Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Team 2 won!]

ganj4lF

Nobody is safe from the power of science!
is a Team Rater Alumnus
Just saying, but a new rule was indeed prepared to avoid these situations; me and NixHex originally planned to have the last pokemon selected "blindly" (aka: split userbase in two groups, use social groups to decide the last pokemon of each team). However, this CtP, at least in the final phases, had a much smaller amount of users regularly involved than the previous one (although it regained quite a number of people in the last two picks, I was forced to start a vote with only two submissions not much time ago). Splitting the userbase seemed a bad idea at that point (there was the clear risk of having only 2-3 active users per team), so we gave up on our idea. I hope I (or who will host the Mk IV) will have enough participation to actually test this idea and to see if it effectively solves the problem; too bad that I couldn't do in this edition due to the previously mentioned problems.
 

Reymedy

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Okay there is an Infernape. It does OHKO almost everything.
Hm like mine ? But mine could also kill the scarfer and take a hit.
Why don't you talk about it Mewtwo ? Why don't you say, that Keldeo does also revenge kill it (like you do for Volcarona, but at least Volcarona can boost and then Keldeo is helpless).
And the issue is Scizor, but it's also your Skarmory. Don't think you're not also the culprit of this situation. Half the picks in this project are yours. This thing in itself is already ridiculous, but to be honest, the fight won't even be interesting because there are tons of flaws in the teams and this is something you cannot deny. Now that I look at Skarmory, why in the world it does not have Brave Bird. You really thought you were be peacefully stack spikes and sr ?

So why my Infernape was not picked already ? Ah yes, it can't wall the sweepers of the opposing team.
This one does not at all too, it's even worse. How do you deal with Keldeo's coverage ? Secret Sword can still wreck his "counter". He can't come on Keldeo and gets outsped.
Oh, I forgot, mine also had SR.

Don't get me wrong this is a good nomination, especially as it shows all the contradictions in here. I don't even want to read what you'll try to find to justify the situation once again.



PS : I think the blind picks are also the good idea. Or, you can add an extra round, in which each team can change one thing after the 6 picks.
But I also think that the nominations were just leaving so many flaws that the situation became ridiculous. It's because they weren't wise, and did not take into account the futures picks at all (but they claimed that they do).
 
The keldeo's set is really good, but the fact that it have to rely on LO is bad, since team 2 can just play around it and revenge kill with keldeo when is in the ko range of secret sword.
Also keldeo don't have set up opportunities against heatran and skarmory because they can phaze you as you set up, so the only pokemon that you can use cm is scizor, and if he use bug bite + bullet punch, with lo recoil + SR you are in ko range of secret sword. Your opponent will doesn't lets you set up since he know that keldeo is the biggest threat of their team.
So, it does the same job than infernape, but have more difficult to OKHO celebi and can have problem with the lo recoil. Also, infernape have mach punch, and if you manage to get the opponent's keldeo at 25% of his health, you win.
The only advantage I see over infernape, is that he can deal some damage to keldeo before dying to 2 secret sword (don't forget the lo recoil)
 
Okay there is an Infernape. It does OHKO almost everything.
Hm like mine ? But mine could also kill the scarfer and take a hit.
Why don't you talk about it Mewtwo ? Why don't you say, that Keldeo does also revenge kill it (like you do for Volcarona, but at least Volcarona can boost and then Keldeo is helpless).
The reason why I feel Ape is a far stronger choice than Volcarona (as well as the other suggestions, believe or not I'm not trying to pick on you) is because it has a SR neutrality, doesn't take LO recoil and can blindly CC/Fthrower/U-Turn its way all over the opposing team. We could try to bring in Keldeo to revenge kill it (which is the best thing Team 2 can do sadly) except that won't accomplish nearly as much as it does with Volca since Ape doesn't lose half its HP being forced to switch out.

And the issue is Scizor, but it's also your Skarmory. Don't think you're not also the culprit of this situation. Half the picks in this project are yours. This thing in itself is already ridiculous, but to be honest, the fight won't even be interesting because there are tons of flaws in the teams and this is something you cannot deny. Now that I look at Skarmory, why in the world it does not have Brave Bird. You really thought you were be peacefully stack spikes and sr ?
I had asked others opinions at the time and that moveslot changed a lot. Brave Bird was considered one of the lesser options as it ate up Skarm's HP and let Cube get easy setup. (Even with Ape going to be picked I still feel Whirlwind was better for these reasons.)

So why my Infernape was not picked already ? Ah yes, it can't wall the sweepers of the opposing team.
This one does not at all too, it's even worse. How do you deal with Keldeo's coverage ? Secret Sword can still wreck his "counter". He can't come on Keldeo and gets outsped.
Oh, I forgot, mine also had SR.
Different sets for different teams under different circumstances. This Ape can switch into any of Scizor's attacks at least 3-4 times while threatening to sweep the rest of the team and without the fear of any counter picks taking advantage of it. Your's couldn't switch into Mamoswine more than once (and had to predict to come in on Heracross) while having a weaker matchup against the opposing team who still had a pick left that they could use to counter it.

Don't get me wrong this is a good nomination, especially as it shows all the contradictions in here. I don't even want to read what you'll try to find to justify the situation once again.
It's the perfect nomination, you can't legitimately ask any more out of it. I'll put this in hide tags so you view the thread without looking at my responses if you like.

PS : I think the blind picks are also the good idea. Or, you can add an extra round, in which each team can change one thing after the 6 picks.
But I also think that the nominations were just leaving so many flaws that the situation became ridiculous. It's because they weren't wise, and did not take into account the futures picks at all (but they claimed that they do).
Of course there are holes, the project requires multiple people with very varied team-building perspectives to put one together.
Responses in bold.


Just saying, but a new rule was indeed prepared to avoid these situations; me and NixHex originally planned to have the last pokemon selected "blindly" (aka: split userbase in two groups, use social groups to decide the last pokemon of each team).
Yeah, I think Ou had emptied out to speculate about Gen VI at that time. Perhaps another way of doing it is to have voters pick 2-3 of their favorite suggestions for the final picks of both teams and then have yourself (or whoever is running the project) randomly choose one of mons out of the two groups. Just spit-balling for now, it has the advantage of not requiring a split user-base but then makes pure luck a much larger factor. (whereas the blind picks could try to speculate and predict the other's pick much more)

The keldeo's set is really good, but the fact that it have to rely on LO is bad, since team 2 can just play around it and revenge kill with keldeo when is in the ko range of secret sword.

The only advantage I see over infernape, is that he can deal some damage to keldeo before dying to 2 secret sword (don't forget the lo recoil)
Yeah, LO is what is pushing me closer to Ape than Keldeo. As cool as surviving the Secret Sword is, taking out the Scizor counter and most dangerous offensive threat would definitely be worth sacking Keldeo over. After all, Revenge Killers are meant to be the safety net and "oh crap" button.
 
Still, with Raikou's ability to tank Keldeo's hits, I think it still helps Team 1 the most. Even without Calm Mind, it can survive Keldeo's strongest attack and take it down even after taking a round of Stealth Rock damage and Life Orb recoil, something that Infernape can't do. It's really the only thing separating the two at the moment. Otherwise, they both pretty much run through Team 2 like butter. Infernape OHKOs a little quicker, but Raikou OHKOs everything after a single Calm Mind and then CAN'T be revenged by Keldeo or Scizor. And it also doesn't lower its defenses with Close Combat, either. In the off chance it gets paralyzed by Celebi, it's not dead weight, either.
 
LOKeldeo does the same thing as Raikou (tank ScarfDeo) while countering Scizor (unlike Raikou) and making most of his KO's without CM anyways. I feel it honestly comes down to picking Ape or Keldeo (sorry I liked Raikou best until seeing them) and your personal preference of tanking Keldeo's attacks or being much harder to wear down.
 
LOKeldeo does the same thing as Raikou (tank ScarfDeo) while countering Scizor (unlike Raikou) and making most of his KO's without CM anyways. I feel it honestly comes down to picking Ape or Keldeo (sorry I liked Raikou best until seeing them) and your personal preference of tanking Keldeo's attacks or being much harder to wear down.
Raikou counters Scizor pretty effectively, actually, and Keldeo takes more from Secret Sword than Raikou after Calm Minds. But yeah, Ape is pretty destructive.
 
Raikou counters Scizor pretty effectively, actually, and Keldeo takes more from Secret Sword than Raikou after Calm Minds. But yeah, Ape is pretty destructive.
Raikou doesn't counters scizor pretty effectively. In case that you would be in 1v1 against scizor, that's what it's going to happen :

Turn 1
Raikou use calm mind
Scizor use bug bite, Raikou take 57,75% - 68,45%

Turn 2
Scizor use bullet punch, Raikou take 19,15% - 22,82%
Raikou use thunderbolt, Scizor is OKHO, Raikou lost some of his hp.

So Raikou is at 13,1% on his health in the best case, and dead in the worst case.
 

Reymedy

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is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Now what about a 1v1 with Infernape against Keldeo ? :\

Raikou can't be revenge killed, Infernape can. To me it shows the big gap between those two picks.
 
Raikou doesn't counters scizor pretty effectively. In case that you would be in 1v1 against scizor, that's what it's going to happen :

Turn 1
Raikou use calm mind
Scizor use bug bite, Raikou take 57,75% - 68,45%

Turn 2
Scizor use bullet punch, Raikou take 19,15% - 22,82%
Raikou use thunderbolt, Scizor is OKHO, Raikou lost some of his hp.

So Raikou is at 13,1% on his health in the best case, and dead in the worst case.
252+ SpA Life Orb Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 243-289 (80.19 - 95.37%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Raikou doesn't have to Calm Mind... Scizor needs just a tad bit of prior damage and it doesn't have a chance. Can't switch into anything but Signal Beam, either.
 
Now what about a 1v1 with Infernape against Keldeo ? :\

Raikou can't be revenge killed, Infernape can. To me it shows the big gap between those two picks.
You know you have 5 other pokemons on your team ? Rotom-w and Kyurem-B can take hydropump/surf all the day.
Also, raikou take 54,93% - 65,07% from hydro pump of keldeo, and with the lo recoil + SR, raikou can be rk by scizor (or team 2 have just to make few smart switch so raikou will die to life orb recoil...)
In paper, raikou and keldeo seems to be more effective because they can take 1 hit from keldeo, but in pratice, infernape is better because :
-No life orb recoil, so you can always go to the obvious move without worrying about the opponent's switch
-You totally counter scizor
-Infernape doesn't need to set up to murder team 2

In battle, you will find that life orb recoil will put pressure on raikou/keldeo, since if you overpredict wrong, you lose your best weapon, and if you go to the obvious move, you will die by life orb recoil.

252+ SpA Life Orb Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 243-289 (80.19 - 95.37%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Raikou doesn't have to Calm Mind... Scizor needs just a tad bit of prior damage and it doesn't have a chance. Can't switch into anything but Signal Beam, either.
When you said 1v1, it means to me "Both pokemon at full health".
Even in the case that scizor take a tad bit of prior damage before, scizor will use bullet punch, and if raikou take damage from Sr (or life orb recoil from a past attack) ,keldeo can rk him with hydropump.
 

Reymedy

ne craint personne
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
You know that each time Infernape does a kill, Keldeo will be switched in ? Now okay, they take HPump all day, but you know that Keldeo doesn't only have HPump ?

Catch Rotom-W with Secret Sword and it's over, same goes for Kyurem-B.

For the LO recoil, I prefer a pokemon dieing to a recoil after 10 turns, that one being outsped and OHKO'd. It's a question of flavour I guess.
 

Shurtugal

The Enterpriser.
is a Tiering Contributor
Secret Sword isn't going to be doing much to Impish Rotom-W imo. It should live a few Secret Swords just fine.
 
Rotom-W is here to counter keldeo , right ? This is why the majority of players pick him so it's not really a problem.
Infernape + Rotom-w beats all the team 2 easily, when raikou/keldeo have to think twice before making any move.
 

blitzlefan

shake it off!
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Rotom-W: 118-139 (38.94 - 45.87%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

well if I did the calcs right, then Rotom-W should do okay against Keldeo, barring a crit or a lot of residual damage.
 

ganj4lF

Nobody is safe from the power of science!
is a Team Rater Alumnus
Okay, let's vote! This will be the last vote of this project, since we'll pick Pokemon 6, Team 1. The possible entries are:


Rules are the same, won't list them again. Roughly 24 hours of time for the voters to cast their preference.

Also, I'd like to announce that the final match will be played between The Great Mighty Doom (Team 1) and Melee Mewtwo (Team 2). They were two major forces in this CtP project, and I feel they should be rewarded with the possibility of playing the final match. The match will be a best of three, and the date and time will be decided and announced soon.
 
Cyredax's Infernape

Few things;

1) The definition of a counter is a Pokemon that can switch into any of the opposing Pokemon's attacks and threaten it to a point that it is forced to switch out. Taking more than 50% from Bug Bite and being unable to OHKO full HP Scizor means that Raikou is not a counter. It is a good check but not a counter.

2) I opt for Ape over Keldeo due to the fact that the former is much harder to wear down with passive damage.

3) Cyredax, please post more I really like reading what you have to say.
 
In fact, raikou will not die to a recoil after 10 turn, it will die to hp/secret sword + bullet punch + 2 lo recoil. And I don't even consider entry hazard.
 

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