Even still, with the Rash nature, it's still not getting taken down any time soon and rips through Team 2 like butter. Even moreso than Starmie, and isn't screwed by Stealth Rock like Volc.
You are misunderstanding what was being criticized, (or we failed to properly explain ourselves. Either way there was a miscommunication and I hope to clear it up) it wasn't a matter of being defensive or not as it was being able to execute the main idea behind this project; counter the opposing team while being as hard to counter as possible. For example, one of the early defensive mons suggested was Jellicent. Although he was very capable of countering the current two picks (Keldeo and Heatran) he lacked any significant sort of offensive pressure and was thus passed in favor of the Rotom-W who was more difficult to counter pick. The recent example of Infernape (I'm assuming this is who you were referring, too) was an good example of a Pokemon that is hard to counter but because of his inability to counter the other team's recent picks he was passed in favor of one who could. (while remaining difficult to counter due to the offensive support provided by hazards)It's also, from my point of view, pretty funny that at start people were criticizing some picks for being defensive, then later for not not being defensive. However, if you think about it one second, it's far more logical to build a strong defensive skeleton on the first steps of the project (basically because defensive pokemons bring more utility than offensive ones, spin, hazards, status etc.. thus can never be totally shut down and "countered", you can't contain their utility) and focus on the offensive side the last steps.
Shed Shell is a one time use. If the player doesn't know how to trap Skarmory twice, him/herself probably doesn't know how to use trapping Pokemon very effectively.Magnezone: Shed Shell Skarm still escapes his clutches, Scizor still hits too hard for it to set up properly and Hydreigon can abuse his resists and roast it with Fire Blast.
Responses in boldI think that you need to explain stuff Mewtwo. What I find sad is that you take a statement like "pokemon with few offensive pressure is easy to counter" as granted. I think that you're the one missing my point.Precisely, we disagree on this point which leads to our general disagreement on many of the suggestions. My stance is that we should try to counter the OP's picks with a Pokemon that is very difficult to counter himself. Stallish Pokemon like Blissey rely on status to leave their mark which limits the opponents picks far less than something like Terrakion that has a short list of counters. Not saying its impossible to counter them just harder. Personally, I see a Bulky Offense team as the ideal one for this type of project as the idea behind it is to use their resistances/bulk to come in safely while packing significant punch so that they wear down their switch-ins.
I will not also consider your arguments as good just before you take the votes to valid them. Sorry, I didn't mean to use votes as proof that my stance is justified. I just meant to use them as examples as to why this certain way of thinking lead to them being selected. I see where my wording was misleading so I'll use Pokemon that have nothing to do with this project as examples from now on.
You know why ? Because you can NOT put an offensive pressure on pokemons that haven't been picked yet.
No, but you can put offensive pressure on the team choosing the Pokemon so that their choices are limited.
However, you CAN bring utility on almost anything.
And almost anything can come in on Pokemon that rely on utility. I'm all for putting TWave on things but its better if its on things that can bite with their attacks so that the other team doesn't just choose an offensive Pokemon that doesn't care about Paralysis.
This, is my point. Bring UTILITY first, not blind coverage.
You need both. (I must admit I'm not entirely sure what you mean when you say utility so if it looks like I'm not answering you that's why)
And I'm happy that you talk about Keldeo, the Rotom-W pick put the team 1 in a crappy situation. Just look at it, Keldeo is a pokemon with an easily countered coverage, and he can still 2HKO everybody on the opposite team with SR. That's a huge nonsense in my opinion, a massiv fail in the nominations. And you talk about Jellicent, this is funny, why don't you talk about Slowbro, he was the one bringing the TWave in the first place, and he walls Keldeo for days and put more offensive pressure (with even a reliable recovery move) since he can 0HKO Keldeo.
I didn't bring up Slowbro cause I didn't want to look like I was attacking your picks specifically. I won't be responding to this because the reasoning was provided earlier in the thread. I'll just give you the vague answer that it has to do with putting pressure on future picks to control their choices as well as, hopefully, the game.
Let's keep looking at the nominations. I don't get why Keldeo has been chosen in the first place. I looked back at the explanations and this is :
- We need a water mon
- Keldeo puts offensive pressure
(- Counters can be trapped by Gothitelle => I don't see how people accepted this argument since almost everything can be trapped, and anyway the statement isn't even true)
I personally wasn't a big fan of Keldeo either so I'm not the best person to try to defend it. However, I do appreciate the solid coverage and speed of Keldeo as I feel it still will prove to be very useful in the battle regardless of the fact I didn't agree with it being picked.
Anyway, if I had to be sad about one thing in this project it would be this first pick. I don't get the logic of this Kyurem-B decision.
Ideally, (in my personal opinion) the first pick is a Pokemon that is independant while posing a general offensive threat and, if possible, providing some utility for the future team. Cube did an excellent job of this as he didn't come with any required teammates tagged on (His SR weakness was outweighed by his bulk and recovery while boosted Dragon Tail still hit hard enough to work without significant hazards support) while still threatening to sweep if he wasn't directly addressed. His ability to shuffle is also useful as it helps to wear down the opposing team a bit by blowing around some SR + DTail damage.
Now about Volcarona, your idea is to :
- Delay the sweep with a Sturdy Volcarona, you're a brave player I must say.
- "Play around with switches" yes, of course, and we know that one Quiver Dance and it's over, so if you bring the "smart switches argument", I call the "smart Quiver Dance on your switch" one. You hit me when I boost ? With what ? a Hydreigon that will see his SpA fall ? A walled Scizor ? A 0 attack Skarmory ? A Heatran only able to Roar ?
Nah, you can only Whirwind me, crossing your finger so I don't kill OHKO you first with Fire Blast.
I mentioned Sturdy phaze and smart switching as last resorts which is why I listed them as answers in the worst case scenario. My point is that it is incredibly difficult to reliably sweep with Volcarona. To avoid the OHKO from Keldeo you have to QD without taking any prior damage during the short period that SR isn't up on the field yet. (which isn't going to be for very long as Skarm can easily set them up) Hitting you when you boost isn't meant to kill, its meant to deal the tad bit of previous damage so Keldeo doesn't have any difficulty in OHKOing with Hydro Pump.
Be realistic, even if I can't sweep the whole team with Volcarona, I still outspeed your 5/6 of the team, and OHKO a half. Why would I even bother when I can force you to switch your Scarfer in each time I switch my Volcarona in. Moreover, you forget that with Volcarona's threat, you cannot use Hydreigon's Draco Meteor or you'll be punished, same goes for Scizor and Keldeo's move bar his Water stab.
Except that Volcarona can't switch around to do any damage as SR cripples it heavily.
It can't sweep when SR are up, I think that's it's one again a shortcut that you use, because let's say I lead with Volcarona, what can you do ? You do some "smart switches" etc ?
Let's say I lead with Keldeo. My point is that you have to make really impressive plays to make Volcarona work.
At best you do a smart switch to Keldeo and get locked in the following turn. And then, I'll keep the pressure on, making you understand that if you put those SR, you'll lose your main pokemon supposed to wall "4/5" of my team and I'll still have 3 Volcarona's switches left.
Good luck putting pressure on Skarm when 4/6 of the team is setup fodder.
On another topic Raikou is a really good pick. But it's the same, I use my Sturdy Skarmory to check you, you won't sweep anytime soon ! :naughty:
(Celebi can survive and TWave it though)
Except that Raikou doesn't suffer from a crippling SR weakness nor any weaknesses to the OP's revenge killer. This means that he has no problem switching out and trying again later which Volca can't cause it loses half of it's HP.
I kind of was too as that'd have evened the scores out a bit. No offence novray but I think it was the scizor pick that made it difficult. Rocks, can run from skarm, counter heracross and Mamoswine. Remedy probably had the best pick in gliscor then but I didn't see that at the time :/. I kinda fell bad as I voted against key members in team 2 like melee mewtwo's hydriegon as if that pick had have gone to who I wanted its gg.The Infernape set seems like it will wreck team two. Seems like ths will end like last time. :(
I was really hoping for team two to win this time.
Not really, if we had picked Gliscor or Terrakion their instant offensive threat and wide coverage would mean Team 1 would have very specific counters they could pick. The problem this round was that we opted for Scizor who has poor coverage and relys on Bullet Punch so there are a plethora of things that can check/counter it. (like this new Keldeo that I'm not sure who to vote for now) This opened up Team 1 to be able to pick a bunch of niche sweeper sets instead of having to grab a Gengar, Skarm, Hippo, etc.Yeah but no matter how good team 2 is built, team 1 will alway be able to find a huge weakness as the possibilities are endless, especially because there is no rule for bs sets, and so everyone can post whatever the fuck he wants. Every team has big weaknesses and allowing Team 1 to capitalize on that is just unfair.