I don't get it, why did McMeghan pursuit Politoed and give Terrakion a setup opportunity? Politoed's Rain was pretty much irrelevant and he was already weakened enough that a +2 Bullet Punch would always KO thanks to SR + Spikes. All he had to do was rack up some damage on Keldeo, lure out the Jirachi with Gengar and then set up a sweep. (Course, I'm a pretty bad player so I'm probably missing something obvious.)
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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 10 - Hazard
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I'm totally with you, this is seriously taking too much time. At least if there were many people playing the ladder... why not, but when you have to wait 3mins before each battle, it's really crazy. I think the deviation should be adapted to the number of users on the ladder, else this is going to be insane.Qualified this morning--while I already explained the reasoning behind my stance on Deo-D earlier, I'd like to touch on a couple other points before the round ends. First...
...I'd just like to emphasize how important these distinctions are. My conclusions differ from Myzozoa's, but he's spot-on here--people can't use piecemeal comparisons (scattered throughout this thread) to fully distinguish Deo-D from the other effective spikers in the tier. Voters need to justify this potential ban by explaining why Deo-D (and all of its broader effects) is more detrimental to the metagame than its alternatives are. A combination of attributes (outlined in my previous post) allows Deo-D to set up more entry hazards with more speed (as Myzozoa also noted) and consistency than anything else in the tier while preventing opponents from setting up against it. This combination of setup insurance and extensive, immediate, and reliable hazard support is what leads me to believe that Deo-D creates unhealthy amounts of field pressure in OU. Whichever way users end up voting, I just wanted to encourage other qualifiers to be mindful of the quoted material and flesh out their decisions in a similar manner before we start casting ballots.
I'd also like to briefly share some assorted observations from my suspect run. While every laddering experience continues to make me question why any of us play pokemon competitively, I do think this metagame was a bit richer than anything we've seen in other recent tests...definitely agree with whoever reflected earlier on how far we've come since BW2's origins. I still encountered plenty of typical sand, rain (more sand than rain, actually), and dragon spam, but I was impressed with the prevalence and potency of weatherless teams, especially considering they lacked access to Deo-D. I know this is purely anecdotal, but fighting handfuls of competent, successful weatherless teams over the course of this test makes the "rain and sun kill weatherless as a viable playstyle" line of reasoning discussed elsewhere really flimsy in my eyes.
also heist my magic forretress sends its condolences pokemon fucked me over afterwards if that's any consolation
also also petition to raise dev requirements to 65 for future tests who's with me???
For instance, everybody is at 2k+ on the ladder. I had a 7wins for 1 ratio last suspect and I barely had reqs.. I even had to play more than the devia to get my points.
Now, I have a half good ratio and I'm first on the ladder. I really believe the ladder is weird since it doesn't even matter if you have a good ratio because we're all above 2000 (which makes the games interesting though, because there is only "good" players).
So the games are meaningless in terms of points, and we have to wait too much time to play, making the ladder both easy (w/l means nothing) and hard (taking a lot of time).
This post isn't really about Deoxys-D, but if it could encourage people to play on the ladder...
About Deoxys-D, I still didn't see any good reason to ban it. On the suspect, the teams are really similar and there are clear team archetypes. I believe the Deoxys-D ban will change nothing, and make the most played team even stronger. I also believe there is a new stream "Because Deoxys-D is suspect, I should play it because it's overpowered etc." that is ruining many opinions in term of usage.
EDIT : I'm 65 devia with 90 games, I'm about to lose my mind to be honest.
EDIT² : 110 games, someone ? I was testing random crap all the way, I can tell you that DD Ttar isn't viable, sadly.
to be honest i didnt even realise the difference between the suspect and standard ou ladders was that deo-d was banned until someone pointed it out to me just now.. I agree with heist's sentimentsas for deoxys-d, i don't think this metagame is an improvement at all. most of the teams i ran into were cookie cutter landorus-t sand/rain defense which were really boring to play against. the only thing no deoxys-d does to improve diversity is to encourage the use of different spikers, which is not enough for me.
so yea, i'll definitely be voting do not ban
Sorry I'm quoting something from a bit ago, but I wanted to ask what exactly about Spikes and sr ferro + Land-t makes you want to use them. Sorry if this is confusing I am just wondering your what thought process behind choosing those two is.
I'm surprised it took so many battles for you (and other people). I only played about 60-65 battles max before getting my reqs. It might've been lower, since I'm estimating (I've battled since then).EDIT² : 110 games, someone ? I was testing random crap all the way, I can tell you that DD Ttar isn't viable, sadly.
Could be wrong about this, but it looks like PS! lowers your deviation more when you play people ranked above you. I actually parked myself at about 1950 for the majority of my laddering due to that: at 1950, most of the people you battle have an ACRE of 2000+, so you'll constantly be fighting people above you to make your deviation go down. But at the same time, you have about a 50 point buffer to make sure you never go below the required Glicko. "Strategic laddering" I call it. Of course, my strategy was based purely off of conjecture and hypothesizing, but since I made reqs in barely more than half as many battles as some people, I'm inclined to think that it works. :/
Lavos
Banned deucer.
my glicko2 is above 3500, i've played 31 games, and my deviation is still at 192. this ladder is broken. it takes me, on average, 40 minutes to find a battle. at this rate, it could take almost two weeks of constant laddering to get reqs. that's absurd. why is the ladder punishing me for having an obscenely high rank?
Pocket EDIT: Take this up with Zarel, imo - if you're REALLY waiting 40 min that's just absurd x_x You're better off starting over with a new alt imo
Pocket EDIT: Take this up with Zarel, imo - if you're REALLY waiting 40 min that's just absurd x_x You're better off starting over with a new alt imo
Ojama
Banned deucer.
im not voting deo-d uber but "laddering on PS" uber.
My opinion is that Deo-D should be banned since BW1 because it is as good as Deo-S in OU. Now I don't know if Deo-D is that broken in the current Metagame but it's still annoying to always bring something to not let it set up Stealth Rock + 2/3 layers of Spikes. There are obviously more broken things in BW2 (hello Landorus) than Deo-D but it still ruins the game, IMO. I'm not sure if I'm voting Uber but Deo-D stays Deo-D and it's broken/stupid or whatever you want, but Deo-D teams are the brainless teams ever.
It tooks me 82 battle to had the requirements. It was already long, and I understand that for those which had to do more battle it's just unbearable.
There are not enough people on the ladder, and we just wait and wait for a battle, but we fight the same people again and again. I've fight some people 5 or 6 times.
Yesterday, Remedy became crazy when we fought 3 times in 30 minutes.
Req :
I may do some battle just to help people like Lavos for this deviation. x)
There are not enough people on the ladder, and we just wait and wait for a battle, but we fight the same people again and again. I've fight some people 5 or 6 times.
Yesterday, Remedy became crazy when we fought 3 times in 30 minutes.
Req :
I may do some battle just to help people like Lavos for this deviation. x)
lol some interesting matches we had there, ojama
Anyways I don't see how theres any way I could do anything but abstain on deo-d. This whole test kind of confuses me actually. I don't understand the outcry about Deo-D occuring just now when it was alive and kicking for a while in BW, I might just not remember but I don't think I ever saw posts like Yee's that label Deoxys-D as a huge detriment to the metagame. More confusing is that Deoxys-D isn't even used by anyone on the suspect ladder. Not the top players, not the lower players, no one. There's no way I could glean anything about him to decide where he's broken or not because he's nowhere. Obviously it must not be that great if no one wants to use it, but I'm still on the fence because I remember Lavos making a post about it masking HP Fire, which reminded me of the Deo-S days when it always had the right move to kill your spinner or temporary "stop". I don't remember Deo-D being as bad as Deo-S [who was fucking horrible for the meta], but maybe players have been using it a lot better in the BW2 meta. Anyways this thing is nowhere, I feel like we should be voting on Landorus [a Pokemon which just 2hkos everything and imo is the most broken thing in OU] or Breloom or something. To me it seems like all the teams are the same and it all revolves around Latios, Tyranitar, Breloom and Keldeo, and its just a race to trap the latios and the player who does that wins the game. I was running TTar/Latios stall and that was most games for me. Also I don't understand PS's laddering system at all, on my first alt I won too many in a row and it skewed the rating, the same for one of my backup alts. For this one I just ended up tilting and losing a lot before getting my shit together and stringing together wins against higher-ranked players to get up to 2000. If anyone has any legitimate strategies on how to use this eccentric rating system properly so you don't have to fight upwards of 100 battles [my other alt had like 50 battles and hadn't even gone past 115 deviation], then please share. Also I feel your pain, Shurtugal and Tassa.
I am #39 Lady DogReq :
The decision is probably not making a huge impact on the metagame. Deo-d is just an annoying dude whose metagame would be fine without it, as in, it doesn't really have a solid stop. I mean, name one scenario where he doesn't get hazards up regardless of the set. That sounds dumb, but it's reasonable since Deo-d is too diverse. In addition, the player doesn't have to always lead with Deo-d, when he anticipates a likely lead disadvantage. Gimmicks are gimmicks though, players will have to live with it on such diverse metagame (yes, I know most teams are the same, but there are many unusual things to explore). That being said, both sides have good arguments, thus I haven't decided my vote.
I just followed the example of some other players and kept my Glicko2 just barely above 2000 so it didn't take too long to grind down my deviation. Just forfeited a few matches towards the end though.
As for Deoxys, there isn't much point in repeating what has been said countless times already. Basically the primary reason I am most likely going to vote to ban Deoxys is that - unlike any other Pokemon with a similar role - it can overcome or even abuse most of its alleged counters.
Speaking of silly laddering, did anybody else feel like the RNG was cranked up to the "Super HAXOR" notch? Like every game either my oppenent or I were landing a crit, or some other form of hax, like every three moves.
edit: LOL, burningman1. I only ask cause I noticed there were some others feeling the same in the technical support thread so wasn't sure if that was just coincidence/selective perception/whatevs for all of us or were we on to something lol. Assuming that link means the former so....
edit: LOL, burningman1. I only ask cause I noticed there were some others feeling the same in the technical support thread so wasn't sure if that was just coincidence/selective perception/whatevs for all of us or were we on to something lol. Assuming that link means the former so....
Deluks917
Ride on Shooting Star
Why is everyone's rating so high anyway?
There are much more people with high ratings on suspect vs OU:
ACRE 2000: 45 vs 22
ACRE 2100: 14 vs 1
ACRE 2150: 9 vs 0
MAX ACRE: 2300 vs 2110
this is like the two ladders are using different rating systems.
In the beginning of the suspect test there was a difference but nothing crazy like this.
There are much more people with high ratings on suspect vs OU:
ACRE 2000: 45 vs 22
ACRE 2100: 14 vs 1
ACRE 2150: 9 vs 0
MAX ACRE: 2300 vs 2110
this is like the two ladders are using different rating systems.
In the beginning of the suspect test there was a difference but nothing crazy like this.
BurningMan
fueled by beer
i think it's because there are only a few players who all aim for a high rating so once you get a bad rating (through loosing in the first few battles) you just start a new account, so this means there are only high ranked players so you can't lose points against all the 1800- guys like on the normal PS! ladder. I think the fact that there are a lot of high deviation accounts also somehow adds up to this, but thats only a guess and it might have a different reason
I think that BurningMan have the right explanation.
I remember that on my second account (this which I posted the rating), I won my first 5-6 match, and 2 were against good rated players. Someone at something like 2000 and someone near 1900. So my ACRE jumped to nearly 2500 in only 5 or 6 match...
I made a new account this evening, playing a crappy hard stall (always in suspect ladder). I fought only people with a poor rating (bar one player which beat me), and at conclusion I am at 1570 after 6 matchs.
I remember that on my second account (this which I posted the rating), I won my first 5-6 match, and 2 were against good rated players. Someone at something like 2000 and someone near 1900. So my ACRE jumped to nearly 2500 in only 5 or 6 match...
I made a new account this evening, playing a crappy hard stall (always in suspect ladder). I fought only people with a poor rating (bar one player which beat me), and at conclusion I am at 1570 after 6 matchs.
after my first ~10 matches i had +3000, after that it was pretty impossible to fall under 2000, i have my reqs with 52-46 and the first matches were probably the key, so yeah the laddersystem is weird and there are a lot more players who deserved a +2000 rating :|
Alongside Heist, Myzozoa, and co, I'll be voting OU for Deo-D. I've been using Deo-D ever since DeoS got banned, but it's nowhere near as good. The Speed and offensive nerfs have blunted Deo-D's versatility. It's only notorious for setting up hazards, while DeoS was known as a hazard setter / Dual Screener / end-game cleaner.
From my play experience with DeoD, I find DeoD Offense quite inconsistent - it's success is heavily affected by the opposing team. If the opponent packs a Magic Bouncer, I am pretty much down 5-6. Let's not mention Skill Swap here, cuz it's not worth the precious moveslot, unless you want a suboptimal DeoD most of the time.
The biggest shortcoming of all is that teams with Rapid Spinners (esp Tentacruel) can delay hazards from going up early game to the detriment of my team. Ferrothorn, a common Spiker in OU, can actually keep its Spikes up much better than Deoxys-D against teams with Rapid Spinners. You can mention Psycho Boost for Tentacruel and Donphan, Thunder for Starmie, and HP Fire for Forretress. However these conditionally useful moves come with a price of reduced efficiency at its primary role of setting up hazards / keeping off hazards.
Then there are miscellaneous Pokemon that gave my DeoD trouble. Trick Scarf, for instance, effectively neuters DeoxysD and render it set-up bait. Common OU threats like Gengar, Volcarona, Tyranitar, and Scizor limited me to 1 SR, if even that if they're combined with a Rapid Spinner / Magic Bouncer.
Also unlike Deoxys-S there are simply more devastating set-up opportunities against DeoD. One time a SubSD Terrakion swept my team, because I used Magic Coat turn 1 expecting Lead Terrakion, only for Terrakion to set up a Sub. Next turn it used SD while DeoD Taunted, and it punched an irreparable hole to my team. I got SR up and 1 kill, while the opponent got 2 kills. In that particular game, the cost of getting up Rocks was not worth the loss. Heck Azelf / Aerodactyl would have done a better job!
You can argue that I could have used Taunt @ Mental Herb instead, but that wont prevent faster SR lead like Mew, Garchomp, or Terrakion from setting up SR. So Mental Herb Deoxys-D would have to sacrifice the ability to prevent faster hazard setters from laying entry hazards, while Magic Coat users are threatened to be swept by QD Volcarona, Double Booster Thundurus, SubSD Terrakion, etc. Again, the lack of Speed hinders Deoxys-D from even performing one of the roles that Deoxys-S performed with ease. Deoxys-D was easy mode at the beginning of post DeoS, but nowadays it could be a lot more hassle than it's worth. Unlike Deoxys-S, I find Deoxys-D too inconsistent at its job to be banished from OU.
From my play experience with DeoD, I find DeoD Offense quite inconsistent - it's success is heavily affected by the opposing team. If the opponent packs a Magic Bouncer, I am pretty much down 5-6. Let's not mention Skill Swap here, cuz it's not worth the precious moveslot, unless you want a suboptimal DeoD most of the time.
The biggest shortcoming of all is that teams with Rapid Spinners (esp Tentacruel) can delay hazards from going up early game to the detriment of my team. Ferrothorn, a common Spiker in OU, can actually keep its Spikes up much better than Deoxys-D against teams with Rapid Spinners. You can mention Psycho Boost for Tentacruel and Donphan, Thunder for Starmie, and HP Fire for Forretress. However these conditionally useful moves come with a price of reduced efficiency at its primary role of setting up hazards / keeping off hazards.
Then there are miscellaneous Pokemon that gave my DeoD trouble. Trick Scarf, for instance, effectively neuters DeoxysD and render it set-up bait. Common OU threats like Gengar, Volcarona, Tyranitar, and Scizor limited me to 1 SR, if even that if they're combined with a Rapid Spinner / Magic Bouncer.
Also unlike Deoxys-S there are simply more devastating set-up opportunities against DeoD. One time a SubSD Terrakion swept my team, because I used Magic Coat turn 1 expecting Lead Terrakion, only for Terrakion to set up a Sub. Next turn it used SD while DeoD Taunted, and it punched an irreparable hole to my team. I got SR up and 1 kill, while the opponent got 2 kills. In that particular game, the cost of getting up Rocks was not worth the loss. Heck Azelf / Aerodactyl would have done a better job!
You can argue that I could have used Taunt @ Mental Herb instead, but that wont prevent faster SR lead like Mew, Garchomp, or Terrakion from setting up SR. So Mental Herb Deoxys-D would have to sacrifice the ability to prevent faster hazard setters from laying entry hazards, while Magic Coat users are threatened to be swept by QD Volcarona, Double Booster Thundurus, SubSD Terrakion, etc. Again, the lack of Speed hinders Deoxys-D from even performing one of the roles that Deoxys-S performed with ease. Deoxys-D was easy mode at the beginning of post DeoS, but nowadays it could be a lot more hassle than it's worth. Unlike Deoxys-S, I find Deoxys-D too inconsistent at its job to be banished from OU.
This is a good time for me to point out where I've been noticing I differ from a lot of you when it comes to deciding what is Uber. Even if the suspect is outclassed some of the time or really inconsistent, it does little to nothing to make me think it needs to kept OU. What matters to me is that it's directly lowering the importance of what we normally consider "skill" and replaces it with guessing games like the one you told us against Terrakion. You don't even get an educated guess what set the Deo-D is running a lot of the time, and when you do it's because you know the player has certain preferences. This leads to guessing games against all of it's attempted stops and means that almost as often as not, it'll be able to get SR + Spikes + no opposing hazards done which I find comfortably over the edge. Guessing games consistently having the potential to throw the game in the first turn or two, even having a relevant chance when you overprepare, is something I would never want.
Am I the only one that finds it to be a problem that multiple qualified voters are confused about not seeing Deoxys on the Suspect ladder? It almost makes me want to support the return of paragraphs.
lol some interesting matches we had there, ojama
Anyways I don't see how theres any way I could do anything but abstain on deo-d. This whole test kind of confuses me actually. I don't understand the outcry about Deo-D occuring just now when it was alive and kicking for a while in BW, I might just not remember but I don't think I ever saw posts like Yee's that label Deoxys-D as a huge detriment to the metagame. More confusing is that Deoxys-D isn't even used by anyone on the suspect ladder. Not the top players, not the lower players, no one. There's no way I could glean anything about him to decide where he's broken or not because he's nowhere. Obviously it must not be that great if no one wants to use it, but I'm still on the fence because I remember Lavos making a post about it masking HP Fire, which reminded me of the Deo-S days when it always had the right move to kill your spinner or temporary "stop". I don't remember Deo-D being as bad as Deo-S [who was fucking horrible for the meta], but maybe players have been using it a lot better in the BW2 meta. Anyways this thing is nowhere, I feel like we should be voting on Landorus [a Pokemon which just 2hkos everything and imo is the most broken thing in OU] or Breloom or something. To me it seems like all the teams are the same and it all revolves around Latios, Tyranitar, Breloom and Keldeo, and its just a race to trap the latios and the player who does that wins the game. I was running TTar/Latios stall and that was most games for me. Also I don't understand PS's laddering system at all, on my first alt I won too many in a row and it skewed the rating, the same for one of my backup alts. For this one I just ended up tilting and losing a lot before getting my shit together and stringing together wins against higher-ranked players to get up to 2000. If anyone has any legitimate strategies on how to use this eccentric rating system properly so you don't have to fight upwards of 100 battles [my other alt had like 50 battles and hadn't even gone past 115 deviation], then please share. Also I feel your pain, Shurtugal and Tassa.
I don't really have any new kind of argument regarding Deo-D, I still feel it is broken and the metagame is better without it. Now when you're teambuilding you can focus more on Rain without having to worry about getting destroyed by early free hazards. IMO a Deo-D ban would be the most significant/helpful vote BW2 has seen so far, it is actually improving the metagame's quality immediately.
also rewer's avatar is adorable
I don't like these multiple sets arguments when it comes to banning things. I don't care if Deo-D can only play the role of a hazards setter, he's so good at it (from my point of view of course) that he deserves to be banned. The possibility of playing another role is irrelevant.
Honestly, you can say anything is reliant on the opposing team and thus inconsistent. If every team packed a defensive Gliscor (which just about everyone did) we could've said Excadrill was reliant on the opposing team and is thus inconsistent. What matters is if these answers to Deo-D means that the other team is handicapping themselves to deal with it. (which Magic Bounce, although useful, is pretty niche due to the distribution to subpar Pokemon)
Red Card Deoxys-D can ensure both SR + Spikes against faster spinners, namely StarmieL It also gives Deoxys the opportunity to setup SR early game against slower spinners while leaving Deoxys healthy enough (since he only had to suffer a Rapid Spin) to come back and lay the Spikes latter. Gothitelle, the gayest wallbreaker in existence, can easily trap and kill Tentacruel thus removing the opponent's precious spinner and answer to Deoxys-D. (mind you, it misses out on the OHKO for healthy Tenta) Forretress can actually be PP stalled out of Rapid Spin thanks to Pressure by alternating between SR and Spikes. (Recover lets Deoxys do a similar trick to Tentacruel)
TrickScarf is an inefficient way to deal with Deoxys-D. You either lock him into SR while giving him an item that allow him to easily come back in a few turns to spam multiple layers of Spikes or you lock him into Spikes and he gets 2-3 layers. (followed by an SR shortly after) You also have to successfully lead against Deoxys-D with your TrickScarfer and a wary opponent might foresee this or just play it safe with their Volt-Turner. In any case, this strategy involves you throwing your revenge killer out the window which you will sorely miss against any HO team.
Red Card messes with Gengar and co. while offensive pressure and/or a ghost type makes sure those hazards stay up.
Predicting the Terrakion set can be annoying, however, team preview can go a long way in helping this. Although, it is true that there can be multiple potential SR setters so it is difficult to say. In any case, Red Card would have again helped you bypass this threat as a +2 Terrakion fails to OHKO (unless Rock Gem/LO) allowing you to phaze out the threat and setup SR on the same turn. (and most likely Spikes as well depending on what gets dragged out) QD Volcarona is the only threat Deoxys-D fears as far as setup sweeping is concerned. (Although, it isn't exactly difficult to cut off an early game sweep. As long as you don't let it get to +4, even LO HP Rock Volcarona loses to offensive Dragonite.)
I don't like comparing Deo-D to Deo-S. Again, it's irrelevant how Defense compares to Speed as all that matters is how Defense compares to the current Metagame it is in. Anyways, I feel you are wrong to say that Deoxys-Defense is inconsistent for the reasons I posted above. (all with the standard Magic Coat + Taunt + Red Card set)
You can't bash his post for being "set based" before delving into one of your own around the very same concept. "You COULD have used red card." "You COULD have used mental herb and taunt (which, btw is the standard)." But that makes no difference when it isn't what is being used. As pocket stated, running mental herb means he can't stop opposing sr leads, etc. each set has serious particular flaws , thus it is extremely inconsistant. It's not a matter of "deo doesn't need to run everything at once because it has the POSIBILITY of getting passed its counters," rather, it's the fact that if you don't have the right move, you aren't getting spikes or sr or preventing hazards, etc and deoxys, as well as the team that so relies on him, is effectively nuetered.
And I can turn your argument around by saying that if you lack the correct method to deal with Deoxys-D (ie having a taunt lead and running into Mental Herb) then its getting up 2-3 layers or something. You are also discounting the fact that even if all else fails, Deoxys-D prolly got up SR in the face of your counter, and then the HO team proceeds to get going. If there was like, a foolproof way of knowing what fucking set / item its running, I wouldn't mind Deoxys-D so much, but what frustrates me to no end is losing to skill swap sets, missing out on a 2KO co its running leftovers for some reason, running into Rocky Helmet etc etc. I havn't really encountered a pokemon that does this "coinflip" thing quite like Deoxys-D, and it really hampers my teambuilding process when I feel like I need to overload on checks for it to account for the different items it runs (and then have to guess what check to lead with). Such a headache :(
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