Reflecting on BW and Looking Ahead to Gen VI - SEE POST #508

[sidakarya]

Was weather offence dominant in VGC Doubles though? I would guess that it was, seeing as how potent it's shown to be (especially rain, even without swift swim), although I haven't any experience in VGC to tell.

It was mentioned, Selfdestruct and Explosion were nerfed because it was OP in doubles, so if everyone was carrying weather in the tournaments, I would suppose it would get downgraded as well. (Though probably only then, as much as I'm hoping for a weather nerf, since GF doesn't focus on singles anymore)

 

[G-Von]

[*]Keep speculating to a minimum, this means refrain from discussing huge mechanic changes or changes to already existing concepts.

Talking about taking critical hits out of the game is a huge mechanic change so it shouldn't be talked about. In gen 1, crits were calculated based on the speed of a pokemon, but was fixed in gen 2 (possibly yellow version fixed it but I am not totally sure. Seriously nothing has been changed regarding crits since then so there is no way anything is going to be done about them now. There were moves introduced LAST GEN where a crit was landed every single time so what makes you people think they will totally be taken out now?

 

[Lilligant562]

Like the idea previously mentioned of a special version of Intimidate. It would seriously help in this ridiculously offensive metagame. I also want to see more types of priority. A special fire type priority or an electric priority would be really cool. More entry hazards would also be cool; I REALLY like the idea of ice type Stealth Rock (say goodbye to dragon types lol). Also, sandstorm gives rock types a special defense boost, why doesn't hail give ice types a defense boost? That would help make it viable (and push Kyurem(-B) over the edge, IMO).

I like the idea above for a Gravity auto-inducer.

I 2nd the Electric priority certainly for those overplayed Water types with boosted AquaJets. Fire, I'm not too sure though, Fire Blast on fast fires is powerful as it is.

I would love Giga-drain to go up to 80BP, and more great ice types following on from Kyruem. They need a boost. More powerful grass/ice pokes in general would do the crazy water-based metagame wonders.

Special ice priority maybe too OP?

 

[TaBuu]

LOL, I'm reading some real interesting ideas here and laughing at some while enjoying others [:

About the Ice Type Stealth Rock: No. Please. Just No.
SR was introduced into the game so that Flying and Levitators wouldn't get it so easy all the time. Upon switching in, they too, would receive damage if the hazards weren't spun away. The Rock Typing was probably chosen as it went along the lines of "ground" and entry hazards.
But anyway, having another elemental entry hazard? No thank you. Things like Dragonite, Latios, Garchomp, Landorus, Thundurus just might see a huge drop in usage. Also if more entry hazards are added we need more efficient spinners as well.

 

[Eleman]

First, critical hits, although annoying, are still a major game mechanic and cannot be changed. Second OU only means that the pokemon has much more usage or is just powerful enough to be there. Good stats aren't the only thing in this and what really matters is the niche that pokemon holds in the metagame. Third, I do like the idea of special intimidate since that will really put a stop to the plethora of special attackers that are over centralizing the metagame. I also think more priority is good since scizor showed us that it is very effective.

 

[HackerKing]

But that's the thing, isn't it. Crits are a part of the game that Game Freak will probably never ever change. They created items and abilities around it. However, one can hope.

If I were able to impose on restriction on GF, I would remove crits entirely except on low base power moves (like Frost breath, which has a 100% CH chance). Why? Imagine two situations:

1) Your opponent has a +4 Atk +4 Spd Haxorus spamming Outrage. Through smart plays, they managed to expose a flaw in your team and set up by removing all its counters.

2) Your opponent has a +4 Def +4 SpDef Sgyph spamming Stored Power. Through smart plays, they managed to expose a flaw in your team and set up by removing all its counters.

Who deserves the win in situation 1? The Haxorus player. Situation 2 therefore should be given to the Sgyph player. Critical Hits however rob a deserving player of a win. If you think Stockpile sweepers will be too overpowered, there's already Clear Smog, Perish Song, Haze, Roar, Whirlwind, Dragon Tail, Red Card, Heart Swap, Unaware, Trick, and 100% crit moves.

Only allowing crits on certain pre-chosen moves will add more diversity to the game and give more wins to the deserving player.

 

[Hemp Man]

You could go back to RBY days, where critical hits also ignore offensive gains.

 

[Hugin]

LOL, I'm reading some real interesting ideas here and laughing at some while enjoying others [:

About the Ice Type Stealth Rock: No. Please. Just No.
SR was introduced into the game so that Flying and Levitators wouldn't get it so easy all the time. Upon switching in, they too, would receive damage if the hazards weren't spun away. The Rock Typing was probably chosen as it went along the lines of "ground" and entry hazards.
But anyway, having another elemental entry hazard? No thank you. Things like Dragonite, Latios, Garchomp, Landorus, Thundurus just might see a huge drop in usage. Also if more entry hazards are added we need more efficient spinners as well.

That's sort of the point, though. Get those OP dragons knocked down a peg. And yeah we need more/better spinners, too, so that hazards can be a real fight from both sides, but I don't think that "more spinners" and "more hazards" are exclusive positions to take.

 

[Lork]

crits are great. a variable you can't control. it adds an element of surprise and requires you to think on your feet.

 

[Schpoonman]

It also removes the game from the control of the player which goes against Smogon as a competitive website.

 

[Lork]

It also removes the game from the control of the player which goes against Smogon as a competitive website.

perhaps you lose control, but not to a grand extent. i would argue, and i'd say this is quite convincing, that the ability to respond to a misnomer is just as important in deploying a strategy to demonstrate your abilities. it is, for example, why sport is so exciting.

 

[Schpoonman]

Warning: I'm using American football analogies in this post, apologies to those of you who do not understand. I'm not familiar enough with soccer to make my point.

A random number generator doesn't decide whether or not a receiver catches a pass.

These occurrences are referred to as "hax" because they are NOT fair play. Because we wish to keep the game as close to its roots as possible, we leave in some of the random RPG elements that GameFreak designed. Some of them make sense in the face of a competitive and balanced environment. When I run Hydro Pump over Surf, I'm acknowledging that I am going to lose some games because I chose power over perfect reliability, just as I will win games due to Hydro Pump's power, but that's a calculated risk. I made the conscious decision, and because of that it's okay; the same as risking 4th-and-1 for the first down instead of punting to fight another day.

There IS no calculated risk with critical hits. 6.25% of the time I will lose a valuable Pokémon or even the game with no action on either player's side. Say you had nothing but Choice Scarf Keldeo at 87%, locked into Secret Sword against my remaining team of SpDef Jirachi at 58%, Choice Specs Politoed at 42%, and a fully-healthy SD Lucario. Jirachi is carrying Thunder, which, if it does not paralyze, will damage you enough for Lucario to clean up with ExtremeSpeed, and with Close Combat should it paralyze.

You get a critical hit against Jirachi, with no outside interference, purely on the RNG, and then proceed to sweep Politoed and Lucario, winning you the game. I had you dead-to-rights and by all means I should have won, but it was taken out of our hands and given to you. I can't think of a less competitive mechanic.

 

[Gary]

I seriously can't believe that people are wanting to remove critical hits from the meta game. Seriously? Crits have been around since the beginning of Pokemon, and in my opinion they keep defensive boosters from being impossible to take down. A perfect example is Jirachi under the rain. All it takes is one Calm Mind boost, and not even Choice Specs Heatran can handle Jirachi. If you're not packing a Ground type move, you're fucked. Hax are an important part of the game that keeps players from just freely setting up moves such as Calm Mind and Cosmic Power without having to worry about any repercussions. Also, a variety of abilities would be useless too, such as Sniper, Super Luck, and Shell Armor. Super Luck makes Absol an even more dangerous threat in RU, while Shell Armor gives defensive Pokemon the edge over crit fishers.

But anyways, I've about had it with people getting super pissed off at me when I get any sort of crit at any time of the battle. Seriously people, IT'S PART OF THE GAME! It forces players to keep on their toes. Let's say you calculate the damage output on your opponents move, and you figure out that Ice Beam will leave your Dragonite with only 2% health. If that were the case, players could just take huge advantage of damage calculators and not have to worry about a possible critical hit. I know I'm kind of veering off a bit, but do you get what I'm saying? It makes the match more unpredictable, and forces the player to always prepare for the worst. I think that players who cry about critical hits are a bunch of whiners. They are part of the game, keep defensive boosters at bay, and keeps players on their toes.

 

[Lady Alex]

crits are great. a variable you can't control. it adds an element of surprise and requires you to think on your feet.

An element of surprise that can instantly turn a winning match into a lost match through no skill of your opponent's. "requires you to think on your feet." lol. I seriously doubt that crits are going anywhere any time soon, unfortunately.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

I seriously can't believe that people are wanting to remove critical hits from the meta game. Seriously? Crits have been around since the beginning of Pokemon, and in my opinion they keep defensive boosters from being impossible to take down. A perfect example is Jirachi under the rain. All it takes is one Calm Mind boost, and not even Choice Specs Heatran can handle Jirachi. If you're not packing a Ground type move, you're fucked. Hax are an important part of the game that keeps players from just freely setting up moves such as Calm Mind and Cosmic Power without having to worry about any repercussions. Also, a variety of abilities would be useless too, such as Sniper, Super Luck, and Shell Armor. Super Luck makes Absol an even more dangerous threat in RU, while Shell Armor gives defensive Pokemon the edge over crit fishers.

I can deal with a lot of people arguments for keeping crits in the game, but this is ridiculous. I could easily change "Calm Mind Jirachi" to "Salamence with dragon dance". After one boost, not even Jolteon with Hidden Power Ice can handle salamence. You better be packing an ice shard, or you're fucked. Do teams have a 6% chance to move first every turn, outspeeding somebody's offensive boosts? Critical hits are more unfair to defensive boosters than offensive boosters, and defense in general. Is there a 6% chance to take half damage and ignore offensive boosts?

I can understand the idea of critical hits as a part of the game, but it really annoys me that they ignore defensive boosts. If you let a defensive pokemon set up, the consequences should be exactly the same as if you let an offensive pokemon set up.

 

[alexwolf]

That would be pointless at any defensive boost above +2, essentially. You are far less likely to land the crit at that point than after multiple attempts against a +6 opponent. A crit at +2 would be like a regular hit, but a crit at +6 would do nothing significant.

Why do you need a crit to win against a defensive booster anyway? It's not like they are difficult to prepare for as the most common defensive boosters in OU, such as CM Latias, CM Jirachi, and BU Conkeldurr (rare but the most common BU user), leave one of their defensive sides wide open for your attackers to exploit and have a lot of other weaknesses (phazing, status, Perish Song).

Crits don't need to get past defensive boosts, which only makes defensive play even harder as it discourages purely passive boosting (Stockpile and Cosmic Power) which is already hardly viable. However, crits are good for preventing walls from pp stalling or stalling out offensive Pokemon with passive damage without any risk. For example, with SR off the field CB Terrakion can never 2HKO physically defensive Hippo with CC, while Hippo can easily stall out Terra of CC's 8 pp. In the same maner, Agility Thund-T couldn't hope to get past SpD Hippo without a crit, surely losing from passive damage (LO and sand). So without crits at all the game could be a bit unfair to offense, but i am not so sure.

But GF will never remove the effect where CHs get past defensive boosts and you know why? Because this would make playing the real Pokemon games either extremely easy or extremely hard. If you get your hands on a Pokemon with Calm Mind or Bulk Up you own everything while healing whenever necessary from status with Full heal, while if you face an opponent with such a Pokemon and you don't have the means to deal with it, then it becomes a fucking nightmare.

So the only realistic change that could be made to keep the in-game play the same while making competitive play better, would be to include an option to turn off the ability to get past defensive boosts on crits, and this option would be available only after you beat the E4 and also would be automatically on in every frontier.

Yeah i know this is not gonna happen but whatever, i had to say it...

 

[Codraroll]

It just stuck me while playing in-game today: Crits stop those incredibly annoying Recover spam sessions as well, where the opponent just Recovers back the damage you inflict and then some, while you die of status/weather/boredom. Combined with Ingrain/Aqua Ring, or Leftovers, it can really make some in-game fights drag on. Incredibly satisfying to finally mow down the sucker, presumably with a lucky hit right between the eyes.

In short, not only defensive boosting, but also recovery spam, is stopped by Critical Hits. They make the battles a little faster and more unpredictable. Lucky crits are like a godsend, whereas you might remember unlucky crits for years.

They DO have the side-effect of making some competitive strategies less viable, but as many have put forward, a great ingredient in the stew we call "skill" is the ability to respond to unexpected situations. They add another factor of excitement to the matches; faint hope for the losing side, tension for the guy with the upper hand. Either way, they are part of the game, a mechanic GameFreak obviously embraces, so they are not likely to go anywhere any time soon.

 

[Sound]

They DO have the side-effect of making some competitive strategies less viable, but as many have put forward, a great ingredient in the stew we call "skill" is the ability to respond to unexpected situations. They add another factor of excitement to the matches; faint hope for the losing side, tension for the guy with the upper hand. Either way, they are part of the game, a mechanic GameFreak obviously embraces, so they are not likely to go anywhere any time soon.

While I'm not pro for getting rid of critical hits (simply because, as you said, its unlikely), you do have to admit that 9 out of 10 times its impossible to recover from critical hits. Maybe SE critted my Mismagius, and my Sharpedo was taken out because my opponent's Scrafty didn't DD on the obvious protect, leaving their Scarfcross to outspeed and OHKO the rest of my team with CC. The only way I could have recovered was if I was carrying an extra Heracross check (Before anyone nitpicks that Mismagius is only a shaky check, I also have Cobalion to better take Megahorns and SEs if I predict them correctly). And, I'm sure I don't need to say that I can't carry two counters to the same pokemon to account for hax because there's only six slots (Thinking back, that may have been a bad example because, while not counters, I still had 3 checks, but it goes to show you that A. Heracross is strong B. Hax stinks and C. I'm paranoid). There's not enough overlap that I can afford such.

When people say "I lost that game to hax," it means "I lost that game because my check/counter to their S-rank threat was taken by a crit."

Also, in the same vien of defensive boosting, there are plenty of ways to stop Recover spamming. Taunt, a strong Banded/Speced move, Toxic, etc.

 

[Gary]

Let's just end this stupid crit discussion, it's going no where. Since we all know that this most likely isn't going away in Gen 6, there's no point in arguing about it. Besides, everyone in this thread seems to be against crits so it seems futile to even try to defend them. All the supporters like me just get viciously attacked. I still feel that nothings wrong with crits, and people just need to except the fact that they're part of the game just like other hax. Deal with it.

So what do you guys feel about new evolution's we are most likely going to get this next Gen? What do you think GF is going to bless with a new Evo that maybe could be in OU? I think Farfetch'd is an obvious much anticipated contender, however since his stats are so mediocre his Evolution could possibly be just a tad better, which would still blow. If he was OU viable, I could see him being a physically based fast sweeper with Swords Dance as his main method of setting up. That would be decent, however I feel Staraptor would mostly out class it since it has access to Close Combat and Reckless Brave Bird, however it ironically kind of sucks in OU. Would all depend on its move pool.

 

[Schpoonman]

I'm still waiting for some appropriate typing changes, now that you've brought up Staraptor.

Some Pokémon who sorely need a leg-up that a simple typing change would bring: Gyarados, Yanmega, and Staraptor. Change Gyarados' and Yanmega's Flying-type to Dragon- and Staraptor's Normal-type to Fighting. It would fit these Pokémon fairly well and would greatly mitigate some weaknesses/give some serious benefits.

Kingdra wouldn't be completely outclassed due to higher base speed, higher special attack, and Swift Swim. Yanmega could do some serious damage with Tinted Lens, the typing combination would be unique (and badass) and it wouldn't be so horribly crippled by Stealth Rock. The same to Staraptor, only now its Choice sets are infinitely better, only taking neutral damage from Stealth Rock and now having STAB Close Combat to combat Steels while still having that insanely powerful Reckless Brave Bird for wall-breaking. I'm sure there's other Pokémon that are held back by poorly-thought-out typing , but those are the only three that come to mind right now.

 

[Codraroll]

Thing is, until we know what the OU environment will look like, it's impossible to tell whether or not something will be OU. We can speculate on movesets that would do well in the current metagame, but we have no way of telling whether or not it would work well when October has arrived (or more likely, January, when things have settled). Even if all stats and the entire movepool of a new 'mon was released, we have no way to know if it will really be that good when all new stuff is implemented.
Perhaps we get to know about, say, a Qwilfish evolution that would flatten any- and everything in the current OU, and which would get the boot to Ubers within days of being introduced to the BW2 metagame. Everybody playtests it and decides that "This is awesome!!!" and "Can't wait to use it in-game!" and such, but when October comes we find out that the Pokémon is completely screwed over and/or countered by new Pokémon, moves or mechanics.

I've used the analogy of Beedrill earlier, and I'll do it again: Imagine taking a Beedrill fresh from BW2, and send it back to the GSC era. It has moves like Drill Run, Toxic Spikes, Brick Break, X-Scissor and other stuff that was completely unheard of at the time. Even its ability would be unique (seeing as nobody else would have abilities at the time). Beedrill would be a staple on any GSC team.
Yet Beedrill has always been Beedrill: terribad. Without lucky matchups/dumb opponents, it will be squashed like a bug in most battles. From a GSC point of view, its moves are totally awesome, metagame-changing, ban-worthy powerful. But here we are, and Beedrill is in NU, and even there it seldom sees action. Because even though as amazing those moves are, everything around it has been treated just as well or (in most cases) even better.

A more recent example: Techician Breloom. Sure to change the metagame, huh? People were posting those awesome damage calculations, theorizing that Scizor would finally meet its match. Well, so much new stuff was released at the same time that Techiloom kinda vanished in the crowd. Yes, he's awesome, and he does exactly what he was supposed to do. But he doesn't stand out as the champ we expected, just because the conditions of the metagame changed.

Oh, rambling now. Anyway, what defines an OU 'mon isn't something you can predict before the paradigm shift happens. We can wish for "This or that to be OU-worthy", but we don't even know what "OU-worthy" even means at this point. Perhaps Chip Away will become the next Outrage or Close Combat, because everything gets Defense boosts from the inner circles of hell. Perhaps it will be a stallfest because GameFreak imposes a hard-coded limit of turns in a match. Perhaps we won't even be able to assemble a proper metagame, because everything gets so overpowered or random that it's impossible to play competitively. We don't know. But it will be interesting, that's for sure.

 

[Eleman]

Yeah the smogon tiers are all based off of comparison and constantly changes. We don't exactly know what gen VI will bring but I can guarantee you that the older pokemon will constantly be overshadowed by the newer.

 

[HackerKing]

I've used the analogy of Beedrill earlier, and I'll do it again: Imagine taking a Beedrill fresh from BW2, and send it back to the GSC era. It has moves like Drill Run, Toxic Spikes, Brick Break, X-Scissor and other stuff that was completely unheard of at the time. Even its ability would be unique (seeing as nobody else would have abilities at the time). Beedrill would be a staple on any GSC team.
Yet Beedrill has always been Beedrill: terribad.

Interesting. This is one of the reasons that I find speculating fun though. 50% of the speculations turn out to be crap (pre-HGSS, people thought that Gravity Starmie would be broken). And no one even looked at Volcarona...

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't consider new options and how good they'd be.

Personally, we NEED some overdue evolutions. I think a Zangoose evolution would actually be viable.
Toxic Boost, Swords Dance, Toxic Orb, and STAB Facade, Close Combat and Night Slash would blow holes in opponents once the fighting types were gone. The main problem with Zangoose now is its mediocre speed. Add en evolution with base 100 Speed and you have a monster at your hands.

 

[Ghostbone]

Personally, we NEED some overdue evolutions. I think a Zangoose evolution would actually be viable.
Toxic Boost, Swords Dance, Toxic Orb, and STAB Facade, Close Combat and Night Slash would blow holes in opponents once the fighting types were gone. The main problem with Zangoose now is its mediocre speed. Add en evolution with base 100 Speed and you have a monster at your hands.

Zangoose is already the most powerful physical sweeper (well, 2nd to ursaring) in terms of pure power. He already has decent base speed, with priority, 100 base speed wouldn't actually benefit him too much. He'd still outspeed all the walls and resort to priority to bypass revenge killers...except normal isn't the greatest typing for your priority.

His problem has always been frailty, with a lack of good resistances/defenses to set up, as well as coverage issues (do you want to OHKO steel or rock types and be hard walled by ghost types, or OHKO the ghost types but only 2HKO steel types with +2 facade)

Make him normal/ghost or something and his typing would probably end up decent enough to set up.

 

[TaBuu]

Alrighty, now I found this floating around Facebook recently and I'm kinda leaning towards it legitimacy.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BEZvpY8CYAAnCFi.jpg:large
Honestly some of these new Pokemon are very interesting. Having a Fighting Flying Type(calling dibs, as that Pokemon being my favorite ;]) will honestly just be so awesome, while a Grass Dragon will kinda be a downer. Also a Dragon Fighting(calling dibs again ;]) was brought up in the list which really perked my interest.

From a more competitive aspect, looking at all the typings, I still kind of feel Drizzle just might hold its dominance into Gen VI Ladies and Gentlemen, if this keeps up, I welcome you to the age of Rain.....
Now we don't know what new twists GameFreak might introduce but let's hope that this new Generation really balances out our metagame. 'Cause we need it.

But honestly, even if this list ends up being a phony, hopefully these new and interesting typings can really become a reality. I mean. Who doesn't want a Flying Fighting Type? Pretty much perfect coverage. Imagine good stats, with a Boosting move and Drain Punch/Close Combat, Brave Bird/Aerial Ace(I kid haha)and like maybe Fire Punch or Roost. And also Dragon Fighting is really going to bring some interesting competition into the Dragon World. Guys, I think Dragonite just might see itself lose its Top Position once again.... poor guy