Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Deglas]

froslass is a completely different story. i've tried and tried, and i still don't see a niche for this thing in the ou tier. without snow cloak legal anymore, its only viable set is a lead sasher that essentially spikes up, attempts to catch something with destiny bond, and then dies. one of the major flaws of this set is that it's completely beaten by any variant of tyranitar. ttar uses crunch as froslass gets a layer of spikes and is brought down to its sash, then sand finishes it off. froslass can't even use destiny bond, because when weather kills you, destiny bond won't activate even if the pokemon bonded to is the weather inducer in question. it also has literally no offensive presence, with a measly base special attack of 80 and a movepool consisting of ice beam, shadow ball, thunderbolt, and not much else. and with defenses of 70 / 70 / 70, plus a weakness to steel, it can't even act as a decent spinblocker. there is no place for froslass in ou.

Lavos Spawn you might want to try the set I run. I run Focus Sash, Cursed Body, 252 SpA/252+ Spe Spikes, Ice Beam, Shadow Ball, HP Fire.
It tends to either get two layers down reliably or one layer and a major KO (like Scizor). I've had great success with it, and it's unexpectedness (most expect Taunt, Detiny Bond, and an uninvested attacking move) has sometimes allowed it to deal damage to large parts of an opponents team (an example that has happened to me. Opponent leads with Scizor, is fried by HP Fire. They figure that HP Fire was my one attacking move, send in Dragonite to set up. Dragonite eats an Ice Beam and is in KO range now, they send in something else, which I can hit with Shadow Ball. That goes down, and I get a layer of Spikes.) It also beats all spinners/Magic Bouncers/Deo-D one-on-one, other than Tentacruel. And, as I mentioned before, Scald is only a 3HKO without investment, meaning you get 3 layers down. 80 base SpA isn't that bad either, especially when you consider how useful its STABs are in the current metagame. Also, its speed means that with Focus Sash it only needs to 2HKO a threat to eliminate it. Froslass is also bulkier than you give it credit for. An uninvested Landorus-T (and this is only for the sake of example) using Stone Edge on an uninvested froslass has only a 68.75% chance to OHKO. Tyranitar still sucks though, but you can always not lead with Froslass and hold it in reserve as a semi-offensive Pokemon/emergency Spiker. I personally would actually be willing to push Froslass for B rank as it is very useful, but not good enough for a higher rank.

 

[Magcargo]

I already did this, but nobody cared:P.
I would like to nominate Metagross for B Rank. It is not as good as it was in D/P, but it still is a great pokemon to use. While it is often labeled outclassed by Jirachi and bronzong, the combination of raw bulk and power give it a niche of being a bulky attacker. With full HP investment, Metagross can tank hits like life orb Thundorus-T's Tbolt. It also has good coverage, if you give it the right moves. However, it does have the four moveslot syndrome

 

[Bent1ey]

I'm not sure Metagross makes it to B in the current meta, he's definitively outclassed by Jirachi because of its shallow movepool and the inferior special bulk. Its STABs are not good against any important threat on the meta barring Terrakion -and Keldeo I guess, but you cannot really outspeed it and its attacks hurt quite a lot-, its coverage moves are mediocre and they barely allow it to perform correctly. It needs lots of support because you cannot just put it into any team and expect it to perform. It has its strengths, but I think it remains pretty niche.

 

[Pikachuu]

Anyone else think Tyranitar should be S rank specially now with Genesect and Tornadus-T gone? I used to think it was a mediocre pokemon but after using him for hundreds of battles it's a really good pokemon I would almost go as far as to say he's broken. The set I'm talking about is Choice Band Tyranitar. With the sandstorm boosting his special defense he has little trouble coming in on battle unlike Terrakion and Politoed. Sure common weaknesses to fighting ground and steel suck but that's why you have 5 other Pokemon. Tyranitar is a huge threat first and weather inducer second. Tyranitar is one of the few pokemon that can OHKO Deoxys-D limiting it to only setting up Stealth Rock. Tyranitar can easily eliminates non-defensive Politoed, Jolteon, Blissey, Heatran, Celebi, Starmie, Stoutland (locked into Return) Jellicent, Gothitelle, Lati@s, Xatu, Espeon, Magnezone etc. There's probably a ton more that I missed but this is just from the top of my head. This is just one set though. Tyranitar can also fit on any team and reliably set up Stealth Rock. Now let's compare Tyranitar to Politoed who is currently S-rank. Sure Politoed may have Drizzle but can't hit that hard without Choice Specs and any team who doesn't have a water resist Pokemon is just asking for trouble honestly. When using Politoed you will find that it's very difficult to win the weather war against sand teams with either Hippo or Tyranitar. Tyranitar 2HKO's defensive Politoed with Crunch and relying on a Scald burn isn't a good idea to win the weather war. Saving Politoed until the end is also a bad idea as most of the battle would have been sand so you will have to switch in Politoed sooner or later to activate Drizzle. Now let's compare Drizzle to Sandstorm. Drizzle helps the team in a lot of ways such as weakening fire moves and powering up water moves. It also makes stuff like Thunder and Hurrican have 100% accuracy and helps abilities such as Rain Dish and Hydration. Now Sandstorm. It makes anything not Steel Rock or Ground take damage every turn also helps against Focus Sashes. Boosts special defense of Rock type Pokemon looking at you Tyranitar and Terrakion. Terrakion is already pretty bulky for a offensive Pokemon but a special defense boost means it's going to be hard to knock it out with a special move. Pokemon such as Sandslash and Stoutland get their speed doubled in sandstorm turning them into scary pokemon. I think that's pretty much it? so yeah Drizzle is more helpful to a team than Sandstream but the problem is rain teams rely way too much on Politoed to be effective while sand teams don't rely on sand that much. Now when comparing it to Hippowdon who I have heard some of you argue that it's better at winning the weather war. I found this to be not true. First of all Hippowdon struggles against Politoed and Ninetales more so than Tyranitar. Second while it may have amazing physical bulk it really can't deal much damage back and will have to keep on recovering totally ruining your momentum. Sand is really mainly to have an answer to other weather but as I said earlier Tyranitar is a huge threat first so it is why it is so easy to fit on any team because not only does your team gain an answer to other weather but it also gains a Pokemon that can tear holes at the same time which is why I believe Tyranitar is an S-rank Pokemon.

Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

Tyranitar fits that very well.

 

[Schpoonman]

It's niche. I love Metagross, the manliest Pokémon to ever exist, but he's terribly niche. Steel isn't a very good STAB (it's more a testament to the rest of Scizor that he makes it work so damn well) and his poor speed undermines his offensive. He's an underrated Stealth Rocker, though.

Okay, for the longest time I thought he had 70/130/70 defenses, and I just checked and he has 80/130/90 defenses. That's pretty fucking good, moreso when backed up by Steel/Psychic, but Metagross is still a C-rank Pokémon at best.

 

[Schpoonman]

Anyone else think Tyranitar should be S rank specially now with Genesect and Tornadus-T gone? I used to think it was a mediocre pokemon but after using him for hundreds of battles it's a really good pokemon I would almost go as far as to say he's broken. The set I'm talking about is Choice Band Tyranitar. With the sandstorm boosting his special defense he has little trouble coming in on battle unlike Terrakion and Politoed. Sure common weaknesses to fighting ground and steel suck but that's why you have 5 other Pokemon. Tyranitar is a huge threat first and weather inducer second. Tyranitar is one of the few pokemon that can OHKO Deoxys-D limiting it to only setting up Stealth Rock. Tyranitar can easily eliminates non-defensive Politoed, Jolteon, Blissey, Heatran, Celebi, Starmie, Stoutland (locked into Return) Jellicent, Gothitelle, Lati@s, Xatu, Espeon, Magnezone etc. There's probably a ton more that I missed but this is just from the top of my head. This is just one set though. Tyranitar can also fit on any team and reliably set up Stealth Rock. Now let's compare Tyranitar to Politoed who is currently S-rank. Sure Politoed may have Drizzle but can't hit that hard without Choice Specs and any team who doesn't have a water resist Pokemon is just asking for trouble honestly. When using Politoed you will find that it's very difficult to win the weather war against sand teams with either Hippo or Tyranitar. Tyranitar 2HKO's defensive Politoed with Crunch and relying on a Scald burn isn't a good idea to win the weather war. Saving Politoed until the end is also a bad idea as most of the battle would have been sand so you will have to switch in Politoed sooner or later to activate Drizzle. Now let's compare Drizzle to Sandstorm. Drizzle helps the team in a lot of ways such as weakening fire moves and powering up water moves. It also makes stuff like Thunder and Hurrican have 100% accuracy and helps abilities such as Rain Dish and Hydration. Now Sandstorm. It makes anything not Steel Rock or Ground take damage every turn also helps against Focus Sashes. Boosts special defense of Rock type Pokemon looking at you Tyranitar and Terrakion. Terrakion is already pretty bulky for a offensive Pokemon but a special defense boost means it's going to be hard to knock it out with a special move. Pokemon such as Sandslash and Stoutland get their speed doubled in sandstorm turning them into scary pokemon. I think that's pretty much it? so yeah Drizzle is more helpful to a team than Sandstream but the problem is rain teams rely way too much on Politoed to be effective while sand teams don't rely on sand that much. Now when comparing it to Hippowdon who I have heard some of you argue that it's better at winning the weather war. I found this to be not true. First of all Hippowdon struggles against Politoed and Ninetales more so than Tyranitar. Second while it may have amazing physical bulk it really can't deal much damage back and will have to keep on recovering totally ruining your momentum. Sand is really mainly to have an answer to other weather but as I said earlier Tyranitar is a huge threat first so it is why it is so easy to fit on any team because not only does your team gain an answer to other weather but it also gains a Pokemon that can tear holes at the same time which is why I believe Tyranitar is an S-rank Pokemon.

Not when Terrakion, Keldeo, Scizor, and Breloom exist he's not. And Sand is not half as good as Rain.

 

[Magcargo]

It's niche. I love Metagross, the manliest Pokémon to ever exist, but he's terribly niche. Steel isn't a very good STAB (it's more a testament to the rest of Scizor that he makes it work so damn well) and his poor speed undermines his offensive. He's an underrated Stealth Rocker, though.

Okay, for the longest time I thought he had 70/130/70 defenses, and I just checked and he has 80/130/90 defenses. That's pretty fucking good, moreso when backed up by Steel/Psychic, but Metagross is still a C-rank Pokémon at best

I guess your right. I often have success with metagross. However it's not good in the current meta.

Anyone else think Tyranitar should be S rank specially now with Genesect and Tornadus-T gone? I used to think it was a mediocre pokemon but after using him for hundreds of battles it's a really good pokemon I would almost go as far as to say he's broken. The set I'm talking about is Choice Band Tyranitar. With the sandstorm boosting his special defense he has little trouble coming in on battle unlike Terrakion and Politoed. Sure common weaknesses to fighting ground and steel suck but that's why you have 5 other Pokemon. Tyranitar is a huge threat first and weather inducer second. Tyranitar is one of the few pokemon that can OHKO Deoxys-D limiting it to only setting up Stealth Rock. Tyranitar can easily eliminates non-defensive Politoed, Jolteon, Blissey, Heatran, Celebi, Starmie, Stoutland (locked into Return) Jellicent, Gothitelle, Lati@s, Xatu, Espeon, Magnezone etc. There's probably a ton more that I missed but this is just from the top of my head. This is just one set though. Tyranitar can also fit on any team and reliably set up Stealth Rock. Now let's compare Tyranitar to Politoed who is currently S-rank. Sure Politoed may have Drizzle but can't hit that hard without Choice Specs and any team who doesn't have a water resist Pokemon is just asking for trouble honestly. When using Politoed you will find that it's very difficult to win the weather war against sand teams with either Hippo or Tyranitar. Tyranitar 2HKO's defensive Politoed with Crunch and relying on a Scald burn isn't a good idea to win the weather war. Saving Politoed until the end is also a bad idea as most of the battle would have been sand so you will have to switch in Politoed sooner or later to activate Drizzle. Now let's compare Drizzle to Sandstorm. Drizzle helps the team in a lot of ways such as weakening fire moves and powering up water moves. It also makes stuff like Thunder and Hurrican have 100% accuracy and helps abilities such as Rain Dish and Hydration. Now Sandstorm. It makes anything not Steel Rock or Ground take damage every turn also helps against Focus Sashes. Boosts special defense of Rock type Pokemon looking at you Tyranitar and Terrakion. Terrakion is already pretty bulky for a offensive Pokemon but a special defense boost means it's going to be hard to knock it out with a special move. Pokemon such as Sandslash and Stoutland get their speed doubled in sandstorm turning them into scary pokemon. I think that's pretty much it? so yeah Drizzle is more helpful to a team than Sandstream but the problem is rain teams rely way too much on Politoed to be effective while sand teams don't rely on sand that much. Now when comparing it to Hippowdon who I have heard some of you argue that it's better at winning the weather war. I found this to be not true. First of all Hippowdon struggles against Politoed and Ninetales more so than Tyranitar. Second while it may have amazing physical bulk it really can't deal much damage back and will have to keep on recovering totally ruining your momentum. Sand is really mainly to have an answer to other weather but as I said earlier Tyranitar is a huge threat first so it is why it is so easy to fit on any team because not only does your team gain an answer to other weather but it also gains a Pokemon that can tear holes at the same time which is why I believe Tyranitar is an S-rank Pokemon.

I thought at first Ttar should be S Rank. However tyranitar has a few problems. It is 4x weak to fighting and has a bunch of other common weakness's. 2 Ttar has a low 61 base speed. And 3, Tyranitar has no recovery.

 

[team grassfire]

I would like to nominate Sigilyph for D-Rank. I checked and this was brought up once before, but I think the set being suggested wasn't right for the ou metagame. The cosmic power set is extremely prone to critical hits as well as pokemon using lum berry or substitute alongside set up moves. It also failed to invest in sigilyph's very useful speed.

Sigilyph @ Flame Orb
Trait: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Spd / 192 Def
Timid Nature
- Psycho Shift
- Roost
- Air Slash
- Whirlwind

This set has a few crucial differences that make sigilyph more effective in ou. First of all is the ev spread. With the speed investment sigilyph can outrun up to adamant toxicroak, allowing it to burn many of ou's slower physical attackers before they can attack, such as mamoswine, toxicroak, and dragonite. The other crucial change in this set is in the last two moves. Air slash allows sigilyph to dispose of breloom (who otherwise isn't really countered by sigilyph due to how muhc bullet seed does-sigilyph is only a crit or two away with its cosmic power set) with ease, especially since sigilyph outspeeds even jolly breloom and 4x resists fighting. It also allows it to do a much better job against conkeldurr, who otherwise actually counters sigilyph thanks to guts. Celebi is also dealt with much better, which is helpful since stall teams often use perish song celebi as their cosmic power sigilyph counter The inclusion of an attacking move also allows sigilyph to deal with taunts much better and be more useful late game when something needs to be finished off.

The last move is the biggest change. Whirlwind allows sigilyph to do three things. Firstly, it stops him from becoming set up bait. Secondly, it can drag out physical attackers like scizor or dragonite, and force the opposing team to take a burn on something. Thirdly, it allows sigilyph to basically guarantee victory against opposing stall teams since their only counter will be heatran, who can just be continually forced out as sigilyph can heal lava plume damage on whatever other stall mon is dragged out. Overall, sigilyph's immunity to hazards, sand, hail, and status make it very useful to stall teams perhaps the best spreader of burns in the metagame, earning it a small niche in D-rank.

 

[Magcargo]

I would like to nominate Ninetales for B-Rank. Because of it's subpar defensive typing, it takes 25% damage from SR and loses weather wars against sand and rain because of a low 81 Special attack (even special Ttar hits harder). Unlike other weather inducers, ninetales is fairly useless outside of providing sun. Also, it will lose to pokemon like rotom-w and keldeo. Finally, 100 base speed isn't what it use to be which means Thundorus-T and Landorus-I narrowly outspeed it.

 

[Tressed]

I would like to nominate Ninetales for B-Rank. Because of it's subpar defensive typing, it takes 25% damage from SR and loses weather wars against sand and rain because of a low 81 Special attack (even special Ttar hits harder). Unlike other weather inducers, ninetales is fairly useless outside of providing sun. Also, it will lose to pokemon like rotom-w and keldeo. Finally, 100 base speed isn't what it use to be which means Thundorus-T and Landorus-I narrowly outspeed it.

It also gives out free Flash Fire boosts to everything, hands out free Agilities to specific Pokemon, and turns the other version of Work Up into Nasty Plot + Swords Dance in the same move.
Ninetales is shit. The boosts it gives out are not. Ninetales singlehandedly makes Venusaur, Lilligant, and Victreebell viable, makes Infernape useful, and completely flips the tables on Rain and Sand (until they switch in, obviously).
Ninetales is meant to be a supporter, and no other set is worth using, but it supports an entire playstyle by itself. Keep it at A-Rank.

 

[Old Jack]

Ninetales has a nifty answer to other weather inducers called sunnyday to maintain the sun with righ prediction and then throw solarbeam in their faces or just switch to another partner. Plus he usually runs wow to cripple physical sweepers. I'd not say Ninetales "can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame" but can be very annoying.
Drought is the only reason Ninetales is OU but this ability is so huge that it grants to pokemons like Venusaur to sweep whole unprepared teams and this why Ninetales deserves this A-rank.

 

[Magcargo]

However, ninetales loses almost every weather war, unless it runs sunny day. Drought is a great ability, but it isn't enough to make it A Rank. It will often switch out against politoed and ttar (bar sunny day variats) and can only switch in 5-4 times within a match. Like Hippopatas in LC, Ninetales requires much support. Also, sun is not as viable as it used to be because of the massive usage of rain. Also, Terrakion and keldeo can easily dispose of ninetales although terrakion needs to watch out for will o wisp.

 

[Adams]

Ninetales is only remotely viable for sun, but that's a major battle strategy. That alone keeps it S-Rank
EDIT: Derp Meant A-Rank

 

[Lavos]

Ninetales is only remotely viable for sun, but that's a major battle strategy. That alone keeps it S-Rank

why is ninetales suddenly s-rank when it's the least useful weather starter, even worse than abomasnow, and sun isn't even the best weather in the current metagame? hippowdon and tyranitar are still a-rank, and they're better pokemon than ninetales is, regardless of ability. politoed's only s-rank because it brings what is currently the best weather in bw2 to the table, plus it has a diverse movepool and can pull off several different viable sets. ninetales only has its specially defensive set to rely on, everything else it can do is really low quality. so basically, yeah sun's a good strategy, but it's not good enough to make ninetales s-rank, and neither is ninetales itself.

 

[PK Gaming]

Updated
==========================
Froslass added to C-tier
Roserade added to C-tier
Keldeo up from A-tier ===> S-tier
===========================

About Garchomp & Keldeo:

If you haven't noticed already, Keldeo is now S-tier, but Garchomp stayed in A-tier. I considered the arguments towards placing Chomp in S-tier, but ended decided against moving it up. It's important to keep the status-quo for S-tier (I can't just let any Pokemon in) and while Garchomp is really good, I just don't see it as an S-tier Pokemon. It's hard to pinpoint why Chomp isn't S-tier, but it doesn't have that absurd power that Keldeo, Landorus and Terrakion bring to the table.

About Conkeldurr:

Tornadus-T may be gone, but it's slow speed and susceptibility to weather teams still exist. More importantly, Conkeldurr just isn't being used by anyone good atm. I want to see better arguments before I can move it to B-tier.

 

[Schpoonman]

Iron Fist HAS been released (the exact Ability I've been waiting for months for), so if anyone wants to run the one true SubPuncher (I'm done with OU), please do and get back to here. I ran it without Iron Fist once upon a time and it put the hurt on a lot of stuff. He also has his Choice Band set which is just all kinds of stupid powerful.

 

[Lavos]

iron fist is actually really good for conkeldurr, especially focus punch, which (including iron fist and stab) hits an astounding base power of 269.98, which is stronger than almost any other non-lo, non-choice attack in the game. mach punch gets boosted to base power 71.99 after stab, drain punch goes up to 134.99, and ice punch hits 89.99 base power. all the moves you should be using on conkeldurr get a respectable power boost. the only drawback, of course, is that now there's no power boost from guts, meaning getting burnt is now a detriment instead of a benefit to you. if conkeldurr's special defense wasn't so mediocre, i'd consider arguing for it being a-rank, but it's just not there yet in my opinion with latios and keldeo still everywhere.

 

[TUO]

iron fist is actually really good for conkeldurr, especially focus punch, which (including iron fist and stab) hits an astounding base power of 269.98, which is stronger than almost any other non-lo, non-choice attack in the game. mach punch gets boosted to base power 71.99 after stab, drain punch goes up to 134.99, and ice punch hits 89.99 base power. all the moves you should be using on conkeldurr get a respectable power boost. the only drawback, of course, is that now there's no power boost from guts, meaning getting burnt is now a detriment instead of a benefit to you. if conkeldurr's special defense wasn't so mediocre, i'd consider arguing for it being a-rank, but it's just not there yet in my opinion with latios and keldeo still everywhere.

I know this isn't really valid but i just wanted to mention that Conkeldurr pretty much nets a free kill if you set up the sub. Setting up a sub is hard but LOOK AT DAT DOMMAGE.

252+ Atk Fighting Gem Iron Fist Conkeldurr Focus Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 307-362 (101.65 - 119.86%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Lavos]

i mean the fighting gem is a bit of an exaggeration because you're probably gonna want to run lefties on a subpunch set (otherwise you get worn down real easily) but the damage is definitely pretty real, after rocks a focus punch and a mach punch takes out latios every time, and you can just predict the switch and ice punch away if you aren't into the whole subpunch thing and want to run drain punch instead. in addition to that i think a 4 attacks conkeldurr set with iron fist isn't such a bad idea, since in this super fast paced metagame you often don't have time to set up and there's no reason to anyways if your opponent still has a latios or keldeo in the rain around. might as well have excellent coverage packing drain punch / mach punch / ice punch / payback, then you can even beat stuff most conks can't, like subdisable gengar and such. i dunno, i probably need to go test it out a bit before i claim it's a great set but it sounds pretty solid to me on paper.

 

[Magcargo]

Updated
==========================
Froslass added to C-tier
Roserade added to C-tier
Keldeo up from A-tier ===> S-tier
===========================

About Garchomp & Keldeo:

If you haven't noticed already, Keldeo is now S-tier, but Garchomp stayed in A-tier. I considered the arguments towards placing Chomp in S-tier, but ended decided against moving it up. It's important to keep the status-quo for S-tier (I can't just let any Pokemon in) and while Garchomp is really good, I just don't see it as an S-tier Pokemon. It's hard to pinpoint why Chomp isn't S-tier, but it doesn't have that absurd power that Keldeo, Landorus and Terrakion bring to the table.

About Conkeldurr:

Tornadus-T may be gone, but it's slow speed and susceptibility to weather teams still exist. More importantly, Conkeldurr just isn't being used by anyone good atm. I want to see better arguments before I can move it to B-tier.

What about scolipede and accelgor? Anyway, conkeldurr is a great pokemon in ou and Iron fist has only made it better. mach punch, the elemental punches, Hammer arm, and drain punch all now get a free attack boost. The sub punch set now has a huge boost in power as a STAB iron fist focus punch is gonna destroy most of the metagame. It also gets perfect coverage with Payback. In fact, its iron fist boosted focus punch is one of the most powerful moves in the game. Iron fist also makes it one of the best tyranitar counters. It's definetly B Rank at worst

 

[Shikyo]

I'm not an amazing player, but I just haven't seen Terrakion work like ever, not when I've played as him or when I've played against him. He gets revenge killed by priority all day no matter how many Rock Polish you have(Hi Scizor and Breloom), he has trouble switching in on many things, and stone edge still is really inaccurate and tends to miss at the worst times. He also needs both Rock Polish and Swords Dance to sweep because without Swords Dance he can't really oneshot stuff because his attack isn't that great, and without rock polish he's oneshot by every common scarfer, especially considering how close combat works.

I'm not saying he's bad by any means, but he feels quite overrated. I think that Keldeo is far scarier for example. Lati@s in my opinion are also significantly better as sweepers than Terrakion as well, since they have a much easier time setting up.

I don't know, maybe I'm bad, but it feels strange to me that I get an easy cleanup with Scarf Keldeo like every other game, and a random 1v6 sweep with Calm Mind Recover Substitute Latias every few games, but with Terrakion it's always getting revenge killed or never getting an opportunity to set up. It doesn't even feel like a threat in the opposing team either. His special defense in sand doesn't even help when the stuff that oneshots him is generally physical. I guess one could run it as a scarfer but I don't see the point when Keldeo exists.

I would say that Terrakion has the Wesker-syndrome from Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3: He's amazing against 99% of the pokemon, but some of the top tier pokemon like Scyther counter him really well. Personally I'd place Lati@s into S-tier if Terrakion can be there as well, I don't see them being worse.

 

[Adams]

why is ninetales suddenly s-rank when it's the least useful weather starter, even worse than abomasnow, and sun isn't even the best weather in the current metagame? hippowdon and tyranitar are still a-rank, and they're better pokemon than ninetales is, regardless of ability. politoed's only s-rank because it brings what is currently the best weather in bw2 to the table, plus it has a diverse movepool and can pull off several different viable sets. ninetales only has its specially defensive set to rely on, everything else it can do is really low quality. so basically, yeah sun's a good strategy, but it's not good enough to make ninetales s-rank, and neither is ninetales itself.

I meant to say A-Rank, not S-Rank. Those damn S and A keys together lol

 

[Magcargo]

I'm not an amazing player, but I just haven't seen Terrakion work like ever, not when I've played as him or when I've played against him. He gets revenge killed by priority all day no matter how many Rock Polish you have(Hi Scizor and Breloom), he has trouble switching in on many things, and stone edge still is really inaccurate and tends to miss at the worst times. He also needs both Rock Polish and Swords Dance to sweep because without Swords Dance he can't really oneshot stuff because his attack isn't that great, and without rock polish he's oneshot by every common scarfer, especially considering how close combat works.

I'm not saying he's bad by any means, but he feels quite overrated. I think that Keldeo is far scarier for example. Lati@s in my opinion are also significantly better as sweepers than Terrakion as well, since they have a much easier time setting up.

I don't know, maybe I'm bad, but it feels strange to me that I get an easy cleanup with Scarf Keldeo like every other game, and a random 1v6 sweep with Calm Mind Recover Substitute Latias every few games, but with Terrakion it's always getting revenge killed or never getting an opportunity to set up. It doesn't even feel like a threat in the opposing team either. His special defense in sand doesn't even help when the stuff that oneshots him is generally physical. I guess one could run it as a scarfer but I don't see the point when Keldeo exists.

I would say that Terrakion has the Wesker-syndrome from Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3: He's amazing against 99% of the pokemon, but some of the top tier pokemon like Scyther counter him really well. Personally I'd place Lati@s into S-tier if Terrakion can be there as well, I don't see them being worse.

Scyther is nonexistent in ou. Anyway, terrakion is S-rank because of powerful STAB moves, high speed and attack, great bulk, Nice typing and not being relient on weather. Keldeo can sweep teams only in the rain. In the sun, grass types walk all over it. Lati@s both have poor typing and often get walled by steels. Also, their stronger STAB has a major drawback, meaning they have to switch out and a weakness to pursuit makes that hard as well.

 

[Shurtugal]

Keldeo can sweep teams period. It does not need rain support in order to do so. See its Expert Belt and tell me what what can counter all of its sets! :) I might nom it for S Rank later when DeoD gets banned and rain becomes center focus. Anyway, Keldeo is not reliant on rain so please don't say that! LO Keldeo is a powerhouse, Band Tar + SubCM Keldeo is also not bad for setting up and getting powerful, and the EB RD set on DeoD teams are also amazing for sweeping rain / sand while also stopping sun teams, all of which DeoD hate.

I agree with everything else you said thou! :o

 

[False Sense]

I'd really like to question why Keldeo is S-Rank. I've touched on this before, but I just really don't think it's quite on par with the other S-Ranks. Let's do a little comparison:

Deoxys-D: Is virtually impossible to stop from getting hazards up, due to it's great bulk and speed. Very little can actually OHKO it. On top of this, it can beat just about all of it's checks by running the appropriate move, if it wants to.

Landorus: It's capable of two entirely different play styles in the form of it's physical, Sand Force sets and its special, Sheer Force sets. Both have an incredible amount of power behind them and have radically different counters. It can even use surprises like Gravity to make it's super powered STAB hit literally everything in the game.

Politoed: Drizzle. The power that it provides is incredible and currently dominates the metagame. On top of this, it naturally beats all other weather starters (bar Abomasnow) by virtue of it's typing, making it easy to keep it's own weather up. It also has some decent stats to work with, and can be very Bulky or hard hitting if you want it to. It also has a nice movepool, including some rare moves like Perish Song.

Terrakion: It has massive attack power coupled with two extremely powerful STABs that have fantastic coverage together. Very few pokemon can actually boast to resist both, most of which aren't usually seen in OU. It can make a great Revenge Killer, and vicious Wallbreaker, or a deadly sweeper thanks to Swords Dance and Rock Polish. It even can set up Stealth Rocks for the team, while still being incredibly threatening to the opposing team.

And now we come to Keldeo: This thing boasts a massive Special Attack stat coupled with STAB Hydro Pump, which hits like a truck, even more so in the omnipresent Rain. It also gets "mixed" coverage thanks to Secret Sword, and like Terrakion can be an effective Revenge Killer, Wall Breaker, or sweeper. Unfortunately, It has very limited coverage, and this is ultimately it's biggest problem. Outside of it's STABs, it's coverage consists of Hidden Power, and Icy Wind. Yep. That's about it. Icy Wind is hardly used anyway due to it being so weak, so that leaves Keldeo with usually just a Hidden Power (Usually Ghost or Ice), along with usually Calm Mind (for Sweeping), or Surf (for Choice sets). This extremely limited coverage is hard on it in OU, where so many pokemon resist or are flat out immune to it's STAB combination. These include Lati@s, Celebi, Dragonite (Well, ALL Dragon/Flying types), Gyarados, Jellicent (who is flat out IMMUNE to both Keldeo's STABs), Tentacruel, Starmie, Toxicroak, Venusaur (and again, ALL Grass/Poison types; this includes Amoonguss, Roserade, etc.) Slowbro/king, and so on. Mind you, these are just the pokemon that resist his STABs; the number of pokemon immune to those individual moves is much greater, which is critical for the Choice sets. So Keldeo has to rely on Hidden Power to get past these. But even then, it can only use one Hidden Power, and the list of counters is so large that one coverage move isn't enough to handle all of them. For example, HP Ice takes care of dangerous Dragons and can hurt Grass types (but keep in mind; without a boost of some kind, Hidden Power is weak), but leaves it walled by those bulky waters. HP Ghost can be used to bypass Psychic and Ghost types, a common type among the Bulky Waters it hates, but then it can't break past Dragons and Grass types.

In short, Keldeo no doubt is a great pokemon; Hydro Pump still hits ridiculously hard. But the fact that it has SO MANY COUNTERS, and has pokemon IMMUNE to BOTH it's STABs, I just don't think it's on par with the monsters already present in S-Rank. Feel free to dispute me, though.