Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Team 2 won!]

[futuresuperstar]

You keep neglecting the fact that Stealth Rock won't be up the first time Gyarados switches in. Understand this. Gyarados will take NO DAMAGE the first time he switches in, because he will switch into Mamoswine the first time he comes out.

We don't need Earthquake. You want to switch your Magnezone in to Waterfall or Substitute, go for it, but understand that you did not achieve any Stealth Rock damage the first time that it happened.

 

[MMII]

Then he gets two switch ins instead of one. That's not going to be enough for him to wreck enough damage to warrant not running SR on Team 2.

 

[Reymedy]

"Nope, I was saying that without a Fire STAB Scizor can switch in and KO Volcarona. (Which is true check out my calcs)"

Yea, well.. why do I bother writting long comments, who even read them........

Scizor needs to be healthy to do that and Volcarona needs to be at +0 when he switches in.
This situation, is like, pretty unlikely. And if it does happen, I switch to something else and force you out. I'll try to get this +1 later and crush you at this moment because anyway, you can't SR.

 

[futuresuperstar]

Then he gets two switch ins instead of one. That's not going to be enough for him to wreck enough damage to warrant not running SR on Team 2.

I hardly think 2 switch-ins is all he'll get. Intimidate is invaluable and Gyarados can OHKO, 2HKO, or cripple every switch-in that Team 1 has, which is absurd considering the diversity of their team and number of Pokemon.

 

[TyranitarAbuser]

Just something to note. If you take the specially defensive Jirachi set on the site and shift the EVs from SpD into Def while changing the nature to Impish, Jirachi is only 3HKO by Heracross and has a high chance of surviving Mamo's EQ.

 

[MMII]

Yea, well.. why do I bother writting long comments, who even read them........

Scizor can switch in on a QD as a +1 HP Ground hits under 50%. This means he can safely SD to put Volca in KO range. Scizor will be healthy enough to do this as the only time SR won't be on the field is very early game. Once rocks are up Volca is deadweight.

I hardly think 2 switch-ins is all he'll get. Intimidate is invaluable and Gyarados can OHKO, 2HKO, or cripple every switch-in that Team 1 has, which is absurd considering the diversity of their team and number of Pokemon.

That's the thing, Gyara still loses 25% once SR is up plus another 25% switching in on Hera (he loses around 30%ish IIRC coming in on Mamo) plus another 25% subbing. In the end he loses over half his health. Gyarados is a good treat, yeah, but not good enough to warrant the lack of SR which super important in a game where everybody cycles around their counters.

Just something to note. If you take the specially defensive Jirachi set on the site and shift the EVs from SpD into Def while changing the nature to Impish, Jirachi is only 3HKO by Heracross and has a high chance of surviving Mamo's EQ.

Yeah, but Rachi doesn't counter Mamo and is trapped by Zone.

 

[TyranitarAbuser]

This is frustrating. Hera and Mamo cover each other's threats very well. Good walls seem to be trapped by Zone. How about Shuckle? (jk,jk)

 

[Reymedy]

Scizor can switch in on a QD as a +1 HP Ground hits under 50%. This means he can safely SD to put Volca in KO range. Scizor will be healthy enough to do this as the only time SR won't be on the field is very early game. Once rocks are up Volca is deadweight.

That's the thing, Gyara still loses 25% once SR is up plus another 25% switching in on Hera (he loses around 30%ish IIRC coming in on Mamo) plus another 25% subbing. In the end he loses over half his health. Gyarados is a good treat, yeah, but not good enough to warrant the lack of SR which super important in a game where everybody cycles around their counters.


Yeah, but Rachi doesn't counter Mamo and is trapped by Zone.

It is wrong :

252SpAtk +1 Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Hidden Power (Ground) vs 88HP/0SpDef Light Metal Scizor (Neutral): 51% - 60% (155 - 183 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

SR and he's dead eveb with two lowest rolls ever, so is the rest of the team.
And even, 51 is the minimum damage, if he hits 56+ two times (not far from average damages), Volcarona does not even need damages.
And also, if I feel like, I can put Life Orb.
So it's pretty useless to count on weak answers like that, because a Gem for instance can totally ruin your strategy.

 

[MMII]

Oops, I saw spd and read SpDef lol. Anyways, I'm going to change my submission to double hazards shed shell Skarm as it counters the two picks while setting up SR+Spikes and switching out of Zone. (and it beats that Volca set)

 

[G-Von]

Volcarona is still too big a liability without a Rapid Spinner. Yes, it is a great pokemon and can do big things against Team 2, but with the maximum amount of switch ins being 2 and with no way of keeping hazards off the field, I personally wouldn't consider it a major threat to be picked as Team 1's last pokemon.

 

[Reymedy]

Oops, I saw spd and read SpDef lol. Anyways, I'm going to change my submission to double hazards shed shell Skarm as it counters the two picks while setting up SR+Spikes and switching out of Zone. (and it beats that Volca set)

In fact, it's even worse. But at the moment, I'm not gonna reveal what I got on my mind and let everybody chose the set they want :>
I'll reveal it anyway after this round.

Anyway, I was wondering, and I'll change my Swampert choice for that :

Infernape @ Air Balloon
Trait : Blaze
228 Atk / 144 SpA / 136 Spe
Naughty Nature
- OverHeat
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Stealth Rock

I'm a bit lazy to explain everything because I already did.
But, Infernape will pressure Rotom-W big time and enable Keldeo to rampage through the enemy team once Rotom-W is down.

Moreover, this is at the moment the only pick allowing us to not be totally swept by a Volcarona version (Skarmory won't work at all, it's worse than Deoxys-D in fact).

It does give us an access to Stealth Rock, and it's not a set-up fodder for anything.

Now, let's see the offensive pressure Infernape puts on the ennemy team :

Landorus is the tricky part, he CAN NOT switch in on Nape, but can take a hit and RP for the kill. However, given the presence of Scizor, it would still mean that Landorus won't sweep anybody (and we could still switch safely to Celebi).
144SpAtk Iron Fist Infernape (Neutral) Overheat vs 64HP/0SpDef Leftovers Landorus (Neutral): 64% - 76% (216 - 255 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
224Atk Iron Fist Infernape (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 64HP/0Def Leftovers Landorus (Neutral): 32% - 38% (110 - 130 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
Now in the KO range of OverHeat
224Atk Iron Fist Infernape (+Atk) Close Combat vs 64HP/0Def Leftovers Landorus (Neutral): 29% - 34% (99 - 117 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
Also in the KO range of OverHeat, meaning that Landorus CANT switch on Infernape attacks because he's outsped and killed right after.
144SpAtk Blaze Infernape (Neutral) Overheat vs 64HP/0SpDef Leftovers Landorus (Neutral): 96% - 113% (322 - 381 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 77% chance to OHKO.
Landorus 2HKO / Put in the KO range of Scizor / Killed if Blaze is on

228Atk Iron Fist Infernape (+Atk) Close Combat vs 252HP/64Def Leftovers Kyurem Black (Neutral): 74% - 88% (338 - 402 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Kyurem-B killed after SR

228Atk Iron Fist Infernape (+Atk) Close Combat vs 4HP/0Def Leftovers Thick Fat Mamoswine (Neutral): 120% - 142% (438 - 516 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
OHKO Mamoswine

In return, we can switch on an Earthquake, or an Ice attack (I don't see Mamoswine using Icycle Crash recklessly but let's assume so) :
252Atk Life Orb Mamoswine (+Atk) Ice Shard vs 0HP/0Def Leftovers Infernape (Neutral): 21% - 24% (62 - 73 HP). Guaranteed 5HKO.
OR
252Atk Life Orb Mamoswine (+Atk) Icicle Crash vs 0HP/0Def Infernape (Neutral): 45% - 53% (132 - 156 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 10% chance to 2HKO. (WORST CASE SCENARIO)

Now what about Heracross :
252Atk Heracross (Neutral) Megahorn vs 0HP/0Def Leftovers Infernape (Neutral): 21% - 25% (63 - 74 HP). Guaranteed 5HKO.
OR
252Atk Heracross (Neutral) Stone Edge vs 0HP/0Def Leftovers Infernape (Neutral): 48% - 56% (141 - 166 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 12% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.
OR
252Atk Heracross (Neutral) Night Slash vs 0HP/0Def Leftovers Infernape (Neutral): 16% - 19% (49 - 58 HP). Guaranteed 6HKO.
AND
252Atk Heracross (Neutral) Close Combat vs 0HP/0Def Leftovers Infernape (Neutral): 86% - 101% (253 - 298 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 11% chance to OHKO. (WORST CASE SCENARIO)

144SpAtk Iron Fist Infernape (Neutral) Overheat vs 64HP/0SpDef Leftovers Heracross (Neutral): 117% - 138% (372 - 440 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
OHKO Heracross

252Atk Iron Fist Infernape (+Atk) Close Combat vs 252HP/112Def Leftovers Levitate Rotom (Neutral): 51% - 61% (157 - 186 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Rotom-W (2HKO'd) is the only thing coming near to a check, and gets easily 2HKO'd leaving an highway for Keldeo.




Obviously, they won't let us rampage through their team so easily and I see at the moment few possible answers the best ones being Gyarados and Starmie.
Starmie is still, highly pressuered, so it willl be for sure a defensive version with 2 offensive slots. This version has no way to stop Scizor from rampaging bar a Scald burn.
Moreover Celebi already counters the Starmie totally.

On the other hand, Gyarados, while taking Scizor, Nape and Keldeo's attacks decently won't be able to take all their hits.
Stone Edge being really threatening for the bulky Gyarados (even at -1) :
228Atk -1 Iron Fist Infernape (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252HP/0Def Gyarados (Neutral): 41% - 49% (164 - 194 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

I could go for Thunderpunch to solve totally this case but a HP Water Volcarona could still clean the team after.
Anyway, Gyarados taking so much from SR without any solution to recover bar Rest and Leftovers, I don't see him as a massiv threat. And he can't be bulky enough on both sides (Physical/Special) to face our sweepers alone.

Thanks to Clubbing, I decided finally to change and take OverHeat over HP Ice. Landorus will be put in the KO range for Bullet Punch.
And of course, it does also fix Mewtwo worries because even a max SpDef Skar is OHKO'd (when Sturdy not on obviously).

 

[MMII]

Concerning Heracross, Infernape has a difficult time switching in as it has a 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock with Close Combat which, seeing as Celebii is the only one who he would want to use Megahorn on, you should probably assume that is the attack he is using. (also, Heracross isn't their win condition it's their revenge killer)

Mamoswine is still going to be annoying even with Ape around. All it takes is one Icicle Crash as the monkey comes in and the next time he tries he is going to be KO'd by a second Icicle Crash (don't even need SR thanks to Ice Shard)

Also, you're completely ignoring the possibility of a Skarmory counterpick who easily counters Ape and Scizor while providing Spikes support. (Yeah, there are multiple viable counters to Scizor. Magnezone was just the one that really jumped out at me due to his ability which is why I mentioned him a lot)

(I'm completely missing how Volca sweeps past Skarm and the rest of the team. It needs a Fire STAB to beat Skarm, HP Ground to beat Heatran, Bug Buzz to cream Hydreigon and Giga Drain to stay in against Keldeo. If it lacks any of these moves then it is going to be forced out by something which is where SR is really going to bite.)

 

[Reymedy]

Concerning Heracross, Infernape has a difficult time switching in as it has a 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock with Close Combat which, seeing as Celebii is the only one who he would want to use Megahorn on, you should probably assume that is the attack he is using. (also, Heracross isn't their win condition it's their revenge killer)

Mamoswine is still going to be annoying even with Ape around. All it takes is one Icicle Crash as the monkey comes in and the next time he tries he is going to be KO'd by a second Icicle Crash (don't even need SR thanks to Ice Shard)

Also, you're completely ignored the possibility of a Skarmory counterpick who easily counters Ape and Scizor while providing Spikes support. (Yeah, there are multiple viable counters to Scizor. Magnezone was just the one that really jumped out at me due to his ability which is why I mentioned him a lot)

(I'm completely missing how Volca sweeps past Skarm and the rest of the team. It needs a Fire STAB to beat Skarm, HP Ground to beat Heatran, Bug Buzz to cream Hydreigon and Giga Drain to stay in against Keldeo. If it lacks any of these moves then it is going to be forced out by something which is where SR is really going to bite.)

I'm not really worried about Mamoswine catching two times Nape with Icicle Crash when we know that Mamoswine can almost not switch in and have to set SR.
For Heracross, Infernape does not really have to switch in at all cost. I was just pointing out that 3/4 of Heracross's attacks are not threatening Infernape enough. It's totally fine for an offensive pokemon against a locked one.
For Skarmory, if they do so, Keldeo crushes the team so I take this risk, Infernape does his job by opening Keldeo's way and putting SR. Not even talking about Hydreigon.

Yes, you're missing something for Volcarona, but this time, I'm not gonna leak it, so I can use it next round. If you're curious, I will anyway reveal it ;)

 

[ClubbingSealCub]

Really dumb question - what is Stone Edge doing for Infernape there? Killing Volcarona? Volcarona gets KOed by Flare Blitz after SR anyway, and with it it can OHKO Heracross too.

 

[Reymedy]

Really dumb question - what is Stone Edge doing for Infernape there? Killing Volcarona? Volcarona gets KOed by Flare Blitz after SR anyway, and with it it can OHKO Heracross too.

It is some kind of "neutral solution", because beside hitting decently Heracross, killing Volcarona it does also hit Gyarados for some crucial damages, even at -1.

Else, the team 1 can take Gyarados, and be fine against Keldeo, wall badly Infernape, Heatran, Scizor etc.
Moreover, with Bounce/Waterfall, the coverage would be really good and Gyarados would have many possibilities to set-up a DD or more.

In fact, I'm more wondering if I could not toss OverHeat over Hidden Power Ice, and I think I'll do that. It does not OHKO Landorus, but, it puts him in the KO range of Bullet Punch (I always forget to count Scizor in the team).

So no, not a dumb question <.< it may be me too afraid of Gyarados, but I'll put Overheat on Hidden Power Ice (I don't like Flare Blitz because of the recoil to be honest, max Def Skarmory could Roost stall the recoil and losing some health would mean being really more exposed for Nape to Heracross/Mamo, I believe that just the threat of OverHeat will discourage Skarmory)

 

[MMII]

Ape is pretty much trapped between Flare Blitz and Stone Edge and the latter leaves him open an solid GDos counter pick while the latter means Skarm is going to screw over his attempts to weaken Rotom. I'd prefer the latter as GDos can at least be worn down with SR. Yep Overheat works. (Although it still means that Tentacruel will be an annoying counter pick.) Also change his nature to one that drops one of his defenses as Ape is too fragile for the difference to matter. (The more power to Overheat the harder he'll be to counter)

(Lol, HP Water Volca trying to sweep early game. He's going to need the team softened up a bit which means he's going to be coming in on SR and revenge killed by Keldeo.)

 

[futuresuperstar]

"Moreover, this is at the moment the only pick allowing us to not be totally swept by a Volcarona version (Skarmory won't work at all, it's worse than Deoxys-D in fact)."

The Gyarados I proposed counters every Volcarana except one with HP Electric.

 

[blitzlefan]

Yes, Gyarados works very well, but it lacks STEALTH ROCK. This is crucial. Team 2 should NOT have left choosing a Stealth-Rock user for its very last slot, but since it has, very many would-have-been-viable picks are no longer viable. IMO, it's really just down to Shed Shell Skarmory (which lacks offensive presence) vs. Infernape (frail and will probably die very quickly after setting SR).

 

[Reymedy]

Ape is pretty much trapped between Flare Blitz and Stone Edge and the latter leaves him open an solid GDos counter pick while the latter means Skarm is going to screw over his attempts to weaken Rotom. I'd prefer the latter as GDos can at least be worn down with SR. Yep Overheat works. (Although it still means that Tentacruel will be an annoying counter pick.) Also change his nature to one that drops one of his defenses as Ape is too fragile for the difference to matter. (The more power to Overheat the harder he'll be to counter)

(Lol, HP Water Volca trying to sweep early game. He's going to need the team softened up a bit which means he's going to be coming in on SR and revenge killed by Keldeo.)

Yes, thank you for that. I don't even know why I put Adamant. Obviously Naughty. (and I was not thinking about HP Water Volcarona :o)

For Gyarados, it means no SR and weakness to SR. By they way they got Rotom-W so you pretty much counter yourself here. With Substitute, weakness to SR and no recovery bar leftovers, I don't see Gyarados doing anything.
Moreover, they have a pick left and I don't think that Gyarados threaten them so much.

 

[MMII]

The idea behind waiting to pick hazards was so that the mon selected for it would have many opportunities to do so. This is because hazards are very important in this project as they quickly wear down counters due to the massive cycling each player does bringing their counters into the counters of their counters. This was actually fairly successful as Skarm, for example, can very easily set up hazards against 3-4 members of the opposing team. The fact that it lacks an offensive presence is minor as its purpose is to support not sweep. This support actually makes it more difficult for Team 1 to counter. Do they counter the win condition that was just picked and ignore hazards? Do they grab a spinner to blow them away and have a less effective counter to the sweeper? (Mind you, if one of the other offensive threats were picked Team 1 wouldn't even have the option of a spinner that counters the win condition.)


(Ah well, it was mentioned in your analysis I'm just going to have to contain my curiosity. We'll end up most likely disagreeing on whether or not that set can sweep anyways. :P)

 

[dragontamer74pe]

"Moreover, this is at the moment the only pick allowing us to not be totally swept by a Volcarona version (Skarmory won't work at all, it's worse than Deoxys-D in fact)."

The Gyarados I proposed counters every Volcarana except one with HP Electric.

Skarmory can check volcarona with no stealth rock on team 2's side. Also we cant really use volcarona's huge hazard weakness against it. If we'd have chosen hazards earlier then this would've been a good pick but not really atm.
Melee Mewtwo kinda ninjad me as I was gonna change my skarms item to a shed shell :c

 

[Hyperactivity]

Not too sure about my pick, but i'll give it a try.

Cobalion @ Air Balloon
Trait: Justified
4 Hp / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
-Stealth Rock
-Stone Edge
-Close Combat
-Sword Dance


Cobalion sets up stealth rock, SEs the threatening volcarona, counters Mamoswine (and Ohko's back)and can switch into 3/4 of Heracross's moves. Now, before you say another steel will make us magnezone weak, you first should take a look at this calc.

252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 270-320 (95.74 - 113.47%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO
while scarf magnezone, the only variant that outspeeds cobalion, deals 74.3% max.

Admittedly, this doesn't have much over Infernape besides bulk+resistances. However Infernape can't even switch into Icicle Crash without being 2hko'd by Icicle Crash+Stealth Rock.

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 133-156 (45.39 - 53.24%) -- 30.47% chance to 2HKO

Some other calcs on how cobalion fares against the rest of the team

252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Kyurem: 312-368 (68.72 - 81.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Rotom-W: 130-154 (42.9 - 50.82%) -- 55.86% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Cobalion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 108-128 (35.88 - 42.52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(I'm not going to post landorus because cobalion has no business staying in on it)

 

[Hyperactivity]

Just noticed but at the moment, scarf terrakion with x-scissor can murder out team.

Edit:Team 1 (not out team)
Edit (again): Team 2 (not team 1)

 

[MMII]

Drop Magnet Rise, either you are going to come in safely on Mamo's Ice STAB and KO with CC or you are going to be murdered switching into the EQ.

 

[TyranitarAbuser]

Just curious, or maybe I don't get it, but how does Skarm check Volca