General Doubles Metagame Thread

[Mizuhime]

Contrary to popular believe, a lot of ubers are uber well... because they're uber ! Going back to the post penguinx made, Deoxys Attack can be one of the most threatening pokemon in this meta with the proper support, despite have the defenses of a paper. Follow me togekiss/rage powder amoongus are both great teammates as well as hitmontop. Allowing it to live and kill anything it can touch. As far as people saying Lugia and Ho-oh, I can't take your post seriously. Ho-oh has no counter and amazing spdef, well lugia has multiscale and is hard enough to kill in Ubers let alone smog doubles. Kyurem-b Darkrai and skymin are all amazing pokemon if played well too. Kyurem-b has a base 180 attack and once against paired with the right pokemon it is impossible to deal with. Personally I run mine in trick room. With hail up. Letting partners spam blizzard and it's self if I so choose, it also has the ability to kill almost any bulky water with fusion bolt, Earth power for Heatran/ninetales, pokemon of those kind and not to mention a stab dragon claw or outrage if you so choose. For those saying Uber Pokemon should be brought down or you could easily deal with them, Please re evaluate your posts.

 

[Audiosurfer]

Banning Hitmontop should definitely not be on the table. To ban something, it should be broken and/or overcentralizing to the point of creating an unhealthy metagame. Hitmontop is neither. If you think it's overcentralizing, then you don't know the meaning of the word, as to be overcentralizing the metagame has to become largely defined by it, which isn't the case in terms of Hitmontop. Right now it's just a good utility/support mon, not a threat which the metagame is centered on. This goes for anyone thinking of talking suspects really. The metagame's too early for it anyways, but even if it wasn't, be sure to keep in mind what qualifies something as broken before talking about potential suspects.

 

[Mizuhime]

I'd also like to point out that I have been playing with Deoxy-s Attack today, I've been running an all out attacker well holding a life orb, And i've paired it with a Himontop, Running quick guard, wide guard, fake out and Close combat, For those saying deo-a is a bad pokemon, once again, Try to test it before criticizing it

 

[Skore]

For those saying Uber Pokemon should be brought down or you could easily deal with them, Please re evaluate your posts.

Rock Slide. At least one poke on every one of my teams seems to carry this move. Discharge. Surf.
Ho-oh for all of it's bulk and power carries a lot of weaknesses to common spread moves in Doubles and only has a base speed of 90 leaving it open to be double teamed by a lot of mons.

Yes it's undoubtedly Uber in singles but in doubles it doesn't seem so threatening but as it's not part of the doubles meta we can't say for certainty how it or any other pokemon banned to Uber in singles would fare.

Perhaps if Doubles took off enough to become a true Smogon meta these things could be tested but until they are, opinions are opinions are opinions.

I tried that Deoxys-A/Togekiss combo PenguinX posted.
It does indeed wreck shit. But if I hadn't equipped Deo with a Focus Sash he wouldn't have lasted beyond 2 turns and if you're opponent is smart he'll get around the Follow Me combo by using spread moves.

 

[youngjake93]

"let alone smog doubles"... What in ubers can match helping hand dragon gem draco meteor? Or +2 specs gastro in rain? Why do you act like ubers has more power than doubles? It's not even a comparison how much more power is dished out in doubles.
Plus fake out breaks multiscale for lugia and stops ho oh from using a powerful attack, then they get KOed.
Follow me support for deo-a doesn't work because ANY spread move beats it. Plus you can only have to KO, taunt or sleep the follow me user.

Edit: i've used deo a and it is good, but it is a liability to have a pokemon on your team that dies faster than charmander even with support.
Edit2: lol everyone used hitmontop support in their argument for why a pokemon is good but yell at me when I say that hitmontop is the closest thing doubles has to broken

.... Didn't say top was broken, just the closest thing to broken that doubles has. There isn't anything 'more broken'. Oh and lots of things can outperform ho oh/deoA with top support. Victini for example

 

[Audiosurfer]

1. You can test them. Doubles matches are easily made with the Custom Game option on PS! and there's a ladder for the standard Smogon Doubles metagame, so the points being made can be tested.
2. There are plenty of ways to get around a base 90 speed in Doubles. Fake Out, Tailwind, Icy Wind, Thunder Wave and Flame Charge (3 of those moves are things it carries on its own) are all viable ways to increase speed, and those are just a few.
3. It's got great bulk, a huge attack, and a great attacking combo. Combine that with its great abilities and you've got a threat that shouldn't be in the Doubles metagame. Even if you could try wearing it down it could switch out, get the Regenerator health restoration, and continue later. And with a 130 Atk stat and a great STAB combination not much will be taking hits from it for long, especially with Sacred Fire's 50% burn chance.
4. Its other weaknesses are easily rectified. A lead with Ho-Oh + Hitmontop would rectify just about all of those weaknesses, with Hitmontop being able to provide Fake Out support so Ho-Oh could rip apart the flinched mon, Intimidate patching up its lesser Defensive stat, and Wide Guard shielding it from spread moves. All you'd need is standard hitmontop and a Ho-Oh moveset of Sacred Fire/Brave Bird/Protect/? (probably Tailwind but it could be many things based on preference) to wreck the opposition.
So yeah, Ho-Oh's definitely a threat to Doubles. If Kyu-B is a huge threat in Doubles with its Ice typing and slow speed, then how Ho-Oh wouldn't be even more threatening is beyond me.

EDIT: People are yelling at you because there's a very clear line between good and broken which you don't seem to grasp. My previous post outlines the reasons why. But on the Ho-Oh point, when the only support needed for a mon's weaknesses to be covered is readily provided by one of the most used mons in the tier, your argument has a problem.

 

[Quantum]

If you guys want anyone to take this format seriously we need to quit with the ridiculous "Hitmontop (etc) is broken" allegations. I don't know about the rest of you but I'd like to see this format become an official Smogon metagame, but conversations like this just give off the impression that this metagame is a joke that isn't worth people's time. I'm saying this as someone who is currently in an IRC channel, watching this metagame being ridiculed by influential VGC players as a result of posts like this. If we can't convince VGC players that SmogDubs is worth playing then we certainly aren't convincing any singles players.

Sounds more like arrogance and snide remarks than actual criticism. I wonder who who are these influential players that are judging the closest style of competitive play to their own based only on a handful of comments in a single thread? I would recommend these players take a step back and look at the bigger picture.


Keep in mind that double battling has existed since 2003 and the Video Game Championship has been popular since 2009, including well before that if you consider Japanese tournaments. Also keep in mind that the VGC's rules and ban lists yield a completely different style of play compared to a standardized, 6v6 Doubles format, as is currently being established for what is for all intents and purposes the very first time in Smogon's history. Correct me if I am wrong, but the conversations I have had with VGC players in IRC channels convinces me that they play the VGC for every reason other than it is doubles. There is nothing wrong with that, however I would not rely so heavily on the judgement of one community that has prospered under the years long support of both the website and Smogon community at large, when Smogon Doubles has just recently been established, and which is also provided material incentive to play by being an officially sanctioned format by the Pokemon Company.

There is no rationale reason to oppose a standard doubles metagame. The current banlist may be questionable and there may be some players making claims that go against our preconceived notions of how competitive metagames ought to be, notions that have been reinforced over years and years in the absence of doubles, but the fact of the matter is that there is no precedent for a standard doubles metagame. Period. Double battling has existed as a style of play for many years before the Video Game Championship, but whereas the Video Game Championship picked up momentum nearly at its inception, doubles has found support only now.

People have not been playing doubles for different reasons than you have expressed and it is that exact fear of criticism and unwillingness to stand up that is an actual threat to this effort. I have nothing but respect for you for being interested in the development of a standard doubles metagame. Regular advertising, tournaments, creative team building, and encouragement of new players and new ideas are what will help this style of play grow.

 

[Audiosurfer]

Plenty of people have been willing to play Smogon Doubles (as shown by the amount of battles on the ladder for the month), and from what I got from his post the criticisms weren't in regards to the banlist of the metagame either. The problem PenguinX is citing is with the quality of posts on the thread, which gives the impression that the metagame isn't a serious one and thus it won't be taken seriously by others, ultimately decreasing its quality. I agree with you that there should be encouragement of new players participating, but at the same time people need to be mindful of having quality posts, as opposed to those that serve mainly to clutter up the thread without contributing to any discussion or offering any real points. Pwnemon made a good post about it that I think offer some good guidelines to follow in terms of posting. I don't think that what the players on that particular IRC channel said was meant to be constructive either, but I do think that people's opinion on the metagame is important to consider, especially from players of a Doubles metagame that's been proven successful. Although it's good to have the metagame grow in terms of a pure numbers standpoint, what's just as important if not more so is growing in terms of quality.

 

[HabibsHotDogs]

Victini and Kyurem-B are far too strong in this meta atm.

Fusion bolt + Fusion flare become very strong together and you either have a STAB base power 200 move that is more powerful than V create (especially powerful in sun) or you have a non-STAB fusion bolt coming of 170 base attack with 200 power.

Its so overwhelming and... difficult to counter, it's basically helping hand without your partner sitting useless and a lot of the pokemon that can absorb a fusion flare won't like the fusion bolt.

It doesn't help that Victini increases the accuracy of both of their moves by 10%.. they have 130 BP moves..

 

[Synre]

While I wasn't one of the players active in that discussion in this time, I wouldn't take it as a slight to this project. While I don't think there are too many VGC players who are particularly excited about this, a lot of us have dabbled with it. While I personally can't imagine every playing it seriously I think we all had some fun with it, though most of us were using troll teams (some more aggressively than others, said Synre as he Swaggered as many physical attackers as possible). I would not let that sort of discussion get to you: I think what they were more poking fun at was the lack of experience some of the players have rather than the metagame idea itself, which is leading to them complaining about things we don't consider to be very powerful.

You need to remember, most of us have been playing doubles pretty seriously for several years, so when we see some comments here from players who have probably only been playing it for a couple weeks talking about how Pokemon and strategies that aren't very good in our eyes are broken or whatever it is hard for us not to be a little condescending. This probably goes extra for those of us who have actually played the ladder a bit, because the level of play is not what we're used to yet... and it shouldn't be at this point. I'd just have fun learning doubles and developing your game and not worrying too much about what any of the VGC folks think yet.



I had a hard time getting a real feel for the metagame laddering a bit today, partially because I was trying to troll rather than trying to win but also because I felt like a good chunk of players I hit hadn't really figured out the game enough yet to get in the type of game where I could evaluate how strong the Pokemon we were using actually were (not switching nearly often enough, not using Protect nearly enough, not recognizing when their Pokemon were being threatened, rarely disrupting what was I was doing even when they'd seen it already) because the environment is going to change a lot once player skill improves, but I did think some of the stuff unique to this ruleset over VGCs was kind of fun and maybe there were a couple things I would consider reevaluating.

I feel like some of the rules (Evasion, Sleep, OHKO, Moody clauses) that are holdovers from singles metagames are pretty unnecessary since I am used to playing with all of those things allowed and they largely aren't good strategies, but some of the stuff here that I'm not used to (the event mons, mostly) were pretty fun and it is cool that there is a metagame somewhere that they can be used. I was expecting some of them (Manaphy, Victini, Kyurem-B to name a few) to be stronger than they are but they fit decently well. I suspect some of them may wind up being a little too much, but I'd hope you guys wait a while to start making judgement calls on that stuff because I don't think from what I've read and from what I saw on the ladder most of the playerbase is ready to make that sort of judgement call yet. I'm a little envious of some of the options this metagame has for TR setters that can actually do stuff offensively and some of the options for setting screens though, I think that's the main metagame difference between this doubles format and VGC beyond the extra threats in themselves: there are some interesting tricks that aren't replicated well with the non-legendary Pokemon available here.

The 6v6 thing actually changes some stuff too, since it prevents Pokemon who function as matchup techs in VGC not to work since they have to fight every battle (which I think is mostly a good thing). It's way easier to lose on team matchups int his, but I think it also has a fun impact on making some strategies better. I had kind of an interesting experience with that since I was playing a team I had basically played before in VGC though I edited it to use some mons that are banned in VGC and changed a Pokemon to be more obnoxious and then intentionally played the team incorrectly, but the premise of the team actually works a lot better in the longer 6v6 battles, especially because I could pick all of my support Pokemon without hampering my offense due to the extra slots. Kind of a fun diversion for me.

 

[BlueCookies]

but the fact of the matter is that there is no precedent for a standard doubles metagame. Period. Double battling has existed as a style of play for many years before the Video Game Championship, but whereas the Video Game Championship picked up momentum nearly at its inception, doubles has found support only now.

Huh? No precedent? Support only now? There is a thing called GBU that's been around for an entire generation of Pokemon. 08 had a small scale irl VGC tournament series, and in 09 and ever since it's exploded.

The real question and criticism I've seen people have (and why no serious VGCers play this and why none probably ever will) is why play this when you could play GBU rules (which are also the same as VGC, for the past 2 seasons at least)? And if you live somewhere that holds irl VGC tournaments have an excuse to hang out with fellow pokemon people and potentially win prizes.

I personally don't care at all if you guys want smogon to have their own doubles metagame and want to build a nice small community for it, that's fine. But for players legitimately interested in doubles I would definitely recommend focusing more on VGC rather than this. You would be playing against stronger competition which definitely helps improve your skills a lot more. The events themselves are a lot of fun and who knows, with enough practice put in you could be the next Wolfe Glick (total newcomer to VGC, goes on to win regionals, win nationals, top 8 worlds all in his first year, and then of course doing even better this year).

 

[Bent1ey]

my solution to shuckle teams?

they can't stand up to my muddy water/surf.

honestly if you think accupressure is broken i will need a lot more convincing evidence because if you're giving your opponent enough free turns to use it you are probably shit.

You can give Accupressure boosts to your ally even while they are protecting so it can be an interesting and devastating move under certain circumstances. I'm personally more of a Drapion user than a Shuckle one.

 

[Darkmalice]

Huh? No precedent? Support only now? There is a thing called GBU that's been around for an entire generation of Pokemon. 08 had a small scale irl VGC tournament series, and in 09 and ever since it's exploded.

The real question and criticism I've seen people have (and why no serious VGCers play this and why none probably ever will) is why play this when you could play GBU rules (which are also the same as VGC, for the past 2 seasons at least)? And if you live somewhere that holds irl VGC tournaments have an excuse to hang out with fellow pokemon people and potentially win prizes.

I personally don't care at all if you guys want smogon to have their own doubles metagame and want to build a nice small community for it, that's fine. But for players legitimately interested in doubles I would definitely recommend focusing more on VGC rather than this. You would be playing against stronger competition which definitely helps improve your skills a lot more. The events themselves are a lot of fun and who knows, with enough practice put in you could be the next Wolfe Glick (total newcomer to VGC, goes on to win regionals, win nationals, top 8 worlds all in his first year, and then of course doing even better this year).

You could argue the same thing for single battling. We have GBU Singles and yet we still have a single metagame which is essentially the single equivalent of our doubles metagame. Obviously, there's no VGC for singles, but not all countries have access to the VGC metagame, and those countries would be more likely to play in a metagame without VGC rules, as it's more relevant to them. (People from these countries probably play 6 vs 6 IR, as that's the easiest way to initiate a match without resorting to Wifi (for reference, EVERY match I've seen played in Australia excluding Wifi matches, both friendly and tourny matches, has been via IR); this ruleset is more similar to the doubles Smogon 6v6 metagame than VGC rules.

I agree that VGC players are much more skilled though.

 

[Pocket]

BlueCookies, Smogon Doubles is not merely about competition. We are not here to waste countless hours RNGing and training Pokemon to attend an annual irl tournament. Our mission is more overarching than that: to cultivate a strong doubles culture here at Smogon. We want to realize a forum for active metagame discussion of Doubles and establish a solid playerbase on online simulator Showdown! We want to carve a Doubles metagame defined by Smogon community and not by some company. Ultimately, we aim for Doubles to be seriously regarded here as a competitive metagame the way any of the Singles meta have been treated in the past decade. Now THAT is unprecedented.

If you don't appreciate our endeavor, then fine w/e idgf. However, please don't come here on your high horse and discourage players from participating in this hatchling metagame. Your post is far worse than any of the one-liner posts that have littered this post recently. At least be useful and share some of your doubles knowledge honed by VGC or don't post at all. Bottom line: don't be a cancer to Doubles discussion.

PenguinX, I have actually posted about Deoxys-A recently herehttp://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4563528&postcount=396. Life Orb is imo mandatory on Deoxys-A, since the power loss is notable. I've paired Deoxys-A with Fake Out users, but Rage Powder / Follow Me certainly sounds helpful (except spread moves not named unSTABed Icy Wind would still kill Deo-A). I should try Exeggutor's Hitmontop's suggestion, since Fake Out + Wide Guard would be a pretty darn useful support for Deoxys-A. The only problem is that the pair have no means of getting past Cresselia easily.

Oh yea, and we're not banning anything any time soon - the metagame needs much more time to settle.

 

[Firestorm]

First Darkmalice says Australia doesn't have WiFi and now Pocket says he can't count to one. This thread is incredibly confusing :(

Anyway, Ray did share something very important that both you and Darkmalice missed. There has been multiple years of development in doubles and for some reason most people are ignoring that in their team-building. Your metagame would feel a lot more developed if you used that as a starting point rather than starting from scratch, but being terrible is fun in its own right and makes this metagame feel really nostalgic. Reading some of your posts where you discover things for the first time in particular bring a bit of a smile to my face because I can remember back when we discovered those things for the first time as well and how excited we were! It's good to see more players getting introduced to doubles battling.

 

[BlueCookies]

BlueCookies, Smogon Doubles is not merely about competition. We are not here to waste countless hours RNGing and training Pokemon to attend an annual irl tournament. Our mission is more overarching than that: to cultivate a strong doubles culture here at Smogon. We want to realize a forum for active metagame discussion of Doubles and establish a solid playerbase on online simulator Showdown! We want to carve a Doubles metagame defined by Smogon community and not by some company. Ultimately, we aim for Doubles to be seriously regarded here as a competitive metagame the way any of the Singles meta have been treated in the past decade. Now THAT is unprecedented.

If you don't appreciate our endeavor, then fine w/e idgf. However, please don't come here on your high horse and discourage players from participating in this hatchling metagame. Your post is far worse than any of the one-liner posts that have littered this post recently. At least be useful and share some of your doubles knowledge honed by VGC or don't post at all. Bottom line: don't be a cancer to Doubles discussion.

PenguinX, I have actually posted about Deoxys-A recently herehttp://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4563528&postcount=396. Life Orb is imo mandatory on Deoxys-A, since the power loss is notable. I've paired Deoxys-A with Fake Out users, but Rage Powder / Follow Me certainly sounds helpful (except spread moves not named unSTABed Icy Wind would still kill Deo-A). I should try Exeggutor's Hitmontop's suggestion, since Fake Out + Wide Guard would be a pretty darn useful support for Deoxys-A. The only problem is that the pair have no means of getting past Cresselia easily.

Oh yea, and we're not banning anything any time soon - the metagame needs much more time to settle.

As if VGC is merely about competition...Countless hours RNG'ing and training? I guess if you're trying to rng every pokemon in existence and don't know that online simulators exist. One annual irl tournament? Try 5 per year and many more Wi-Fi tournaments that count towards the year's standings. Not by some company? I guess the creators of the game you play is just some company. If you look at it from a worldwide view and not just a smogon-centric view, doubles already is regarded as a serious competitive metagame, just as singles is. If VGC only got a small fraction of the support that Smogon's OU singles metagame got, when it is an actual legitimate metagame supported by the company that creates the games and played by tons of people worldwide, I don't see how Smogon Doubles will ever get the same kind of support. Especially when 99% of the world's top doubles players (Whether from the US, Japan, Korea, Spain, wherever) don't play it and quite frankly don't care about it. As I said last post I don't care at all that you guys are doing this. Building a small, tight-knit community like I heard metagames like little cup or underused have is cool. I'm just trying to grow the game, and if players here are truly interested in double battles, recommending that they check out VGC instead, an already existing standard doubles metagame with countless more players and countless more skilled players.

 

[Nix_Hex]

Hi, can we keep the VGC vs. Smogon Doubles talk to a minimum and by a minimum i mean shut up about it completely?
Pocket: VGC is competitive and communal. It's a wonderful metagame and a world-wide yet tight-knit community. What you are saying is pretty insulting to VGC players, of which I am one.

BlueCookies: Smogon has not had support for its own Doubles metagame. We are trying to do that right now. I knew it would only be a matter of time before VGC players came to this thread and started advertising VGC. As a Smogon Doubles player and "a leader" of this tier, I'm asking you to stop with that.

 

[Bent1ey]

There is no need to compare Smogon Doubles and VCG, they are individual and truly independant formats each bringing different features to players who -like me- enjoy battling with multiple pokemon the best. This is entirely evident... Why you'd want to oppose them it's beyond me.

Its a shame that we cannot fix Sky Drop for the simulators...

 

[Quantum]

First Darkmalice says Australia doesn't have WiFi and now Pocket says he can't count to one. This thread is incredibly confusing :(

Anyway, Ray did share something very important that both you and Darkmalice missed. There has been multiple years of development in doubles and for some reason most people are ignoring that in their team-building. Your metagame would feel a lot more developed if you used that as a starting point rather than starting from scratch, but being terrible is fun in its own right and makes this metagame feel really nostalgic. Reading some of your posts where you discover things for the first time in particular bring a bit of a smile to my face because I can remember back when we discovered those things for the first time as well and how excited we were! It's good to see more players getting introduced to doubles battling.

I ask, to what are these multiple years of development actually referring? If you mean to say that half a decade of four vs. four double battling under Nintendo's officially sanctioned format, a metagame which has not yet had consistent rules for an extended period of time and has sometimes been radically different year to year, should have bearing on a brand new style of standardized doubles, then that would be correct in one way, but wrong in another. If you mean that there has been 6v6 standardized Doubles going on behind the scenes for some time, then I wish I had known about it!

6v6 standardized Doubles and the VGC are very close to each other. They even share a similar origin as styles of play that were misunderstood by the competitive community at large, but eventually became accepted through the hard work and success of its players (though Doubles is not quite there yet). Because they are both double battling, it certainly follows that there will be overlap in strategies and usage, as well as what is viable and what is not. That much should be obvious and I will not argue against that because I agree with it.

It is wrong, however, to believe that the experiences and anecdotes from the VGC community are common enough knowledge to influence new Smogon Doubles players and the rest of those currently playing, because they are not not common, or readily available knowledge. I do not know what won the Video Game Championship last year, nor do I participate in the VGC, or read the analysis that are on Smogon's website, or have a clique of collaborators to conspire with. I am totally unconcerned with the Video Game Championship and so I know very little about it. It is irrational to assume that because Hitmontop was a star player one year in the VGC, that it would remain a star in subsequent years, and so that should indicate to every player starting out in standard Doubles that the factors that make certain Pokemon effective in the VGC should necessarily translate to Smogon Doubles, never mind if they even know about the Video Game Championship. Whether or not that the VGC and Smogon Doubles directly translate, the relationship between the two cannot be assumed to be obvious. I have no idea if Hitmontop, whether it has Intimidate or Technician, is currently viable in the VGC. It might be, I imagine it is, but I know the qualities that make Hitmontop effective in standard Doubles for all reasons except for knowledge of the VGC.* The same goes for the likes of Cresselia and weather.


I also want to address the primary substance of your post, namely the last bold portion. I do not know if your intent was to sound flippant, or if you were not know completely aware what you were writing, but what you have expressed in your post as a whole is a condescending apathy towards Smogon Doubles and it is not worth discerning why. You do make a point and that is that Smogon Doubles should take inspiration from the VGC, which I agree with, but everything following that is totally irrelevant to the effort of establishing a standard Doubles metagame. I do not think anyone cares who you or what "we" are when you insult a brand new metagame that has never had this much support in the decade since its game mechanics were programmed, and when you insult those players who are trying to enrich the diversity of the Smogon competitive community.

I look forward to hearing more from you. You seem to have been playing doubles in whatever form for a while and you have expressed an interest in this metagame. I am interested in your opinions. I recommend, however, that you be more careful with what you express in your posts.



*I want to point out that I am not ignorant of the Video Game Championship, nor am I knocking it. I have built teams and battled somewhat seriously since 2010, but I do not do anything VGC related anymore. My experiences with both Nintendo's format compared to a standardized Doubles format lead me to believe that the relationship between the VGC and Smogon Doubles is not as direct as it may seem.

 

[Pocket]

I did not think my post was insulting; just stern.

I understand that VGC is an internationally acclaimed metagame that have support from Game Freak. VGC's well established popularity is obvious, and it's irrelevant to the development of Smogon Doubles. Unless you want to help Smogon Doubles grow by sharing specific Doubles information and strategy then I would be immensely thankful. Posting about how "VGC is better than Smogon Doubles," is NOT okay, though, lol!

Firestorm, many of us are new to Doubles, but that's the point! Bringing singles players of Smogon to enjoy Doubles. VGC have been around for a few years now, but have not managed to accomplish this in our community. The fact that most of you "left" our community manifests this shortcoming. Obviously we'll be finding strategies on our own that may have been polished over the years in VGC - that's a part of exploring a metagame by new pioneers. Feel free to join us and help guide us to where VGC people are at!

 

[Skore]

So I ran into a guy using a Smack Down Earthquake strat today. Thought it was a pretty novel combo that bordered on "duh that's so obvious why haven't I thought of that?!"

He was using a Torandus-I and Lando-T and if I hadn't protected my Rotom-H on the first turn waiting on my TR-setter to set up it would have started badly for me.

 

[Stratos]

As nixhex said, we are trying to get Smogon into doubles. Smogon will never be into a tier they can't make for themselves; after vgc completely died and nugget bridge was formed, i think you guys would have a hard time denying this. we don't care if we're "inferior" to vgc or what-have-you, bluecookies, and we don't care what the hell nintendo does with its ruleset or to hear your personal gripes with how "stupid" it is, quantum.

our target playerbase is mostly users who think singles is a bit "stale" and would like to try out doubles. if our smog articles seemed to be overly basic in their strategies, well, sue us, as firestorm correctly said we're overly basic. i started playing doubles in early january and am one of the best veterans of this tier, which should tell you what kind of knowledge level we're dealing with. just because you've been winning vgcs since before i knew what ev's were doesn't give you the right to be condescending and it definitely doesn't mean that you should try and rip out our love for this meta by the roots. i realize that our metas being similar means that you will probably want to campaign that nugget bridge is better; please don't. we don't go over there and mention smogon doubles (to be fair probably because we'd be laughed out) and you don't need to come over here to mention vgc. everyone knows who you are, if they cared they'd already be over there, and there's more than enough players to go around.

i do realize that vgc veterans have infinitely more knowledge about how to play doubles, and what strategies are viable, than i do. i don't find it likely, but if any of you were to make a post about what you've been observing in this metagame, some vgc strategies you tried and how they worked, or what you wish the ladder was more like, i would probably commit every word to memory. if any of you were on #nuggetbridge last night you'd have noticed i stopped by (hoping to catch a discussion about vgc and getting cockblocked by basketball). and if i were to face you seriously in smogon doubles, even though you're just checking out the meta for shits and giggles, i'd probably be wrecked in a matter of seconds. that doesn't mean you need to stomp out our meta. what we're doing here is just how a meta evolves, right now we're in the "everyone is a fucking noob" stage and if you're disgusted by our lack of knowledge and only want to torment us then please leave. i'm here to learn, i'd love to battle one of you guys to accomplish that goal but a post like ray's is doing nothing for anybody.

and as to firestorm: most of us, at least, recognize that vgc has years of prior knowledge to teach to us. unfortunately few of us have any of it, and vgc players are unlikely to condescend to our level to help us out (those who have played around on the smogon doubles ladder are basically all using troll teams ;_;) basically what pocket said—feel free to go stomp us on the ladder until we cry to our mommas but the way vgc players have been acting recently has basically been to seclude themselves more and more from smogon, which isn't conducive to teaching people who want to learn about doubles. (that said i plan on spending more and more time on nugget bridge so i can learn and use that knowledge in this meta, but the fact is when there's a vast reserve of knowledge nobody can tap into, don't be lamenting that we're not using it).

now let's talk about doubles please

EDIT @ above: Gravity+EQ is probably better than Smack Down+EQ in every conceivable circumstance, considering it affects both opponents and is not reset on the switch or blocked by protect, follow me, etc. Still, Gravity+EQ truly can be menacing if you have nothing to outspeed or revenge. Musharna is an obvious choice for telepathy preventing it from being hit by a partner's earthquakes.

 

[Antar]

As someone who's been playing 6v6 doubles for years, I'd like to point out that VGC and 6v6 Doubles play pretty damn differently, almost as differently as Standard Singles plays from 3v3 "Nintendo Singles."

On a 4v4 team, you really only have room for one strategy--a full team of six allows you the freedom to make teams that are much more "robust," let's say, that incorporate MULTIPLE strategies and aren't just one-trick ponies.

 

[Mizuhime]

This thread took a turn for the worst very quickly. Frankly i'm quite shocked at how immature some people can be. I question why VGC players feel the need to come here and bash an idea that's just starting up. We get that you're more experienced and may feel like this is bad for the doubles community, but you can look at it we're just bringing more people to a side of pokemon that they may of not participated in before. Yes Smogon is full of mainly Singles players, but don't you think that trying something like this may bring more popularity to the doubles community, and maybe even VGC if they do decide to be more competitive about it? The disrespect that was brought to this thread wasn't needed in anyway whats so ever, if you don't like what we're doing, no one's asking you to stay.

 

[BlueCookies]

...a brand new metagame that has never had this much support in the decade since its game mechanics were programmed, and when you insult those players who are trying to enrich the diversity of the Smogon competitive community.

never had this much support??? there's a difference between "smogon's support" and "support". there is in fact life outside smogon when it comes to doubles, and the support is far greater than what this project hopes of obtaining. I'm not going to respond to anything else you posted because nixhex obviously doesn't want this thread to get offtopic and I respect that and I respect you trying to make your own doubles community, but posts like your entire post and pockets post that I responded to earlier are just plain ignorant and I couldn't help but respond.

here, I'll get back on topic:

As someone who's been playing 6v6 doubles for years, I'd like to point out that VGC and 6v6 Doubles play pretty damn differently, almost as differently as Standard Singles plays from 3v3 "Nintendo Singles."

On a 4v4 team, you really only have room for one strategy--a full team of six allows you the freedom to make teams that are much more "robust," let's say, that incorporate MULTIPLE strategies and aren't just one-trick ponies.

Actually, while 6v6 and 4v4 would definitely have some slight differences, no successful 4v4 teams ever have only have 1 strategy or are one trick ponies. The ones that are never have any kind of success. I think 6v6 and 4v4 doubles is very comparable. Of course you guys have a lot of pokemon that are banned in VGC, and I see some of them (Mew, Victini, Genesect, etc) as well as a lack of item clause as the things that make it different from VGC more than it being 6v6. I think your comparison between 6v6 singles and 3v3 singles to 6v6 doubles and 4v4 doubles is very far off.