BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[Halcyon.]

Wait, I thought kyurem b is a purely physical attacker. I understand the idea behind a sub roost set but don't quite get the reason not to abuse that monstrous attack stat.

Because, honestly, Kyu-B's physical movepool sucks. Plus, 120 base SAtk is nothing to scoff at. Why not take advantage of his decent SAtk in conjunction with his amazing Atk stat, which, even with no investment, is still higher than Salamences fully invested Atk.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Now that Deoxys-D is banned, I've found the Choice Band Tyranitar to be very useful with a specially defensive EV spread. The extra power is not very often noticeable; the power loss against some bulky Water-types is a pain, though. But Tyranitar is still sufficiently powerful to dent opposing weather starters. Also, Choice Band Tyranitar with an EV spread of 252 HP / 36 Atk / 220 SDef (with an Adamant nature) is a monster when paired with Choice Specs Keldeo. Due to the extra Special Defense, CBTar can check/counter Keldeo's checks/counters much more effectively. For example, CBTar can check two excellent checks to Keldeo: Gengar and Alakazam. Due to the increased Special Defense, CBTar can actually survive a Focus Blast from both, and OHKO back with Crunch (it is a pain when the latter is carrying a Focus Sash, though). Tyranitar can also avoid the 2HKO from Specs Latios' Surf all time if Stealth Rock is not present, and can still have a big chance to avoiding the 2HKO. Oh, and SpD CBTar will only be 2HKOed by Sheer Force Landorus' Earth Power! This is an impressive feat. Landorus can OHKO with Focus Blast, but using Focus Blast is rarely worth because it has a chance to miss. All that said, Tyranitar can still effectively OHKO the Lati twins and Jellicent with Pursuit if they stay in. The two forme a very effective combo. Remove Keldeo's checks and couters with Tyranitar, then simply have fun spamming Hydro Pump!

 

[TaBuu]

^I like it :]^​

Choice Banded Tyranitar is such a threat and honestly is dangerous enoug to really give Politoed a run for its Drizzle haha.
Tyranitar and Keldeo both have such amazing synergy as they can eliminate various threats that threaten one another. I'm actually really itching to try the two out.
Tyranitar is such a cool Pokemon anyways and Keldeo is just so powerful looking
However I noticed that as they are both Choiced, some issues may arise ._.
Now I've never run this duo before, I don't know why but DarkFallenAngel can throw in his 2 cents.
I think Expert Belted Keldeo could also be another alternative and maybe more preferable (?)
Hydreigon might come out as an issue as non-Rain Boosted Specs Hydro Pump will be dealing 48.77 - 57.66%. Hydreigon can walk in and proceed to Draco Meteor the poor pony. Also Tyranitar is looking at a solid OHKO from Superpower.
Not saying that this core is bad 'cause it really isn't haha
Just trying to point out something that needs to be handled in team support

But really. Props to DarkFallenAngel [:

 

[Vemane]

Take a look at its physical movepool and it makes more sense. Kyurem-B has Dragon STAB, Fusion Bolt, and... That's really it. On CB sets, Kyu-B resorts to Rock Smash for coverage. Its much more useful to use a mixed or bulky set and take advantage of the nice defenses and mixed offenses, rather than go full physical and be let down by the slowish speed and lacking coverage.

No, it doesn't resort to rock smash for coverage.

It uses outrage, dragon claw, fusion bolt, and ice beam

Detailed Result:
252 Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/0 Def Heatran: 48.45% - 57.25%
2-3 hits to KO

For reasons like this

 

[Tressed]

No, it doesn't resort to rock smash for coverage.

It uses outrage, dragon claw, fusion bolt, and ice beam

Detailed Result:
252 Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/0 Def Heatran: 48.45% - 57.25%
2-3 hits to KO

For reasons like this

Where did I get Rock Smash from, then? So confused.
But regardless, the fact that Kyu-B uses Ice Beam on its Banded set just goes to show how few good options Kyu-B has, physically.

 

[Lucario_Guy]

Where did I get Rock Smash from, then? So confused.

Guts Flareon. No joke.

Flareon@Toxic Orb
Guts
Adamant
252 Atk / 4 Sp.Def / 252 Spe
-Flame Charge
-Fire Fang / Return
-Bite
-Rock Smash

But regardless, the fact that Kyu-B uses Ice Beam on its Banded set just goes to show how few good options Kyu-B has, physically.

That's more evident of its lack of a physical Ice move than anything, really. Not that it's hurting terribly for one; most of Ice Beam's targets are 4x weak and/or OHKO'd anyway.

 

[DarkBlazeR]

Dragon Tail is a decent move option on the CB set. Yes, it may seem weird to use it with a choice item, but if you predict a switch it can do some serious damage to a team with some hazards down. This way you can chip away at Kyurem-B's checks so that they'll be helpless against it later on in the match, whilst preserving your offensive momentum. Ice Beam isn't really that useful since everything it is meant for (i.e. Gliscor, Landorus-T, Hippowdon etc) are all cleanly 2HKOd by CB Outrage. Since it's relatively weak, it's practically begging for all kinds of things to come in and set up.

 

[HardCore]

Celebi @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 154 SDef / 24 Spd / 78 Def
Calm Nature
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Leaf Storm
- Recover
- Nasty Plot

So I have been using this Celebi set as my main switch to water type moves and Pokemon. From what I see the opponent anticipating Nasty Plot after you reveal the move will allow you to outplay their most obvious switch to a counter or U-turn Pokemon. Celebi's a bulky tank that can function as a nice pivot or a wall breaker. The power from LeafStorm does about the same damage as grass knot to Tyranitar, so I went with that so I would have Rotom-W coverage! I know some may say having LeafStorm is counterintuitive, but Tyranitar and Scizor are both common switches to Celebi that can pursuit or kill, so why not have the power to just KO them in sand or rain! The set could take some of the defensive evs and put them into special attack to ensure some KOs, but the team I use it on is pretty solid. Feedback would be nice I'm consider using the same evs with U-turn, Giga Drain, Recover, and Perish Song. This set is just for my team though, but yeah NP Celebi is really good!

 

[Eleman]

Why would you use Leaf Storm with Nasty Plot on that Celebi set? That really takes away from the special attack boost that Nasty plot gives you. Even if you say it counters Ttar and Scizor, HP fire hits Scizor and different grass move could take out Ttar. I suggest changing that to Giga Drain for more recovery and switch Recover for Psychic which hits all the dragons except for Hydreigon that would otherwise completely wall this set. Although if you don't intend to fully sweep you could use Leaf Storm for more damage output.

 

[SlimMan]

Why would you use Leaf Storm with Nasty Plot on that Celebi set? That really takes away from the special attack boost that Nasty plot gives you. Even if you say it counters Ttar and Scizor, HP fire hits Scizor and different grass move could take out Ttar. I suggest changing that to Giga Drain for more recovery and switch Recover for Psychic which hits all the dragons except for Hydreigon that would otherwise completely wall this set. Although if you don't intend to fully sweep you could use Leaf Storm for more damage output.

Leaf Storm is the only Grass-type move Celebi has which will OHKO Tyranitar after a Nasty Plot. That's why he uses it.

@Vemane: Your calc says 2-3HKO, but I think we can assume Stealth Rock and safely call it a guaranteed 2HKO.

 

[TaBuu]

@Lucario Guy
Well. Let's just look at Flareon first. It's Pure-Fire. Going to be very honest, but Pure Fire, is just very sad...Weak to SR makes it a downer already.
It does have 130 Attack and with Flame Charge I see where you're going. But even with Guts Adamant, Bite and Rock are close to in-valid in OU.
Anyone can tank those and in a Drizzle infested Metagame, Flareon has little room to shine.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​

I do want to bring up this one Pokemon, that I think people need to go back to for pure destruction and diversity:

Hello there ;]​

It has the tools to by-pass it's weaknesses. Although it is not possible to bypass all problems.
With Tailwind and/or Paralysis support from either it's own set or teammates, Hydreigon won't be intimidated by that mean Terrakion or Latios anymore.
With Substitute up, Hydreigon can really f*ck you up [excuse my language]. Techniloom? Gone. Terrakion? Gone. Latios? Gone.
Also we have to keep in mind his 8:4 resistance and immunities/weakness ratio.
He also has some very solid bulk to work with. Having roost helps a lot too :]
Hydreigon can also go mixed and honestly take Stall Teams for a trip to hell and back.
Finally, we can't forget how well he can fare against certain weathers, more Drought than anything but Hydreigon is pretty handy for non-weather teams.
On weather teams, he can shine just as well too.
Hydreigon is just a beast, packing the power and coverage to 2HKO or OHKO literally anything in the OU metagame.
Use him. ;]

 

[EspeonX]

Hydreigon is a beast, that I can agree with. Specs Hydreigon is quite damn powerful, but LO Mixed Hydreigon is better for just taking down stuff like Chansey.

Anyways, I've been using Landorus a fair bit recently. Is it's Sheer Force set the better set to use now? Scarf Landorus with Sand Force is still viable, but Special sets are used a fair bit.

 

[TaBuu]

"but LO Mixed Hydreigon is better for just taking down stuff like Chansey." -EspeonX

Ummm...can someone say Inaccurate?
Hahaha, gonna be honest, it should look more like this:

"but LO Mixed Hydreigon is better for threatening the entire OU Metagame and honestly can rip through so many teams." -EspeonX

;]

 

[Schpoonman]

Actually... Physically defensive Chansey walls all Hydreigon except Choice Band. Without crazy investment in attack Superpower just doesn't do enough damage. Even if you were behind a Sub, she could Softboiled stall until you were doing dick for damage and then Seismic Toss.

 

[TaBuu]

*Quick Calculation*
"4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 309-367 (43.89 - 52.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock"

You were saying?

 

[haunter]

-1 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def) : 29,26% - 34,66%. With the Atk drop after the first hit you no longer 2hko Chansey, so he's right.

 

[TaBuu]

Oh. Awkward ._.
Sorry LordOfBays

 

[Lavos]

besides i don't really think damage calcs on chansey of all things are relevant in the current metagame. we need to be looking at the actual nature of the bw2 metagame in order to properly analyze what's good and what isn't. right now ou is centered around an offensive mindset, with pokemon such as scizor, keldeo, latios, terrakion, and garchomp heading up last month's usage stats. look at those five pokemon. four of them outspeed and ohko hydreigon flat-out, and the other one still does a hefty chunk with choice band bullet punch. i realize these five pokemon aren't entirely indicative of the metagame, but you get my point. right now, hydreigon's too slow and is weak to far too many common attacking types to be effective. base 98 speed frankly doesn't cut it in today's metagame. more than half of the pokemon currently in the top 20 of the usage stats outspeed and ohko hydreigon, or tank a hit and ohko back. that's pretty bad considering what hydreigon's trying to accomplish. fact is, the thing can't fulfill its supposed role as an effective sweeper or wallbreaker because it's too slow and too frail to keep up with the offensive nature of the bw2 ou tier.

 

[ssbbm]

well i mean chansey has already taken 1 sr damage or switches in on sr + spikes or there is sr + sandstorm up or residual damage in general then hydreigon should beat it if it predicts the switch. that's not that hard to accomplish seeing as the mejority of teams really can't switch in anything to hydreigon besides chansey (there is really no counter to lo hydreigon i think).

also i agree that hydreigon is slow and easily beaten by offensive teams but by god balanced / defensive teams are fucked to death by the specs set

 

[Lavos]

well i mean chansey has already taken 1 sr damage or switches in on sr + spikes or there is sr + sandstorm up or residual damage in general then hydreigon should beat it if it predicts the switch. that's not that hard to accomplish seeing as the mejority of teams really can't switch in anything to hydreigon besides chansey (there is really no counter to lo hydreigon i think).

i don't think predicting the switch and using superpower is the hard part, it's getting up that assumed two layers of hazards plus sandstorm that's really difficult. i mean you only really see chansey on rain stall, and rain stall's absolutely centered on keeping its own weather up plus keeping opposing hazards off while laying hazards of its own, so assuming that we're magically going to have hazards down and sand up to create ideal conditions for a hydreigon sweep is kind of silly.

btw what's the generally accepted life orb hyd set? i keep hearing a lot about dragon pulse, surf, earth power, earthquake, fire blast, superpower, u-turn...what are the four most common moves

 

[RabidChipmunk]

i don't think predicting the switch and using superpower is the hard part, it's getting up that assumed two layers of hazards plus sandstorm that's really difficult. i mean you only really see chansey on rain stall, and rain stall's absolutely centered on keeping its own weather up plus keeping opposing hazards off while laying hazards of its own, so assuming that we're magically going to have hazards down and sand up to create ideal conditions for a hydreigon sweep is kind of silly.

btw what's the generally accepted life orb hyd set? i keep hearing a lot about dragon pulse, surf, earth power, earthquake, fire blast, superpower, u-turn...what are the four most common moves

| Moves
| Draco Meteor 75.801%
| Fire Blast 64.704%
| Dark Pulse 59.052%
| Superpower 29.449%

There ya go. I have no idea why Dark Pulse is so popular... guess some people just really hate Jellicent. Personally, my preferred Hydreigon moveset is Draco Meteor / Fire Blast (or Surf on a rain team, but usually Fire Blast) / Superpower / Earthquake, which covers a lot of threats, but I haven't actually taken the time to see what it doesn't. The Smogon recommended set is all those same moves, but with Roost slashed before Earthquake.

 

[mcdanger]

| Moves
| Draco Meteor 75.801%
| Fire Blast 64.704%
| Dark Pulse 59.052%
| Superpower 29.449%

There ya go. I have no idea why Dark Pulse is so popular... guess some people just really hate Jellicent. Personally, my preferred Hydreigon moveset is Draco Meteor / Fire Blast (or Surf on a rain team, but usually Fire Blast) / Superpower / Earthquake, which covers a lot of threats, but I haven't actually taken the time to see what it doesn't. The Smogon recommended set is all those same moves, but with Roost slashed before Earthquake.

Superpower, fire blast and draco meteor give it full coverage, earthquake is to hit heatran, sp def jirachi, and chople tyrannitar harder. Ya i dont get dark pulse as it just hits gengar, celebi, and former threat deoxys def harder, all which cant stomach draco meteor, or fire blast in celebis case. When i run it i prefer roost or sub in the last spot for more longevity and staying power.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Dark Pulse has some merits. First, Celebi can actually tank Fire Blasts if it's raining. However, nothing prevents Celebi from being smashed by Dark Pulse on any weather. Second, it also hits Jellicent (which with a specially defensive EV spread, has a lot of potential to avoid the 2HKO from Draco Meteor) and the rare Reuniclus. Dark Pulse also has two other merits. It hits bulky Water-types without needing to resort to Draco Meteor, so if you want to keep your Draco Meteor to something more dangerous, or to weaken the opponent until it can be smashed by Draco Meteor, Dark Pulse can do the job. Also, STAB Dark Pulse has the same power as an non-STAB Fire Blast, but Dark Pulse has perfect accuracy and more PP, and thus, Dark Pulse lessens the need to use Fire Blast in situations where you want to keep Draco Meteor for use later on battle.

 

[Cygnis]

Superpower, fire blast and draco meteor give it full coverage, earthquake is to hit heatran, sp def jirachi, and chople tyrannitar harder. Ya i dont get dark pulse as it just hits gengar, celebi, and former threat deoxys def harder, all which cant stomach draco meteor, or fire blast in celebis case. When i run it i prefer roost or sub in the last spot for more longevity and staying power.

For the LO, set, I just run Roost over D-Pulse. Healing off LO damage is a lot more beneficial than EQ, it even needs it more in BW2 beacause of how offensive the metagame is. Roost / U-Turn / Dark Pulse / Surf / EQ can all go in the third slot in my opinion

 

[Meru]

Dark Pulse has some merits. First, Celebi can actually tank Fire Blasts if it's raining. However, nothing prevents Celebi from being smashed by Dark Pulse on any weather. Second, it also hits Jellicent (which with a specially defensive EV spread, has a lot of potential to avoid the 2HKO from Draco Meteor) and the rare Reuniclus. Dark Pulse also has two other merits. It hits bulky Water-types without needing to resort to Draco Meteor, so if you want to keep your Draco Meteor to something more dangerous, or to weaken the opponent until it can be smashed by Draco Meteor, Dark Pulse can do the job. Also, STAB Dark Pulse has the same power as an non-STAB Fire Blast, but Dark Pulse has perfect accuracy and more PP, and thus, Dark Pulse lessens the need to use Fire Blast in situations where you want to keep Draco Meteor for use later on battle.

On my team, Dark Pulse also manages to annoy SpDef Hippowdon because Hydreigon can't get past him with two LO Draco Meteors, but a Dark Pulse flinch in tandem with a Draco Meteor will eliminate him.

But really, the main reason is for Jellicent and Celebitch.