Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[LilOu]

Why is Keldeo not S-rank? He thrives in Rain and Sand and is probably the best Scarfer available at the moment. Only beaten by Scarf Latios which has a shit ton of downsides.

The requirements to be in S-Rank are:

Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support.

Keldeo can't sweep alone. He has a decent amount of counters (this pokemons usage has increased because of Keldeo): Latios, Latias, Jellicent, Toxicroak, Tentacruel, Amoongus, Celebi, etc. Just thing about it. These pokemons are hard to take down without the help of a powerful trapper and they are very bulky.

Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability.

Keldeo's main set it Choiced. He has not multiple roles that can be performed effectively. If you use Sub + CM you need to get rid of HP ice and hydro pump, so dragonite can be considered as a counter and you have a bad time playing against Lati@s.

I agree that Keldeo is awesome and is the best scarfer, but he doesn't have sufficient capability to become S-Rank.

 

[Schpoonman]

Shit, my bad. Well, best counter besides Water Absorb Jellicent. And I will admit that I should have done a bulkier Gyarados spread. But at the same time, if Keldeo gets up to +2 or +3 in the rain, even Latias is going to have a hard time. Best to leave it to Jellicent, Amoonguss, and Celebi.

To be fair, I haven't seen Celebi in a long goddamn time because her most common set is her physically defensive set and it is very obviously steam-rolled by Torn-T. So I think we'll be seeing more of it now.

 

[Takion]

I'm going to nominate Bisharp for D-Rank

This pokemon is a great counter to Latios, Celebi, Alakazam, Gengar...assuming none of these pokemon are Focus Sashed. It's ability allows it to get a boost of intimidate allowing it sucker punch a landorus-t to death.

Here are some calculations (some of these consist of swords dance)


+3 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 381-448 (119.43 - 140.43%) -- guaranteed OHKO (after intimidate)

252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 338-398 (111.92 - 131.78%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Bisharp Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 516-608 (133.67 - 157.51%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-T: 372-438 (124.41 - 146.48%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 306-360 (95.92 - 112.85%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 336-396 (101.51 - 119.63%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 291-343 (90.09 - 106.19%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 291-343 (81.28 - 95.81%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent: 522-614 (129.52 - 152.35%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 560-660 (138.61 - 163.36%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Despite all this this lil guy gets countered HARD by Breloom, Conkeldur, Keldeo, and Lucario. All of which are commonly seen in the OU.

Thoughts opinions?

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Alakazam and Gengar may carry Focus Blast, which means that Bisharp isn't exactly a counter to them... Celebi can also be seen using Earth Power or Hidden Power Fire, both of which can heavily dent, if not OHKO Bisharp.

 

[Tressed]

I'm going to nominate Bisharp for D-Rank

This pokemon is a great counter to Latios, Celebi, Alakazam, Gengar...assuming none of these pokemon are Focus Sashed. It's ability allows it to get a boost of intimidate allowing it sucker punch a landorus-t to death.

Here are some calculations (some of these consist of swords dance)


+3 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 381-448 (119.43 - 140.43%) -- guaranteed OHKO (after intimidate)

252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 338-398 (111.92 - 131.78%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Bisharp Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 516-608 (133.67 - 157.51%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-T: 372-438 (124.41 - 146.48%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 306-360 (95.92 - 112.85%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 336-396 (101.51 - 119.63%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 291-343 (90.09 - 106.19%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 291-343 (81.28 - 95.81%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent: 522-614 (129.52 - 152.35%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 560-660 (138.61 - 163.36%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Despite all this this lil guy gets countered HARD by Breloom, Conkeldur, Keldeo, and Lucario. All of which are commonly seen in the OU.

Thoughts opinions?

Used Bisharp before, it really is a decent choice. The only problem I see is how bad Sucker Punch can be, especially against defensive Pokémon, or those who can predict around it. Using it at the wrong time can leave your opponent a free opportunity to sweep you. Dragonite is another huge counter because you can't actually do anything to it unless it attacks you, so it could set up while you try to do the same/Low Kick it to death.
That being said, your calcs don't lie. Bisharp's typing has problems, but it does have strong points, and its stats certainly aren't bad either.
Also, DFA, if Alakazam and Gengar have their sashes broken, Bisharp OHKOs them with Sucker Punch due to priority. Gengar can do some Disable shenanigans, though.

 

[Takion]

Alakazam and Gengar may carry Focus Blast, which means that Bisharp isn't exactly a counter to them... Celebi can also be seen using Earth Power or Hidden Power Fire, both of which can heavily dent, if not OHKO Bisharp.

Too all of your arguments, Sucker punch is priority.

If the focus sashes are broken then Alakazam, and Gengar have no chance.

About Celebi:

Celebi would need to be fully invested in Special attack to OHKO a Bisharp.

While Bisharp:

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 367-432 (103.38 - 121.69%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Used Bisharp before, it really is a decent choice. The only problem I see is how bad Sucker Punch can be, especially against defensive Pokémon, or those who can predict around it. Using it at the wrong time can leave your opponent a free opportunity to sweep you. Dragonite is another huge counter because you can't actually do anything to it unless it attacks you, so it could set up while you try to do the same/Low Kick it to death.
That being said, your calcs don't lie. Bisharp's typing has problems, but it does have strong points, and its stats certainly aren't bad either.
Also, DFA, if Alakazam and Gengar have their sashes broken, Bisharp OHKOs them with Sucker Punch due to priority. Gengar can do some Disable shenanigans, though.

Yes, I'd also like to point out that all my calculations were without Life Orb.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I'm going to nominate Bisharp for D-Rank

This pokemon is a great counter to Latios, Celebi, Alakazam, Gengar...assuming none of these pokemon are Focus Sashed. It's ability allows it to get a boost of intimidate allowing it sucker punch a landorus-t to death.

Here are some calculations (some of these consist of swords dance)


+3 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 381-448 (119.43 - 140.43%) -- guaranteed OHKO (after intimidate)

252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 338-398 (111.92 - 131.78%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Bisharp Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 516-608 (133.67 - 157.51%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-T: 372-438 (124.41 - 146.48%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 306-360 (95.92 - 112.85%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 336-396 (101.51 - 119.63%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 291-343 (90.09 - 106.19%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 291-343 (81.28 - 95.81%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent: 522-614 (129.52 - 152.35%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 560-660 (138.61 - 163.36%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Despite all this this lil guy gets countered HARD by Breloom, Conkeldur, Keldeo, and Lucario. All of which are commonly seen in the OU.

Thoughts opinions?

Man, I was thinking about making this nomination earlier. Anyways, I agree with this proposal. Bisharp can definitely be a dangerous Pokemon, and is more than capable of sweeping teams. But of course, he has very noticeable flaws (but don't necessarily make it more trouble than it's worth), like that nasty Fighting weakness, poor Speed, reliance on an unreliable move. But yeah, Bisharp has his niche as a usable SuckerSweeper, and is one of those niche Pokemon, and definitely deserves to be in the realms of Chandelure and Kabutops.

And on the note of D-Rank, I also have two additional nominations for the D-Rank, which must be taken notice.

 

[ZandgaiaX]

Time for a twist!

I vote Porygon2 for at least C Rank, Porygon2 is one of the few behemoths left around here. Despite being very underused, OU is still P2's place to shine.

The Standard set:

Porygon2@Eviolite
Trace, Bold Nature
252 HP/ 184 Def/ 72 Sp. Def
-T-Bolt/Discharge
-Icebeam
-Toxic/T-wave
-Recover

Preferred Set:
Porygon2@Eviolite
Trace, Calm Nature
252 HP/ 6 Def/ 252 Sp. Def
-T-Bolt/Discharge
-Icebeam
-Toxic/T-wave
-Recover

The good:
-Laughs at dragons, even Hydreigon can't do much except if it has Focus Blast and even then. A Dragon Meteor + Focus Blast doesn't KO, except if it happens to have White Herb (I've seen it happen).
-Rotom-W will be left sad, only fearing Toxic, Trick and possibly WoW.
-Walls a good portion of a rain team, making a great anti-rain combo together with a fighting-resist and Kingdra: walling Politoed, Rotom-W, Thunderus (without any nasty plot's though, not to mention Focust Blast, again), Keldeo if locked into anything other than Secret Sword, Latios and Dragonite.
-Posseses the ability to permanentely cripple jellicent and make Gliscor fear for it's life.
-Walls some 'weaker' psysical attackers, like Mamoswine and Scizor: i.e. those that do not directly have a super effective move.
-Can tank Super Effective (Random) Superpowers like a pro.
-Can Recover of Drizzle-Pumps reasonably well, though luck is a bit involved
-Makes Heatran and Vaporeon cry.
-Trace, just Trace.
-Has good enough Sp. Atk to make use of the boltbeam combo, though do not expect that many 2hko's.
-Capable of beating Venusaur if it has already used sleep powder.

The Bad:
-No real supportive moves other than status.
-Needs another wall to help out, pokémon like Jellicent and Celebi come to mind: those that can nail fighting-types hard.
-Needs some help with status, as P2 fears toxic.
-Has trouble switching in, taking full SR and (Toxic) Spikes damage. Making a spinner very much a must, though this can work in your favor as well.
-Not the best counter to rain, but merely a 'check' (God do I hate this term)
-Has some staying trouble if below 50% health
-Useless against several teams, especially sand and hail.
-Lack of Leftovers really make P2 bite the bust.
-Keldeo
-Calm Mind sweepers are the bane to P2's existence, or just boosters in general.
-Most Fighting types, especially Terrakion.

Will probably post some calcs later.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

What I was saying is that Bisharp is not a counter to them because a counter is something that can switch on anything that a threat commonly uses, and Bisharp cannot switch safely on Alakazam or Gengar because they may be often seen carrying Focus Blast.

 

[Takion]

Ah okay, when I said counter I just meant generally, not smogon terminology. In that case, he's a check. My apologies.

 

[Frog]

Lol landorus in S it is powerful but has so many checks (although only gyara is counter. Celebi, latio@s, hippowdon, politoed, rotom-w, mamoswine, even fucking donphan beats it.

 

[typon77]

Lol landorus in S it is powerful but has so many checks (although only gyara is counter. Celebi, latio@s, hippowdon, politoed, rotom-w, mamoswine, even fucking donphan beats it.

Sorry for being blunt, but this post is just downright incorrect. You just listed the few counters and checks there are to a single Landorus set, and not all of those are even correct. Donphan gets OHKO'd by Earth Power with any hazards to break Sturdy while Ice Shard from Donphan cannot OHKO even with SR. Hippowdon also takes upwards of 70% from Earth Power, so if its taken any prior damage along with some hazards (Hippo finds itself at not quite full health quite often), its easily broken through. Lastly, Celebi is also considered a counter unless Landorus runs Sludge Wave (its actually kinda cool, try it), in which case Celebi isn't even a check.

However, the biggest flaw in your argument is the fact that did not take into account the HUGE number of other sets Landorus can run. Special Attacker might be Landorus's best set in the current metagame, but its sheer versatility is a main draw to it being S-Tier. And its Physical Attacking / E-Belt sets let it stay solid OU before Sheer Force even existed, so dont try to set its other sets arent good. Landorus can get around all of its counters by simply using U-turn (even on the Special set). A majority of the mons that you listed cant comfortably take a Scarf Max Attack U-turn, and those that do take it will just have a pokemon that can beat them switched in on them. Landorus will almost never find itself useless in a match, and it deserves S-tier for being an offensive powerhouse just as much as Terrakion does.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

In fact, I believe this topic has only been detrimental for the metagame since its conception.

I think these threads have been good in the sense that I found myself getting completely fed up of the constant whining about certain Pokemon having more/less usage than people think they deserve. But I think the viability ranking threads have decreased the whining a bit, I don't know why, maybe because it satisfies people more that they can at least put the Pokemon they think get used too much in the bottom tiers here, giving less need for them to constantly complain in other threads.

On the negative side though, a lot of inexperienced players clearly just come to these threads and build teams solely of S and A tier Pokemon.

 

[Tressed]

I think these threads have been good in the sense that I found myself getting completely fed up of the constant whining about certain Pokemon having more/less usage than people think they deserve. But I think the viability ranking threads have decreased the whining a bit, I don't know why, maybe because it satisfies people more that they can at least put the Pokemon they think get used too much in the bottom tiers here, giving less need for them to constantly complain in other threads.

On the negative side though, a lot of inexperienced players clearly just come to these threads and build teams solely of S and A tier Pokemon.

Well, at least those inexperienced players have stopped using Charizard XD.
On the plus side, by reading through this thread they can see as to why things are good or not. I used to have problems understanding why things were less viable than other stuff, and I learned from experience. However, a new player can come here and see Pokémon from the eyes of older players, and they can read about WHY something is good, rather than if it is. I personally love this thread.

 

[yoshinator879]

Maybe it would be a lot of work, but on the front page (the post with the tiers), could we put a link to a post explaining why it's in the tier that it is, or just a spoiler box explaining it? I think it would be a lot more helpful then just saying which Pokemon is in which tier, because trying to read through a 35 page threat is kind of crazy.

Thanks!

Edit: lol I meant 55

 

[BluhBluh]

Let's not start this again.
The unecessary hype generated by this topic is the reason Tornadus-T was banned.
And now you want to do the exact same thing with Landorus? No, it's not S rank marerial.

In fact, I believe this topic has only been detrimental for the metagame since its conception.

Since when did we say we want to ban Landorus?

 

[Bent1ey]

Let's not start this again.
The unecessary hype generated by this topic is the reason Tornadus-T was banned.
And now you want to do the exact same thing with Landorus? No, it's not S rank marerial.

In fact, I believe this topic has only been detrimental for the metagame since its conception.

If I read this correctly banning Genesect and Tornadus-T is detrimental? Not accordly to those who played the ladder and voted, it isn't as if the ladder was held hostage by this topic or anything like that. I don't always agree with the ladder votes but I trust their judgement, to think they would be affected by this topic in such a drastic way it's fantasy if you ask me.

 

[typon77]

Let's not start this again.
The unecessary hype generated by this topic is the reason Tornadus-T was banned.
And now you want to do the exact same thing with Landorus? No, it's not S rank marerial.

In fact, I believe this topic has only been detrimental for the metagame since its conception.

I shouldn't even respond to this, but I'm going to anyways. Tornadus-T was banned for many reasons, not just hype from a viability thread. However, that's a decision of the past, so you have no reason to bring it up.

Secondly, provide actual reasoning as to why you don't think Landorus is S-tier material. And dont just say "It has at least 2 hard counters and a decent number of checks", because everything that doesn't check it gets absolutely decimated, and once it has a Rock Polish up, Mamoswine and Weavile are the only things that can actually check it. And I can't emphasize this enough, Sheer Force is only one of Landorus's MANY VIABLE SETS! Besides, nobody said Landorus was broken or bannable, just an absolutely top tier threat in the metagame. If you aren't prepared for Landorus, it will rip you to shreds. Also, in the future, don't speak with such a condescending and superior tone; your opinion is not the only one that exists.

Sorry if this post is a little angry sounding. I still firmly believe that Landorus is definitely S-tier, and someone will have to provide a lot of evidence and data to prove to me that it isn't. The fact that PK Gaming moved Landorus to S-tier with absolutely no resistance should show that its of the general consensus that Landorus belongs there.

 

[Vemane]

I've found after using (or attempting to use) landorus for a bit recently that it simply isn't as suited in this current meta as it was previously. Can it sweep? Of course, it's very potent. However, the potential is extremely limited atm, due to a) the relatively bulky meta atm and b)the amount of priority atm.

Every time i would start a battle I'd look at team preview and think, "okay, I need to get rid of rotom, weaken toad, weaken ferro, really weaken the latis, get rid of scrizor and mamo and maybe loom, really weaken celebi, really weaken jellicent, get rid of gengar, etc.

Now with proper hazard and team support (which is essential for rp lando)d, many of these threats can be easily nuetralized by late game, but by that point, I was either in a position to win easily anyways, lando really didn't have much setup opprotunity, another pokemon could clean up better on my team, or focus blast misses. Lando is certainly a very large threat, but oftentimes he simply is not needed (keep in mind that this team was built around the genie), simply because the opposing team is already sufficiently weak by the time lando's checks and counters are gone.

Specs lando began to intrigue me though somewhat (as well as band sand force lando) for the huge, unexpected immediate power and good speed

 

[Lavos]

petitioning to drop landorus to a rank

sure, rp lando, the reason this thing is s rank in the first place, is a huge threat. it's a boosting special attacker with great coverage, two free life orbs, and excellent typing. however, it's hardly what it used to be when the set originally gained its popularity. frankly, landorus hardly ever pulls off any sweeps nowadays, because every single decent team prepares for it by bringing at least two checks. common examples are sand bringing latias + rotom-w, rain bringing bulky toed + lati@s / rotom-w, and sun bringing bulky volcarona + air balloon heatran (okay, that one's a stretch, but venusaur lives modest earth power and ohkos with hp ice, so there's that). anyways, point being, lando doesn't do much anyone. it's still as strong as ever, it hasn't been nerfed or anything, but it's now recognized as such a huge threat that teambuilders prep for it too much and prevent it from doing anything without removing or severely weakening its standard two checks on any given team. terrakion is s rank because even when you overprepare for it, it still has the potential to do huge damage with one of its many different sets. landorus, on the other hand, is a one-trick pony, and people have figured out how to stop it now.

oh and if anyone wants to chat about alternate landorus sets i think we can all agree that scarf, ebelt, and physical rp are all a rank at best

 

[TUO]

Ah okay, when I said counter I just meant generally, not smogon terminology. In that case, he's a check. My apologies.

As much as I love the red ranger, i need to understand why you should use this over SD Scizor. SD scizor has more bulk, neutrality to fighting, and a more reliable priority move.

 

[Tressed]

As much as I love the red ranger, i need to understand why you should use this over SD Scizor. SD scizor has more bulk, neutrality to fighting, and a more reliable priority move.

Resistance to SR, different typed priority, near perfect coverage with two moves, which leaves moveslots open. He's doesn't have a quad fire weakness, either, which can be nice. He also puts immediate pressure on Psychics that can KO him, unlike Scizor. The number of times I've OHKO'd Scizors who think they can counter Latias or Celebi is unreal. Bisharp doesn't have that problem.
Just little stuff, mostly. Scizor's access to U-turn makes it a lot more effective in general, but Bisharp still has its uses.

 

[Aerophoenix]

As much as I love the red ranger, i need to understand why you should use this over SD Scizor. SD scizor has more bulk, neutrality to fighting, and a more reliable priority move.

But he's not saying that Bisharp deserves as high of a rank as Scizor, simply that it has a decent, if small and outclassed, niche that usually indicates D rank.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

As much as I love the red ranger, i need to understand why you should use this over SD Scizor. SD scizor has more bulk, neutrality to fighting, and a more reliable priority move.

I've actually been using Bisharp quite a bit in OU to some success lately. It has a SR resistance, unlike Scizor, and its priority move has generally better coverage so it doesn't hate Fire-types as much as his Bug-type cousin does. It also has stronger priority. This also allows it to take on the Latis better, and more. Also, a Psychic immunity is neat in facing Espeon better. Not saying it's better than Scizor, but it has enough in its arsenal to let it stand out. Pretty small niche tbh, but I've been enjoying Bisharp.

With a small niche to boot, I think Bisharp is definitely worthy of a D-Rank placement, along with some other niche Pokemon.

 

[Meru]

Is Jirachi for S-rank too much of a stretch? Sweeper potential in SubCM, walling with SpDef, team support with SR/Wish/Paralysis/U-turn, and a Scarf set that can Trick. All while being resistant to SR and common priority. Many sets, all effective, is this not the basis of S-rank?