn't.

So which is it? Is Zapdos not a gimmick, because therefore Protect is not a gimmick and a legitimate way past its Offensive Checks (only lowering its utility of checks and counters, and proving it can get past every type of check). Or is it a gimmick, which case Zapdos is also a gimmick, and should not be used as a means of countering Tornadus-T (cutting its counter base literally in half).

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

What's with the "usage" arguments? If I recall correctly, Tornadus-T did not even hit top 20 in the most recent stats and I believe Wobbuffet's usage was extremely low in DPP when it was banned. On the other hand, Scizor's usage was ridiculous around the time Platinum was released. Did that make Scizor broken? Nope.

Anyway, from my experience against Tornadus-T, only a few Pokemon can claim to switch in easily: Jirachi, Zapdos, SpD Skarmory, and SpD Rotom-W. SpD Skarmory is shut down by Taunt, and it's not like phazing would help you against Tornadus-T anyway (plus, Tornadus can just switch out to recover some damage taken from Brave Bird). SpD Rotom-W has no reliable recovery (Pain Split and Rest are not reliable), so odds are over the course of a match, Tornadus-T will outlive it. Besides, if you wanted a bulky Rotom-W, would you use SpD Rotom-W over the standard bulky attacker if it weren't for Tornadus-T? I know I wouldn't. That leaves Jirachi and Zapdos, but they can both take on Tornadus-T pretty well most of the time.

As for the whole revenge killer argument... Well, you aren't switching those revenge killers right on in, are you? Most of them are OHKOed by Hurricane, or 2HKOed if they're Jolteon or Scarf Rotom-W. Good luck having to allow something to die every time Tornadus comes in just so you can try to revenge kill it, only for it to switch out to something to beat your revenge killer (i.e. Ferrothorn in the case of your Electrics) and recover some damage it may have taken with Regenerator. So, in my eyes, revenge killers are temporary fixes in this case.

I've noticed that these factors bring Tornadus-T close to a "Click Hurricane and win games" Pokemon. While it's not quite there, its short list of counters and ability to outlive its revenge killers easily thanks to Regenerator bring it just about as close as you can get to "Click Hurricane and win games". And when you shouldn't be clicking Hurricane, you can click U-turn to get a free switch into your opponent's counters. Such a Pokemon that requires little to no thought to use is not good for the metagame.

 

[Shurtugal]

I just noticed something:

the option "other" for Tornadus-T is used more than Sleep Talk itself. It actually uses other moves nearly the same amount of times as Taunt, and unless you can name something more viable than the moves listed, I'm banking that move is more or less Protect.


The reason I'm argueing protect is simple: the move protect literally helps with all of its offensive checks. Its the same as ProtectTerrakion. I'm not going to argue with you further, check up on the ProtectTerrakion discussion (since the usage of ProtectTerrakion is near similar to Tornadus-T, and they literally do the same thing for both of them).

Anyway, back to the main point. If your not willing to allow Protect as a viable means past these offensive checks, then why should we consider Zapdos a counter? By all means you avoided my question.

"Gimmicky or not, a counter is a counter."

-- and so is Protect. What is your point? "Gimmick or not" ProtectTornadus-T gets past offensive checks. That's applying your logic.

I meant with Zappy and Protect having the same usage as in the fact that not many players use either of these options, which was originally your arguement towards Protect being gimmicky, and you yourself said that gimmicks have no place for discussion, and therefore neither does Zapdos since you recognized it as a gimmick. Please cut that counter base in half!

EDIT:

The fact of the matter is, protect might be a godsend for tornadus or w/e, but virtually nobody uses it, therefore is is a "gimmick" of sorts and does not have a place in discussion since it is so little occuring.

Okay, so since you recognized Zapdos as a gimmick, you cannot use it as a counter and has no place for discussion since its so little occurring

Gimmicky or not, a counter is a counter. *snip* Why this argument is even happening I have no fucking clue

This argument is continuing since your logic is absurd

 

[Vemane]

I just noticed something:

the option "other" for Tornadus-T is used more than Sleep Talk itself. It actually uses other moves nearly the same amount of times as Taunt, and unless you can name something more viable than the moves listed, I'm banking that move is more or less Protect.

"other" refers to a COMBINATION of moves used less than the least used move. Which means that protect has less than 2.7% usage...

The reason I'm argueing protect is simple: the move protect literally helps with all of its offensive checks. Its the same as ProtectTerrakion. I'm not going to argue with you further, check up on the ProtectTerrakion discussion (since the usage of ProtectTerrakion is near similar to Tornadus-T, and they literally do the same thing for both of them).

What you aren't understanding is that I'm not fucking arguing against protect's viability. Whatsoever. Period. I said nothing besides that it isn't common, nothing more.

I meant with Zappy and Protect having the same usage as in the fact that not many players use either of these options, which was originally your arguement towards Protect being gimmicky.

Actually, you meant "they range around the same usage" (in fact, that's exactly what you said). But I digress and return to the concept that I in no way discounted protect's viability whatsoever anywhere in this thread.

Though since you are so hard pressed about it, I might as well question it:

Protect on tornadus does very little, tbh, considering if something like keldeo switches in after a full health tornadus kills, it is going to use hydro pump or tornadus isn't going to die and the team will now have no checks.

It is lovely for easing prediction against other common scarfers that threaten tornadus, but there is absolutely no need as tornadus is very rarely put on the spot. It is the one that places the OPPONENT under extreme offensive pressure, not the other way around.

If you use protect, it means you can't use taunt, or rain dance, or any of those other very useful options (and are now checked/countered by quite a bit more), not to mention that protect=no specs=no power.

It is viable, but just like zapdos, it is often outclassed, except unlike zapdos, it doesn't have much of a niche since the opponent will always have more pressure on them then the tornadus user

I think YOU are missing the point. Zapdos is a good pokemon in itself complemented by the fact that it checks tornT. It deals with sun, wreaks rain stall, pp stalls sand mons and checks lando i. The mons you mentioned have little utility outside of checking that 1 mon. Why would you even resort to steelix when there's forre/ferro? steelix is 2hkoed by ep anyways. The point is, zapdos is hardly comparable with the likes of those mons.

What the fuck? LOL That wasn't the point at all. I was the one arguing for it by stating that zapdos is a counter, no matter how little used, and is even better as one since it isn't a bottom-of-the-line pokemon (its top 10 uu iirc). Read the conversation more than one post back or something

 

[CTC]

Look, shurt, you are completely missing the point.

Golurk counter terrakion
Spiritomb counter reuninclus
Steelix counters kyurem-b

None of these are used whatsoever, but does that mean they do not counter said pokemon? No.

[/B]

I think YOU are missing the point. Zapdos is a good pokemon in itself complemented by the fact that it checks tornT. It deals with sun, wreaks rain stall, pp stalls sand mons and checks lando i. The mons you mentioned have little utility outside of checking that 1 mon. Why would you even resort to steelix when there's forre/ferro? steelix is 2hkoed by ep anyways. The point is, zapdos is hardly comparable with the likes of those mons.

 

[ginganinja]

hi

Basically, can people stop crapping on Zapdos (calling it weak is a bad argument) or overhyping it (seriously, some of these posts make Zapdos sound like its the fucking saviour of mankind or something). Lets call it what is is, a mediocre pokemon in OU that has a fair matchup against rain. Lets move the Zapdos discussion on, its been discussed to death and encouraging shitty posts by both sides of the Ban / Don't ban Torn discussion.

Ta

Can we just pretend as if Zapdos didn't really exist because man, it shits up this thread so much that its not even worth discussing T_T.

Discuss Keldeo or something gdi

 

[Rewer]

something that fucks up about torn-t is the confusion haxes, gdi, sometimes hurricane confuses and you hit yourself so you can't heal. that's really retarded, you had a counter and there's nothing skillfull and safe you can really do to not get destroyed by tornadus, even though you pack a good counter for it, being similar garchomp and his 20% chance to beat everything.