Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Team 2 won!]

[MMII]

I agree with Remedy (although it wasn't explicitly stated) that it would be best to choose the win condition for Team 2 with the first of the two final picks. Heracross and Mamoswine are countered by Bronzong, Skarmory and, to some extent, Forretress however each has their own advantages and disadvantages that deciding on which would be best to choose will depend on the win condition. However, they are still worth keeping in mind as, ideally, we should choose a win condition who's counters are answered by a combination of one of these three and the rest of the team. (while avoiding to push them into an undesirable choice like Deo-D) Since Team 2 has absolute freedom in their final pick it is impossible to pick a sweeper that make completely one-sided. So, the best we can do is pick a Pokemon that threatens every member of Team 1's current match-up, is flexible when it comes to sweeping and who lacks any hard counters.

Terrakion @ Life Orb
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance
- Substitute

What does this set do? Terrakion has been one of the most fearsome sweepers in OU since the beginning of the 5th generation. With near perfect STAB's and the ideal stat distribution for a sweeper in OU it comes as no surprise that he has been given a S rank in the OU Viability Thread. SubSD Terrakion showcases the immense flexibility given to Terrakion thanks to already excellent coverage granted by his Rock-Fighting STABs alone. Sword Dance lets Terrakion double his attack to break through even the sturdiest of physical walls and put gaping holes in the opponent's team. Substitute is a cool idea suggested by Remedy that plays basically the same way as Rock Polish would as Terrakion already outruns the entire Team 1 except for Heracross. (You can see the reasoning behind this choice in this post) Which is the best to use depends on the team and situation. Life Orb is is a general item that gives him a boost in power so that he can accomplish either one of these sweeps.

Calcs

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Kyurem-B: 476-562 (104.84 - 123.78%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Rotom-W: 216-255 (71.28 - 84.15%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Rotom-W: 430-507 (141.91 - 167.32%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 231-273 (68.95 - 81.49%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 461-543 (137.61 - 162.08%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 269-317 (89.36 - 105.31%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 608-717 (168.42 - 198.61%) -- guaranteed OHKO

How can this set help the team? Terrakion is Team 2's win condition and a very terrifying one at that. Even without any sort of boost he threatens to OHKO almost the entire team. This means that he will be forcing a LOT of switches which will be an opportunity to Substitute and sweep past the Scarf Heracross or SD to wall break whatever counter is chosen as the final pick. His resistance to SR is also very important as Cube's DTail will undoubtedly shuffle Team 2 around a bit. It also means he can switch-in multiple times to help soften up the OP's team himself.

What can the other team do in response to this set? Although there may not be any hard counters to Terrakion there are still some that will force Team 2 to play a bit smarter if they want to successfully sweep. Slowbro, Gliscor, and Hippowdon are the best counters to Terrakion as they can tank all tank a +2 attack while attacking back with their SE STAB attack. Scizor is also worth mentioning as, although it may not be able to switch safely into Terrakion, it's almighty Bullet Punch allows it cut off its sweep if Terrakion isn't hiding behind a Substitute while also having excellent synergy with the rest of Team 1.

Why Terrakion lacks hard counters

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 286-337 (72.58 - 85.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 SpA Slowbro Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 212-252 (65.63 - 78.01%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 261-308 (73.72 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 224-266 (69.34 - 82.35%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Hippowdon: 328-386 (78.09 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 386-456 (119.5 - 141.17%) guaranteed OHKO

What potential additions can be made to deal with these responses? The only potential responses are the three mentioned earlier. Fortunately, the two stronger counters to Heracross and Mamoswine are the two best answers to the checks/counters to Terrakion. Bronzong has nothing to fear from Gliscor or Hippowdon while taking minimal damage from Mamoswine and being a general nuisance to Team 1. Skarmory shuts down Gliscor and Hippowdon as well as laughing at any of Scizor's attacks and boasting reliable recovery. Slowbro is already hard countered by Celebii so these two don't have to worry about dealing with him.

 

[G-Von]

Well I was going to post Choice Specs Latios here, but realized all the attackers on this team are all special AKA slap Chansey on Team 1 and we all get walled.

I'll reserve this spot for my selection when I come up with a better submission.

EDIT: FUCK IT. YOLO.

Latios@Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EV's: 252 SpA/252 Spe/4 HP
Nature: Modest
-Draco Meteor
-Energy Ball/Solarbeam
-HP Fire
-Psyshock

What this set does: Going against what I said previously, I decided to side with this behemoth of a special attacker, Latios. A Modest nature is my choice because a Timid nature does nothing for us except lose power. We out speed the same stuff on team 1 with a Modest nature as a Timid nature and we aren't catching Heracross anytime soon without a scarf. Three out of the four moves are pretty standard, with Energy Ball/Solarbeam as the only odd choice. Obviously, if we decide to run a Sun team, it will be Solarbeam, and if not, Energy Ball will be the selection. I chose this over Surf and Thunder(bolt) since an electric move is pretty pointless against Team 1 and EB 2HKO's Landorus and OHKO's Rotom-W after SR (Hint!). EB also prevents Team 1 from picking Starmie as their spinner if we find a way to get a hazard setter onto this team (which I reccomend). HP Fire is there to prevent Team 1 from choosing either Ferrothorn or Forretress to wall Latios. Draco Meteor currently OHKO's their entire team. Psyshock is for Blissey, who gets 2HKO'd comfortably, and Chansey, who possibly gets 2HKO'd after rocks.

Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 286-337 (40.62 - 47.86%) 64.45% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latios Energy Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 272-320 (89.76 - 105.61%) 37.5% chance to OHKO (guaranteed after SR)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latios Energy Ball vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 173-204 (51.64 - 60.89%) guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latios Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 434-512 (120.22 - 141.82%) guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 262-310 (87.04 - 102.99%) 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I chose to throw Chansey in there to demonstrate the destruction of Latios. These are his coverage moves doing this much damage. Like I said, nothing can take a Specs DM from him right now. If we have a Stealth Rocker for our 6th choice, they have to choose a steel-typed rapid spinner, AKA Forretress. We all know it's fate if it gets nailed with an HP Fire, though. He also OHKO's every spinner except lolClaydol.

How this set helps the team: It pretty much causes total chaos for Team 1. Without a steel-type or pink blob, Draco Spam kills everything. I feel like Rotom-W would have been annoying to deal with, even with Celebi, but now it really is not a problem.

Team 2's options against Latios: I am at the point where I feel like Team 2 has no options. Chansey would be the number one choice, having a chance to survive 2 Psyshocks after SR. All it would be doing is SB'ing the damage away and waiting to get crit'd though. Forretress is the other option to help take on DM's and spin away hazards, but fears for its life because HP Fire will roast it.

Potential additions that can be made to deal with these responses: Add a Stealth Rocker to guarantee OHKO's instead of having to play the min-max game and to give Latios a 2/3 chance at 2HKO'ing Chansey. SR also breaks Forretress's Sturdy.

 

[TyranitarAbuser]

I was going to post a Terrakion set as well, but Melee Mewtwo's is better than mine. Anyways, just wanted to say that Stone Edge has the tendency to miss (which somtimes can be fatal) and that most of the things Terrak 2HKO unboosted can OHKO back

 

[Reymedy]

Terrakion is solid as always, but it may not lack some room to set-up ?
It can't really set-up on any mon of the opposing team without bluffing an attack, for instance coming on Kyurem-B and set-up on a possble switch. My point is, if the ennmy does not want to let it happen, he can just "sac" the poke to prevent Terrak from setting-up (with Kyu or Mamo for instance).
And then he will put Landorus-T and probably set-up a RP and start sweeping (I know we got a wall, but Celebi can't really switch in and wall it all the game, it's nice to let really few rooms for Landorus to sweep in my opinion, Celebi can be weakened).

So, my point, we could consider a Rock Gem on Terrakion which gives roughly a 50% chance to kill Landorus after SR damage. Meaning that the "average roll" kills him and he won't be able to fire off any HP Ice in case of Low Roll.
An Adamant Terrakion can also be considered as anyway, nobody on the opposite team threaten the speed tier.

Another thing is that Heracross can obvious kill Terrakion, so we still don't have any safe switch in to Heracross.
Not saying Terrakion is bad or what, because it's obviously not the case.
Also I'm wondering if just putting Sub instead of RP would not be better because when you tries to setup on a Mamo for instance (predicting a switch) you rather scout a little with Substitutes than play the 50/50 game with RP or SD.

 

[G-Von]

Edited my previous post. Scroll up to see my selection. By the way:

Why Terrakion lacks hard counters

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Hippowdon: 328-386 (78.09 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 258-306 (79.87 - 94.73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Remember, after a CC, Terrakion is at -1 Defense so this would be the actual damage calc for EQ:

0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 386-456 (119.5 - 141.17%) guaranteed OHKO.

I would say he is a hard counter based on that calc.

 

[Shurtugal]

I say replace Life Orb for Air Balloon on Terrakion so we can switch into Landorus-I and Mamoswine more frequently. The communities thoughts? I'm liking Terrakion (and will probably vote for it) but I really want to replace LO for Balloon since its such a spike in the oppositions side (especially since DD doesn't care about LO too much since you have SD, and that free round of set up is more useful).

Also; about Gliscor:

1. I told you bastards to run 290 spe on Landorus-I so Adamant Gliscor couldn't outpace us.
2. I told you all to run Icicle Spear (although I admit there wasn't substitutes at the time so Icicle Crash is better but w/e).
3. SubSD Gliscor is actually very good if it gets up a Substitute, and we are only prone to it since no one listened to me XD

Regardless, I find Balloon Terrakion better than Scor anyway so I guess my changes aren't really needed since no one is going to vote for it really, since substitute is very situational, but w/e!

;3 That's the bell to leave school and I got a buss to hit so bye ~!

 

[ganj4lF]

I actually like Terrakion, but I'd just like to point out that it has perfectly viable hard counters:

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 200 HP / 244 Def Landorus-T: 270-320 (73.17 - 86.72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Rock Gem would help quite a bit, although I'd rather deal with an eventual counter in other ways, like weakening it, or just pick something that can set-up on it (hazards, for example). Skarmory comes to mind.

 

[MMII]

Terrakion is solid as always, but it may not lack some room to set-up ?

That's the beauty of this Terrakion set, it already outspeeds 4/5 of the other team's pokemon and threatens to deal massive damage or straight up OHKO them unboosted. It also does have an opportunity to set up on Heracross locked into Megahorn. (Not expecting it to be a common situation but it is still a sure shot at pulling off a mid-late game clean)

An Adamant Terrakion can also be considered as anyway, nobody on the opposite team threaten the speed tier.

Yeah, I considered Adamant Terrak as well but decided against it as it gives him, essentially, a 94 base speed which means that a fast Gliscor/Mew become hard counters as they easily wall a speed boosted Terrak while outspeeding and KOing a attack boosted one.

Another thing is that Heracross can obvious kill Terrakion, so we still don't have any safe switch in to Heracross.

I explained in the beginning of my post that it is better to chose our cleaner for this pick and then the most convenient Mamo/Heracross counter for the final pick. (I also pointed out that Skarm/Zong pair nicely with Terrakion while accomplishing this goal at the end of my post.)

Also I'm wondering if just putting Sub instead of RP would not be better because when you tries to setup on a Mamo for instance (predicting a switch) you rather scout a little with Substitutes than play the 50/50 game with RP or SD.

Sub is an interesting idea although I'm somewhat worried about eating away Terrakion's HP too quickly with LO + Subsitute damage.

Remember, after a CC, Terrakion is at -1 Defense so this would be the actual damage calc for EQ:

0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 386-456 (119.5 - 141.17%) guaranteed OHKO.

I would say he is a hard counter based on that calc.

Ah thanks for the correction, I edited it in my post. However, Hippowdon is still not a hard counter to Terrakion. A "hard" counter is a Pokemon that can counter the opposing Pokemon easily under almost any circumstances. Hippowdon counters Terrakion in the sense that it can switch into any of its attacks under normal battle conditions and threaten to KO it. However, it isn't a hard counter as it risks a OHKO with SR + Spikes or with just a tad bit of previous damage. (For examples of hard counters think of Skarm against BW Haxorus or Chansey against Celebii)

I say replace Life Orb for Air Balloon on Terrakion so we can switch into Landorus-I and Mamoswine more frequently. The communities thoughts? I'm liking Terrakion (and will probably vote for it) but I really want to replace LO for Balloon since its such a spike in the oppositions side (especially since DD doesn't care about LO too much since you have SD, and that free round of set up is more useful).

Well, Celebii gives Terrakion switch-in opportunities which is good enough considering he barely needs any thought to get a kill and just a tad bit more to threaten a sweep. Plus, Air Ballon is a one time item and it will significantly drop Terrakion's power making it easier to pick a good counter for it and less threatening in general.

Also; about Gliscor:

1. I told you bastards to run 290 spe on Landorus-I so Adamant Gliscor couldn't outpace us.
2. I told you all to run Icicle Spear (although I admit there wasn't substitutes at the time so Icicle Crash is better but w/e).
3. SubSD Gliscor is actually very good if it gets up a Substitute, and we are only prone to it since no one listened to me XD

Regardless, I find Balloon Terrakion better than Scor anyway so I guess my changes aren't really needed since no one is going to vote for it really, since substitute is very situational, but w/e!

I didn't want to nitpick it earlier but Remedy made an error in mentioning Gengar as a hard counter to his set but then completely dismissing it. Team 1's final pick is completely open to counter whatever is chosen as the win condition for Team 2 so Gengar will definitely be chosen if Gliscor is picked. (unless there is an even better answer to that set is brought up)

I actually like Terrakion, but I'd just like to point out that it has perfectly viable hard counters:

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 200 HP / 244 Def Landorus-T: 270-320 (73.17 - 86.72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Lando-T is in the same boat as Hippowdon in that it counters Terrakion but doesn't hard counter it. Lando-T lacks a reliable form of recovery so it is very easy to get the bit of previous damage needed to pull off a clean OHKO. (Plus, Team 1 can't pick Lando-T as they already have Lando-I on their team.)

Rock Gem would help quite a bit, although I'd rather deal with an eventual counter in other ways, like weakening it, or just pick something that can set-up on it (hazards, for example). Skarmory comes to mind.

I considered Rock Gem but decided against it as it is a one time item and only accomplishes in reducing the number of counters to Terrakion and not reducing their effectiveness at preventing his sweep. (It may let him beat Gliscor/Slowbro but then Hippowdon becomes an even better answer.)



Oh and on the subject Specs Latios, I feel that he's just a unnecessarily faster and less flexible Hydreigon. Dragon spam is cool and all but he is just doing a worse job of what Hydreigon is already doing for the team. (Plus, it is easy for Scizor/TTar to come in one of it's choice locked attacks and Pursuit trap it.)

Edit: Yeah I understand, that is why I tried to define it earlier in this post. I should have added a note somewhere in my submission to make that clear to readers.

 

[ganj4lF]

Oh well, I was thinking about a simple "counter". I have no idea about how is a "hard counter" defined, so...

 

[Reymedy]

"Originally Posted by Fat Remedy
Another thing is that Heracross can obvious kill Terrakion, so we still don't have any safe switch in to Heracross.

I explained in the beginning of my post that it is better to chose our cleaner for this pick and then the most convenient Mamo/Heracross counter for the final pick. (I also pointed out that Skarm/Zong pair nicely with Terrakion while accomplishing this goal at the end of my post.)"

Then my point would be, why not take Gliscor that handles Heracross AND clean at the same time ?
Because the pokemons that you listed, err, I must admit that I would rather not pick them when Team 1 still have a pick in its pocket.
Moreover Skarmory, because I don't see Bronzong at all, maybe even strenghten the need for Team 1 to not use Megahorn, thus destroy any real set-up possibility for Terrakion.
And as I said my main fear about this set is that in fact, you really can't set-up except on a switch, which is to me really not a solution we should take when we have the choice to take pokemons that could set-up in peace.
I also believe that Sub/RockGem is really superior, it's one time use (only Lando), but you won't need it more than once anyway so it should not be an issue given that you can tempo it behind a Substitute (you're behind your sub and you can CC the Lando, if he switches you killed someone, if he didn't, now he's in range for SE).

 

[MMII]

Then my point would be, why not take Gliscor that handles Heracross AND clean at the same time ?

We would still need to pick a counter to Mamoswine that can set up the obligatory SR for the team. These counters consist of the same three steels I mentioned earlier with an extension to psychic types like Mew and Deoxys-D. Plus, Terrakion (unlike Gliscor) lacks a hard counter giving Team 2 a strong advantage over Team 1 when it comes to sweeping/cleaning.

Because the pokemons that you listed, err, I must admit that I would rather not pick them when Team 1 still have a pick in its pocket.
Moreover Skarmory, because I don't see Bronzong at all, maybe even strenghten the need for Team 1 to not use Megahorn, thus destroy any real set-up possibility for Terrakion.

Skarmory and Bronzong (which you fail to provide the reasons for dismissing so easily) are very good choices for Team 2 as they wall a large portion of Team 1 (Especially Lando-I who is their win condition making it doubly hard for them to sweep), resist Cube's DTail while threatening back with Steel STAB, counter the possible counters to Terrakion and can reliably set up SR. (as well as Spikes in the case of Skarm)

If Heracross refuses to Megahorn then Celebii is a safe switch-in that can profit from the forced switch to safely Baton Pass Terrakion in to wreck havoc.

And as I said my main fear about this set is that in fact, you really can't set-up except on a switch, which is to me really not a solution we should take when we have the choice to take pokemons that could set-up in peace.

Terrakion doesn't need the setup. RP and SD are bonuses for good prediction that place a lot of pressure on Team 1's counter pick as well as choices in battle.

I also believe that Sub/RockGem is really superior, it's one time use (only Lando), but you won't need it more than once anyway so it should not be an issue given that you can tempo it behind a Substitute (you're behind your sub and you can CC the Lando, if he switches you killed someone, if he didn't, now he's in range for SE).

I'm going to decide against Rock Gem since it reduces Terrakion's general effectiveness for a OHKO on a mon that is placed with KO range switching into a resist anyways. Substitute is a very tempting idea. I'm going to keep RP for the time being as it doesn't eat up HP and lets Terrakion but I'm more than willing to change it if others support the idea.

 

[Nova]

Scizor @ Leftovers
Trait: Technician
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Roost
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite

What does this set do?
I’d like to propose Swords Dance Scizor for Team 2. Scizor’s powerful Technician boosted Bullet Punch checks everything on Team 1 except for Rotom-W and provides some much needed priority for Team 2. With this bulky set, Scizor can take just about any hit from Team 1 and Roost off the damage while setting up Swords Dances. Roost+Leftovers provides Scizor with great survivability while coupled with his resistances means he can often get more than just one SD under his belt. He has plenty of opportunities to set up these SDs including against Mamoswine and Heracross locked into a resisted move, and also can set up after tanking a hit from Landorus and Rotom-W. After setting up a boost, Scizor can give Team 1 trouble with Bullet Punch and outspeed Rotom-W, hence the reason for 168 Speed EVs, and take it out with a Bug Bite which has a 43.75% chance to OHKO Rotom-W at full HP with the given spread at +2. At +2, Scizor’s Bullet Punch has a 43.75% chance to OHKO Heracross, a 31.25% chance to OHKO Kyurem-B, is a guaranteed OHKO on Mamoswine, and does a hefty 70.14-82.68% to Landorus. If Scizor gets 2 Swords Dances, then it’s game over as Scizor can “outspeed” and OHKO everything on Team 1.

How can this set help the team?
This set gives Team 2 an easy win condition that is very straight forward. If Scizor can get to 2 Swords Dances, then Team 1 loses. If it can get to 1 Swords Dance, then Team 1 has almost already lost as well as Scarf Keldeo can clean up what Scizor cannot.

What can the other team do in response to this set?
Team 1 cannot really do much to this Scizor set. Landorus is its best bet as Earth Power does 83.49-99% to Scizor but it does not OHKO. Rotom-W can Thunder Wave Scizor but he will be typically relying on Bullet Punch anyways so he does not really fear the lowered Speed, the only thing that could beat is getting hit by a potential Fully Paralyzed.


Calcs:

Hide

+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Rotom-W: 274-324 (90.42 - 106.93%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 271-321 (90.03 - 106.64%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Kyurem-B: 404-476 (88.98 - 104.84%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 516-608 (142.93 - 168.42%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 235-277 (70.14 - 82.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 88 HP / 148 SpD Scizor: 253-300 (83.49 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Reymedy]

You say that we need some kind of Mamoswine full counter.
I don't agree at all and I see no reason why we should be forced to do so.
My idea, I see as a good option to pick Gliscor, and Terrakion with SR.

Those pokemons, Skarmory, Bronzong etc, are just awfully easy to abuse for a lot of pokemons, those who got Taunt for instance, or who wall the poor offensive options they chosed.
And since the last team will see the full set of your Skar/Brong, there is no way you can't fool people about the coverage you chose.
For instance a Dual Screen Espeon, can switch like np on Celebi, decently take Keldeo attacks, have nothing to fear from Heatran bar the possible burn and will have another totally free switch in on Bronzong. Not even Hydreigon threaten him because he Light Screen before an y attack and have a fast heal option.
You can't also double switch Terrakion in, because without RP you will be forced to speed tie him.

This is just a mere example, but this would really doom the second team in my opinion since a pretty safe Screen support will be provided, as well as a decent wall and anti hasards option. On the top of this, Espeon can kill two of our members.

My point is, if Terrakion forces us to take a fully defensive option that you mentionned, I prefer take some pokemon able to also wall a part of the team, in order to not be fully locked in some easily abused option.

By the way, at this point, Scizor is in my opinion, also a better option to Terrakion, because it can take hits and have some pretty good options to hit the opposing team (indeed Bullet Punch crushes a large part of the team).
But it is a pretty easy to wall set, especially with those two offensive slots. I would pick Superpower over Bug Bite, just to not let so many available walls for the opposing team (even if you lose some power against Rotom-W).

 

[Shurtugal]

I suggested Balloon because I don't want team 1 to EQ spam us (especially Mamoswine).

Also, unless we are missing KOs without LO I don't see why we should use it over Balloon. (Especially since Balloon stops RP Landy-I, and makes it a safe switch into Mamo). Also, I personally hate LO recoil. Plus, how is Terrakion getting free set up / switch on TWave Celebi?

Currently, nothing can switch into Mamo; at least Balloon gives us extra insurance if we need it, and free set up if we go for RK on Mamo (since if it switches we set up).

How is balloon signifigantly dropping power? SubSalac doesn't run LO and its power is fine; we have SD we don't need LO that much. I just feel Balloon is better vs. Team 1 since Landy-I and Mamo have a much harder time. I wish other users would discuss, I understand it can break easy but a good player should be able to easily put pressure on the opponent. If we're missing KOs without LO than please keep it, but if not than at least give it more consideration please =P

 

[Reymedy]

Balloon is a fine option, but the main issue that me and Ganjalf tried to fix was the fact that Landorus can take a hit and kill Terrakion after he RP'd on the previous turn. Balloon, sadly, does not fix that however and this may be why people felt a little reluctant about it.

Nonetheless, I believe that if we choose to play Terrakion as a SR setter instead of some boosting machine (that can't and does not need to boost as stated in the previous posts), we should considerate Balloon as a pretty good option.

Since even mewtwo agrees that we don't even need those boosts, why not just go SR/CC/SE/filler(SD/Taunt...) ?
And Heracross who looks threatening to this pokemon, is dealt with by Gliscor who can safely Sub and hit anything coming. Everything looks fine here.

 

[Shurtugal]

It can't KO Landy-I, but if it sets up RP you should be attacking it (and put into into SE range), since you should never let anything set up for free imo if you can see it comming. Also, if Landy-I RPs while in SE KO range, it can't mindlessly spam EP, which was why I suggested it.

Also, I'm not sure how I feel about SR setter vs. Double Dance. Double Dance set can set up on Kyu at +0, and it can 2HKO Wash, it can come in on Mamo with Balloon and if you've put Landy into SE KO range than it virtually can do nothing. Also, if you come in on it while it doesn't have any boosts, Rak wins with the 2HKO (set up on obvious switch after balloon break for GG?) Nothing can take a CC without being 2HKO'd, which makes RP ideal. However, you do kind of need SD to finish the job. I'm just not sure how important rocks are compared to a sweeper than can possible clean up late game (especially with balloon, if Landy-I is in KO range you RP as he hp ice's and your faster than everything).

I understand that rocks is a neccessity when teambuilding, but they really don't have any Poke who particually gives a shit but Kyu-B, and we have 2 solid checks and 1 solid counter in Heatarn. So I really don't see the point in using a SR setter when it makes Rak prone to someone just attacking as he SR's (and causing him to die... which would not be good).

I'm in support on Balloon Double Dance because it has so many set up oppurtunities, and late-game it only really needs to set up RP since everything should be in OHKO range around late-game imo.

EDIT:

You could modify Rak if you want SR:

Terrak @ Balloon
252 atk / 252 spe / 4 sdef
jolly

- stealth rock / swords dance
- rock polish
- close combat
- stone edge

More discussion on SR vs. SD? I feel SD is better for the late-game sweeping and SR is kinda useless vs. Team1 atm.

 

[TyranitarAbuser]

Hitmontop@ Life Orb

Trait: Technician

Nature: Adamant

Ev: 252HP/252Atk/4Def

Moves:
Mach Punch
Fake Out
Close Combat
Stone Edge

Hitmontop effectively deals with Mamoswine with its STAB Close Combat and has a Stab Technician boosted Mach Punch along with Fake Out for Revenging purposes. Stone Edge deals with Dragonite or Salamence that outspeed Hydregion. Physical walls that counter it such as Skarmory or Gliscor are taken care of by Heatran and Keldeo. Celebi also pairs well with Hitmontop, taking Psychic type moves that Hitmontop cannot.

As for SD over SR, I feel that it might be better due to the fact that it will nab some important KOes. However, do remember that we are currently hazardless, and weakening Cube with at least SR will be important, as that thing is so damn bulky.

 

[Reymedy]

One thing we need to clear first, Landorus will only do this thing if he knows that he can end the whole thing, basically he needs to lower Celebi to half life before.
This is still a room we leave open with Terrakion.

On the other hand, you seem to assume that Terrakion with Balloon can set-up on Mamo for free, which is a big mistake because Mamoswine kills Terrakion with Icycle Crash + Ice Shard.
So Balloon or not, here it's useless.

Let's not forget than who cares how many boosts Terrakion could gather when the opposing team have the solution to take a priority.
So to make it clear, without Substitute, because we know the set and the pokemon, Double Dance Terrakion won't be sweeping any "counterthatpokemon" team so easily when picks are left.

 

[TyranitarAbuser]

Late at night, but one last post. The main problem with Team two here is the lack of reliable counters to Scarf Heracross.

 

[dragontamer74pe]

Why are we doubling up with fighting types? Our team was already weak to alakazam and again I'd recommend sub on Terrakion as otherwise it's just not setting up. Or maybe the sd sash Terrakion as then we can get rocks which help us get kos. Imo team 2 have the advantage and sash+sd Terrakion beats their team. On the other hand heracross beats us and Mamoswine is a pain too.
Gyarados was a poke that beats them both but rotom-W beats it easily. Ik a poke that does beat their team though as it's quicker than their scarfer and they can't switch in.

Kyurem-B Choice Scarf
252 attack 252speed 4hp jolly
Outrage
Dragon claw
Fusion bolt
Freeze shock
Nothing gets in safely against this. If you think freeze shock should be replaced then I'm open to suggestions and also the ev spread but team-1 can't really beat dragons that don't die to Mamoswine. They can't really choose scizor and this forces them to run a steel limiting their options to a few steels. They are already relatively weak to fire which isn't the best for them and kyurems 170 base attack is a lot of power to take. Hydrogen can also weaken most of the steels making hydriegon be able to spam Draco as they don't want their steel weakened.

 

[MMII]

He has plenty of opportunities to set up these SDs including against Mamoswine and Heracross locked into a resisted move, and also can set up after tanking a hit from Landorus and Rotom-W.

I just wanted to point out that Mamoswine hits a bit hard for Scizor to easily setup on it as easily as it can on Heracross locked into Megahorn.

Calcs

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 234-277 (77.22 - 91.41%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 99-118 (32.67 - 38.94%) -- 9.91% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 47-57 (15.51 - 18.81%) -- possible 8HKO

This means that Scizor can only switch into Ice Shard or SR if it wants to set up a SD on Mamoswine. Mamoswine also has a strong chance to KO with a combination of EQ, SR, and Ice Shard (Mamo outspeeds) so even if you did come in safely (like from BP) you still risk being KO'd trying to set up.

What can the other team do in response to this set?
Team 1 cannot really do much to this Scizor set.

Team 1 can pick something like Heatran in response to this set as it shrugs off even +6 attacks and OHKO's with its Fire STAB.

You say that we need some kind of Mamoswine full counter.
I don't agree at all and I see no reason why we should be forced to do so.

*looks at thread title*
We very much do need to pick a counter to Mamoswine if we plan on not scrapping a mon every time it comes in. (Which it will thanks to Rotom's Volt Switch)

Those pokemons, Skarmory, Bronzong etc, are just awfully easy to abuse for a lot of pokemons, those who got Taunt for instance, or who wall the poor offensive options they chosed.

If Team 1 wants to counter Zong/Skarm then they can't counter Terrakion and vice verse.

If they choose something like Espeon (who still doesn't like switching into Gyro Ball/U-Turn) then Terrakion can just RP once it gets the chance and sweep the team.

My point is, if Terrakion forces us to take a fully defensive option that you mentionned, I prefer take some pokemon able to also wall a part of the team, in order to not be fully locked in some easily abused option.

I'm not sure if you are talking about our cleaner walling part of the team or the fully defensive option. If it is the latter, then yes Zong/Skarm do wall a good portion of Team 1 like I mentioned earlier. If it's the former then ignore this as I'm not sure what you are trying to get at then.

Plus, how is Terrakion getting free set up / switch on TWave Celebi?

Sorry, I probably worded that poorly. What I meant to say is that Celebii can bring Terrakion in safely as it can use its Baton Pass on a faster foe or on a switch out.

How is balloon signifigantly dropping power?

I was going to run up some calcs but Remedy is right that Icicle Crash already hits 67% min. and Lando packs Psychic so there isn't much to be gained. However, the significant power drop I was thinking of came to when the OP wanted to counter Terrak as he wouldn't be able to do things like OHKO Skarm after SR and a SD. (Oh and SalacTerrak is very good cause the Meta is very HO so it doesn't need the extra wall breaking power to beat underused mons like Skarm, Hippo, etc.)

Balloon is a fine option, but the main issue that me and Ganjalf tried to fix was the fact that Landorus can take a hit and kill Terrakion after he RP'd on the previous turn.

This is pretty situational as Terrak isn't going to RP unless Lando is already weakened enough to sweep. Seeing as he can't switch into any of his other moves he isn't a really big concern. Plus getting about 20-30% previous damage for the OHKO isn't that hard when SR takes 12% every time Lando switches in. (Don't forget Tran has Roar so you can't guarantee that we won't ever come in)

Since even mewtwo agrees that we don't even need those boosts, why not just go SR/CC/SE/filler(SD/Taunt...) ?
And Heracross who looks threatening to this pokemon, is dealt with by Gliscor who can safely Sub and hit anything coming. Everything looks fine here.

Allow me to nuance my statement in case I didn't do it before. What I meant was that Terrakion doesn't need boosts to be threatening, not that he doesn't need boosts. RP/SD is there so that Team 2 can't rely on Heracross to revenge kill every time or on a Hippo/Gliscor/Bro counter pick to always be healthy enough to tank its attacks. Basically, they are there to Terrakion as flexible and hard to counter as possible.

One thing we need to clear first, Landorus will only do this thing if he knows that he can end the whole thing, basically he needs to lower Celebi to half life before.

Which is far more feasible than Terrakion sweeping after Lando has taken 20-30% from SR without recovery?

Let's not forget than who cares how many boosts Terrakion could gather when the opposing team have the solution to take a priority.
So to make it clear, without Substitute, because we know the set and the pokemon, Double Dance Terrakion won't be sweeping any "counterthatpokemon" team so easily when picks are left.

Nothing in the OU metagame is capable of pulling off a clean sweep that can't be countered by Team 1's counter pick. Terrakion is the closest one at pulling this off as the only counters take so much damage that SR + Spikes is already enough to put them in OHKO range. Scizor may be able to Bullet Punch but he can't switch-in (Terrak isn't going to RP if he is still around nor SD if there isn't any defensive answer that can switch into his attacks) and is countered by Skarm.

Late at night, but one last post. The main problem with Team two here is the lack of reliable counters to Scarf Heracross.

Yeah I explained at the beginning of my post that we should wait until Team 2 picks their cleaner before we choose our Heracross/Mamo counter and SR setter. (which there are three solid choices for this role)

Why are we doubling up with fighting types?
Our team was already weak to alakazam

If they choose any revenge killer like Zam then they can't do anything if Terrakion gets a RP up.

and again I'd recommend sub on Terrakion as otherwise it's just not setting up.

I'm still open for more arguments on this change. I'm keeping RP for the time being just cause it doesn't eat up HP but I'd like to hear more about this from the rest of you guys.

They can't really choose scizor and this forces them to run a steel limiting their options to a few steels.

252 Atk Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 134-158 (39.06 - 46.06%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[Reymedy]

I just hate how you answer. First because it makes your post look awfully long, second because taking one sentence away from a text and commentating is not something I would recommend you to do if you want to say/make look something relevant.

I looked at the title of the thread, but please look at the sentence you quoted.
In the thread I see "counter" and in my sentence it is full counter. Which makes a difference to me because it means that going that radical is not something that I found good.
Now, it's not because in the title there is counter than we must pick a counter and you know it very well, so this was quite a convenient way to answer..

About the Gyroball, it does around 45% and the highest roll is 50. So Espeon switches in and take GyroBall, then heal and you keep wasting pps. Free to Screen etc.
I never heard of U-Turn Bronzong or Skarmory by the way.

Then my point is, Scizor and Gliscor have similar cleaning ablities, but can set up for real and wall some opposing pokemons.
In this context, I don't see why Terrakion would be chosen. However I have no worries in your ability to make this vote happen.

About the feasibility and what you said on Landorus, let's just say, that in the end your Terrakion can and will be reveng killed easily, while Landorus won't for now.
If you don't RP Heracross kills you, if you don't SD you can't kill what you're supposed to kill and will be forced out, not even saying that any attempt to set-up can be punished straight by any of the opposing team's pokemons. And if he does not need those boosts, then just leave them and pick something useful like SR instead of locking the team into Skarmory and Bronzong or w/e sitting duck.

By the way, the team 1 can totally go for like.. Infernape who will stop cold Terrakion no matter what happens and roast your steels. He does moreover kill Heatran, Hydreigon, Celebi. So you see, it is totally possible to react to the two picks you propose.
Now if you're about to say that Nape can't switch in, I'd say that I'm more more worried about Terrakion, since you noticed that only Megahorn could be a set-up possibility.

 

[Shurtugal]

Ok Remedy and Melee,

Firstly, when I suggested Balloon, I didn't think that Icicle Crash was pwn'ing as much as he is. Also, I forget Landy-I got Psychic XD.

With that said I just want to actually comment on what you both have been saying.

1. Melee, could you please quote like one big paragraph one user says and comment? I'm not saying your wrong but it is hard for me to read the whole thing. Thanks! :)

2. Remedy, I disagree with "we don't need a Mamoswine counter". However, Melee, you aren't exactly helping yourself when you say, "we need something to deal with Mamoswine since nothing can switch into it" since Terrakion can't exactly come in at all, even with an Air Balloon (as you pointed out). I know you're looking into the next nominee for this issue, but I think we should focus on Mamoswine first and then think into Terrakion (prioritizes better, just saying).

Remedy, as for that Gliscor, it really is Mamoswine weak. Setting up a Substitute before hand is not helping when we need something to come in on any attack and kill it (when Keldeo has already taken an EQ). I would say Terrakion is at least better in the respect that it can check Mamoswine out and threaten to set up if it does on the Revenge Kill switch. If Terrakion had a Balloon, I feel it would have been freer to switch in... until I found out how much that Icicle Crash was doing O_O.

3. With that said, Melee, I really hate the "team 1 can just pick this" logic. Even though they get last pick we still have two Pokemon we can choose and I really don't like this thinking because how can we possible nominate anything when the opposition can just pick something else? Unless this pick is something that the entire team struggles with, I wouldn't keep this thinking in line. Since we have two picks we can still staple the teams weaknesses with our final member, and should be able to nominate other Pokemon if they work. I'm not saying your wrong (since mostly you just mention things that are quite threatening to everything) but I don't want you going overboard since the thinking is not productive.

4. Remedy, Screens Espeon? What? I don't think team 1 would nominate that simply because we have Hydregion and Heatran, which force it to run weak HP Fighting... that won't even hurt.

5. I apologize for comparing Balloon Terrakion to SubSalac. They are very different and was a total mistake on my part.

6. I understand that SR is usually important, but like I mentioned earlier, only Cube is really scared of SR. Heatran can always roar it out anyway so its not like that thing will ever threaten us anyway. I'm questioning its necessity because we have bigger concerns, and while I normally tell everyone that SR is needed on every team, this is counter that pokemon thread, which ignores these laws imo since if the opposition isn't afraid of rocks we are much better of picking a direct counter.


Terrakion:

Okay so I think what I hate about it is the LO recoil, especially since we want to set up on Megahorn / +0 Dragon Claw if we can (and LO doesn't exactly help us take it).

I did some calcs on LO vs. Non-LO:
(note: the calcs go in chronological order so compare and contrast by scrolling down each HIDE)

Life Orb Calcs

1. 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs 248 HP/122 Def Rotom-W: 70.63% - 83.5% (2 hits to KO)

2. 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs 0 HP/0 Def Heracross: 53.49% - 62.79% (2 hits to KO)

3. 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs 0 HP/0 Def Landorus: 72.41% - 85.58% (2 hits to KO)

Non-Life Orb Calcs

1. 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs 248 HP/122 Def Rotom-W: 54.46% - 64.36% (2 hits to KO)

2. 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs 0 HP/0 Def Heracross: 40.86% - 48.5% (3 hits to KO)

2.a 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs 0 HP/0 Def Heracross: 40.86% - 48.5% (2-3 hits to KO) (2HKO'ed after two rounds of SR damage)

3. 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs 0 HP/0 Def Landorus: 55.8% - 65.83% (2 hits to KO)

Calcs in summary:

Life Orb is important to nab 2HKO on Heracross without Rocks, whilst we hit everything else for the 2HKO regardless, but the power drop is noticeable without LO. Furthermore, with RP, and LO, I feel Terrakion is a versatile sweeper. I don't have any objections (other than I hate LO recoil) unless some one a better solution for the item issues (wants balloon to switch into Mamoswine, wants Lum Berry to avoid TWave on Wash, wants Rock Gem to gurantee KO on Landy-I, etc.).

 

[MMII]

I just hate how you answer.

In the thread I see "counter" and in my sentence it is full counter.

About the Gyroball, it does around 45% and the highest roll is 50. So Espeon switches in and take GyroBall, then heal and you keep wasting pps. Free to Screen etc.
I never heard of U-Turn Bronzong or Skarmory by the way.

Then my point is, Scizor and Gliscor have similar cleaning ablities, but can set up for real and wall some opposing pokemons.

About the feasibility and what you said on Landorus, let's just say, that in the end your Terrakion can and will be reveng killed easily, while Landorus won't for now.

And if he does not need those boosts, then just leave them and pick something useful like SR instead of locking the team into Skarmory and Bronzong or w/e sitting duck.

By the way, the team 1 can totally go for like.. Infernape who will stop cold Terrakion no matter what happens and roast your steels. He does moreover kill Heatran, Hydreigon, Celebi. So you see, it is totally possible to react to the two picks you propose.
Now if you're about to say that Nape can't switch in, I'd say that I'm more more worried about Terrakion, since you noticed that only Megahorn could be a set-up possibility.

Yeah, I was trying to separate the various points to respond to each individually but that clearly didn't work out very well post space wise. I'm going to just try to space out your points in your post and reply to them with the same spacing in mine to see if that reduces the post length.

Sorry I misunderstood, however the counters you suggested were very misleading. You suggested Gliscor + Terrak to counter the last two picks, IIRC. The former does successfully counter Heracross however neither counters Mamoswine. Terrak can check him with the faster CC but he doesn't fall under any definition of a counter. I also never used the word "full counter" in any of my posts so I'm not sure why you were trying to nuance the difference. I did mention hard counters but that was for Terrak not for Mamo/Hera.

Well that was just a additional point that if Espy was really that scary (which it isn't cause then nothing stops Terrak if he ever gets a RP) we could use Gyro Ball on Zong and U-Turn on Skarm.

Yes, it is true Terrakion has a harder time setting up. However, it doesn't need SD/RP to threaten the 5/6 of Team 1 with a OHKO. (it needs them for late game cleaning and for whatever pick is chosen as number 6) These boosts may require prediction (though not always thanks to Choice Megahorn) the OP has to have near perfect prediction to avoid a nasty position. The player can either A) switch directly to the Terrak counter to force it out or B) stay in to hit it as it sets up. If team 1 pulls off the former then they successfully dealt with the threat for the time being, if they predict the later then they KO'd Terrakion. However, if they mispredict with option A and Terrakion boosted their counter risks a OHKO (if it didn't it would be pointless to boost) and if they mispredict option B then they just threw one of their carefully selected 6 Pokemon.

I'm not seeing your logic, Heracross revenges Terrak as Keldeo revenges Landorus. If they don't RP on a predicted switch (Lando doesn't have free set-up on anything on Team 2 either) then they aren't fast enough to beat the Scarfmon. (and the feasibility was comparing the ease with which Terrak gets past its checks/counters vs Lando who has to ask for a lot to get his sweep off)

He doesn't need the boosts to begin OHKOing the 5 current selections for Team 1, however it needs them if it plans on cleaning late game or wall breaking the counter chosen for the 6th slot of Team 1.

Nape can't switch-in. I don't know why you disregard that disadvantage as it means it has to scrap a mon every time Terrak comes in to force it out. (which Team 1 is already doing every time Hydreigon shows up)

Nape does bring up a good point for Sub over RP as it means even priority can't revenge Terrak. (although LO IF Mach Punch doesn't OHKO anyways) I like the idea but the fact that it eats up his HP concerns me as it could potentially cut a sweep short as Terrak won't have enough HP for LO recoil. Although, it really does benefit from the hard choice Terrak forces on the other team and I'm starting to lean more towards it. I think I'll edit it in unless anybody has any reasons for it being kept with RP they wish to share.

Good post.

1. Will do, I was actually trying that as I was typing your post.

2. I explained at the beginning of my Terrak submission why I was for deciding the cleaner for Team 2 first. Basically, no matter who the is chosen we will still have only three answers to Mamoswine.(barring if we pick a cleaner like Gliscor that beats Heracross but that only extends to stuff like Deo-D or Mew that don't really bring anything notable and are outclassed by the other three due to typing.)

3. Basically, what Team 2 lacks ATM is a cleaner and a SR setter with a Mamo/Hera answers mixed in their somewhere. Because of this, we have no choice but to chose from Forry, Skarm, or Zong as we there aren't any cleaners that counter Mamo (Gyarados is revenge killed by Hera even after a boost) so then we can only have that counter be our SR setter. So we can't really pick two mons to leave Team 1 with a "pick your poison" situation. (If you have an example where I am wrong, please share though) Therefor we need to pick a cleaner that is effective against the current members of Team 1 (which everybody accomplished) while being as hard to counter as possible (see Crackin'skulls quote in the first post). This is what I feel Terrakion is the only to have claim to as he lacks hard counters. (unlike, sadly, the other suggestions)

5. No need to apologize. I have a feeling that my posts are coming off as aggressive when it is far from my intentions. (with the exception of some of my responses to Remedy where I let myself be a bit sarcastic and condescending) If you have any suggestions of ways I can fix this please share. (More smilies? lol)

6. SR is important for much more than just typing. It is a easy to set up hazard that hurts everybody (some more than others) that is important as it puts a drawback on switching. Seeing as it is a CtP project SR is doubly important as there will be a lot of switching between the counters until one is eventually softened up enough to open a hole in the defensive synergy. SR helps significantly with this so it is still a must have.

Calcs: Don't forget that Stone Edge is neutral against Heracross so Terrakion doesn't need a boost to OHKO. Cube is also using DTail not DClaw so there isn't any setting up on that. I also hate LO recoil as well but it's a must as your calcs showed.

 

[Shurtugal]

I think RP isn't hard to set up and with LO it can get up an easy sweep. It seems rather hard to find any room to Sub with Terrak imo, we only set up on one member, and our CC without LO won't be 2HKO'ing Heracross so it can come in and break sub and force us out.