It really isn't that small if 46% of people think drizzle is a problem. That's very close to the percentage it would take to ban something. The same people who dislike drizzle or weather in general are the ones who tend to ladder, sooo.
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Auto weather poll
- Thread starter MeteorMiss
- Start date
- Status
haunter
Banned deucer.
Nah, you missed my point. What I meant is that this poll is the closest thing to an objective fact, in regards to what the community (or a large part of it) prefers, since B\W 2.
Also, you're reading the poll wrong. Only 26% think that the problem is Drizzle. While I'm in favor of the "keep it as it is" option, I'd definitely join the "ban all" party if I had to chose between banning Drizzle and banning all the auto weather.
Also, you're reading the poll wrong. Only 26% think that the problem is Drizzle. While I'm in favor of the "keep it as it is" option, I'd definitely join the "ban all" party if I had to chose between banning Drizzle and banning all the auto weather.
The reason why I said 46% is because there's the side that just thinks drizzle is the problem and the side that thinks all weather is the problem. It wouldn't be too out of context to lump those two together when examining drizzle, specifically; considering they share similar sentiments in that regard. However, I understand when you mention the community as a whole, I thought you were simply downplaying the opinions of those who weren't represented in a majority-esque fashion. I do agree with you that banning all weathers is absurd and simply cannot be done right now. I think this thread, while quite ridiculous in its own right, has some merit in what a large portion of the community thinks, and would be a good scope for future tiering decisions in gen 6. Food for thought.
Yeah, the problem with this is that people are failing to take into consideration the fact that while Drizzle clearly is top crust, other strats are not null-and-voided by its very existence. It's why Drizzle is OU legal and, say, Ho-Oh isn't - Ho-Oh is an absolute monster whos virtues have been extolled time after time again and would completely wrap the metagame around itself if it dropped down into OU. Drizzle, on the other hand, isn't every single team, nor does it have to be - it's simply the best in OU.
Just because it is the best, however, does not mean it is too good. It is easier to succeed with it then weatherless, yes - but you know what? It's still perfectly possible and reasonable to use a team without even so much as considering Politoed as one of your pokmeon.
So yeah. It's good, but as time has shown, it doesn't completely shut out every other strat - it's a long way from doing that. So if you want to have the most success in this metagame, you will use a cookie-cutter team, or innovate past that. Otherwise? Deal with the fact that there is a clearly defined "best" (in the eyes of the ban-Drizzle camp, anyway) team type. Every game that is not perfectly balanced in unit composition across both fields of play will have this issue, and if you try to tackle it, all you'll wind up doing is banning the next best thing, and then the next best thing, and then finally all that there's left to ban is Bidoof.
tl;dr drizzle is top dog right now, there will always be a top dog, it isn't so powerful that it shuts down the rest of the game, deal with it.
Edit: For those of you who disagree - is Politoed (and all that comes with having a Politoed, including Drizzle) quite as good as Ho-Oh? Does it come close to Arceus? Is it anywhere near as metagame shaping as Kyogre (who, ironcially has Drizzle)? No? Then take a step back and consider that Drizzle might not be the dominating generation-shitting-upon force you think it is.
Just because it is the best, however, does not mean it is too good. It is easier to succeed with it then weatherless, yes - but you know what? It's still perfectly possible and reasonable to use a team without even so much as considering Politoed as one of your pokmeon.
So yeah. It's good, but as time has shown, it doesn't completely shut out every other strat - it's a long way from doing that. So if you want to have the most success in this metagame, you will use a cookie-cutter team, or innovate past that. Otherwise? Deal with the fact that there is a clearly defined "best" (in the eyes of the ban-Drizzle camp, anyway) team type. Every game that is not perfectly balanced in unit composition across both fields of play will have this issue, and if you try to tackle it, all you'll wind up doing is banning the next best thing, and then the next best thing, and then finally all that there's left to ban is Bidoof.
tl;dr drizzle is top dog right now, there will always be a top dog, it isn't so powerful that it shuts down the rest of the game, deal with it.
Edit: For those of you who disagree - is Politoed (and all that comes with having a Politoed, including Drizzle) quite as good as Ho-Oh? Does it come close to Arceus? Is it anywhere near as metagame shaping as Kyogre (who, ironcially has Drizzle)? No? Then take a step back and consider that Drizzle might not be the dominating generation-shitting-upon force you think it is.
Why is there no reason to run swift swim pokes?
I think now is the best gen to do it. Dugtrio traps and kills Ninetales and Tyranitar. Using Dugtrio+Gothitelle also traps and kills Hippowdon. Even Gothitelle can severely damage Tyranitar with Grass Knot or Hidden Power Fighting.
If the opposing weather is rain, it's even better, abuse their weather for free.
I think there should be a sticky somewhere which explains why SS+Drizzle is banned and Chlorophyll+Drought is not since there is a common question of newbies.
SS+Drizzle is banned because it's maybe the most broken combination in the entire game. Swift Swim pokes in their majority are Water types which the rain besides boosting its Speed x2, boosts its water STABed moves x1.5.
Chrollophyll pokes which are all Grass pokes don't have a boost in their STAB(they have a pseudo-boost in HP Fire, but HP Fire is weak anyways(70 power max)) Solarbeam is unreliable due to weather wars and Growth is very good, but spends 1 turn to setup.
Fire types have their STAB boosted x1.5 in sun, but don't have any boost in Speed by Sun.
Heatran and Salamence were all over the DPPt metagame, but it was not nearly as overcentralizing as weather.
For example, if we take 4th gen in consideration, one will notice how different could teams be. You prety much had to figh the same player to see the same team. Not to mention you actually had to think to make a decent team.
In Gen 5 one will see carbon-copy weather teams everywhere. Most originality is normally someone using Hurricane Moltres in rain or something. It is not really hard to make team, just grab a Politoed/Ninetales throw together the same old abusers and counters and spam Hydro Pump/Fire Blast to victory.
But seriously, do people really want the Gen 6 metagame [and every other metagame from now on] to be weather wars all over only with a few different new Pokemon thrown together because lolnewtoys. Do you really want Gen 6 to be as stale as BW2 metagame?
I don't really play BW2 ever but looking at the SPL games i've seen people haven't been using the same generic team that people are talking about in this thread(more specifically Nachos). I've seen really cool ideas like using Shedinja to counter rain(sounds gimmicky and it is but it's probably effective if it's being used on one of the highest levels of competitive pkmn), Virizion, and other interesting things that aren't used by your standard ladder player. Maybe the problem lies in that these rain teams are so easy to build that other creative options are overlooked. But, that should not be a problem because of rain; that's a problem because of narrow thinking. Now I'm not saying that everyone should just use crappy Pokemon to diversity the metagame. I'm saying that if the top players are using unorthodox stuff, then maybe the rest of the playerbase should as well, and then we may have a better metagame.
I've also seen way more sand teams than rains teams and the only rain vs sand game i remember seeing the sand player won(i hear that this is a bad matchup for the sand player). maybe teammatchup or whatever bkc's yapping about plays less of a factor if people are just a tad bit more innovative. who knows though. it's probably too late for this gen. play adv ou ~n_n~
I've also seen way more sand teams than rains teams and the only rain vs sand game i remember seeing the sand player won(i hear that this is a bad matchup for the sand player). maybe teammatchup or whatever bkc's yapping about plays less of a factor if people are just a tad bit more innovative. who knows though. it's probably too late for this gen. play adv ou ~n_n~
No...provided the sand team was decently built, the sand player has no excuse for losing to rain.
The major matchups occur in games where sun or rain is involved. I'm not saying that every match where they're not involved is completely even, but they are nearly as extreme as the ones with sun and rain, which pretty much have games won or lost based on what the opponent brought. If it's a mirror match, it's basically a coinflip.
I agree with the part written in white btw
BKC, you cannot blame Rain (and Sun) for team match-up of Pokemon. I had a bad team match-up in RU, a tier where there's no weather. People in SPL playing tiers outside of BW OU frequently complains about losing to team match-up. It even makes less sense to ban a playstyle that more often than not loses to said team match-ups - how is Rain losing to a good Sand team a bannable offense -_-
From my personal experience, weather has not worsened team match-up scenarios. Sure, if you use a cookie-cutter Sun team, expect to lose hard against a Hippo Sand team, but a good Sun team can even out this match-up, depending on your team composition.
PS: I disagree - weatherless and sand teams pretty much have the same capacity of beating Rain teams. Rain itself isn't that threatening since they lack Swift Swimmers, so all threats are much easier to revenge-kill (esp now that Tornadus-T is gone). In fact, I'd say weatherless teams would struggle more against Stoutland Sand and Sun teams than Rain teams.
PS TWO: There are plenty of Pokemon that can tank Rain-boosted Hydro Pump...
From my personal experience, weather has not worsened team match-up scenarios. Sure, if you use a cookie-cutter Sun team, expect to lose hard against a Hippo Sand team, but a good Sun team can even out this match-up, depending on your team composition.
PS: I disagree - weatherless and sand teams pretty much have the same capacity of beating Rain teams. Rain itself isn't that threatening since they lack Swift Swimmers, so all threats are much easier to revenge-kill (esp now that Tornadus-T is gone). In fact, I'd say weatherless teams would struggle more against Stoutland Sand and Sun teams than Rain teams.
PS TWO: There are plenty of Pokemon that can tank Rain-boosted Hydro Pump...
While rain is losing to sand with no effort on the sand user's behalf, it's also beating weatherless teams with no effort [unless they bend over backwards to beat it, which greatly restricts their options if they don't decide to use their own weather], and its matchup vs sun is decided by if it has a Dugtrio or not. You also missed the part about mirror matches being coinflips. It should be a bannable offense when it is promoting more emphasis on the teams than the actual playing, something balanced metagames don't have.
I actually made a typo, so let me correct it: "I'm not saying that every match where they're [sun and rain] not involved is completely even, but they are not nearly as extreme as the ones with sun and rain, which pretty much have games won or lost based on what the opponent brought".
The point stands: the reason games are being decided by teams alone is because of sun and rain. Matchup does exist outside of them, yes, but not to the point where games are instantly won and lost because of it.
edit in response to your edit: did you forget that the weatherless teams have no way of stopping those hydro pumps from ever not being boosted? stoutland can at least be walled via conventional methods...
second edit: the post below me is excellent
I actually made a typo, so let me correct it: "I'm not saying that every match where they're [sun and rain] not involved is completely even, but they are not nearly as extreme as the ones with sun and rain, which pretty much have games won or lost based on what the opponent brought".
The point stands: the reason games are being decided by teams alone is because of sun and rain. Matchup does exist outside of them, yes, but not to the point where games are instantly won and lost because of it.
edit in response to your edit: did you forget that the weatherless teams have no way of stopping those hydro pumps from ever not being boosted? stoutland can at least be walled via conventional methods...
second edit: the post below me is excellent
Dark Fallen Angel
FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
The reason why I've voted to "Keep it as it is" is because either you ban Drizzle and Drought, or keep them unbanned. Blaming Drizzle alone for all things that happen with metagame is wrong. As people said pages ago, sand and hail are fine because they lack abusers, and don't happen to boost the power of attacks. Sun and rain are the culprit for the matchups being decided by teams alone, for example, as someone said on this thread, offensive sun teams murder rain stall teams. Unless the former team is used by an extremely poor player. Also:
But if you use Baton Pass, you cannot use Perish Song, otherwise you are forced to forfeit your momentum if the opponent manages to stall out you.
You are right. I have no problems beating sun teams with sand teams, independently if I am using Tyranitar or Hippowdon, as long as they have Dugtrio. However, if they do have Dugtrio, this turns the matchup on my head. This encourage the use of "cookie-cutter" teams, as sun team players, knowing of this, will often use Dugtrio to combat sand teams.
DFA this mindset is wrong and i have told you so many times. You rarely use Perish Song with Celebi (against certain CM users mainly) and when you do you can just switch out manually ffs, it's not the end of the world. So go ahead pick U-turn to scout the switch-ins for the few times that you will use P-Song while i will enjoy avoiding being swept by Keldeo and having to switch out manually those few times ok?
Also what makes people so certain that in a Sand only meta, Sand wouldn't be broken? Sand Force Landorus, Terrakion with 140 base SpD, blazing fast Sandslash and Stoutland that don't even need to be choice locked (aka the best revenge killers), as well as constant passive damage on non Rock / Steel / and Ground types don't seem as something you can ignore easily.
Also what makes people so certain that in a Sand only meta, Sand wouldn't be broken? Sand Force Landorus, Terrakion with 140 base SpD, blazing fast Sandslash and Stoutland that don't even need to be choice locked (aka the best revenge killers), as well as constant passive damage on non Rock / Steel / and Ground types don't seem as something you can ignore easily.
Sandslash sucks. Stoutland isn't even close to broken. If Terrakion's found broken, it won't be because of extra special defense. I think Landorus as a whole is broken, but that's for another time.
Btw, no one said that Sand wouldn't be broken in a Sand-only meta, because a) it most likely wouldn't be, and b) because wether or not something else could potentially be broken has no bearing on if something should be banned or not.
Btw, no one said that Sand wouldn't be broken in a Sand-only meta, because a) it most likely wouldn't be, and b) because wether or not something else could potentially be broken has no bearing on if something should be banned or not.
I voted to ban all weather. Simply because fighting the same cookie cutter teams has gotten old. Always seeing the same sun teams, same sand and same rain. I don't really find weather OP either since I've been able to handle all three with a weatherless team. It also sucks seeing good Pokemon like Excadrill and Tornadus-T getting banned to ubers just because of perma weather. I feel the meta has become stagnant with same weather teams running around.
This is what gets me the most. What exactly are the downsides to banning Drizzle? I don't see why it's so taboo.
Tentacruel and Toxicroak are still perfectly viable without their added recovery. Their typings are still great for getting in and setting up. Dry Skin doesn't go away without Rain.
Scizor, Forretress, Ferrothorn, and Jirachi are OHKOed by Fire moves without Rain? Oh say it ain't so~! No one use Fire-type moves, guys; baby Jirachi can't stand to have more than one weakness.
Thunder has 70 accuracy for a reason. Same goes with Hurricane. 120 power moves with a 30% chance to status and no drawbacks and we could do something about it, but instead we do nothing and still complain about a power creep and hax. Scumbag OU forum.
Water-types don't hit hard enough? Oh poor baby, here let us give you special treatment over all other types.
I know I'm being a little sarcastic now but I still don't see the downside aside from one thing I'll touch into soon.
The fact that Drizzle's the primary factor that we're banning other Pokemon is...well: :evan:
Manaphy and Tornadus-T have no business being Uber on their own, Thundurus is a bit of a mixed issue but Rain was a major factor, and even Keldeo was being tested this round...Keldeo! Say what you will about our Uber choices, but I'm so tired of seeing everyone dance around the problem instead of nipping it in the bud. (Well the bud has already blossomed into a monstrous, unnecessary force.) Drizzle needs banned or at the very least we need a test ban ladder.
However, the only real issue with banning Drizzle is that Sun would be too overpowering and, yes, I'm unable to base this off of any fact due to there still has not being any sort of place to test a Drizzle-less metagame in BW2 but Sun sweepers hit just as hard as Rain sweepers and sadly it's Politoed that keeps things like Darmanitan from being standard on Sun. Tyranitar has a large part in it of course but by taking out an entire weather option, Sun has a lot less to manage and becomes far more viable than it even is today. Again, I can't base this off of facts but Rain really keeps Sun at bay. With that said, I'd have no issue with banning Sun either but not until Rain goes with it.
Aside from Sun, Rain balances nothing and just gives buffs to top Pokemon that would still be top Pokemon without Rain. (Scizor, Keldeo, Jirachi, Ferrothorn, Latios, Tentacruel, Starmie, Skarmory, Cloyster, Jellicent, Gyarados, Forret--yeah you get the picture.)
tl;dr Rain is dumb. I bitch a lot. Waaah~
Tentacruel and Toxicroak are still perfectly viable without their added recovery. Their typings are still great for getting in and setting up. Dry Skin doesn't go away without Rain.
Scizor, Forretress, Ferrothorn, and Jirachi are OHKOed by Fire moves without Rain? Oh say it ain't so~! No one use Fire-type moves, guys; baby Jirachi can't stand to have more than one weakness.
Thunder has 70 accuracy for a reason. Same goes with Hurricane. 120 power moves with a 30% chance to status and no drawbacks and we could do something about it, but instead we do nothing and still complain about a power creep and hax. Scumbag OU forum.
Water-types don't hit hard enough? Oh poor baby, here let us give you special treatment over all other types.
I know I'm being a little sarcastic now but I still don't see the downside aside from one thing I'll touch into soon.
The fact that Drizzle's the primary factor that we're banning other Pokemon is...well: :evan:
Manaphy and Tornadus-T have no business being Uber on their own, Thundurus is a bit of a mixed issue but Rain was a major factor, and even Keldeo was being tested this round...Keldeo! Say what you will about our Uber choices, but I'm so tired of seeing everyone dance around the problem instead of nipping it in the bud. (Well the bud has already blossomed into a monstrous, unnecessary force.) Drizzle needs banned or at the very least we need a test ban ladder.
However, the only real issue with banning Drizzle is that Sun would be too overpowering and, yes, I'm unable to base this off of any fact due to there still has not being any sort of place to test a Drizzle-less metagame in BW2 but Sun sweepers hit just as hard as Rain sweepers and sadly it's Politoed that keeps things like Darmanitan from being standard on Sun. Tyranitar has a large part in it of course but by taking out an entire weather option, Sun has a lot less to manage and becomes far more viable than it even is today. Again, I can't base this off of facts but Rain really keeps Sun at bay. With that said, I'd have no issue with banning Sun either but not until Rain goes with it.
Aside from Sun, Rain balances nothing and just gives buffs to top Pokemon that would still be top Pokemon without Rain. (Scizor, Keldeo, Jirachi, Ferrothorn, Latios, Tentacruel, Starmie, Skarmory, Cloyster, Jellicent, Gyarados, Forret--yeah you get the picture.)
tl;dr Rain is dumb. I bitch a lot. Waaah~
BKC you are being very close minded. Sandslash is blazing fast under sand and has ok power and coverage, making it the perfect revenge killer, and an ok sweeper. Not to mention that its fast Rapid Spin will be a boon for offensive sand teams. Sandlash is mediocre right now because it doesn't have double Speed all the time, so many times it ends up outsped and killed or not so useful in general. Same with Stoutland. Perfect revenge killer and cleaner, as well as a pain in the ass for offensive teams. Not to mention that those two can be partnered together and demolish offensive teams.
The added SpD on Terrakion alone is not the problem sure, but imagine a Terrakion that is difficult to revenge kill with most special attacks... 323 HP / 324 SpD are the stats of Terrakion under sandstorm and you tell me that this won't make Terrakion better than it is?(like it needs any help)
So all those factors combined are very likely to make sand teams a headache to everyone and even broken.
Finally, your last sentence doesn't many any sense. ''No one said that sand wouldn't be broken because it wouldn't''. What do you mean by that? And i never said that because sand may be broken we shouldn't ban rain and/or sun.
The added SpD on Terrakion alone is not the problem sure, but imagine a Terrakion that is difficult to revenge kill with most special attacks... 323 HP / 324 SpD are the stats of Terrakion under sandstorm and you tell me that this won't make Terrakion better than it is?(like it needs any help)
So all those factors combined are very likely to make sand teams a headache to everyone and even broken.
Finally, your last sentence doesn't many any sense. ''No one said that sand wouldn't be broken because it wouldn't''. What do you mean by that? And i never said that because sand may be broken we shouldn't ban rain and/or sun.
Nah, Sandslash sucks, I've tried it a lot, and it is just horribly underwhelming. Not only can it not switch in to like...anything relatively powerful, but it also can't outrun any semi-fast Scarf mon without a Jolly nature, which makes it even weaker than it already is. Stoutland is legit, but it's not even remotely close to broken. They're easy to wall with or without weather. Sun/rain abusers aren't.
I honestly doubt that if we ban Terrakion, it'll be because it got extra SpD in sand. It might be a sort of icing-on-the-cake thing, but it sure as hell won't actually be a primary argument against it, more like "oh btw its hard to revenge with sp atks".
What I meant by the last sentence is that no one mentioned sand being broken, which you implied they had by saying "what makes people so certain that in a Sand only meta, Sand wouldn't be broken". It was also implied by that same sentence that you thought Sand's potential brokenness was a reason to not ban sun/rain, but if not, then that's great.
I honestly doubt that if we ban Terrakion, it'll be because it got extra SpD in sand. It might be a sort of icing-on-the-cake thing, but it sure as hell won't actually be a primary argument against it, more like "oh btw its hard to revenge with sp atks".
What I meant by the last sentence is that no one mentioned sand being broken, which you implied they had by saying "what makes people so certain that in a Sand only meta, Sand wouldn't be broken". It was also implied by that same sentence that you thought Sand's potential brokenness was a reason to not ban sun/rain, but if not, then that's great.
Outside of SubPass Celebi (which I used extensively to address that issue), running Baton Pass means you sacrifice the more utility of Perish Song and Thunder Wave to check threats, not just escape them.
In order for either of these Pokes to be effective checks, you must be running rain yourself to maintain passive damage recovery (again a case of running your own weather to address an opponent's).
By the way, even in Rain, your standard Tentacruel (Bold non-SubToxic) takes minimum 51% from Hydro Pump. That means even with Rain Dish+Protect just a small amount prior damage, 10%, means that you can be 2HKO'ed by two minimum damage rolls with SR on the field. The way it goes (-12 - 51 + 12 = - 51% health) _--> + 12 = -39% health ---> -51% health = -90% damage
Even if you have that 10% safety net your Tentacruel is still coming out at with 33% health at the end of the 4th turn (hydro --->> protect -->> hydro ---> protect)
This nitpick is distracting from the main point in that weather teams have a clear and distinctive advantage over non-weather teams (especially rain and sun). Here is an exampling demonstrating this n response to Pocket:
these are the Pokemon non-weather have to run in order to make sure Keldeo's rain boosted Hydro Pump does not 2HKO them. The point where a poke can get 2HKO'ed is when Hydro Pump does 53% minimium, at 52% you avoid the 2HKO (100-53+6-53=0) . Note that this list is without SR down and requires 2 minmium rolls for a lot of Pokes.
Water Immune Pokes - Jellicent, Toxicroack, Gastrodon, lolVaporeon
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Multiscale Dragonite in rain: 20.46 - 24.09%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Multiscale Dragonite in rain: 26.68 - 31.34%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite in rain: 28.23 - 33.16%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite in rain: 33.74 - 39.62%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite in rain: 33.95 - 39.81%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite in rain: 34.05 - 39.93%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in rain: 39.26 - 46.47%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Celebi in rain: 39.6 - 46.78%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragonite in rain: 40.93 - 48.18%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 47.15 - 55.68%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias in rain: 48.07 - 56.86%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon in rain: 49.46 - 58.31%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W in rain: 50.49 - 59.4%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel in rain: 51.37 - 60.71%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent in rain: 52.1 - 61.53%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Multiscale Dragonite in rain: 20.46 - 24.09%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Multiscale Dragonite in rain: 26.68 - 31.34%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite in rain: 28.23 - 33.16%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite in rain: 33.74 - 39.62%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite in rain: 33.95 - 39.81%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite in rain: 34.05 - 39.93%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in rain: 39.26 - 46.47%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Celebi in rain: 39.6 - 46.78%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragonite in rain: 40.93 - 48.18%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 47.15 - 55.68%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias in rain: 48.07 - 56.86%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon in rain: 49.46 - 58.31%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W in rain: 50.49 - 59.4%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel in rain: 51.37 - 60.71%
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent in rain: 52.1 - 61.53%
So from this list we have gathered that these Pokemon are necessary (and why they get destroyed when another factor comes into play):
Gastrodon - Cleanly 2HKO'ed by Keldeo's Secret Sword (does a massive chunk with 2/3'rds of your health gone minimium)
Jellicent - The best non-rain counter. Only Pursuit that can get this guy found on rain teams is Weaville)
Vaporeon - 79.3% chance of getting 2HKO'ed by Secret Sword (want to rely on a Stone Edge miss for your counter?)
Toxicroak - Needs Rain to function aka not viable on other archtypes but rain
Dragonite: Only Max HP / Max+ Sp. Def variants are not 2HKO'ed with SR in play
Latias: Another great counter and is the only one to outspeed Keldeo. However, constantly forced to recover in order to avoid 2HKO's in the future. Can also be pursuit trapped by Scizor easily.
Tentacruel: 2hko'ed by rain pumps with only 10% damage+SR
Amoonguss: 2HKO'ed by rain pumps with prior damage (non-recovery outside of switching)
Ferrothorn: Smashed by Secret Sword
Sp. Def Rotom-W: 2HKO'ed by Secret Sword
Blissey/Chansey: Smashed by Secret Sword
Celebi: Another good counter, but can be pursuit trapped by Scizor *without Baton Pass
Roserade: 2HKO'ed by Rain Hydro Pump after SR
Jellicent - The best non-rain counter. Only Pursuit that can get this guy found on rain teams is Weaville)
Vaporeon - 79.3% chance of getting 2HKO'ed by Secret Sword (want to rely on a Stone Edge miss for your counter?)
Toxicroak - Needs Rain to function aka not viable on other archtypes but rain
Dragonite: Only Max HP / Max+ Sp. Def variants are not 2HKO'ed with SR in play
Latias: Another great counter and is the only one to outspeed Keldeo. However, constantly forced to recover in order to avoid 2HKO's in the future. Can also be pursuit trapped by Scizor easily.
Tentacruel: 2hko'ed by rain pumps with only 10% damage+SR
Amoonguss: 2HKO'ed by rain pumps with prior damage (non-recovery outside of switching)
Ferrothorn: Smashed by Secret Sword
Sp. Def Rotom-W: 2HKO'ed by Secret Sword
Blissey/Chansey: Smashed by Secret Sword
Celebi: Another good counter, but can be pursuit trapped by Scizor *without Baton Pass
Roserade: 2HKO'ed by Rain Hydro Pump after SR
So effectively your options for dealing with Choice Specs Keldeo on a non-weather team are Jellicent, Latias, Dragonite with good Rapid Spin support, and Celebi (two can be pursuit trapped by a common rain member scizor). If this doesn't demonstrate how badly non-weather crumbles to Choice Specs Keldeo in Rain I don't know what will. The pressure keeps on coming with a team mate with additional powerful Hydro Pumps such as Politoed, Rotom-W, and Starmie.
But weather teams don't suffer this disadvantage since they can curve the power of those Hydro Pumps. This is a reason why many teams, especially defensive ones, slap on a Tyranitar and Hippowdon, because you can expand your answer to powerful Hydro Pumps outside of those 4. Pokes included in this expansion include Amoonguss, Roserade, Tentacruel, Bulky Starmie, Gyarados, less bulky Dragonite, and Latios.
edit@4:31 @alexwolf those non-weather teams you gave us earlier which two ran 3 Pokemon to take rain Hydro Pumps (Savior, Season Unending) and the other being an offensive team running 2 Pokemon that were faster than Keldeo and both used Psyshock indicates to me how much you have to prepare for it than anything else...
I do agree with you; however, there are plenty of rain counters out there. Rotom-W, Vaporeon, Celebi, Amoonguss, Ferrothorn, Kingdra, other auto- weather inducers, Virizion, Gastrodon, Lati@s, Jellicent... and the list goes on. There are also plenty of sand, hail, and sun team counters. The fun in all this is finding a way to fit these weather resistors on your team and keep it fun, cool, highly competitive, and creative. This era is probably the weather era. Watch nintendo bring out a freeze status move and a trick room and fog inducer next generation... we'll probably be doing want we want to do now: banning them because they make the OU metagame much harder to compete in. But thats besides the point.
When someone brings out the weather, its up to you to find a way around it. IMO, it's a lot of fun finding ways to destroy these cookie cutter teams. XD While it might be a burden to fit in these pokemon, its not hard to find a pokemon who can stop weather teams and share a role with a pokemon with whom you want to use.
Thats my two cents again :P
I agree with Katakiri.
Drizzle just increase the power creep, and balance nothing except sun, which just increase the power creep itself.
I voted for the Drizzle option, because sand would probably not be so broken, and hail certainly not so I don't see them banned. If there would have been an Drizzle + Drought option, I would have voted for this since Sun is extremely powerful when let.
Drizzle just increase the power creep, and balance nothing except sun, which just increase the power creep itself.
I voted for the Drizzle option, because sand would probably not be so broken, and hail certainly not so I don't see them banned. If there would have been an Drizzle + Drought option, I would have voted for this since Sun is extremely powerful when let.
Ferrothorn is not a reliable Rain counter (I used SpecsZone on a Rain team for the sole purpose of beating Ferrothorn; that, and it's not particularly uncommon to see Toxicroak on a Rain team and Sub Tentacruel will generally outstall Ferrothorn because Scald will eventually burn). Celebi loses to Tornadus. Kingdra is shit against any non-Rain team. Gastrodon is just bad in general; Ferrothorn is not uncommon on Rain teams and just shits all over Gastrodon. Virizion also loses to Tornadus. Any decent Rain team is going to pack ways to get past Water resists (Tornadus, Electric-types, etc). This isn't rocket science.
Fun is really subjective, but in my honest opinion there is no way weather metagames are fun. I want a weather counter, sure, but I also want a weather counter that's actually good outside of countering weather. If you're not facing a Rain team, Gastrodon is a piece of shit. Hell, if the Rain team has Ferrothorn (which it probably will), Gastrodon is even shit against them.
Let me ask you something: What does Rain balance? Nothing. Well, maybe Sun, but if we ban Drizzle and Sun ends up being broken, then we ban Sun too. It's that simple, and a whole lot simpler than what we've been doing. In my opinion, when you have a complex ban (at the moment I am very strongly against complex bans) and multiple Pokemon bans just to keep something in OU, something's wrong. We should have banned Drizzle when we had the chance.
Fun is really subjective, but in my honest opinion there is no way weather metagames are fun. I want a weather counter, sure, but I also want a weather counter that's actually good outside of countering weather. If you're not facing a Rain team, Gastrodon is a piece of shit. Hell, if the Rain team has Ferrothorn (which it probably will), Gastrodon is even shit against them.
Let me ask you something: What does Rain balance? Nothing. Well, maybe Sun, but if we ban Drizzle and Sun ends up being broken, then we ban Sun too. It's that simple, and a whole lot simpler than what we've been doing. In my opinion, when you have a complex ban (at the moment I am very strongly against complex bans) and multiple Pokemon bans just to keep something in OU, something's wrong. We should have banned Drizzle when we had the chance.
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