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NU Stats - February 2013
- Thread starter watashi
- Start date
I'm not going to deny that Scolipede is incredibly versatile, to do so would be silly. But you can't run a set of Megahorn / Aqua Tail / Swords Dance / Spikes / Toxic Spikes / Rock Slide / Earthquake / Baton Pass / Superpower @ Leftovers + Life Orb + Choice Band. If you run SD + Aqua Tail to get rid of Golurk, then you forgo Spikes + Toxic Spikes. If you run the two spikes, you forgo. If you run one of the spikes + SD + Aqua Tail, then you lose out on coverage + the other spikes. Sure, it can run a fuckton of sets. But no individual set of Scolipede's will be broken (note: this is an opinion. also note: i havent been wrong yet about tiering in nu).
Funny enough, my current team I've been screwing around with has both Pinsir and Liepard, which is pretty cool because they beat up teams with that core.
Well, Tennisace wrote this before about Scolipede:
The following question that immidiately arised to me when I saw this, and failed to address earlier properly: Though Scolipede will shake up the tier, what would it do to these cores? Would they appear more often, or not?
If I look to what Tennisace wrote in this post, he thinks the amount of these cores would be reduced because another counter would drop, while Punchshroom expected the opposite to happen as these cores would profit from Scolipede as he wrote in his post.
I am in Punchshroom's camp; I also see the amount of these cores rising, even moreso because Scolipede counters Liepard and Mold Breaker variants of Pinsir well enough. Scolipede's drop in NU would be more benificial to those cores than it would be to those opposing these cores.
Tennisace, it's worth mentioning that parts of the Deo-D argument was VERY similar to what you just said, and Deo-D ended up being banned in OU, despite it was less versatile as Scolipede will be in NU as Scolipede can run more and better offensive sets as Deo-D. Deo-D could also not run all the moves and sets it wanted to at the same time because of four moveslots, but because a surefire check was impossible to have, it was banned. It was not even top-10 in terms of usage, yet deemed not healthy for the OU metagame.
You simply can't compare Deo-D with Scolipede as both work in a different way. Yes Scolipede is an more offensive hazard layer than Deo-D and can dent the opposing team with it's nice coverage and great speed. When it comes to Deo-D it simply doesn't need to be offensive at all, it is there to set up as many hazards as it can, maby paralyze something and with its great bulk and versatility it is an much more dangerous hazard setter than Scolipede is, those two just can't be compared to eachother in any way, even tho Scolipede can hit much harder it just doesn't have the niche of Deo-D. Ill stop here as this actually doesn't have anything with NU to do at all comparing those two to eachother.
brostime is right, there's no reason to compare scolipede to deoxys-d or crustle or smeargle or other pokemon designed to set up hazards quickly because it doesn't have the bulk of the former two or spore. it also can only set up spikes, meaning you have to waste another team slot on a stealth rock user that doesn't cut down the momentum that scolipede brings with its fast spikes.
That's entirely true, though it is Scolipede's versatility that makes me worry. The Spikes lead does not have SR, but you still can't prevent it from getting one or two layers of Spikes up unless you lead with fast Taunt or a fast OHKO (provided Scolipede doesn't have a Sash).
Don't understand me wrong, for Scolipede alone can be prepared. It is Scolipede combined with those other powerful threats which already run rampant I'm worried about.
However, I do not favour a quickban. I don't see what good would come out of that. We are already theorymonning about Scolipede's drop, and we won't learn anything useful if we ban it already before it even drops.
Don't understand me wrong, for Scolipede alone can be prepared. It is Scolipede combined with those other powerful threats which already run rampant I'm worried about.
However, I do not favour a quickban. I don't see what good would come out of that. We are already theorymonning about Scolipede's drop, and we won't learn anything useful if we ban it already before it even drops.
The only thing we know will drop FOR SURE will be muchlax who imo (like Roselia) never should have been RU and are absolutely abysmal.
Yeah, I guess I shouldn't be making those kind of comparisons with other hazard setters. It's just that if Deoxys-D proved too much for OU, what of NU that has to deal with Pede's efficiency and versatility? Scolipede does it job(s) extremely well, and has Samurott syndrome in terms of dealing with it in that you could bring in the wrong countermeasure. Trying to wall it? That won't stop it from laying down hazards in your face. Trying to stop the hazards? Prepare to be skewered if you hope to do so. Trying to check/revenge kill it? Good luck without relying on a Scarfer or something notoriously frail AND SR weak(they can't switch in as a result), as Pede's typing and defense makes it more resilient to priority than most. It is fortunate that our Spinners have an easier time against Pede though. I never said anything about banning it before it drops, I'm just discussing how much it could shake up NU. But at this point I could be considered rambling, so we'll just have to wait for the hugeass bug to actually drop to NU and see. (The next tier shifts do happen at April, right?)
On another note about the possibility of Pede in NU, I'm not sold on the idea of running Toxic Spikes along with Spikes on Pede, as the former is not as strong in this NU meta as it could have been. Other than Scolipede itself, the other main reason for its ineffectiveness is that Skuntank is goddamn everywhere, with its Poison typing being the biggest reason I'd consider it over trusty Liepard. I mean, good players like FLCL and Brostime run it. It is such a clutch pokemon in almost any situation, its only truly unfavorable matchup is against bulky things that EQ it to death. Aside from that, it is the best (only, but still very good) Psychic-trapper in the tier, able to check things by dealing heaps of damage with Sucker Punch and Aftermath, and Taunt screws up bulky things that can't EQ it to death. For the sake of variety, I hope Mandibuzz gets down here soon, because let's face it: if Musharna has Signal Beam, Cacturne and Shiftry are abysmal choices for handling Musharna, and Murkrow only has a chance to come out on top if running CM itself.
On another note about the possibility of Pede in NU, I'm not sold on the idea of running Toxic Spikes along with Spikes on Pede, as the former is not as strong in this NU meta as it could have been. Other than Scolipede itself, the other main reason for its ineffectiveness is that Skuntank is goddamn everywhere, with its Poison typing being the biggest reason I'd consider it over trusty Liepard. I mean, good players like FLCL and Brostime run it. It is such a clutch pokemon in almost any situation, its only truly unfavorable matchup is against bulky things that EQ it to death. Aside from that, it is the best (only, but still very good) Psychic-trapper in the tier, able to check things by dealing heaps of damage with Sucker Punch and Aftermath, and Taunt screws up bulky things that can't EQ it to death. For the sake of variety, I hope Mandibuzz gets down here soon, because let's face it: if Musharna has Signal Beam, Cacturne and Shiftry are abysmal choices for handling Musharna, and Murkrow only has a chance to come out on top if running CM itself.
Munchlax might actually be useful in NU. If klinklang is added, we will finally have a good steel type in the tier (metang and probopass aren't bad but aren't that good). Klinklang can run an offensive set with shift gear or a defensive set with T-wave/Toxic and volt switch. Grass types will become less useful in the tier after klinklang drops. Rhydon will also shake up the metagame, forming a potential core with klinklang and eelektross.
Well, Choice Scarf Zweilous is an excellent pokemon in this metagame right now. So there's another dark type, though its not a psychic trapper. Forcing switches with hazard support is just as good as trapping in my book.
But yeah, I agree with Punchshroom; I'm very interested to see how Mandibuzz can shape up NU. Musharna can literally do nothing against Mandibuzz, the only problem there is mandibuzz is hit super-effectively when roosting. That damage is 20-23% unboosted, so pitiful damage. Gardevoir and haunter cannot 2hko with rocks unless carrying life orb or specs, though mandibuzz really cannot do much to either. By the time mandibuzz kills off either of them, it will be in easy revenge killing range. Mandibuzz is also ohko'd by stone edge, and most of the time with CC from Choice banded Sawk after stealth rocks, which is ridiculous.
Mandibuzz really cannot do much to musharna, as even after taunting, brave bird will not do much, toxic will just hurt you more, so whirlwind is your only option. This is the most interesting factor for mandibuzz, its ability to whirlwind pokes, especially with the potential increase in hazards next month. Even though this poke is worn down by stealth rocks, it will not be worn down with status thanks to a fast taunt, and has a reliable recovery move. Knock off will be an interesting option, as it is one of the few pokes that could viably place it as a move slot.
Of course, alot of the potential dropdowns are utterly destroyed between Cinccino and Emboar. Thanks RU :)
But yeah, I agree with Punchshroom; I'm very interested to see how Mandibuzz can shape up NU. Musharna can literally do nothing against Mandibuzz, the only problem there is mandibuzz is hit super-effectively when roosting. That damage is 20-23% unboosted, so pitiful damage. Gardevoir and haunter cannot 2hko with rocks unless carrying life orb or specs, though mandibuzz really cannot do much to either. By the time mandibuzz kills off either of them, it will be in easy revenge killing range. Mandibuzz is also ohko'd by stone edge, and most of the time with CC from Choice banded Sawk after stealth rocks, which is ridiculous.
Mandibuzz really cannot do much to musharna, as even after taunting, brave bird will not do much, toxic will just hurt you more, so whirlwind is your only option. This is the most interesting factor for mandibuzz, its ability to whirlwind pokes, especially with the potential increase in hazards next month. Even though this poke is worn down by stealth rocks, it will not be worn down with status thanks to a fast taunt, and has a reliable recovery move. Knock off will be an interesting option, as it is one of the few pokes that could viably place it as a move slot.
Of course, alot of the potential dropdowns are utterly destroyed between Cinccino and Emboar. Thanks RU :)
You do realize that it gets Punishment and Payback right? Punishment allows it to hit a Musharna who has already boosted for some good damage, while Payback deals decent damage to anything else.
I'm rather interested in Primeape. A Fighting-type with U-Turn to beat Psychics AND Punishment to beat CM Musharna and CM Gardevoir that already have boosts under their belts? Yes please.
Klinklang is just so good, imagine a Pokemon that can set up with ease in the face of the majority of NU's walls such as Alomomola and Lickilicky. Of course, you need Substitute to beat Lickilicky due to the occasional Dragon Tail, but Sub is already standard on Klinklang anyways.
Hariyama will be a scary Pokemon because of Guts, but he doesn't really attract me because of his piss-poor Defenses (apart from that monstrous HP). He is very slow, but really powerful.
Rhydon will be a nice Pokemon to have in this tier, because it hits so hard with it's dual STABs and has a lot of Physical bulk.
Scolipede has already been talked about, and I agree with almost everything that people said. He's going to be great to use in HO, getting up Spikes real fast. On the SD and other attacking sets, he can use Quick Feet to outspeed literally everything (Damn there should be a paralysis orb :O) when statused, making him a feared attacker. The Spikes set should be the one that will be the most frequently used, though. Scolipede will shake up the meta in a nice way, let's hope he doesn't get banned.
Munchlax is bad. It's like a mini-Lickilicky with more HP.
Mesprit is a great Pokemon, although another Psychic type in the tier might be too much to handle for one Skunk. If he drops I'm definitely trying Tri-Psychic for a second time.
I'm rather interested in Primeape. A Fighting-type with U-Turn to beat Psychics AND Punishment to beat CM Musharna and CM Gardevoir that already have boosts under their belts? Yes please.
Klinklang is just so good, imagine a Pokemon that can set up with ease in the face of the majority of NU's walls such as Alomomola and Lickilicky. Of course, you need Substitute to beat Lickilicky due to the occasional Dragon Tail, but Sub is already standard on Klinklang anyways.
Hariyama will be a scary Pokemon because of Guts, but he doesn't really attract me because of his piss-poor Defenses (apart from that monstrous HP). He is very slow, but really powerful.
Rhydon will be a nice Pokemon to have in this tier, because it hits so hard with it's dual STABs and has a lot of Physical bulk.
Scolipede has already been talked about, and I agree with almost everything that people said. He's going to be great to use in HO, getting up Spikes real fast. On the SD and other attacking sets, he can use Quick Feet to outspeed literally everything (Damn there should be a paralysis orb :O) when statused, making him a feared attacker. The Spikes set should be the one that will be the most frequently used, though. Scolipede will shake up the meta in a nice way, let's hope he doesn't get banned.
Munchlax is bad. It's like a mini-Lickilicky with more HP.
Mesprit is a great Pokemon, although another Psychic type in the tier might be too much to handle for one Skunk. If he drops I'm definitely trying Tri-Psychic for a second time.
Punishment to +1/+1 Standard CM musharna does 28-33% LOL. Pretty pathetic. And Payback wont do much as Mandibuzz has excellent speed for a wall. Plus most musharna would just switch out on mandibuzz anyway. Punishment doesn't even kill haunter after rocks. What I think Mandibuzz will excel in is forcing switches, whirlwind and maybe status spreading.
I wouldn't say that Munchlax is going to be bad in this meta, as it will make stall much more viable due to his amazing bulk and great SleepTalk set as he can singelhandly beat BP teams with Whirlwind, also he has Body Slam a nice STAB move with a 30% paralyze rate. Munchlax also spots 2 more resistances due too Thick Fat (Ice and Fire) and will therefore work incredibly well with pokemon like Roselia and Missy as he resists most of their weaknesses. So in my opinion Munchlax will be an decent pokemon in our current meta as it has his own niche, and spots amazing bulk which will make it much harder for the sweepers in NU to break through him, as he can phaze them and Rest up the damage hes taking.
Seconding this. Munchlax offers a nice Ice resist for stall teams, who may have trouble facing Regice's BoltBeam coverage. It kind of clashes with Grumpig though, who also has Thick Fat, a paralysis-inducing move in T-Wave and Whirlwind PLUS Leftovers recovery and Heal Bell. That said, at least Munchlax can do something to Regice and has greater physical bulk with Eviolite, but since he's clashing with Grumpig, an underrated poke in his own right, or Lickilciky as has been mentioned, I'd say Munchlax won't be too bad in NU. Who knows, he may have Metang syndrome...
Munchlax doesn't really clash with Grumpig due too Grumpigs typing which is clashing with spinblockers (Dark and Ghost weakness) and loses to offensive attackers like Skuntank and Haunter, Munchlax either beats or wall both as hes immune to ghost, and beats Skuntank with Body Slam, this makes Munchlax a much more prefered phazer than Grumpig due to his resistances and only weakness in fighting which can easely passed up with a ghost, poison or an psychic type. Also Munchlax doesn't need Heal Bell or other moves too supoort hes team as other team mates like Misdreavus can carry Heal Bell and Munchlax has Body Slam that can cause paralyze.
Sure, Munchlax is immune to Ghost, but what can he do back? Anything that deviates from the "standard" RestTalk Body Slam Whirlwind set just to hit Ghosts will drastically reduce his effectiveness against everything else.
I compared Munchlax with Grumpig due to move similiarities and their general roles on a defensive team: they're meant to wall the living hell out of most special attackers, spread paralysis and phaze. Their typings are still taken into account, but how they fare against most physical attackers isn't much different from how the other does. Munchlax gets owned by Sawk, but Grumpig isn't taking hits from Sawk well either. Munchlax performs better against Skunk...until it Taunts you so you can't Rest when weakened or Sleep Talk when asleep, leaving you a sitting duck in most cases, not much better off than Pig if you ask me.
I didn't say Munchlax can do much too ghost types, but they can't do much too him either as Taunt is easely predictable. Munchlax can paralyze and beat Skuntank with Body Slam which after some turns (If he gets the para) can Rest up again before it gets Taunted, which in my opinion is much better than what Grumpig does as it can easely be Taunted (Bar Magic Guard, but Grumpig have four moveslot syndrom) and then he is Pursuit bait, yes Grumpig can run Thunderbolt or Focus Blast for Skuntank, but will most likely lose anyway due to Sucker Punch. The thing here is that Grumpig is mostly used as Heal Bell/Thunder Wave support and Munchlax is mostly used as a Tank/Phazer, so we shouldn't really compare them due to them sharing the same ability and both having a phazing move when their niche is different.
Please enlighten me then on how different they are from their roles that I shouldn't be making that comparison (It's that Scolipede and Deoxys-D argument all over again). You say Munchlax is a tank? So 85 base Attack with 85 base power Body Slam is "stronger" than 90 base Sp.Atk with 90 base power Psychic, and somehow Grumpig is not considered a tank? It's not just the ability and phazing that makes them so similiar, it's their access to paralysis and ability to hardwall most special attackers that I relate them to. If anything, it's only their typing, type of offense (physical or special, not like that matters too much on walls) and Pig's access to Heal Bell that really sets them apart in terms of defensive capabilities. You also said that Ghost types can't do much against Munchlax even with Taunt as that is easily predictable. What does that prove? Doesn't that make Munchlax even more helpless as he now can't heal or phaze while the Ghost whittles away at it, forcing you to switch?
To further reinforce on how almost similiar they are, they tend to struggle with the same variety of physical attackers even if the other looks to have an advantage. Both don't take Sawk's Close Combat well/at all. Both struggle against Ghosts (Grumpig actually handles Haunter better than Munchlax). The only exception I can think of is Gurdurr, and I've replaced Ice Punch with Payback ever since Amoonguss hit the road.
Skuntank actually outdamages Munchlax in the scuffle, scoring a guaranteed 3HKO after SR and a still very high chance without (damage ranges 32-38%), while Munchlax struggles to cope with its lack of recovery against Skunk's own and risks getting Taunted before and after the Rest. This is not counting defense drops and assuming Munchlax is at full health.
To further reinforce on how almost similiar they are, they tend to struggle with the same variety of physical attackers even if the other looks to have an advantage. Both don't take Sawk's Close Combat well/at all. Both struggle against Ghosts (Grumpig actually handles Haunter better than Munchlax). The only exception I can think of is Gurdurr, and I've replaced Ice Punch with Payback ever since Amoonguss hit the road.
Skuntank actually outdamages Munchlax in the scuffle, scoring a guaranteed 3HKO after SR and a still very high chance without (damage ranges 32-38%), while Munchlax struggles to cope with its lack of recovery against Skunk's own and risks getting Taunted before and after the Rest. This is not counting defense drops and assuming Munchlax is at full health.
That statement was bad and you should feel bad. Roselia is very good in RU, let alone NU. She is an excellent bulky spiker who can reliably set up Spikes, has an offensive presence, and is a great special wall who can take on some strong special attackers. It was very good in RU and is just as good in NU. It is by no means abysmal. I would recommend playing on PS (I'm on android so I don't have the PS Link) before commenting on the viability of a Pokemon.
That said, Munchlax may make for a decent special wall in NU (it walls Charizard!), thanks to that good special bulk. It can take a lot of special hits, and can benefit from Missy support. Though as Punchshroom said, it may face some competition from Grumpig... But let's see!
Munchlax can't wall Charizard if it runs Focus Blast. I don't think that anything can really wall Charizard.
Speaking of Munchlax and Ghost-types, I'm excited to pair him up with Misdreavus. They have wonderful defensive synergy with eachother: typing wise they cover eachothers weaknesses and stat wise misdreavus can wall the physical fighting types that plague munchlax such as sawk, and can also heal bell munchlax to wake it up from rest. The two also benefit immensely from a hazard layer (huh might try scolipede here) as mismagius prevents them from getting spun away and munchlax can abuse them with whirlwind.
Speaking of Munchlax and Ghost-types, I'm excited to pair him up with Misdreavus. They have wonderful defensive synergy with eachother: typing wise they cover eachothers weaknesses and stat wise misdreavus can wall the physical fighting types that plague munchlax such as sawk, and can also heal bell munchlax to wake it up from rest. The two also benefit immensely from a hazard layer (huh might try scolipede here) as mismagius prevents them from getting spun away and munchlax can abuse them with whirlwind.
Timid Charizard has an equalivent of 1050 SpA in the sun, without Specs, and only a few things can avoid the 2HKO, and those which can are slower than Charizard. No prediction required.
With Specs, in the sun... Fire Blast hits almost as hard as Focus Blast on Muchlax despite the effectiveness difference due to the multiplier stack on Fire Blast. We are getting into the 1500+ SAtk territory here.
With Specs, in the sun... Fire Blast hits almost as hard as Focus Blast on Muchlax despite the effectiveness difference due to the multiplier stack on Fire Blast. We are getting into the 1500+ SAtk territory here.
Aasgier
You do have to keep in mind that not everyone uses Charizard in the Sun. Charizard can still work great outside of the Sun and take advantage of its good Special Attack, Speed, and coverage. The most common Charizard set I have seen would have to be Scarf Zard, which Munchlax is capable of beating quite well, especially with Stealth Rock up. Munchlax can Whirlwind it to rack up damage from hazards or hit it for good damage with Body Slam. The few Solar Power Zards that you do see however, are usually self-supporting with Sunny Day Heat Rock/Lefties, so Munchlax won't have to bear the burden of taking extremely powerful Solar Power Sun Specs Fire Blasts. SD Acrobatics Zard obviously destroys it, but it is nowhere near as common as the special attacking sets. The ability to beat a great amount of special attacking threats while providing phazing is something Stall teams would love to have. As of now I'm using a Zweilous set that plays a very similar role to Munchlax on Stall teams, that I'll reveal that in more detail some other time. (RMT)
You do have to keep in mind that not everyone uses Charizard in the Sun. Charizard can still work great outside of the Sun and take advantage of its good Special Attack, Speed, and coverage. The most common Charizard set I have seen would have to be Scarf Zard, which Munchlax is capable of beating quite well, especially with Stealth Rock up. Munchlax can Whirlwind it to rack up damage from hazards or hit it for good damage with Body Slam. The few Solar Power Zards that you do see however, are usually self-supporting with Sunny Day Heat Rock/Lefties, so Munchlax won't have to bear the burden of taking extremely powerful Solar Power Sun Specs Fire Blasts. SD Acrobatics Zard obviously destroys it, but it is nowhere near as common as the special attacking sets. The ability to beat a great amount of special attacking threats while providing phazing is something Stall teams would love to have. As of now I'm using a Zweilous set that plays a very similar role to Munchlax on Stall teams, that I'll reveal that in more detail some other time. (RMT)
My little (less than) cent about statistic: Amoonguss (9°) and Cincinno (6°) position on RU usage, tell us how much they were so characterizing in NU, previously their ban. The growth increases about Miltank and Gardvoir usage, I really observed during the game, rewarding good support of first as well as (although I prefer offensive calm mind version for Gardvoir). It's rather odd, using about Armaldo (for SR i suppose). It's quite good for RS and it has many Atk moves to choose from. But I'm regarding curious, using it as a leader team.