Reflecting on BW and Looking Ahead to Gen VI - SEE POST #508

[TheStriker]

Gen VI needs a pokemon that could induce fog. Fog is a strange weather, but it seems that the 20% drop in accuracy makes moves like Hydro Pump a weak piece of crap, same with Fire Blast, Draco Meteor, Stone Edge, and even Hi Jump Kick which might make Mienshao not viable in OU. Anyways, it may even get a boost as well. Defog misght get a boost of temporarily removing fog for the turn it is used and get 120 Base Power making it a reliable STAB move on stuff like Thundurus-T (if it gets it). The counter-productive rapid spin would be annoying but considering that you use a magic bounce espeon, it could work. But this is pretty much what is most wanted in Gen VI.

1) Defensive Ghost/Steel + Levitate
2) Defensive Water/Dragon

Those would make stall a lot easier to play and weatherless too

3) Offensive Dragon/Fighting or Dragon/Fire (in OU, Reshiram is Ubers)
4) Defensive Grass + Thick Fat
5) Electric type priority
6) Ice/Fire + Magic Gaurd
7) Eviolite ban with new evolutions to already defensive behemoths like Ferrothorn and Jellicent would be cool
8) Normal/Fighting with Reversal + Flail + Shadow Sneak + Swords Dance would be cool.

I hope Gamefreak understands Zapdos needs Hurricane. Lightningrod with Agility, Thunder, Hurricane, and Hidden Power Water would be awesome in rain.

 

[Codraroll]

Sound, I don't think they would change the type chart so drastically (or heck, anything at all). There are two major reasons:

1) It would alienate fans who have played the previous games. Part of GameFreak's success formula is that every game is made so that if you've played one, you can pick up another and play it much the same way. The type chart has been unchanged for more than ten years, and it's obvious that GameFreaks think it works (otherwise, they would have changed it earlier). Apart from the Physical/Special split, they have never removed stuff from the game mechanics, only added to them. Fans of the previous games would not be pleased having to re-learn a new type chart.

2) The type chart is balanced well enough for most purposes. It is only "broken" the way we play the game. Pokémon is an adventure game first and foremost, and the metagame springs out from that. GameFreak wouldn't make drastic changes to their success formula just to give stall a buff in competitive play. It would be like Super Mario Galaxy removing Luigi's slipping between the two games, to make it easier for speedrunners. Most of the people buying the Pokémon games never fight competitively beyond a match with a friend or two. It should be obvious that our play style has to adapt to the choices and preferences of GameFreak, rather than the other way round. If we find stuff too broken, we do something about it (ban it). That doesn't stop GameFreak from implementing it in their next game.

 

[Huntofthelion]

Okay. So, if we can't discuss the stuff we could get next gen to make the metagame healthier because GF doesn't care about us, what do we discuss here? No really, I'm asking.

So this thread has kinda gotten a little derailed / terrible in the past few pages so here are some reminders:

• No one liners, or "yeah that's cool" posts. Always have some content and contribute to the discussion at hand or help foster new discussion. This is not a pc++ thread.
  
• This thread is strictly competitive, anything flavor or in game related belongs in the orange islands thread.
  
• Keep speculating to a minimum, this means refrain from discussing huge mechanic changes or changes to already existing concepts.
  
• That said, proposing new concepts that already fit into what we have is fine, provided you explain why you think it would help create a positive metagame. Saying you want something because it would be cool or because you want your favorite pokemon to get better is really not what we're looking for.

Remember those things when posting. This thread should pick up in terms of quality and produce some better discussions then the ones that have been developing. Thanks.

Stick to those guidelines and you'll be good to go, there may or may not be big mechanic changes but they are difficult to predict and there is no indication yet that there will be a mechanic change. You're fine discussing new type combinations, new builds of pokemon, and new moves, just not major overhauls to game mechanics.

 

[Sound]

Ah, my apologies. I'll delete my previous posts. I'd still like to see either Recover get better distrabution, sleep mechanics back to 4th gen, or more Recover substitutes for other types. All of those would benefit Stall a good deal more than simply new pokemon. Unfortnately, pretty much the only way to reliably fight a power creep that only affects certain elements is, in my experience, a power creep on the other end of the specturm, which is sad.

 

[HabibsHotDogs]

A nice way to deal with weather sweepers:

Dragon/Grass
Ability: Cloud Nine
80/120/90/105/95/110 (600 BST)
OR
70/115/80/105/75/95 (540 BST)

Learns: Power whip, leaf blade, draco meteor, draco rush, dragon claw, dragon pulse, giga drain, solarbeam, fire blast and hone claws (no other steroid moves, except maybe coil or a new one).

Checks excadrill with fire blast or power whip. Checks kingdra with dragon pulse or claw, checks venusaur with fire blast or d meteor, revenges basically everything less threatening than these 3 with a few exceptions (armaldo, stoutland, etc) which is a good thing.

Now GF why not introduce a pokemon like the above with cloud nine!! not a gimmicky lickylicky/golduck/altaria that can hardly make use of their ability!

A pokemon that learnt fire blast and had cloud nine is infinitely more useful than one that has cloud nine with hydro pump (lol golduck). If Golduck was fire type it'd probably be close to OU viable considering it's an option for also hitting Jirachi and Ferro in their home territory.

 

[haunter]

They should first change the mechanics of how Cloud Nine works. By the way, a pure Dragon type would be easier to switch into Politoed\Ninetales being resistant to fire and not 4x weak to ice.

 

[Lunar Fist]

I'm pretty sure that Eevee has evolved into every type that was "special" in Gen I/II, except for Dragon.

Also,

Gen IV brought new evolutions for a lot of older Pokémon (Gligar, Magmar, Electabuzz, Murkrow, Midreavus, Magneton, etc.). Do you think Gen VI will bring any new evolutions to Gen I-V Pokémon? Anything that might be viable?

People have talked about Skarmory getting an evolution. I doubt that will happen, but if it did, both Skarm and its evolution would likely be viable. I think maybe Girafarig may get an evolution since it doesn't evolve and has pretty terrible stats and movepool. Similarly, Tropius might get an evolution.

Both of these pokemon would have to gain pretty significant buffs to move up in tiering, but can you guys think of any other pokes that could plausibly get an evolution? (Not Farfetch'd)

Torkoal? Solrock/Lunatone? Relicanth? This is hard to predict and most of my guesses seem unlikely. What do you think?

 

[un?lucky]

So I know this subject is a bit controversial and has been brought up on many occasions but I seriously hope there is some kind of Nerf to stealth rocks. I think the simplest way this could be done is just to have a timer on the number of turns It is active. Perhaps disappearing after 3-5 turns or having a set limit of 5 turns. This means the the user actually has to maintain it compared to a click and forget mentality that is currently present. Doing this would also not really impact the double meta game (where it was designed for?) as matches generally last much sorter anyway.

As others have suggested, more rapid spinners will definitely help but the old spin blocker war will still be there, with the blockers generally winning unless some type of special pursuit gets invented. A different move that takes away different spikes would also be an interesting addition, such as gust removing only one type of spikes etc

Also mentioning a little of the type charts. I know it has only been changed once, to balance out psychic's in the first gen but I'd argue the dragon typing is getting pretty close to being broken. Only having 1 resist and 2 weaknesses resembles 1st gen psychics closely with 1st gen psychics only having 1 resist to themselves and having 2 weaknesses, granted their weaknesses in bug and ghost did not have any viable attacking moves at the time.

In saying that I really doubt they'd change anything to do with typing but I'd understand it if they did, with even one more resist making a massive difference to the metagame.

 

[keleyeemoh]

Gen IV brought new evolutions for a lot of older Pokémon (Gligar, Magmar, Electabuzz, Murkrow, Midreavus, Magneton, etc.). Do you think Gen VI will bring any new evolutions to Gen I-V Pokémon? Anything that might be viable?

People have talked about Skarmory getting an evolution. I doubt that will happen, but if it did, both Skarm and its evolution would likely be viable. I think maybe Girafarig may get an evolution since it doesn't evolve and has pretty terrible stats and movepool. Similarly, Tropius might get an evolution.

Both of these pokemon would have to gain pretty significant buffs to move up in tiering, but can you guys think of any other pokes that could plausibly get an evolution? (Not Farfetch'd)

Torkoal? Solrock/Lunatone? Relicanth? This is hard to predict and most of my guesses seem unlikely. What do you think?

I want a Houndoom evolution (Houndemon or something) so badly.

Also mentioning a little of the type charts. I know it has only been changed once, to balance out psychic's in the first gen but I'd argue the dragon typing is getting pretty close to being broken. Only having 1 resist and 2 weaknesses resembles 1st gen psychics closely with 1st gen psychics only having 1 resist to themselves and having 2 weaknesses, granted their weaknesses in bug and ghost did not have any viable attacking moves at the time.

Actually, Psychic was only weak to Bug in gen 1. It was immune to Ghost, although this was probably an error, as someone in (I think) Sabrina's gym said that Psychic-types only fear Bug- and Ghost-types. But the fact remains that Psychic was immune to Ghost, and the only Bug-type attacks at the time were Leech Life, Twinneedle, and Pin Missile, all of which are LOL. Dragons have many more weaknesses.

 

[UltiMario]

They should first change the mechanics of how Cloud Nine works. By the way, a pure Dragon type would be easier to switch into Politoed\Ninetales being resistant to fire and not 4x weak to ice.

Or even more preferably, a Dragon/Water. 4x resist Ninetales and Politoed, can STAB HPump TTar through a lack of SS, and can't get nailed by Abomasnow Blizzards.

 

[HabibsHotDogs]

I want a Houndoom evolution (Houndemon or something) so badly.

I had a really fitting name idea for a houndoom evolution but i forgot it. For now here's one:

Houndour > Houndoom > Houndem (like "condemn")

It's not that houndoom is my "favourite pokemon" but rather that an evolution would fill so many gaps in OU right now. We need an aggressive fire type not called infernape as its stabs are resisted by common rain threats (Tentacruel, Tornadus-T in rain, etc). Decent offenses on the evo, despite crippling defences will keep such an evolution relevant and with decent sp. def, it might even make a useable sunny day 'mon. It'd also make a great addition to the select group of pokemon in OU that can viably pursuit.

Knowing GF, they'll probably evolve Breloom though, we all know who GF's favourites are -.-

In terms of filling voids in OU that has made the meta what it is today, here are some mons that would be lovely with an evolution (and "somewhat" fill the pre-evolution "criteria"):

Ninetales (better chances for sun)
Parasect (rain wall/counter)
Golduck (Would be good with focused/better stats)
Lanturn (Dat bulky electric void)
Sudowoodoo (This is totally in a section of the pokedex filled with version different pre-evo's, check it out)
Plusle/Minun (probably going to happen!)
Volbeat/Illumise (This pair will probably get troll evolutions)
Torkoal (Rapid spin + Bulky fire void, too much pressure on 'tran)
Tropius (Looks very likely to at the very least have a pre-evo based on patterns)
Pachirisu (Looks likely with the aforementioned "pattern")
Audino (a mixed/special wall + wish pass)
Basculin (It just looks like its gonna happen lol, another priority (ab)user)
Maractus (Seems likely to happen, seems like it has potential)
Emolga (see above)
Heatmor/Durant (gimmicky mons atm but they have potential, especially durant)


The primary difference between this generation upcoming and generation 4 is that prior to generation 4, it seemed like so many pokemon were custom designed JUST to evolve later, GF must have used that as a marketing trick but I can't see much similar pokemon now.

-Aipom + Yanma + Murkrow appear near each other
-Gligar + Sneasel + Pilloswine all appear near each other

Considering mons such as Houndoom, Donphan and Stantler appear near each other... could we possible speculate an evo group here, etc.

I won't be surprised if GF evolves an already good pokemon like Medicham though (it only needs mach punch!!), Tangela and Rhyperior got the buff sticks despite being rather decent mons.

 

[Hemp Man]

Ghost was supposed to be Super Effective on Psychic in Gen 1 but a glitch made it so Psychic was immune to Ghost. That being said, even if Ghost was SE on Psychic it wouldn't have made a difference - "Lick" had low Base Power and Gengar is weak to Psychic anyway.

Torkoal (Rapid spin + Bulky fire void, too much pressure on 'tran)

Sadly I still think Heatran will be preferred as it isn't SR weak, unless the Torkoal evolution got something like the Regenerator ability.

 

[Eggbert]

Heatran wouldn't be the same with drought. Remember, if heatran had drought it would suddenly be 2HKOd by strong fire mons instead of walling them to death. Infernape actually wouldn't be that bad. It is neutral to stealth rock, has mach punch to prevent trapping by dugtrio, has slack off, stealth rock, u-turn...

 

[Rapti]

I noticed nobody has mentined this
http://www.gamefreak.co.jp/blog/dir_english/?p=561

more specifically this part "A new battle mechanism that allows your Pokémon to become even more powerful when the bonds you share grow stronger."

so it seem that friendship values will be a lot more important in this generation, hopefully by "powerful" it's not meant simply an offensive increase

 

[alexwolf]

Eggbert if Heatran got Drought it would go straight to Ubers. Ninetales is in top 20 usage with a BST of 505, worse typing, and worse movepool. Not to mention that with Drought Heatran could also wall any defensive Water-type (Politoed, Tentacruel, Jellicent, Starmie, you name it).

 

[Schpoonman]

Kingdra has poor stats compared to other OU threats; it's really only ever shined because it has Swift Swim.

I think what Ulti is thinking of is something that would split the difference between Kingdra and Palkia, but possibly more defensive.

EDIT: That too.

 

[alexwolf]

Tbh even with Cloud Nine wouldn't be so good. Actually i think Swift Swim Kingdra is better. You still can switch into water attacks, and in top of that you can also outspeed everything and sweep them with double-STAB moves. Against sun, Kingdra can use Rain Dance and once again proceed to destroy everything! What would Kingdra's use be with Cloud Nine? Outspeeding Venusaur in Sun? Avoid the sand damage. Anything else?

 

[UltiMario]

Kingdra's stats suck, that's why Cloud Nine wouldn't be amazing on it.

Something more fit for the ability would do it better justice. Especially if Cloud Nine got the buff it deserves in removing weather, making it viable switch-in into weather starters.

 

[alexwolf]

Cloud nine needs to be on either something very defensive or very offensive to be useful. If the Cloud Nine mon is very defensive it will be able to tank attacks from the various weather abusers, and if it is very offensive it will be able to outspeed speed demons such as Venusaur and Stoutland, as well as use whatever moves it wants without worrying about weather nerfing them, or sand cutting its lifespan short.

 

[Sidfrid]

Sorry for changing the current course of the conversation, but I feel we need more type theorymoning, and here are a few thoughts:

Dual typed Dragon/Fighting pokemon, I mean this one may be Uber right away:

Supereffective hits on: Rock, Ice, Steel, Normal, Dark and Dragon

This will surely make for a "no safe switch-in" pokemon. You predicted a furious Outrage and send over Ferrothorn? You will get obliterated by STAB Close Combat. Of course that typing will call for a physical pokemon, because if result in a special biased pokemon, his fighting type would be wasted (Aura Sphere anyone?).

Resistance: Fire, Grass, Water, Electric, Bug, Dark, Rock (SR resistance!) (if you find this too much resistance for a non-steel type pokemon Rotom-H have 7 resistance too and even a 4x one)

Here we have a combination of usually special types and usually physical types. Resisting the FWG core really come in handy, and you resist Megahorn and Stone Edge two of the most deadly physical attacks, no one care about resisting Dark type.

Weakness: Ice, Dragon, Psychic (uhh, i'm scared...), Flying

Four weakness, just four weakness and you got SIX supereffective hits, this is surelly OP!! But all those weakness can be worked around, I mean there are a lot of pokemons with that weakness in OU and they are still OU (and some are Ubers), and there are pokemon with more (and common) weakness that are OU (I'm looking at you Terrakion).

All is great right?... right? The only thing that may keep this mighty beast at bay could be Ghost typed pokemon since there are inmune to one of you offensive options, and if we get the fabbled Ghost/Steel pokemon (Kitsunoh!!), that will surely be OU along with it. Ghost types tend to learn Will-O-Wisp, that will just cripple the physical one, and if this theoretical pokemon result in a Special Dragon/Fighting will be low OU for sure.

But all that talk is just about Typing, but a pokemon is more like that, you need an usable ability, stats (Hydreigon have a nice offensive typing, but really lackluster speed that keep him in low OU), and not to mention learnset (now I don't remember any example of a good pokemon with terrible learnset, but maybe someone do). Now guys what do you think about this *still* theoretical pocket monster?

 

[HabibsHotDogs]

I'll tell you now, if this fighting dragon had dragonite-esque stats and a semi useable movepool it would at the very worst be top of OU. If it has Salamence or Garchomp-esque stats (especially Garchomp) it'd almost certainly be pushed into uber zone unless GF introduces some changes of epic proportions to keep it in check or a terrible ability like defeatist (still... SR resistant).

Dual dragon typings with exploitable weaknesses/limitations are not only more balanced for OU, but also will do more for benefiting the metagame, as opposed to hindering it.

Some dragon dual types i'd like to see.

Dragon/Grass - limited by another x4 ice weakness and coverage, good defensive pivot type as well
Dragon/Fire - limited by rain and SR weakness
Dragon/Bug - limited by redundant coverage (most bulky psychics won't like meteors or outrages anyway, also has mediocre resistances/SR weak for defensive stat distributions)
Dragon/Rock - This could look really bad ass, limited by coverage unless it learns fire blast

etc.


I don't think a dragon/steel, dragon/water, dragon/fight would be healthy for the metagame assuming they get "suitable" stat distributions and movepools.

I'd like to see more of the Metagross and Tyranitar introductions, ie pseudo-legendary pokemon that aren't part dragon, that'd be great for the meta if we had less hyper powered dragons.

As far as existing dragons go, it'd be funny to see Salamence learn hurricane. Meteor + H pump + Hurricane would be incredible coverage in rain.

 

[Schpoonman]

But all that talk is just about Typing, but a pokemon is more like that, Hydreigon have a nice offensive typing but it stats just keep it low OU, and not to mention learnset

Hydreigon has everything it needs to be absurdly successful in OU except for a better base speed and better typing. It has quite possibly the single-best movepool in OU (Jirachi is the only one that immediately comes to mind that has a comparable movepool, and I'd still say Hydreigon has the edge), really only lacking Thunderbolt/Thunder for coverage.

Sorry, I realize this is horribly off topic (Aura Sphere/Thunderbolt 4 Hydreigon in Gen VI), but I felt like that needed to be addressed.

EDIT: Habib, after looking at your post, I think you didn't realize just how incredible Dragon/Bug would be. Several Steels in OU have a Psychic sub-typing (Jirachi most prominently), and that would be their undoing when they're hit with STAB Bug Buzz.

 

[Siggu]

EDIT: Habib, after looking at your post, I think you didn't realize just how incredible Dragon/Bug would be. Several Steels in OU have a Psychic sub-typing (Jirachi most prominently), and that would be their undoing when they're hit with STAB Bug Buzz.

In that case you could very well have a Dragon/Fighting pokémon, much like Sidfrid said

It may probably be the single best typing combination in the game:
- Ridiculous type coverage, combining Fighting amazing super-effective coverage and Dragon's near-perfect neutral coverage
- Unresisted dual STABs as of Gen V (Don't even bother mentioning Shedinja). Ghost/Steel is the only typing combination that could resist it
- Seven resistances, including Rock, Dark (Pursuit) and both components of Volt-Turn. How many pokémon (Not only those with a clearly offensive-oriented typing) can not only boast the number of resistances they have but also the KIND of resistances they have?
- Four weaknesses that are not only resisted by almost all steels but they can be nearly completely got under control by slapping a Bronzong (And Jirachi, but you would get a Ground weakness our Dragon/Fighting buddy cannot cover) as a partner, resisting those four types and not being weak to almost all the coverage move types they may have (Fire, a type Dragon/Fighting resists, being the only exception)

Stats (And/or a potentially crippling ability) would be the only things that would stop a Dragon/Fighting pokémon from being top OU, if not Uber

 

[keleyeemoh]

Dragon/Fire - limited by rain and SR weakness

I find it ridiculous that the only Dragon/Fire we have is Reshiram, considering that DRAGONS BREATHE FIRE.

As far as the Dragon/Fighting thing goes, I'd love for it to be introduced as a counterpart to the proposed Ghost/Steel Pokémon.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Stats (And/or a potentially crippling ability) would be the only things that would stop a Dragon/Fighting pokémon from being top OU, if not Uber

Best STAB: Hammer Arm

Then suddenly Jirachi, Skarmory, Bronzong, Metagross, *check* Scizor and Forretress can kind of check it.