General Doubles Metagame Thread

[BlankZero]

It's usually one of my last pokes standing, I initially went with tailwind too but it doesn't really make good use of it.

Wide guard makes it immune to rock slide's and discharges for a turn and supports your partner.. icy wind whilst your partner protects against faster mons is approximately as reliable as cresselia and just like cresselia it has helping hand. Let's not forget it resists heat wave, is immune to surf and EQ and takes a pittance from the majority of sludge wave users.

Combination of icy wind, wide guard and helping hand is enough for me. The main reason to use it over cress if you use it at all is wide guard + water absorb, basically makes it a better rain counter and a reliable support mon that is simply not quite as bulky. I guess when stealth rock catches on it's viability will shoot down.

Also BlankZero, I was trying to say Archeops is more viable then you give it credit for, not that it is good with a focus sash (lol). Although it's ability doesn't reduce its speed under 50% so you can try something gimmicky like endeavour if you really want to sash it. I've used sash aerodactyl as well and they play two different roles, aerodactyl doesn't have archeops KO potential whilst archeops doesn't have aerodactyl's unique speed/movepool/ability combination. Ofcourse this could all change the moment Aerodactyl gets a stab recoil move or Archeops gets a new ability.

I'm not saying Archeops isn't a threat at all, but once it gets to 50% it's deadweight on the team.

 

[Manitary]

If I'm not wrong, nobody talked about...Murkrow! I find him extremely versatile, suffering of 4MSS. Here's a list of moves he can abuse with Prankster (not in importance order): Roost to keep healthy, Thunder Wave, Haze, Rain Dance/Sunny Day, Taunt, Torment, FeatherDance, Quash, Tailwind.
The drawback is the total absence of bulk: 60/42/42 even with Eviolite is bad, expecially if double targeted, he can only takes weak/medium spread attacks but then is forced to Roost or die on the next turn.

Here's the set I'm trying

Murkrow @ Eviolite
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Def
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tailwind
- Haze
- Roost
- Taunt

and here are two examples of his utilize
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles7665654
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles7770443 (I played pretty bad in this one, but notice how Latios+Murkrow take down most of the enemy team)

Other types of team can drop some moves to use other more suitable, like Tailwind for TR team, Haze if you don't have Att/SpA reducing moves, etc.

 

[BlankZero]

If I'm not wrong, nobody talked about...Murkrow! I find him extremely versatile, suffering of 4MSS. Here's a list of moves he can abuse with Prankster (not in importance order): Roost to keep healthy, Thunder Wave, Haze, Rain Dance/Sunny Day, Taunt, Torment, FeatherDance, Quash, Tailwind.
The drawback is the total absence of bulk: 60/42/42 even with Eviolite is bad, expecially if double targeted, he can only takes weak/medium spread attacks but then is forced to Roost or die on the next turn.

Here's the set I'm trying

Murkrow @ Eviolite
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Def
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tailwind
- Haze
- Roost
- Taunt

and here are two examples of his utilize
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles7665654
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles7770443 (I played pretty bad in this one, but notice how Latios+Murkrow take down most of the enemy team)

Other types of team can drop some moves to use other more suitable, like Tailwind for TR team, Haze if you don't have Att/SpA reducing moves, etc.

You could also try a move set of
-perish song
-protect
-tailwind
-taunt

And pair it with Wobb and ruin teams.

 

[Skore]

Who would you say is a good user of Imprison?

For me it is Ninetales. Being able to lock their weather starters out of Protect can hand you the match very early on.

 

[Arcticblast]

Musharna is probably the best user of Imprison - it also learns all of Helping Hand, Trick Room and Protect, as well as being able to run either Psychic or Psyshock over Helping Hand (or Protect). Its Telepathy ability does that while allowing your partner to fire off an Earthquake for free. It's an awesome anti-Trick Room Pokemon.

 

[felix]

If I'm not wrong, nobody talked about...Murkrow! I find him extremely versatile, suffering of 4MSS. Here's a list of moves he can abuse with Prankster (not in importance order): Roost to keep healthy, Thunder Wave, Haze, Rain Dance/Sunny Day, Taunt, Torment, FeatherDance, Quash, Tailwind.
The drawback is the total absence of bulk: 60/42/42 even with Eviolite is bad, expecially if double targeted, he can only takes weak/medium spread attacks but then is forced to Roost or die on the next turn.

Here's the set I'm trying

Murkrow @ Eviolite
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Def
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tailwind
- Haze
- Roost
- Taunt

and here are two examples of his utilize
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles7665654
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles7770443 (I played pretty bad in this one, but notice how Latios+Murkrow take down most of the enemy team)

Other types of team can drop some moves to use other more suitable, like Tailwind for TR team, Haze if you don't have Att/SpA reducing moves, etc.

I noticed in one of the battles you mentioned basing your Murkrow on my Golbat set. That's a pretty cool strategy you are using with Murkrow. Prankster guarantees that you set Haze and/or Tailwind first, which is something that Golbat cannot. To be honest I use Golbat because Inner Focus guarantees he will not get Fake Out'd and will set Tailwind and it's pretty bulky with eviolite and 75/70/75 defenses. I also noticed you are using a similar Mew to the one I use with Fake out, u-turn and sucker punch. My fourth move was helping hand, but i really never ended up using it much, Transform is an interesting idea too, but seems like something you gotta use at the right time since you are using a turn to just transform. I was considering using Ice punch to help with all the dragons or drain punch for coverage and heal some HP.
Anyways here are some other battles I had recently, some of them pretty close.
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles7781287
Vs. AOrtega
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles7766098
Vs. icarus
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles7712822
Vs. Mdevil

 

[Manitary]

Yes I saw your Golbat and istantly searched for other pokémon knowing Haze. Both Murkrow and Golbat has his own niche, depending on the moves and the choice between Prankster and Inner Focus + more bulk.
I modified Mew removing Sucker Punch and U-Turn for Transform and Taunt, but it's too gimmick since it works well only if you get an opportunity to Transform in something useful and you don't lose much HP in the process

In the second replay I noticed the same set I was trying yesterday night: Contrary Shuckle + Skill Swap Victini. It's a pretty good combo with Contrary V-Create boosting both defenses and speed but even with 100 in all stats Victini doesn't stand long without a reliable way to recover health (with ChestoRest you have only 1 free moveslot since V-Create is mandatory).

the set tried

Shuckle @ Leftovers
Trait: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Sunny Day
- Toxic
- Helping Hand

Victini @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Victory Star
EVs: 252 HP / 136 SDef / 120 Def
Impish Nature
- V-create
- Overheat
- Glaciate
- Skill Swap

 

[Skore]

I wish the move Soak had better distribution.

Alomomola and Golduck are the 2 most viable users of it I think, Alo because of the rest of it's supporting move pool and Golduck shuts down weather while it's in play.

Pair them up with a strong Discharge user and have fun Soaking ground types then frying them with a Discharge or becoming fodder for a Giga Drain to heal up your grass type partner.

Here's a battle where it takes out a Jirachi and Hippowdon (I hope, think I did it wrong).

 

[Agonist]

Got bored, so I threw together a Hail Team.

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles8150260

Need to make a few tweaks to the team, notably teach Kyurem-B Blizzard, and teach Deoxys Recover.

 

[felix]

@Manitary: The Victini + Shuckle combo can be deadly if you pull it off. It really took me be surprise on that match, but now I am definitely prepared for it if I see those two in the same team. I think anyone would focus on taking Victini out first. I'm thinking that you could get the advantage if you start with vicitini and a fake out user, it could force the opponent to protect first and you switch out to shuckle and use skill swap with Victini on your first turn. I just came up with this so I'm not sure how effective it could be. Also with Mew, have you considered instead of transform to use t-wave or wow? the statuses could help with speed control or physical sweepers respectively. You could also use ally switch to keep Victini alive longer.

@Skore: What about Seaking? With Lightning Rod it is immune to his teammate's discharge. It's speed is disappointing but there are ways to work around it. You could even give it a Scarf and use Soak first so his teammate can Discharge on the same turn, but it seems risky.

 

[Skore]

Well one problem I came up against was that Golduck/Alo are so slooow that they can be KO'd by strong electric types such as Thundurus-T. Seaking in that situation would have allowed me to get the Soak off on it easily, but as you say - it's stats are a bit on the bad side.


Edit: OKAY! So Seaking is actually working pretty well in this role and my team is starting to take shape.

Hide

Virizion @ Life Orb
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Giga Drain
- Protect
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Focus Blast

Victini @ Fire Gem
Trait: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- U-turn
- Protect

Landorus (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Protect
- Superpower

Jolteon @ Magnet
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Discharge
- Shadow Ball
- Detect
- Hidden Power [Fighting]

Seaking @ Leftovers
Trait: Lightningrod
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Protect
- Icy Wind
- Scald
- Soak

Thundurus (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Discharge
- Protect
- Hidden Power [Ice]

 

[OVERGRO]

Regarding Snarl: it seems useful, although I can't think of many particular examples at the moment though aside from weakening Surfs and Blizzards in a sort of pseudo-Intimidate. Struggle Bug also lowers the stat one stage.

I don't suppose it would catch on, but if it does, why not Leer and Growl (both double target stat lowering moves) as well? Particularly Leer + Rock Slide or EQ could end up being quite useful.

Yes I saw your Golbat and istantly searched for other pokémon knowing Haze. Both Murkrow and Golbat has his own niche, depending on the moves and the choice between Prankster and Inner Focus + more bulk.
I modified Mew removing Sucker Punch and U-Turn for Transform and Taunt, but it's too gimmick since it works well only if you get an opportunity to Transform in something useful and you don't lose much HP in the process

In the second replay I noticed the same set I was trying yesterday night: Contrary Shuckle + Skill Swap Victini. It's a pretty good combo with Contrary V-Create boosting both defenses and speed but even with 100 in all stats Victini doesn't stand long without a reliable way to recover health (with ChestoRest you have only 1 free moveslot since V-Create is mandatory).

the set tried

Shuckle @ Leftovers
Trait: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Sunny Day
- Toxic
- Helping Hand

Victini @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Victory Star
EVs: 252 HP / 136 SDef / 120 Def
Impish Nature
- V-create
- Overheat
- Glaciate
- Skill Swap

This here is a freaking amazing idea.

Immediately things that pop into my head:

Close Combat Skill Swap Gallade.
Leaf Storm Skill Swap Exeggutor.
Skill Swap Mew with Draco Meteor, Overheat, Superpower, you name it.
Skill Swap Deoxys with Psycho Boost.
Skill Swap Draco Meteor Jirachi.
Skill Swap Leaf Storm Celebi.


That's not all. Spinda learns Skill Swap and has the ability Contrary. Sash Spinda, perhaps under Trick Room or Tailwind could end up Skill Swapping Contrary to a whole bunch of possible pokemon!

Latios, Latias, Heatran (Overheat), Infernape, Kyurem, Volcarona, Chandelure, Dragonite, Scizor, Tyranitar, Honchkrow, Mamoswine, Stoutland, Eelektross, Landorus, Keldeo, Rotom-, Rotom-H or even Azumarill would all love to benefit from their Draco Meteors, Overheats, Leaf Storms and Superpowers.

Genius find, dude!

 

[Manitary]

I tried Spinda before Shuckle because I didn't know he has Contrary too, the problem with Spinda is that his stats are just too low and he can't benefit from Eviolite: if double targeted or targeted + spread moves he's almost surely OHKO'ed (watch out though: 252/128 Chople Berry Spinda takes at most 89.2% from 252 Jolly Terrakion's Close Combat, and 252/128+ at most 99.07% from 252 Timid Kingdra's Hydro Pump under rain, if they haven't band/specs)
Also, base 60 speed is just too slow, even if invested the recipient of Skill Swap will often outspeed it so you must get the switch in during the move usage or "lose" a turn throwing some damage with non-stat-decreasing moves or some utility move.
For example I tried a couple of matches with Spinda+Arcanine

Hide

Spinda @ Focus Sash
Trait: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef
Careful Nature
- Protect
- Skill Swap
- Helping Hand
- Fake Out

Arcanine @ Shuca Berry
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Lonely Nature
- Close Combat
- Overheat
- ExtremeSpeed
- Sunny Day

and it's really nice when you face 2 physical attackers who can't OHKO Spinda because after 1 turn you get the sun, Contrary on Arcanine and an extra Intimidate. The problem (other than the pathetic frailty of Spinda) is the damage output of Arcanine which is just too low, but I've not tried Morning Sun for reliable recovery or Wild Charge for more coverage (any bulky Water-type wall this set even at +4 SpA and slowly wear it down).

 

[OVERGRO]

I realized that shortly after, yeah. Spinda can't take hits, and if he does he'll be out in no time making it a one time deal. He's to a Spinda evo in Gen 6 haha.

I'm interested in Mew, Deoxys and Jirachi with Shuckle anyways. Too bad Shuckle isn't the best either...

 

[Manitary]

Shuckle unfortunately has a shallow movepool, but has its niche with access to Stealth Rock, Sunny Day/Sandstorm, Helping Hand, Encore (and String Shot, which affects both enemies lol!)...at least he takes most hits better than Spinda!

[iirc Power Split and Guard Split are bugged on PS :( otherwise he could halves an enemy's attack or boost his ally's defenses]

 

[OVERGRO]

Of course, hopefully that will get fixed soon :)
String Shot haha.

 

[HabibsHotDogs]

I'd like to suggest that we allow DW abilities in doubles, if for no other reason then that there is no more "dream world" tier and it'll be great to be able to use all the DW locked pokemon again :)

I really want to try scarfed golduck soak + specs serperior and perish song with chandelure etc :) (Oh and also sheer force feraligatr but thats more for singles)

 

[nyttyn]

I'd like to suggest that we allow DW abilities in doubles, if for no other reason then that there is no more "dream world" tier and it'll be great to be able to use all the DW locked pokemon again :)

I really want to try scarfed golduck soak + specs serperior and perish song with chandelure etc :) (Oh and also sheer force feraligatr but thats more for singles)

Yes, we should completely throw away all progress we have made towards making this a legitimate metagame that Smogon offically endorses and supports because some random poster thought it would be a great idea.


I want you to step back from this thread, step far, far back from it, sit down, and think about, in how many ways, that idea is horrible.


And once that's done, please never bring up such a stupid idea ever again. Please. DW OU still exists if you want to play that. Just...please, think before you post.

Edit: I'm not trying to shit on you and say "GTFO," please understand. I'm just asking that you think before you post.

 

[ElectivireRocks]

Yes, we should completely throw away all progress we have made towards making this a legitimate metagame that Smogon offically endorses and supports because some random poster thought it would be a great idea.


I want you to step back from this thread, step far, far back from it, sit down, and think about, in how many ways, that idea is horrible.


And once that's done, please never bring up such a stupid idea ever again. Please. DW OU still exists if you want to play that. Just...please, think before you post.

Woah way to be a complete jerk over a legitimate suggestion.
And what progress would you be throwing away with the introduction of DW abilities?
The metagame is barely known outside of this very section. There is still plenty of room for change.

 

[nyttyn]

Woah way to be a complete jerk over a legitimate suggestion.
And what progress would you be throwing away with the introduction of DW abilities?
The metagame is barely known outside of this very section. There is still plenty of room for change.

Allow me to explain to you the problems with it.

Firstly, it's not a legitimate suggestion. Emulator play, at all times, attempts to identically replicate cartridge play. Since DW Unreleased pokemon are completely impossible to legitimately get ingame, they cannot be allowed in any standard smogon metagame. Ergo, how can letting fantasy fairlyland pokemon we don't know will ever exist count as an legitimate suggestion? You might as well say we should start allowing any move on any mon because they might be released.

And secondly, this isn't change. This is pandering to the very small minority people who want to use a handful of theoretical pokemon we have no idea will exist or not now or ever, thus breaking our adherence to play identical to that of cartridges. This thread exhaustively covers why that's a bad idea: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82254


tl;dr

Smogon is a website which focuses on competitive Pokemon battling. For the sake of creating the most balanced and competitive metagames possible, Smogon exercises its own set of rules, or clauses, and list of banned Pokemon who we find to be "broken" (as defined by our characteristics of a desirable metagame) in certain tiers. Smogon also endorses the use of online Pokemon battling simulators to play the game. Official Smogon simulators aim to directly imitate the mechanics of cartridge Pokemon battling to the best of our knowledge, with absolutely no exceptions.

nyt note: barring fantasy shit like hackmons

sit down and read policy please.

 

[Joim]

Shuckle unfortunately has a shallow movepool, but has its niche with access to Stealth Rock, Sunny Day/Sandstorm, Helping Hand, Encore (and String Shot, which affects both enemies lol!)...at least he takes most hits better than Spinda!

[iirc Power Split and Guard Split are bugged on PS :( otherwise he could halves an enemy's attack or boost his ally's defenses]

afaik Power Split was already fixed, I believe Guard Split too. I don't know for sure though.

 

[VarunR]

@nyttyn - what's the problem in discussing it?

We get the usage stats after this month, right? I'm pretty excited to know the top 5/top 10 pokemon in doubles. Cresselia and Hitmontop should be there, probably at 1 and 2 respectively. After them? Metagross, Politoed, Shaymin-S, Terrakion, Whimsicott, Gastrodon, Heatran are a regular sight on teams (I've probably missed some). Ninetales could also break to the top 10. I see Sneasel around a lot, as well as Kingdra, but not as much.

 

[nyttyn]

Because VarnuR, we're here to play a legitimate metagame that actually exists, not a mythical fairy tale magical one. I understand the appeal, but there's no reason to discuss allowing DW pokemon that might not even ever be legally released into Smogon doubles since it goes completely against our emulator-simulator clause.

Anyways, back onto doubles discussion

Musharna @ Sitrus Berry / Leftovers
Trait: Telepathy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 SAtk
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Helping Hand
- Psychic
- Thunder Wave
- Gravity

I've been having a huge amount of success with this Murshuna on sand teams. Why use it over Cresselia, you ask? Because Murshuna is able to avoid taking any damage at all from Landorus-T's normal gem explosion, which opens huge chunks in the enemy team if you use it at the right time! It's also pretty cool on rain teams if that's your thing. Just swap out Gravity for something else in that case.

 

[Stratos]

Woah way to be a complete jerk over a legitimate suggestion.
And what progress would you be throwing away with the introduction of DW abilities?
The metagame is barely known outside of this very section. There is still plenty of room for change.

Nyttyn may have been a complete ass in his responses to both you and user habibshotdogs, but he was absolutely right. The fact of the matter is playing with DW unreleased Pokemon, as fun as it may sound (i played DW tier for a couple months myself) is not a good idea here. For one: it splits the already small userbase between two tiers, Smogon Doubles and DW Smogon Doubles. For two: as nyttyn covered above, it's silly to play with DW abilities in general. For three: (this is most important) if we allow DW unreleased abilities, our legitimacy as a tier will be absolutely WRECKED. Smogon Doubles is catching like wildfire, with a lot of good players becoming interested in this tier. We really like that. If we allow DW abilities, whether or not we personally think it's stupid, from the outside looking in we just became a "joke meta." From people trying to make this a legitimate tier such as myself, pocket, and nyttyn, the very words "DW unreleased" scares the ever-loving shit out of us, because if they are ever implemented, you can take our dreams of being taken seriously and kiss them goodbye. So please never mention this again.

@nyttyn - what's the problem in discussing it?

We get the usage stats after this month, right? I'm pretty excited to know the top 5/top 10 pokemon in doubles. Cresselia and Hitmontop should be there, probably at 1 and 2 respectively. After them? Metagross, Politoed, Shaymin-S, Terrakion, Whimsicott, Gastrodon, Heatran are a regular sight on teams (I've probably missed some). Ninetales could also break to the top 10. I see Sneasel around a lot, as well as Kingdra, but not as much.

Sneasel lolwat.

There are lots of great pokemon, and i think the funniest thing about the usage stats for doubles is that none of the top five will be pokemon that win you games. Given the amount of variety in the tier, so many teams have completely different "win condition" pokemon, but good glue pokemon are harder to find. So when it comes to my guesses for the most used, I'm going to have to go with things like: Landorus-T, Cresselia, Hitmontop, etc. Of course, we may be shocked (i've seen far too many noobs using shuckle to be surprised by what I see here). I think the real threats to watch out for in the tier, though, will be the ones sitting between 6-30 in usage: stuff like Victini, Excadrill, Kingdra, Thundurus, and Heatran.

 

[DTC]

Lets improve the quality of this discussion and stop bickering at each other.

What do you guys think of Darkrai right now? I actually haven't seen any at all, which is quite surprising. I mean, I know it does not have that much going for it without Dark Void, but that excellent Speed and Special Attack surely makes it at least somewhat useful.

Darkrai + Hitmontop sounds like a decent combination because of their great offensive synergy. Hitmontop can also Fake Out stuff to allow Darkrai to set up Substitute and Intimidate attackers so Darkrai doesn't get killed as easily.

I haven't used Darkrai yet, but I'm going to try it soon when I have a good idea of what to use with it.