np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 10 - Hazard

[BKC]

uh venusaur isn't running through the dragonite you'll find on a lot of dxd teams anytime soon...plus the sheer momentum dxd's team puts on the opponent means that not only will venusaur have an incredibly tough time setting up, the multiple hazards it'll have to switch into, provided easily by yours truly, in conjunction with hits from LO wear it down to the point where priority (dnite, lucario, scizor) won't have any trouble picking it off. also rd kingdra isn't "too much support" considering it's a dangerous sweeper (which dxd teams stock up on) that also completely shits on rain offense and can change the weather against sun; one of the most popular dxd teams in bw1 (i think it was giga punch's?) used it.

of course dxd's rampant hazard laying can be slowed down by spinners, but not only can dxd('s teammates) kill/take advantage of them, not every team has room to run a spinner just in case their opponent happens to bring dxd offense...

dxd may not be "broken" but it is most definitely unhealthy for the metagame & should be banned.

 

[Soul Fly]

No not true. (@before Articblast)

DeoD teams can't prepare for a Growth Sweep (without over preparing, which proves my too-much-support argument). Also, getting hazards won't cripple Sun teams because the only fire type is usually Ninetales, and possibly Tran / Victini.

Band Darmanitan? Volcarona? Infernape? and Sun DNite (who literally depends on Multiscale to survive OU) and Salamence?
It isn't really that Simple.

They won't mind so much BECAUSE Venusaur doesn't care, and Ninetales isn't competing to win the weather war. Sure, it did its job. ITS JOB IS NOT HELPING VS. SUN. Also, Tales did its job by simply setting up the win condition: sun. How else can I express that? 1 Spike + SR is not beating sun since sun will set up Growth on Venu and the DeoD team is now raped. Unless you, off, as I said, go out of your way like running RD to counter it, which is way too much support. You make it seem like SR + Spikes will be enough to beat sun. Its not. Its really hard to beat Venu and THAT WAS MY POINT. *sigh*

Yes Tales did it job. That's why People just let Tales die in a kamakaze style against weatherless, because after drought, it's just a shitty pokemon. My starmie secretly packs hail to fuck over such teams. but that doesn't mean Tales was responsible for it.

And well There are plenty of ways to kill Venusaur even after growth and it doesn't always have to be a dedicated support to Deo-D. Reiterating to my previous Example, my Volcarona has a focus Sash, and Can easily OHKO Venusaur under the Sun in a multitude of ways.
AND AND Venusaur is really fucked over by STAB Psycho Boost which seems to become more and more common as used as Deo-D users are coming out of their closets.
and these are just two.


As I said. I don't get it. It's a standalone issue. I don't see how packing Deo-D in a standard weatherless teams somehow dramatically worsens your teams odds of facing a SunSaur than it already is.

Standard Magic Guard Kazam, Ice Shard Mamo and tons of other thing can wear it down. and the Deo-D user will not mind exactly because HO teams are designed like that. A single pokemon can quite easily sweep.. so sacrificing 2 mons to take out a troublesome threat is a common thing.

Plus. I'd like to make it Very clear.

Deo-D =/= Exclusive HO lead.

It can used in absolutely any sort of team looking for a spiker.

 

[Shurtugal]

It's not broken, so I don't see any other reason why we should ban it. Something being unhealthy to the metagame is very subject to opinion on what a healthy metagame is, which is why I don't like using that as a legitimate reason :x

Using +0 Venu vs. DeoD is stupid since DeoD has TWave. No good player would send it on vs. DeoD unless it was in KO range. You're over preparing with SashRona and Hail Starmie, which are my points exactly. How can something be broken when you're over-preparing for simple things like Venusaur? It's not like because you have DeoD that all of a sudden Sun can't set up their own rocks, which fucks over DNite as week as SashRona.

Also, the only way DeoD can get past sun is by running a priority core (see Dnite is not good enough standalone, usually Luke / DNite / Scizor). At this point, you're asking for WAY too much support. However, I admit that a priority core played correct can get past Venu (not before losing 2 of your priority users imo). Chloro spam wins though (Sawsbuck + Venusaur core ftw). While thats not often used, and very specific, so is that priority core I mentioned...

 

[BKC]

doug's characteristics of a desirable metagame state (something along the lines of, idk exactly and i can't check atm) that our ideal metagame, which we're trying to get as close to as possible, is one where the player who plays better should win the game without fearing any strategies that circumvent skill and would therefore throw all his efforts out the window. dxd teams require very little skill, and they are extremely auto-pilot, meaning that they don't care how well the other dude plays, they have a ridiculous advantage on their side so they still win.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

There are dozens arguments here. The most common one is ''it always setup rocks''. This is not just false (hi cbtar, espeon), it also means we could as well ban all sturdy users since they do that too. Also i have been using deoxys-d extensively and i can guarantee that its NOT easy to setup rocks AND spikes. You might get that layer of rocks up but youll die after that or be shutdown most of the time or your gengar will be knocked out and your rocks will be spinned. Also there are certain teams that dont really care about rocks anyway. This is no Deoxys-S, it doesnt have the speed to guarantee hazards like S could. Its just a good pokemon that is good at what it does.

 

[Soul Fly]

It's not broken, so I don't see any other reason why we should ban it. Something being unhealthy to the metagame is very subject to opinion on what a healthy metagame is, which is why I don't like using that as a legitimate reason :x

Well then that's your personal opinion.

Some people still ardently believe that Genesect was perfectly fine in OU because all it's sets could be countered by one pokemon or the other. But it was banned because of it's sheer unpredictability.
I'm just saying that if precedent is anything to go by then Deo-D should also get the boot.

There are dozens arguments here. The most common one is ''it always setup rocks''. This is not just false (hi cbtar, espeon), it also means we could as well ban all sturdy users since they do that too.

CB-Tar is slower. -.- So it WILL get out rocks
And Espeon has already been dealt with. Skill Swap. Again, another unpredictable move it can pull giving it a permanent magic coat.

 

[Shurtugal]

@BKC:
So is rain and sun. Shouldn't they be the suspects by that logic?

EDIT: Genesect was banned broken so treat it as such. I stated that a healthy metagame is subject to opinion, which even BKC's point is based of the founders opinion, so my point stands true. I said I don't like using that reason BECAUSE its opinionated. I don't see how thats an opinion, simply a fact. An opinionated reason to ban something is very biased.

(I keep getting ninja'd everytime I post -.-)

 

[BKC]

yes, i believe they should; i know several other people who feel that way as well, but ultimately the council decides what gets suspected & right now it's deo-d.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Well then that's your personal opinion.

Some people still ardently believe that Genesect was perfectly fine in OU because all it's sets could be countered by one pokemon or the other. But it was banned because of it's sheer unpredictability.
I'm just saying that if precedent is anything to go by then Deo-D should also get the boot.



CB-Tar is slower. -.- So it WILL get out rocks
And Espeon has already been dealt with. Skill Swap. Again, another unpredictable move it can pull giving it a permanent magic coat.

Holy Crap i have rocks on my side! I cant win the battle anymore because my team is composed of a bunch of 4x rock pokes! Come on man like i said this is a weak argument, if your team is that weak to rocks you should either have a spinner/magic bouncer or youre doing it wrong.

 

[Shurtugal]

My point is that if rain and sun follow under these same principles, banning DeoD is only going to spam Sun and Rain.

DeoD has the advantage vs. weatherless no DeoD, just like weather does vs. non-weatherless. Deo-D's ability to set up hazards for an advantage is equivalent to Politoed and Ninetales' ability to set up sun and rain. My point is for those of us who believe sun and rain to be fine in the metagame really have no argument for DeoD since its the same principles. It's stupid because most of the "keep weather" people are supporting DeoD's ban, which is not helping their case -.-

 

[Soul Fly]

Holy Crap i have rocks on my side! I cant win the battle anymore because my team is composed of a bunch of 4x rock pokes! Come on man like i said this is a weak argument, if your team is that weak to rocks you should either have a spinner/magic bouncer or youre doing it wrong.

It's not a question of how Rocks weak your team is. I think we've already dealt with that.
Guaranteed rocks ruin many viable strategies, which gives your Opponent a definite 100% advantage in all his matches.

My point is that if rain and sun follow under these same principles, banning DeoD is only going to spam Sun and Rain.

DeoD has the advantage vs. weatherless no DeoD, just like weather does vs. non-weatherless. Deo-D's ability to set up hazards for an advantage is equivalent to Politoed and Ninetales' ability to set up sun and rain. My point is for those of us who believe sun and rain to be fine in the metagame really have no argument for DeoD since its the same principles. It's stupid because most of the "keep weather" people are supporting DeoD's ban, which is not helping their case -.-

Well I'm an Advocate of Drizzle ban so it doesn't mater to me in any manner whatsoever. :D

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

It's not a question of how Rocks weak your team is. I think we've already dealt with that.
Guaranteed rocks ruin many viable strategies, which gives your Opponent a definite 100% advantage in all his matches.

Spin them. When the oponent sends Gengar use a counter/check to it. Its just like any match. Deoxys-D ability to setup rocks is no different than the metal bird, the bagworm or the pixl.

 

[Soul Fly]

Spin them. When the oponent sends Gengar use a counter/check to it. Its just like any match. Deoxys-D ability to setup rocks is no different than the metal bird, the bagworm or the pixl.

You're forgetting the five other pokemon in his team.

Plus every Rapid spin you make sacrifices momentum. Which includes mindgames with spin blockers + Giving away a move to some set up Mon.

Skarmory doesn't have Deo-D's speed and gets fucked over by taunt + Special moves and the Bagworm is vulnerable to all the things people use to stop Hazarders (and none of those matter to Deo-D) Sleep/Taunt/SE move

Dude, this discussion has already been over all this. Can you do me a favor? read the first 4 pages.

 

[Shurtugal]

Not if stall teams use spin and LO Starmies coverage is threatening enough to safely spin. Do me a favor and stop being stupid. Starmie almost always gets a spin. 2 viable OU ghost and one of then sucks on HO and Starmie beats the other...

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

You're forgetting the five other pokemon in his team.

Plus every Rapid spin you make sacrifices momentum. Which includes mindgames with spin blockers + Giving away a move to some set up Mon.

Dude, this discussion has already been over all this. Can you do me a favor? read the first 4 pages.

Oh yeah sorry forgot about that. Anyway what your post is describing is basically a match. We both have 6 pokemons, we have our own strategies, we might have better matchups, we might gain/lose momentum. But its still a match. Deoxys-D doesnt change anything, its a good OU mon that you need to prepare for. Dont get me wrong, what bothers me is not the fact that Deoxys-D is being suspected, i just want to hear better arguments supporting its ban.

 

[Soul Fly]

Not if stall teams use spin and LO Starmies coverage is threatening enough to safely spin. Do me a favor and stop being stupid. Starmie almost always gets a spin. 2 viable OU ghost and one of then sucks on HO and Starmie beats the other...

Which part of Deo-D =/= HO did you miss? And Gengar is very good with mind games. That's why it's still OU.

 

[Shurtugal]

Starmie will beat Gar most f the time. With mind games Deod can't set up any hazards thanks for that strong point!

 

[Soul Fly]

Oh come on Deo-D is a master at mind games :D
This IS the point. Deo-D will ALWAYS go for the rocks no matter what you threaten to throw at it.

@SmashBros:
Yes, I described a match and momentum is very important. It changes hand at chance occurrences/Superior skill. Rarely does any pokemon like Deo-D put so much pressure by Guaranteeing that you'll have to worry about spinning, there's no other way around it.

 

[Shurtugal]

Mind games with Xatu :D ok so sorry but mindgames argument sucks.

 

[Soul Fly]

Mind games with Xatu :D ok so sorry but mindgames argument sucks.

Xatu sucks. :D

+Skill Swap FTW.

Teh Deoxys shall haunt your dreamzzzzz....

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Oh come on Deo-D is a master at mind games :D
This IS the point. Deo-D will ALWAYS go for the rocks no matter what you threaten to throw at it.

@SmashBros:
Yes, I described a match and momentum is very important. It changes hand at chance occurrences/Superior skill. Rarely does any pokemon like Deo-D put so much pressure by Guaranteeing that you'll have to worry about spinning, there's no other way around it.

If the argument is really going to be ''it setups rocks 100% of the time'' i can only say that THIS thing has bothered me MUCH MORE than Deoxys-D ever did:

 

[Rex Exploder]

Deoxys-D is what currenty makes weatherless teams viable why would you want to get rid of it?
And yes, yes, Deoxys-D is not a the only way to make a weatherless team good, but then again, you don't need Politoed to make a rain team good, you can just paste together a few Rain Dancers amirite?

Do you really want even more of those copy/pasted rain teams to battle with, with the same core of 5 pokémon, and one pokémon swapped?

Deoxys-D is not broken, he plays support, he can get one layer or two up, just like Ferrothorn and Forretress assuming you are not putting them against a Volcarona or something. No reason for ban, especially because his existence promotes actual diversity, and not slapping a wather abuser + 5 abusers and counters

 

[Deluks917]

What teams are convincing people Deo-D is broken:

This is Alexwolf's Deo-D team. He is a very good player. http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3478653

This is a good team. It provides Deo-D with all the support it needs to really shine. But it doesn't seem like you would need to bend over backwards to not lose to it. Having tried the team I would not ban Deo-D based on this.

I have tried multiple different Deo-D teams and they never seemed great to me. The same is not true for Tornadus-T rain. Both my teams and other people's felt very strong (at least if they didn't have jellicent). CTC's and Harsha's rain teams for example just rolled over some teams.

What should I be using to get a better result from Deo-D? One thing I admittedly have not tried is the offensive LO set.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

What teams are convincing people Deo-D is broken:

This is Alexwolf's Deo-D team. He is a very good player. http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3478653

This is a good team. It provides Deo-D with all the support it needs to really shine. But it doesn't seem like you would need to bend over backwards to not lose to it. Having tried the team I would not ban Deo-D based on this.

I have tried multiple different Deo-D teams and they never seemed great to me. The same is not true for Tornadus-T rain. Both my teams and other people's felt very strong (at least if they didn't have jellicent). CTC's and Harsha's rain teams for example just rolled over some teams.

What should I be using to get a better result from Deo-D? One thing I admittedly have not tried is the offensive LO set.

This is a very good point. I dont recall ever seeing someone rolling over teams just cause there were rocks on the oponent side and well thats what deoxys-d does. If you do manage to get 3 layers of spikes too than yes you can roll over any team but when the hell will that happen?

 

[Soul Fly]

If the argument is really going to be ''it setups rocks 100% of the time'' i can only say that THIS thing has bothered me MUCH MORE than Deoxys-D ever did:

Unlike Deo-D Super Effective and STAB moves can actually can OHKO it.
Even Scizor KOs with Bullet Punch.
So does Azumarril in the rain.
No Magic coat, so pranksters just walk all over it.

This thing is really much more inferior to Deo-D. The bulk doesn't even come close.
It's only niche is OU is trick and Explosion (which is sadly nerfed now)