BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[RabidChipmunk]

So I know everyone is still on Tornadus-T getting banned, but I thought for a second I'd point out something I saw on Bulbapedia.

http://bulbanews.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Kanto_starters_Wi-Fi_event_announced_for_Korea

So apparently, the Kanto starters are being released in Korea, and Bulbasaur will be released with the moves False Swipe, Block, Weather Ball, and Frenzy Plant.

Anyone else intrigued by Weather Ball? There's no word on whether or not the starter-mons will have their Dream World abilities, although I don't know why they wouldn't. So now we can run Venusaur with Weather Ball instead of HP Fire? What new possibilities will this open? Will there be any legality issues we need to consider (it's still legal with Giga Drain!)?

 

[Halcyon.]

So I know everyone is still on Tornadus-T getting banned, but I thought for a second I'd point out something I saw on Bulbapedia.

http://bulbanews.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Kanto_starters_Wi-Fi_event_announced_for_Korea

So apparently, the Kanto starters are being released in Korea, and Bulbasaur will be released with the moves False Swipe, Block, Weather Ball, and Frenzy Plant.

Anyone else intrigued by Weather Ball? There's no word on whether or not the starter-mons will have their Dream World abilities, although I don't know why they wouldn't. So now we can run Venusaur with Weather Ball instead of HP Fire? What new possibilities will this open? Will there be any legality issues we need to consider (it's still legal with Giga Drain!)?

The last time they released him with Weather Ball, he could only come with Overgrow. Classic Troll Freak. It would be awesome if he got Weather Ball and Chlorophyll, but somehow I just know they won't give it to us.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Imagine if they released this with Weather Ball. Giga Drain + Weather Ball + Hidden Power Ice or Fighting!!! However you could still run Sludge Bomb for the pretty good neutral coverage that it has alongside Grass and Fire attacks.

 

[AffirmativeAction]

The last time they released him with Weather Ball, he could only come with Overgrow. Classic Troll Freak. It would be awesome if he got Weather Ball and Chlorophyll, but somehow I just know they won't give it to us.

Good. Venusaur is already irritating enough under the sun.

 

[gengarsnemisis]

Seriously... Venusaur doesn't need a buff, hes already to much for most weatherless teams to handle as is.

 

[UltiMario]

If you guys want to use that so bad then just use Victreebel.

Yeah, he's a little frailer and negligibly slower. But like seriously, most underused good Sun sweeper in the game.

 

[Gimmick]

One thing to note about Weather Ball is that it makes Venusaur (if it gets it via event with Chlorophyll)/Victreebel a bit more manageable for other weather teams. In rain, Ferrothorn and Politoed can essentially wall its whole set. Abomasnow can switch into it pretty safely, only fearing Sludge Bomb (which is probably going to be replaced with HP Ice). Steel types on a Sand team have absolutely nothing to worry about, since they will then resist/be immune to everything Venusaur has. This is pretty situational, but HP Fire Venusaur is much more difficult to play around than (possible) Weather Ball variants.

Also, I feel like they actually will be released with their Dream World Abilities since the games have hinted toward weather-based strategies ever since abilities were introduced. In-game trainers often had Swift Swimming Pokemon when it was raining while some had Chlorophyll mons when it was Sunny. There are also ingame trainers that explain how SolarBeam doesn't need charging in Sun and how Swift Swim Pokemon double their Speed in rain. The creators were obviously interested in weather conditions. Castform and Weather Ball were introduced during this time as well, possibly hinting toward more applications. It seems odd to me that they decided Chlorophyll Venusaur wouldn't have access to Weather Ball when they seemed to show increasing interest. So this might be a way to finally get it out there. It also seems odd that Squirtle and Charmander are getting STABs or useless moves that don't matter, so to speak, while Bulbasaur gets something totally out of the ordinary that benefits with its DW ability. It seems like a

prediction, but I can see it happening.

 

[Schpoonman]

Politoed is not walling Venusaur. Period. Seriously who the hell uses SolarBeam on a set that doesn't also carry Sunny Day?

You're talking about Venusaur trying to sweep while he doesn't have weather on his side. Do I need to clarify why this is a moot point?

 

[Gimmick]

I said the combination of Politoed and Ferrothorn walls Venusaur with Weather Ball. For example, with correct prediction, a person can get Politoed in on a Weather Ball (which becomes Water) from a Ferrothorn if Sun was up. They can easily just go back to Ferrothorn to wall the rest of its set, which would consist of either Sludge Bomb or HP Ice along with Giga Drain. With HP Fire, Venusaur still deals a good chunk Ferrothorn even in rain. Therefore, Politoed + Ferrothorn can shut down said Venusaur, albeit with some risky playing--Venusaur may Giga Drain on the Politoed switch.

And my whole point was that Weather Ball Venusaur loses its potential to sweep/blow holes when it doesn't have Sun on its side. That's one of the reasons to use HP Fire over Weather Ball. Since rain and sand are more common than sun, it's a valid point imo. Other weathers cripple Weather Ball Venusaur's coverage.

I'm not saying HP Fire is better. It's simply more consistent. Having a stronger Fire STAB would be awesome, but it requires that you win the weather war no matter what or else Venusaur is stuck being walled by Steels (excluding Jirachi in rain).

I apologize if I did not make myself clear enough to you.

 

[typon77]

Victreebel is actually surprisingly effective on sun. It takes hits like a wet paper towel, but its not as bad as some of the wetter paper towels. I mean its not guaranteed to be OHKO'd by Scizor's Bullet Punch :P

However, changing the subject a little, I think that Special Landorus is the single best pokemon in the current metagame. Teams without a hard counter (i.e. Celebi or Lati@s) are laughably easy to wear down with teammates then sweep late game after a Rock Polish. I've been using Landorus in combination with Dragon Spam, and it works wonderfully, as Landorus can take out most steel types easily with Earth Power and Focus Blast, and Celebi takes a ton from CB Outrages. Landorus is just so powerful that its coverage issues dont even matter. Any offensive pokemon with lower bulk than Keldeo (basically every offensive pokemon) gets OHKO'd by Earth Power on a neutral hit. Despite Rain being everywhere, Landorus is still amazing. You should never be switching it in on water moves in the first place, and Landorus deals a ton of damage to everything on rain. The only currently common Earth Power resists on rain teams are Rotom-W, Thundurus-T, and any Flying/Levitating Dragon types, as well as the obligatory Celebi.

tl;dr: Landorus kills everything

 

[Schpoonman]

Venusaur already loses its potential to sweep (it's not a wall-breaker anyway) if sun isn't on its side. It does not have the stats, typing, or movepool to be a weather-independent sweeper. It relies on Chlorophyll and sun-augmented Growth, period.

I understand that you might want HP Fire to hit Ferrothorn no matter the weather, but if it's switching in on you outside of sun (I can't believe you are actually making scenarios where you do not immediately switch Venusaur out when you just lost your weather) anything you do is a symbolic gesture above all else (barring something stupid like you already being at +4).

 

[nygerman]

Is Venusaurus going to be banned now?

It seems like things are getting banned left and right. I just wonder how Dragonite avoided being banned. I find Dragonite just as powerful as Genesect and Tornadus in his ability.

 

[Sciztar]

I I just wonder how Dragonite avoided being banned. I find Dragonite just as powerful as Genesect and Tornadus in his ability.

The reason why it's not going to be ban is because of Mamoswine, Stealth Rock, and faster Dragon types. While its Multiscale gave it a better chance to sponge attacks and get a Dragon Dance up, it's still weak to Stealth Rock which is still one the most popular entry hazard move. With Stealth Rock seen on almost every team its Multiscale is constantly broken when switching in. Dragonite needs a rapid spinner to get rid of Stealth Rocks so it can freely switch in and out.

 

[Raikaria]

I think if we seriously are talking about suspecting any other pokemon due to rain [Thunderus-T is being batted around], it's at the point where we should just suspect Rain.

We've already banned Manaphy, Tornadus-T, Swift Swim + Drizzle, Thunderus [His Thunder set enabling 2HKO's like Sp.Def Jirachi was a massive contribution] and, to some extent, Genesect [Only weakness being cut in half, but he may have been broken even in a rainless environment], because of rain. That's 4 pokemon bans and a ban on a combination of abilities, which really shouldn't have happened, to keep Drizzle...

On the other topic, Victreebel doesn't work, not in OU. Simply because it is more frail, it doesn't get the chance to use Growth like Venusaur can. It NEEDS to land a Sleep Powder to do so, giving it only two moveslots, one of which is taken up by Grass, hardly the best sweeping type.

 

[HabibsHotDogs]

I'd just like to bring up the topic of psychic's in OU, as it most definitely fits here and not in the weather thread. Psychic types are very dominant in OU and yet they are criticised for having significant weaknesses (bug and dark -> Read: U-turn and pursuit) despite the fact that psychics have been one of the most well treated types by GF right after dragon and water types.

Despite being weak to two common utility & trapping moves respectively, there are 9 psychics in OU with quite a number on the verge of OU and/or being rather viable in OU (Slowbro, Xatu, Sigilyph (far too underrated as a 90% burn inducer), Mew, Azelf, Cresselia). A total of 7 psychics in OU are 100 base speed or higher and perhaps because of all this, we don't see calm mind Keldeo and swords dance Terrakion as often as we'd usually expect.

Yet despite all the perks psychic types carry (primarily unparalleled abilities and speed/special attack) they are still being bashed for being pursuit weak!?!

Let's consider for a moment the state of the metagame, rain is dominating OU, weather is everywhere, and dragons are stronger than ever before with most OU dragons having 120+ STAB and 130+ in their dominant base offensive stat. Scizor is #1 and Tyranitar isn't far behind... Yet, despite all this, despite psychics not necessarily benefitting from or countering particular weathers (Jirachi is an exception and celebi/latias will wall a multitude of threats regardless of weather ), they are dominating OU. How then are these "major" setbacks of being pursuit weak/Uturn weak and of course having "low powered, commonly resisted stab" by OU standards not stopping psychic from being OU.

Dark has no high powered STAB and is U turn/fighting weak -> only 2 OU dark types, why? because GF hasn't given dark types any compelling stat+ability combos, its that simple!

I also agree with RaiKaria above about suspecting rain. Of all the weather inducing moves, rain dance is the most viable and it's not likely sun will become impossible to stop with +2 speed "abusers", if, in the case that it does, simply banning Venusaur/Politoed/Excadrill/Blaziken could have been the only bans that we needed! Of course this is just a guess by smogon tiering standards, but it is a valid hypothesis to make.

 

[Schpoonman]

Genesect wasn't banned because of rain. Genesect was banned because if he wasn't Scarfed, which was more immediately apparent, half your team was gone by the time you figured its set out and it had weakened the rest to barely hanging on. It was too good. Getting Thunder > Thunderbolt and reducing his Fire weakness was just gravy that a lot of Pokémon share.

But yes, I'm absolutely for suspecting Drizzle. First, Thundurus-T is simple enough to deal with anyway. If he uses Nasty Plot, he's too slow. If he uses Agility, he's a little more threatening but still manageable because he's lacking enough power to sweep healthy teams unless they just weren't prepared. If he's a double booster, he's missing too much coverage. Expert Belt is scary because then you screw up when you assume Scarf and lose something valuable, but again, too slow. He's dangerous, but so is half the tier.

Second, like you said, in the name of "diversity" we've kept the single-most powerful Ability in the game and have slowly tried to cripple it to no avail. When we removed Excadrill Sand Offense immediately took a huge hit. We still had Sand Force Landorus (whose EQ is just BARELY weaker than Thundurus-T's Thunder, by the way), but it wasn't anywhere near the same. We haven't suspected Venusaur or any of the other Chlorophyll sweepers who carry Growth and/or Sleep Powder. In fact, we have had ONE purely weather-based ban outside of rain, Excadrill, and it immediately made Sand Offense less viable because it lost its undisputed best sweeper. So why did we get rid of Drizzle Swim and three of Rain's most potent sweepers if we're STILL struggling to hold rain back?

We need to stop treating symptoms and start treating the disease.

 

[cocoon]

The thing about rain, is that the OU council has obviously dug themselves a hole too deep to salvage. Delete this post if you want, I'm stating what's obvious to anyone who has a brain. Rain affects EVERYTHING, and if rain is banned a lot of other bans will soon follow(sun being the most obvious while sand being plausible as well). It will just through the metagame off balance and even after the whole weather crisis is salvaged, we're likely to face an issue with dragon spam and possibly reboot kyurem-b to ubers. That's not even mentioning all the analyses that need to be seriously updated after the bans take place. In short, we're on crunch time, and right now the best thing to do is to weaken rain as much as possible without making any tremendous changes that will require gen 5 to start from scratch. Even now, we only have 8 months left, that's enough time for 1 or two more suspect tests. Right now, all we can do is try and make the most out of gen 5 and try not to repeat the same mistakes in gen 6(I.E. ban the effector, which is weather for gen 5). The one thing that really needs to be examined is the banning process. There needs to be a concrete basis, otherwise, we will end up with a shit metagame like gen 5 ou, regardless of who's voting.

 

[Taylor]

I'm not trying to demean the suspect test system or anyone's personal opinion on rain in the metagame, but for us to test weather after coming this far since BW's official release (and with the recent announcement of Gen 6), is just a little too late. Yes, Politoed is amazingly powerful but cannot retain its bulk if using a more offensively orientated moveset, so for example it then becomes noticeably vulnerable to Tyranitar's Pursuit.

Cocoon, you could say Landorus affects everything. You can't be certain its the Rock Polish or Substitute + 3 attacks Landorus. The two main checks to its special set (Celebi/Latias) can suffer from U-turn, and the physical checks are OHKOed by its special set. If used sensibly, you only need one turn to set up Substitute/Rock Polish and you're guaranteed to KO something. The same could also be said for Sand Stream in that it affects everything.

Speaking of which, Sand may have struggled for a brief glimpse in OU after Excadrill was banned, but soon recaptured its glory with the infamous "VolTurn" strategy which fashioned the same six Pokemon on a daily basis.

We don't ban things in an attempt to nerf a strategy completely, however we do try to dwindle and calm its widespread impact said "suspect" has on the metagame as a whole.

 

[nyttyn]

I'm not trying to demean the suspect test system or anyone's personal opinion on rain in the metagame, but for us to test weather after coming this far since BW's official release (and with the recent announcement of Gen 6), is just a little too late. Yes, Politoed is amazingly powerful but cannot retain its bulk if using a more offensively orientated moveset, so for example it then becomes noticeably vulnerable to Tyranitar's Pursuit.

And you know what? It shouldnt've come this far. There were numerous, numerous times that weather went over the line. And time after time again, the Council chose to work around the infection, instead treating the symptoms. It's just, really, when something such a big gamechanger, it just seems like something's wrong with the suspect system when we brush things aside people have been clamoring to test because they're too big to just jump into, and then by the time we could theoretically get started on testing them we're "too far into BW."

Yeah, it's pretty much a dead horse by now, but honestly. It's hard not to feel like the suspect system is rigged or something. Catch-22 and all that.

We don't ban things in an attempt to nerf a strategy completely, however we do try to dwindle and calm its widespread impact said "suspect" has on the metagame as a whole.

Also, Aldaron's proposal. Just saying, I'm pretty sure that ban was to nerf rain completely since it specifically targeted Drizzle and Swift Swim being used in combination.

Speaking of which, Sand may have struggled for a brief glimpse in OU after Excadrill was banned, but soon recaptured its glory with the infamous "VolTurn" strategy which fashioned the same six Pokemon on a daily basis.

Nah, I disagree. Sand has some good shit going for it, Excadrill or no. VolTurn is hardly all Sand can do. Terrakion's as big a threat as ever (and man, free SpDef on him is nasty), and Stoutland has always been able to do serious work if you're smart. Landorus back in BW1 was pretty damn good, too. I don't really see how Sand could struggle. It certainly isn't going to struggle in the future now that it has the amazing tool of Keldeo available to it.

 

[PttP]

Don't blame the council for not bringing drizzle up as a suspect we had a chance to ban drizzle 3 fucking years ago but nooooooooo we had to do the shitty aldarons proposal nonsense

Still bitter

Still prideful of my ban-drizzle roots

 

[Taylor]

Also, Aldaron's proposal. Just saying, I'm pretty sure that ban was to nerf rain completely since it specifically targeted Drizzle and Swift Swim being used in combination.

Nah, I disagree. Sand has some good shit going for it, Excadrill or no. VolTurn is hardly all Sand can do. Terrakion's as big a threat as ever (and man, free SpDef on him is nasty), and Stoutland has always been able to do serious work if you're smart. Landorus back in BW1 was pretty damn good, too. I don't really see how Sand could struggle. It certainly isn't going to struggle in the future now that it has the amazing tool of Keldeo available to it.

SS+Drizzle ban could've been seen a mile away. People may've disagreed with the proposal but you'd have to be 100% dumb to protest what it did for OU itself. Compare Excadrill to your logic; did we ban the mole because sand was too dominent, or simply due to Excadrill being so powerful as a stand-alone sweeper?

Kingdra w/ Swift Swim and automatic weather was literally on every team I made during the first few months of Black/White and that was down to the fact that its stats, under rain, were off the chart. Note how Kingdra and SS abusers in general was the problem and not particulary rain. You could run "rain stall" in early B/W and be forced to play like a magician if you were to successfully outplay your opponent (who, for arguments sake, used an offensive rain).

Different varients of sand were effective but nothing was as impactful as the standard team of six (Terrakion/Scizor/Rotom-w/Tyranitar/Landorus/Celebi). By the time I gave this team a run myself I replaced Celebi for Latios under the assumption its strategy had become way too obvious. I had success because I could lure Scizor with Expert Belt Latios and set up a Terrakion sweep. Believe me, even with Landorus-t around I know exactly what Terrakion is capable of and it's done nothing but improve with the introduction of BW2.

Suspect system's rigged? Seriously... anyone with animosity towards the council have been driven over by a gritter.

 

[nyttyn]

SS+Drizzle ban could've been seen a mile away. People may've disagreed with the proposal but you'd have to be 100% dumb to protest what it did for OU itself. Compare Excadrill to your logic; did we ban the mole because sand was too dominent, or simply due to Excadrill being so powerful as a stand-alone sweeper?

Yes, but what did we really gain by that complicated mess of a ban? We could've cut off all of the Hydra's heads at once, instead we opted to lop off a few and now have to contend with the rest. Without rain, Kingdra and other SS abusers could not exist - and rain also did a lot more shit then just activate swift swim. And yeah, I remember that dark time. It was horrible.

Now we just have to deal with only every other team being rain.

or in other words

Still bitter

Still prideful of my ban-drizzle roots

Different varients of sand were effective but nothing was as impactful as the standard team of six (Terrakion/Scizor/Rotom-w/Tyranitar/Landorus/Celebi). By the time I gave this team a run myself I replaced Celebi for Latios under the assumption its strategy had become way too obvious. I had success because I could lure Scizor with Expert Belt Latios and set up a Terrakion sweep. Believe me, even with Landorus-t around I know exactly what Terrakion is capable of and it's done nothing but improve with the introduction of BW2.

Agreed, that's still an incredibly solid team and pretty much the face of sand (perhaps not the dominant team anymore, but still very iconic). And Landorus-T isn't really that big a deal since, well, he's only one of a few ways to handle Terrakion.

 

[alexwolf]

Banning Drizzle right now is not an option and won't happen. We won't fuck up a meta that we don't have the time to fix, as Pokemon X&Y are only a few months away.

 

[Shurtugal]

Tbh I'm not looking forward to another new metagame lol.

Hide

because my teambuilding guide will become OUTDATED when i post it D:

edit: also agreeing with post below me!

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Really loving the people who assume that everyone hates weather.

Or that the "majority" of Smogon hates Rain

Get me a poll where you can prove that popular opinion would have rather banned weather otherwise take your head out of your ass and realize that you speak only for yourself.


I personally would not have wanted Rain banned because that would have inevitably lead to a cascade of bans including Sun of things that are nowhere near broken of their own merit, including potentially Terakion, Volcarona, Landorus, Latios, perhaps even Reuniclus if early suspect tests are anything to go by.