np: NU Stage 8 - Who Let the Dogs Out

[ebeast]

So this new metagame has been around for about 15 days so far. Now that people have had enough time testing Roselia out, who do you think is the more consistent user of Spikes in NU between Roselia and Garbodor? Notice I said consistent over best due to the fact that they check different things all together and Roselia has the option at being a more offensive Spiker. If you ask me I would still say that Garbodor is the most consistent due to its better physical bulk and more reliability against what it needs to check. Roselia's bulk is just kind of subpar for the role of a Spiker as it doesn't take physical hits well at all and even some special hits can leave a mark on it. Roselia is supposed to be a good check to Samurott and Ludicolo, but in most occasions fails at this due to Ludicolo and Samurott's Ice Beam 2HKOing SpD Roselia after Stealth Rock and Samu's Swords Dance set tearing Roselia apart. Offensive Roselia plain and simple gets destroyed by Ice Beams and Megahorns and physical attacks in general. Garbodor's better bulk and mono Poison-typing allow it to check Sawk and Gurdurr very nicely as well as pair up better with more offensive Pokemon such as Sawsbuck, Drifblim, and Fraxure.

 

[DTC]

That is a great question EBeast. I think offensive Roselia is a better overall Pokemon than Garbodor. Roselia can actually do quite a bit of damage to the opposing team with its modestly high Special Attack, while Garbodor does not cause much damage besides from Rocky Helmet recoil. However, as for more consistent Spiker, Garbodor definitely takes the cake. Garbodor has an easy time Spiking against pretty much everything because it is pretty fast and fairly challenging to OHKO. Roselia, however, is much slower, and easier to OHKO thanks to its numerous weaknesses. From my experiences, Roselia typically gets 2-3 layers of Spikes on Pokemon it is good against and only 1 layer against Pokemon it struggles against while Garbodor typically sets up 2 layers of Spikes in any given match.

 

[cb aaron judge]

i think roselia is a better mon due to it being a much better presence offensively, having 2 reliable stab moves (as opposed to garbodor's unreliable 1). it also has more special defense, and a nice water resistance, enabling it to check threats such as samurott and ludicolo. garbodor does have less weaknesses (no fire, flying, ice weakness, unlike roselia) and has superior physical defense. roselia also is slower, which means it won't set up as many spikelayers as garbodor.

 

[ium]

although roselia isn't quite as fast as garbodor, it still has acceptable speed which lets it set up on basically most of the slower pokemon that garbodor would be taking advantage of too. coupled with recovery options in giga drain, synthesis, and leech seed, roselia can really hold its own throughout a match to ensure several layers of spikes.

however, both roselia and garbodor are a bit shaky at what they're meant to check anyway. garbodor is great at switching into fighting-type attacks, but what if it ends up switching into earthquake instead? likewise, roselia doesn't mind taking a hydro pump at all, but it risks getting 2HKO'd by ice beam after stealth rock and will not be able to take on physical water-types. the difference here is that garbodor is easier to pair with offensive pokemon that can take advantage of a choice-locked sawk, for example.

 

[Darkblitz720]

can some of you guys tell me some examples of NU defensive and offensive cores . thanks :D

 

[Ewil]

DarkBlitz, here's a link of some example of good offensive and defensive core.
It's a bit old and contain some pokemon that gone to RU, so watch the NU list for knowing who gets the boot ;P

NU cores Thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3471164

 

[ium]

can some of you guys tell me some examples of NU defensive and offensive cores . thanks :D

this is a question that would be more suitable to ask here as that serves as NU's simple questions, simple answers thread. np threads are for discussions, while the one i provided is just for stuff that can be answered in a simple post or two.

the NU combinations thread posted above is a good start, but yeah, it's fairly outdated. while there are good combinations in that thread that are still relevant, there are many other options you can explore too.

one of the simple, cookie-cutter cores is gurdurr / skuntank / musharna, because they all have excellent synergy and can collectively threaten anything that may impede musharna or gurdurr from setting up to sweep. musharna takes fighting-type attacks aimed at skuntank, skuntank can trap some psychic- and ghost-types keeping gurdurr from setting up, and gurdurr can threaten dark-types that can threaten musharna.

 

[viol and bass]

I just had a match in which my opponent and I both used Musharna (I had the Calm Mind/Heal Bell variety and he had CM/Signal Beam). He switched a Gurdurr into my Kangaskhan, and I switched in Musharna. Used CM. He switched in his Musharna. I went on a mini-rant about how I hate Musharna-Musharna CM wars because they simply become a question of who crits first. We both set up, I crit first. I take out a few more of his Pokémon, he says "Fuck my life" and quits.

I dread seeing a Musharna on the opponent's team, because I don't carry a Skuntank (and there've been some HP Ground Musharna running around lately anyway, right?). And Musharna alone invalidates almost my entire team.

So I have a question: How the hell do you guys deal with Musharna?

Edit: The same situation, against the same person, just happened again. Again, my Musharna beat his with a crit. My problem with Musharna is that I feel like it's much harder to build a functioning team without it. It's hard to cover as many threats. But carrying it leads to situations like this.

 

[Aasgier]

Musharna isn't that troublesome. It's slow as ill snails after you put salt on them, so Misdreavus or any other Pokémon with Taunt can usually deal with it unless it is significantly weakened to the point Musharna can KO with Psychic or a coverage move. After the Taunt, hammer it with SE moves.

If you can't Taunt it, the same applies. Hit it hard enough to 2HKO it even with Leftovers factored in. Pinsir works best and deals a crapload of damage with Megahorn, OHKO'ing all but the physically bulkiest Musharna, but Leavanny, Golurk, Samurott, Kingler, and a whole host of other Pokémon all are capable of carrying moves which 2HKO Musharna.

Skuntank isn't a good idea against Musharna actually, as it does not have enough offence to actually 2HKO physically defensive Musharna with Crunch and Musharna does actually 2HKO with Hidden Power [Ground] after a CM boost, which means it always wins head-to-head.

 

[WhiteDMist]

Musharna isn't that troublesome. It's slow as ill snails after you put salt on them, so Misdreavus or any other Pokémon with Taunt can usually deal with it unless it is significantly weakened to the point Musharna can KO with Psychic or a coverage move. After the Taunt, hammer it with SE moves.

If you can't Taunt it, the same applies. Hit it hard enough to 2HKO it even with Leftovers factored in. Pinsir works best and deals a crapload of damage with Megahorn, OHKO'ing all but the physically bulkiest Musharna, but Leavanny, Golurk, Samurott, Kingler, and a whole host of other Pokémon all are capable of carrying moves which 2HKO Musharna.

Skuntank isn't a good idea against Musharna actually, as it does not have enough offence to actually 2HKO physically defensive Musharna with Crunch and Musharna does actually 2HKO with Hidden Power [Ground] after a CM boost, which means it always wins head-to-head.

Pinsir doesn't learn Megahorn. X-Scissor does 2HKO though. As for other ways to handle Musharna besides relying on 2HKOing it (not an easy thing to do), it depends on what move it has in its last slot. With Heal Bell, Skuntank actually works as an amazing counter to it (as do other Dark-types like SD Cacturne). With Signal Beam/HP Ground, anything with Toxic can slowly wittle it down. For more offensive teams, Trick helps to limit what Musharna can do.

 

[ium]

hp ground is quite rare on musharna anyway, because having no signal beam makes it harder for musharna to come out on top if it faces another calm mind psychic-type. skuntank is still a good way to keep musharna from muscling its way through teams, but a well-built team will have many ways to dispose of skuntank, like piloswine or sawsbuck.

offensive teams have plenty of other methods to keep musharna from getting away with a sweep; the key here is to carry several ways to check it. some stuff i've been using are rotom-a for trick, and metang, which has a 4x resistance to psychic-type attacks and can toxic in return without fear of synchronize. i've also been messing around with a combination of psychic- and/or ghost-types that people have mentioned in this thread earlier. destiny bond haunter and gardevoir are neat because they can lure musharna or dark-types and get rid of them to free the way for another psychic-type to set up. aside from using toxic for non-heal bell variants of musharna, taunt is also a very interesting option, but it's really hard to fit on many pokemon. misdreavus can use taunt, but that means it can't really switch in to something like alomomola without risking a toxic. samurott is actually one of the best options for a taunt user, having excellent coverage and power in just three attacks to make it a potent wallbreaker. between those support options, as well as having hard-hitting pokemon, most teams usually have few problems with musharna if played well.

if you're using a bulkier team, there's still stuff like bastiodon to take attacks and use roar on any musharna trying to set up. stall teams will usually also have toxic spikes or toxic users that can wear down musharna over the course of the match, even if it has access to heal bell.

 

[wiitle]

So far it's been established that psychics are a huge threat in this meta since Absol left. The problem is finding something that can take them on even with their coverage moves. Scraggy is a fantastic mon that can not only take neutral damage from all of their coverage moves but also frequently set up on the wide variety of psychic types in the tier. It is immune to psychic and takes neutral damage from both HP ground and Signal Beam, has 2 fantastic set up moves in bulk up and dragon dance, and a useful ability in shed skin. Scraggy can pretty easily switch into Musharna and begin setting up. The set I've been testing out lately is an offensive ddance set recommended to me by Molk.

@ Eviolite
Trait: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Drain Punch
- Hi Jump Kick
- Crunch

This set can patch up any weaknesses to psychic types and can sweep pretty easily given the right set up. I've been using this set with a Custap Golem lead to give Scraggy a free switch in. It also pairs well with bulky physical mons that can take powerful fighting and flying type moves. I'd highly encourage you all to try this set.

 

[Constantinipple]

Alright so is Hail banned or not o.o

 

[DTC]

Alright so is Hail banned or not o.o

Hail was never banned by the council, but Snover moved up to RU in the recent tier shifts. BTW, please ask these kind of questions herehttp://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3472094

 

[kniteowl]

I just had a match in which my opponent and I both used Musharna (I had the Calm Mind/Heal Bell variety and he had CM/Signal Beam). He switched a Gurdurr into my Kangaskhan, and I switched in Musharna. Used CM. He switched in his Musharna. I went on a mini-rant about how I hate Musharna-Musharna CM wars because they simply become a question of who crits first. We both set up, I crit first. I take out a few more of his Pokémon, he says "Fuck my life" and quits.

I dread seeing a Musharna on the opponent's team, because I don't carry a Skuntank (and there've been some HP Ground Musharna running around lately anyway, right?). And Musharna alone invalidates almost my entire team.

So I have a question: How the hell do you guys deal with Musharna?

Edit: The same situation, against the same person, just happened again. Again, my Musharna beat his with a crit. My problem with Musharna is that I feel like it's much harder to build a functioning team without it. It's hard to cover as many threats. But carrying it leads to situations like this.

Like what WhiteDMist says, it depends what Musharna move set you're facing.

Non - heal bell sets are easily dealt with by toxic.

Heal bell sets either require you to carry a dark type or a strong physical attacker with a super effective move, preferably stab but not always.

I'm currently using a team of Rapidash, Samurott and Sawbucks (offensive water fire grass core yay :P) (no bug or dark types on my team either), all capable of using Megahorn. I dunno what the damage output is on Musharna when I use megahorn on any of them but they still do a number on Musharna. At the very least Musharna is force to attack while I lower it's HP to OHKO range by another team member. Preferably one with a strong physical Stab.

 

[Ryanor]

What do you think about this set?

Fraxure @ Eviolite
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Taunt
- Outrage / Dragon Claw
- Superpower / Low Kick

Fraxure isn't updated on Smogon and he has access to Superpower and Low Kick (also Aqua Tail, but I think that it's a inferior option). Since BW2 was released, Fraxure can destroy the most common steels in the tier such as Bastiodon, Probopass and Lairon.

 

[citro]

Yeah, Musharna is really tricky to deal with. If you're not going to carry a Skuntank, there are a few things to try. I've found Substitute + Calm Mind Gardevoir is a good answer to it because its high Special Defense means it can boost up alongside it. It basically always wins against the mono-attacking variants and can beat Signal Beam sets too.

This is a little gimmicky so I haven't tried it out, but Psych Up and Frost Breath Regice will take it on barring Psyshock. CB Golurk can come into Musharna and 2HKO it, and he has tye bulk to take a couple of Psychics. Even Stealth Rock Golurk are able to 2HKO it with Shadow Punch if you carry an Expert Belt, but you gave to forgo Leftovers so it's not uncommon for Musharna to outlast you.

Bulky setup sweepers that can take a few hits are able to come into it most of the time; Eviolite Fraxure takes two Psychics and can dent it enough that you can finish it off with something else. SD Samurott can switch in and hit Musharna with a +2 Megahorn. I haven't tried stuff like SD Lickilicky but I imagine it boosts up faster and can beat it.

I mean even so, Musharna is really hard to beat :( but hey once you do, you've killed a Musharna so it's only downhill from there!

p.s. shedinja

 

[watashi]

What do you think about this set?

Fraxure @ Eviolite
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Taunt
- Outrage / Dragon Claw
- Superpower / Low Kick

Fraxure isn't updated on Smogon and he has access to Superpower and Low Kick (also Aqua Tail, but I think that it's a inferior option). Since BW2 was released, Fraxure can destroy the most common steels in the tier such as Bastiodon, Probopass and Lairon.

theres really no reason to use superpower over low kick except for mawile, which is extremely uncommon. most steel-types take enough damage since they're heavy. another option over taunt is substitute, although you'll get worn down pretty quickly due to lack of leftovers. it's useful for setting up on water-types that commonly run scald, such as wartortle.

 

[Cheapoman]

I've found dealing with musharna is manageable if its the CM variant. I run a Cleric one and its been good to me so far.

Garbodor is quite nice when putting up spikes/T-spikes. Though I am gonna try roselia eventually. It might have its own quirks to be viable with.

 

[sickweare]

Musharna is definitely becoming a Pokemon that I can slap on to my teams and automatically see improvements. She is just so good in this meta now. That doesn't mean she's unstoppable, but she is capable of doing a lot right now. I really like Mushy too so the departure of Absol is kind of bittersweet.

Also, to contribute to the Rose vs Garb, I think Garb is of more use because he laughs at most physical atttacks not named Earthquake and can set up some spikes quite reliably and then he gets out of there. Rosie is good but often she becomes a liability when the opponent uses Armaldo. The good thing about her is that she can take on Wartortle 1 v 1 witout being too annoyed by eviolite.

 

[ebeast]

Speaking of Musharna, Annoyer has gotten me to start using the Pivot set more and quite frankly it's really good. While Mushy loses her ability to set up on a multitude of things with Calm Mind, its awesome bulk allows it to easily tank hits and Thunder Wave threats. The ability to slow Pokemon down is great on more offensive teams and the bulk Musharna provides also it an emergency switch into a myriad of threats. Another cool thing about Pivot Musharna is that she can TWave Skuntank switches and Baton Pass herself out of there to prevent Pursuit from going through. This means people relying on Sawk + Skuntank cores will have a much harder time trying to pull it off as Musharna still beats Sawk to a pulp and can easily escape Skuntank.

Musharna (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Thunder Wave
- Moonlight
- Psychic
- Baton Pass

I moved the standard 16 Spe EVs over to SpD so that Musharna can underspeed everything. A slow Baton Pass will get out a Pokemon for free if you need it.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Just saying that this set Ebeast posted is pretty good and that I've also tried out a specialy defensive variant. Musharna is always seen as a physical wall because it walls the very dangerous sawk and fears pursuit, but musharna actualy has a better special defence than defence and since you can escape pursuit safely, psychic becomes a very solid specialy defensive type too. It's resistances are not too useful, but mushy is so bulky it will usualy take nearly any specs hit or hydro pump under rain and reply with a thunder wave. Viable special bug types in NU can pretty much be resumed to masquerain and buterfree which are both pretty uncommon and pretty easy to counter. haunter and special driflbim are the only other pokes that hit muhy hard enough on the special side without setting up. You should still watch out for seismitoad since rain nerfs moonlight and he is immune to thunder wave. Apart from that, you have a near flawless special wall that can also help against gurdurr (alomomola makes a good partner since gurdurr is one of the only things it struggles with and sawsbuck, leafeon and haunter all have the same speed which makes them easy to check with only one poke (sap sipper offensive miltank with punishment does great and can even absorb sleep powder for a more solid core)).

 

[DragonBorn]

with the rise of Musharna Banette may start to rise. Banette makes a good counter to Musharna because it can 2hko every Musharna set with Adamant nature, 252 atk evs, 252 hp evs, and Life Orb Shadow Claw here are the calculations for it.

http://www.google.com/imgres? q=ban...bnh=178&tbnw=190&start=0&ndsp=19&tx=168&ty=59 ( Picture of Banette)
252+ Atk Life Orb Banette Shadow Claw vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 242-283 (55.88 - 65.35%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(Calm Mind set)
252+ Atk Life Orb Banette Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Musharna: 346-408 (79.35 - 93.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(Nu Offensive set)
252+ Atk Life Orb Banette Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Musharna: 346-408 (79.35 - 93.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(choice specs)
252+ Atk Life Orb Banette Shadow Claw vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 242-283 (55.88 - 65.35%) -- guaranteed 2HKO( Nu pivot)

even with no speed investment he out speeds all musharnas except 252 speed evs with timid nature.

And Musharna doesn't even have a 100% chance to OHKO back with a Choice Specs set Physcic take a look
252+ SpA Choice Specs Musharna Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Banette: 307-363 (92.46 - 109.33%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO

And calm mind sets Barley gets the chance of a 2HKO
0 SpA Musharna Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Banette: 150-177 (45.18 - 53.31%) -- 30.47% chance to 2HKO

SO again Banette may get a chance to rise as a Musharna counter

 

[skylight]

with the rise of Musharna Banette may start to rise. Banette makes a good counter to Musharna because it can 2hko every Musharna set with Adamant nature, 252 atk evs, 252 hp evs, and Life Orb Shadow Claw here are the calculations for it.

http://www.google.com/imgres? q=ban...bnh=178&tbnw=190&start=0&ndsp=19&tx=168&ty=59 ( Picture of Banette)
252+ Atk Life Orb Banette Shadow Claw vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 242-283 (55.88 - 65.35%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(Calm Mind set)
252+ Atk Life Orb Banette Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Musharna: 346-408 (79.35 - 93.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(Nu Offensive set)
252+ Atk Life Orb Banette Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Musharna: 346-408 (79.35 - 93.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(choice specs)
252+ Atk Life Orb Banette Shadow Claw vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 242-283 (55.88 - 65.35%) -- guaranteed 2HKO( Nu pivot)

even with no speed investment he out speeds all musharnas except 252 speed evs with timid nature.

And Musharna doesn't even have a 100% chance to OHKO back with a Choice Specs set Physcic take a look
252+ SpA Choice Specs Musharna Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Banette: 307-363 (92.46 - 109.33%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO

And calm mind sets Barley gets the chance of a 2HKO
0 SpA Musharna Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Banette: 150-177 (45.18 - 53.31%) -- 30.47% chance to 2HKO

SO again Banette may get a chance to rise as a Musharna counter

Not sure what calc you're using but on Showdown's calc it's...

0 SpA Musharna Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Banette: 186-219 (61.79 - 72.75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Which means Banette can't safely switch in without dying by the second hit (and if it's that risky even on your calc Banette cannot safely switch in and kill without a chance of it dying on the second turn, which isn't really the point of a counter), thus is just a check and not a counter to Mushy.

 

[ium]

Not sure what calc you're using but on Showdown's calc it's...

0 SpA Musharna Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Banette: 186-219 (61.79 - 72.75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

no, i can confirm that his calculation is right.

0SpAtk Musharna (Neutral) Psychic vs 252HP/0SpDef Banette (Neutral): 45% - 53% (150 - 177 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 10% chance to 2HKO.

regardless, i will agree that banette is still a check at best; it still takes significant damage from musharna when switching in, and with that life orb recoil, it's a clean 2HKO.

honestly though, banette doesn't provide anything too different from other ghost-types aside from sucker punch and probably a few other niche options. i would rather much be more comfortable using golurk or something. without a boosting item, golurk does pretty much the same damage as life orb banette and it even takes less damage from psychic.