Ubers CCAT 3 - Skies are Clear

[akuto]

Well... if we're doing an offensive core first, then I would like to propose:

DIALGA!!!

Dialga @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SAtk / 8 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Thunder
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Pulse

Take a look at this:

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Dialga:

Weaknesses:
Fighting(2x), Ground(2x)

Neutralities:
Fire, Ice, Dragon

Resistances:
Normal(2x), Water(2x), Electric(2x), Grass(4x), Flying(2x), Psychic(2x), Bug(2x), Rock(2x), Ghost(2x), Dark(2x), Steel(2x)

Immunities
Poison



Latios:

Weaknesses:
Ice(2x), Bug(2x), Ghost(2x), Dragon(2x), Dark(2x)

Neutralities:
Normal, Poison, Flying, Rock, Steel

Resistances:
Fire(2x), Water(2x), Electric(2x), Grass(2x), Fighting(2x), Psychic(2x)

Immunities:
Ground

Although Dialga has a very effective defensive set, the offensive set for Dialga is not to be overlooked. With an excellent movepool/coverage and a sky high Special attack stat, alongside a strong defensive typing, Dialga can easily fit as a partner for Latios, dealing heavy damage to both Dragons and Steel types alike. My point with all the weird highlighting and stating of the obvious is that Dialga provides excellent defensive synergy with Latios, and therefore can act as an extremely effective offensive partner, being able to tank attacks that Latios is weak to. The set contains the standard Draco Meteor and Dragon Pulse; one is for insane wallbreaking power, while the other one is for a reliable attack that doesn't cripple Dialga. Dragon Pulse is mostly a filler move though, and if you all wish, can be replaced with moves such as Aura Sphere, Stealth Rock, etc. Fire Blast is to deal with Steel types such as Ferrothorn, and Thunder is to deal with Kyogre, Lugia, etc. A Modest nature is run to maximize power, and the EVs are given to increase durability and power output, with a little bit of speed creep to outspeed base 90s that have no investment or have 4 Speed EVs. Lastly, a Choice Specs set could be run, but I think that would limit Dialga's potential, as since we have decided on an offensively-oriented team, few members will be able to repeatedly tank the attacks that Dialga will need to switch out of. Also, as a side note, as stated by Melee Mewtwo, Latios doesn't like Kingdra (a notable Rain abuser), as it can outspeed and KO Latios in Rain. Dialga can act as a one-time check for Kingdra, while not losing momentum like Ferrothorn would.

@akuto, I'm done now! What do you think? Yeah, it took me a rather long time XD... Also, in regards to your Shaymin-Sky, you should probably post a set and some more reasoning behind it, so people know what your set is/what you're trying to accomplish. An importable and a brief introduction would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. :)

I agree dialga can WRECK teams from the inside/out but physical sandstorm teams are a complete wrecking ball back at dialga and since hes slow a Kyurem-W with CS can come in and earth power or even draco you in one hit. also there is sowrds dance garchomp if u decide to switch into latios to take the EQ and he gets up a sowrds dance it's bad. i wouldn't want to risk sand veil or if i remember his speed stat correctly speed tie. we can think about this poke he has alot of potential.

Shaymin-S has alot of wallbreaking potential. not to mention pressure. basically this guy threats alot of the ubers metagame with his dual stab and speed.
@leftovers
trait:Serene grace
~Air Slash
~Seed Flair
~Sub
~Growth
nature:Timid
eves:252HP/4 spec att/252 spe.

The point of this set is to come in on a groundons EQ or kyogres water sout "below 75%"/surf and threat them out. Good situation for Sub, with groudon u can use growth, with kyogre it depends on the situation like if he goes out to kingdra or a ferro. I've used this set many times and it works wonders. the reason for it having 4 spec attack invested is because you need the hp to live kyogres moves for pressure, having growth gives it +2
able to OHKO most things.

~feed back

 

[Vincent]

Latios itself is a very good "anti-weather" poke as it can beat Kyogre,Groudon,Hippo and Ttar after some prior damage.By the way,weather abusers include Ho-oh,Reshiram,Kyogre,Swift Swimmers,Excadrill,SV Garchomp,Rock/Fire/Water Arceus.So how are we going to 'counter' them lol. We need to play stall for that.Rayquaza can check SS sweepers/Excadrill, Arceus-Fight can help against Sand,Latios can beat Groudon,Kyogre,thats pretty much it when speaking of advantage against weather.So when speaking in general I don't see how we can select just one or two pokemon to "counter" or "check" all weather sweepers XD.

I meant what Melee Mewtwo said on his item 2:

2. Speaking of weather abusers we'll need to make sure to address them. By weather abusers, I mean those that can outspeed and sweep our team thanks to having constant weather in their favor. (Exception is Blaze who gets the speed regardless but the constant Sun makes Flare Blitz nasty) The main weather abusers we should worry about are Blaziken, Kabutops, Excadrill and Kingdra. (The rest are tend to share similar checks due to poorer coverage, already handled by Latios, or are too slow to outspeed average Choice Scarf users) There are two ways to handle these threats. One is that we can run general checks like Prankster abusers (Thundy-I and Sableye), Rayquaza, speedy scarfmons (like Mewtwo), Priority (like Ekiller or Bisharp), Intimidate (doesn't really do much but it can help) or Choice Scarf Ditto. The other is that we actually run hard checks/counters to these threats.

Maybe i wasn't quite clear, sorry about that.

 

[blitzlefan]

I agree dialga can WRECK teams from the inside/out but physical sandstorm teams are a complete wrecking ball back at dialga and since hes slow a Kyurem-W with CS can come in and earth power or even draco you in one hit. also there is sowrds dance garchomp if u decide to switch into latios to take the EQ and he gets up a sowrds dance it's bad. i wouldn't want to risk sand veil or if i remember his speed stat correctly speed tie. we can think about this poke he has alot of potential.
~feed back

Latios in general performs well against Sand teams (I think???) but you're right. Garchomp will be a pretty big threat if it sets up properly. We'll probably need somebody to check Garchomp, though Latios can beat un-Scarfed versions, Latios has base 110 Speed while Garchomp has 102 Speed. Furthermore, Sand Veil is banned in standard play I think. Garchomp's not exactly a prominent threat, but we WILL need somebody to make sure we don't get swept. Who do you think could fill this role? I'm going to think on this one a little bit more.

In regards to your Shaymin-Sky, I like it, but Growth really depends on Sun being up (or it's really just a Work Up), and it puts us at risk of being beaten by Scarf Zekrom. (But that's rare I'm assuming? IDK because I used to use it on every team so... XD) BUT... Shaymin-Sky is good at scaring out the weather starters, though it cannot deal with Fire Punch/Stone Edge from Groudon and Ice Beam from Kyogre should they catch you on the switch-in or decide not to switch out. Again, I need to think about this one some more and we need MOAR FEEDBACK from everybody else.

 

[akuto]

yeah i was thinking maybe we could have some support if we ran Skymin like bulky kyurem-w. if we were to run him that is but he would just be a gimmick almost completely useless agaisnt excadrill. i was also thinking maybe about running roar. or Dragon tail on more than 1 pokemon to check smeargals smash/pass maybe giratina-O or just giratina since we are running offensive hazards. and about latios being good against sand, hes pretty BL. if we run soul dew hes checked by most scarfers. especially CM defensive groundceus. and about svarf zekrom hes not TOO common as far as usage stats go and what I've seen

 

[blitzlefan]

yeah i was thinking maybe we could have some support if we ran Skymin like bulky kyurem-w. if we were to run him that is but he would just be a gimmick almost completely useless agaisnt excadrill. i was also thinking maybe about running roar. or Dragon tail on more than 1 pokemon to check smeargals smash/pass maybe giratina-O or just giratina since we are running offensive hazards. and about latios being good against sand, hes pretty BL. if we run soul dew hes checked by most scarfers. especially CM defensive groundceus. and about svarf zekrom hes not TOO common as far as usage stats go and what I've seen

In all honesty, I've never run Shaymin-Sky, and I've only used Kyurem-W a little bit as a wallbreaker with Haban berry, so I really don't know. Hopefully someone else more experienced with those two can chime in. I can only theorymon for them. But defensive Kyurem-W is probably a bad idea, as its bulk is only so-so, and Stealth Rock weakness and common weaknesses keeps it from being a big defensive poke. And yes, Latios has a huge weakness to scarfers, so we will need to accomodate for that, but Arceus-Ground can probably be taken out with Grass Knot + Psyshock. And yeah, Zekrom in general isn't too common. I was just madly in love with it for a couple months. XD

 

[akuto]

In all honesty, I've never run Shaymin-Sky, and I've only used Kyurem-W a little bit as a wallbreaker with Haban berry, so I really don't know. Hopefully someone else more experienced with those two can chime in. I can only theorymon for them. But defensive Kyurem-W is probably a bad idea, as its bulk is only so-so, and Stealth Rock weakness and common weaknesses keeps it from being a big defensive poke. And yes, Latios has a huge weakness to scarfers, so we will need to accomodate for that, but Arceus-Ground can probably be taken out with Grass Knot + Psyshock. And yeah, Zekrom in general isn't too common. I was just madly in love with it for a couple months. XD

I've run bulky K-B in ou and it worked better than the smogon sets. but idt it will work in ubers. we might need to play around with this on PS than when we have the full team we can use it on wi-fi.

 

[Bryce]

Dialga is a good partner,but I must ask,why Life Orb+HP investments?If it is intended to take hits then a Life Orb should not be the right item imo. Palkia is usually superior to Dialga as an attacker,but Dialga has it's advantage in bulk and typing.So if Dialga's a candidate,I think it's bulk should be given the emphasis. I'm not saying that we should run a defensive spread,rather just not use Life Orb since it sacrifices Dialga's extra bulk.

akuto's skymin set looks interesting,but an extremely unappealing fact about it is how much it makes us Ho-oh weak.Ho-oh can easily come in and set up a Sub in it's face.Then it's going to be pain in the a$$.If skymin goes for growth,it'll most likely be murdered by Ho-oh's attack. It also makes us more weak to scarf mons and speed boosting weather abusers while not making up for it via sheer power.It's benefit of scaring away weather starters also kinda overlaps with Latios. However,if given the opportunity I think it can do some damage.Seed Flares spdef drops will also help us in maintaining momentum.I have mixed opinions about it :x

 

[lousy918]

Actually wanted to submit Dialga but too late so:
Damn it I keep changing my mind

Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly (+Spe, -SAtk)
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- X-Scissor
- Toxic

It can utterly smashes Chansey, Blissey and standard uber Ferrothorn. It also easily switches into CM Darkceus, and can switch into anything bar WoW on the support set, then rape it with CC. Rockceus and Steelceus are in a similar position, but Terrakion cannot switch into Steelceus. EKiller may set up on Latios, especially one at -2, but is revenged by Terrakion. Ho-oh is wiped from existance by Stone Edge, and outspeeds and OHKOs ScarfDialga. Kabutops, which outspeeds and threatens Latios with Stone Edge, is outsped and OHKOed with CC if not running Jolly. Heatran, another pokemon that walls Latios, is also OHKOed by CC. Terrakion pisses T-tar off. Terrakion also lures out Giratina, which is promptly murdered by Latios. Lugia is also lured out and poisoned badly, crippling it badly for thr rest of the match.

can we submit more than one

Darkrai @ Focus Sash
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
- Dark Void
- Thunder Wave
- Focus Blast
- Dark Pulse

With a speed stat that allows it to outspeed Arceus, Darkrai can easily put any Ghostceus or Darkceus to sleep. Should they switch to a sleep absorber to activate sleep clause, no worries; T-Wave would hinder any attempts at a sweep, as they will now get outsped by most of the metagame. So Lugia, heard you wanted to wall Latios? Too bad, coz you're gonna sleep. Darkrai also tends to bait in Tyranitar, which it can damage beyond reparation, allowing Latios to beat it later on. Chansey is the best of all, Darkrai gets a free Dark Void on it, and hits the switch-in hard with an essentially 120 power move coming off a base 135 SAtk, before Dark Voiding that too (thank Natural Cure). Also, scarfers tend to switch in to revenge kill after Dark Void, but are then paralyzed, easing Latios' sweep, as it no longer has to switch out of ScarfKia, ScarfKion and ScarfSect.

 

[blitzlefan]

Dialga is a good partner,but I must ask,why Life Orb+HP investments?If it is intended to take hits then a Life Orb should not be the right item imo. Palkia is usually superior to Dialga as an attacker,but Dialga has it's advantage in bulk and typing.So if Dialga's a candidate,I think it's bulk should be given the emphasis. I'm not saying that we should run a defensive spread,rather just not use Life Orb since it sacrifices Dialga's extra bulk.

Thanks for your input! You're right, I guess. Running Life Orb on bulky Dialga is probably be counter-intuitive, but it does allow Diagla to hit especially hard while having some semblance of bulk. It was the best compromise I could come up with. I guess there are a few alternate paths to take. First, would be run an alternate item: Choice Specs, Expert Belt, Adamant Orb, etc. that doesn't reduce its bulk while having some offensive presence. Second, would to run an alternate offensive spread of 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe or something similar. Third, would to run a defensive spread (SR, DP, FB, and Roar) with an defensive spread (Modest, 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe). What do you guys think - which option should I change my submission to? Also, what do you think about Dialga in general?

 

[MMII]

I'm moving so I can't post much now buuut

1. I'm not sure if we should be focusing so much on an offensive core featuring Latios. Seeing as Latios is just a wall breaker, it would probably be best to build an offensive core that benefits from the walls he lures out and weakens. (Then again, I'm not too big on offense so I probably shouldn't nitpick, lol)

2. Dialga is cool. An easy fix to the conflicting LO and Bulk investment is just switch the item to Adament Orb. (Or, I guess Draco Plate to troll Trick CB Arceus...)

3. Growth is bad idea for Shaymin as we are a weatherless team and Growth is a move for Sun. Shaymin itself isn't such a bad idea, though, so maybe a SubSeed set (or 4 attacks) would be worth using.

I'll think about this some more and eventually find a suggestion (or support one of the ones already posted)

 

[Bryce]

Hmm,lets see what Latios lures out and weakens:

1.Ferrothorn
2.variants of Support Arceus
3.Chansey
4.Lugia(partially with rocks up,gets walled by it otherwise)

what completely walls it:
1.SpDef Arceus forms that resist/immune to psyshock,such as Arceus Dark,Arceus Steel etc
2.Physically defensive arceus with Calm Mind not weak to Latios's moves,such as Grass Arceus outside of sun
3.SpDef Lugia
4.Jirachi
5.CM Arceus Rock in Sand

Note:There is a high possibility that I missed a few mons on the above lists or added something which shouldn't be there.I'll edit it if you can point out such mistakes.

A CM Arceus seems to be the best partner for an offensive core according to the list,but it might not be wise to pick Arceus this early.Dialga can perhaps lure out and help break through Lugia with Thunder,Jirachi and some variants of Arceus to further help Latios to wall break.In which case a Dialga set of 252SpAtk/180 Spd/76 HP with Modest nature looks pretty suitable.So in my opinion,Latios+Dialga and a CM Arceus later in the project would form a pretty good offensive core.

 

[akuto]

I'm moving so I can't post much now buuut

1. I'm not sure if we should be focusing so much on an offensive core featuring Latios. Seeing as Latios is just a wall breaker, it would probably be best to build an offensive core that benefits from the walls he lures out and weakens. (Then again, I'm not too big on offense so I probably shouldn't nitpick, lol)

2. Dialga is cool. An easy fix to the conflicting LO and Bulk investment is just switch the item to Adament Orb. (Or, I guess Draco Plate to troll Trick CB Arceus...)

3. Growth is bad idea for Shaymin as we are a weatherless team and Growth is a move for Sun. Shaymin itself isn't such a bad idea, though, so maybe a SubSeed set (or 4 attacks) would be worth using.

I'll think about this some more and eventually find a suggestion (or support one of the ones already posted)

thank you for the feedback smash i appreciate it! shaymin does look like he would be filling a few rolls if we were to have him so hes got my vote. We can decide on his set before we give him the okay though. and as far as I've heard, lugia seems to be the biggest threat "so far" excluding weather inducers. maybe we could slap bulky giratina-o onto there or maybe nasty plot thunderous. something to check lugia and force him out or get a clean kill on him.

 

[jackm]

Well, I did some thinking and I came up with something that I think could work.

Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Download
252 Atk / 32 SAtk / 224 Spe
Hasty Nature
- U-Turn
- Ice Beam
- Iron Head
- Explosion

Choice Scarf Genesect could be just what Latios needs to shine; by abusing Genesect's ability to U-turn on the opponent's switch, one can open up numerous opportunities to make use of Latios' nukelike Draco Meteor. Additionally, Genesect frequently lures Ho-Oh and Giratina, opponents which, after Stealth Rock and U-Turn, are easily dispatched by Latios if they don't switch out. Between Genesect and Latios, Kyogre is easily handled; a boosted U-Turn to the face will not be appreciated, and Latios can finish even the most bulky Kyogre with a Grass Knot. Genesect's U-turn also forces numerous switches, loading hazard damage on the opponent that Latios can take advantage of. Because of the immense pressure that Genesect imposes on the opponent to mispredict (or simply be scouted), I believe that running it is the best way to showcase Latios' incredible wallbreaking potential.

Incidentally, Genesect also functions as one of the most effective revenge killers in the tier, opening up a slot on our team.

 

[lousy918]

u have 4 leftover EVs on sect, add it to SAtk
Edit: also I did think of sect at first but dismissed it as RKer.

 

[Manaphy]

I'm surprised this hasn't been suggested yet: a Hyper Offensive Double Lati Team. It functions in the same mindset of what Ray/Salamence does, weakening each other's counters enough so that one of them can sweep, which DoubleLati does well since both of them have very few checks and counters. Basically, we beat the opponent with the pure offensive pressure of Double Lati. I've seen it work before but I don't remember the Latias set all that well, but it was usually something similar to an Offensive Latios;

Latias @ Soul Dew
Trait: Levitate
4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
-Draco Meteor
-Recover/Dragon Pulse/whatever
-HP Fire
-Psyshock

Recover is mostly a free space since Latias doesn't really need Grass Knot; it already scares off Kyogre and Groudon. Also, I'm getting way ahead of myself but a Magnezone wouldn't be a bad idea if we do anything involving Double Dragons; for example, we could run a SubCharge one and not care about the Spikes Ferro/Forry lays due to Levitate.

While I know having an offensive partner similar to Latios was discouraged, I think Latias has some distinct advantages over Pokemon like Palkia, for example Latias is much faster, bulkier and hits harder than Palkia (without LO) which allows it to sweep better than Palkia could.

 

[blitzlefan]

@ -Manaphy--
Hmmm.... I see where you're going with Latias + Latios, but both are rather hindered by their lack of Steel killing attacks and both are unable to get past the same checks/counters
1.SpDef Arceus forms that resist/immune to psyshock,such as Arceus Dark,Arceus Steel etc
2.Physically defensive arceus with Calm Mind not weak to Latios's moves,such as Grass Arceus outside of sun
3.SpDef Lugia
4.Jirachi
5.CM Arceus Rock in Sand
and also leaves us vulnerable to Tyranitar, EK Arceus, and scarfed Dragons.

However, statwise, Latias is superior to Palkia, though Palkia is a bit more versatile.

Edit: mmm I suppose you're right! I need to think about this a little bit more I suppose.

 

[Manaphy]

The Pokemon you listed are why it works well; those Pokemon are vary rarely seen if at all. Additionally, Latias' stat advantages are no to be overlooked. Latias has 100 or so more Special Attack than a Max base 150 and with Soul Dew it can actually take a Scarfed hit, such as a Spacial Rend from Palkia. 110 is also fantastic and outspeeds most of the metagame.

I do agree with you that there is some counters overlapping, but that's what the other 4 Pokemon are for.

 

[lousy918]

Ferrothorn is 5th in ubers usage, that's not rare.
Same applies to Lugia, which hard walls both Eon twins without being SDef.
ekiller?

 

[Manaphy]

Ferrothorn is 5th in unrest usage, that's not rare.
Same applies to Lugia, which hard walls both Eon twins without being SDef.
ekiller?

Did you read? I was referring to Jirachi, Specially Defense Arceus types like Dark, Arceus-Rock in Sand, etc. THOSE are the things that are rare in this metagame. Ferrothorn also dies to HP Fire, and Lugia can be easily dealt with.

 

[blitzlefan]

Ferrothorn is usually in Rain, so won't easily be defeated by HP Fire. 252 SpA Soul Dew Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 136-160 (38.63 - 45.45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. Admittedly, Jirachi is pretty rare (2.57773%), and Arceus Steel has only decent usage I suppose (4.55715%), but Giratina-O (17.18305%) can revenge kill both with Shadow Sneak and EK Arceus tears through them both. They will also need some way to get around Ho-oh as well though.

EDIT: OOPS! Forgot about Soul Dew! Don't know how I forgot. Stupid me. I'm sorry.

 

[Manaphy]

Yes, in Rain it's a problem. Giratina-O can revenge kill but it can't switch-in, and are you sure that Extremespeed OHKO at full health? Ho-Oh gets one shotted by Psyshock after SR damage.

Also, you should be calcing with Soul Dew instead of Life Orb.

 

[blitzlefan]

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 178-210 (58.94 - 69.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
However, the OHKO is guaranteed after a Swords Dance boost, and Latias can't OHKO with Draco Meteor.
But you're right, 252 SpA Soul Dew Latias Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 190-225 (45.78 - 54.21%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, so Ho-oh isn't as big of a threat as I initially thought it would be.

Hmmm... personally I just don't like how similar they are, but I'd like to hear what everybody else thinks on this one.

 

[Manaphy]

At full HP, an ekiller could come in and SD up yes. But it can't switch in: correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Psyshock followed by a Draco Meteor OHKO Arceus? Also yes, since many Sun teams only answer to Lati@s is Ho-Oh or Forretress, this can lead to a massive amount of damage against them.

Anyway, Palkia's main advantage is being able to better deal with Steels, as well as not being revenged by Giratina-O. Latias' advantages are being faster, bulkier, and hitting harder, along with Levitate and Psyshock to mess up Special walls. Personally, I like Latias better but I wouldn't cry if you choose Palkia instead (in particular Specs Palkia is a nuke)

 

[lousy918]

Did you read? I was referring to Jirachi, Specially Defense Arceus types like Dark, Arceus-Rock in Sand, etc. THOSE are the things that are rare in this metagame. Ferrothorn also dies to HP Fire, and Lugia can be easily dealt with.

sorry but i was assuming u meant all lati checks and counters

Ferrothorn does not get OHKOed and stalls with Leech Seed and T-Wave

"Lugia can be easily dealt with" is not a good argument lol, it's bulky as hell with multiscale (not that i like it) and only things that OHKO are Zekrom, Reshiram in sun and Kyurem-W, which we likely aren't gonna put on the team.

sorry for double post just stating a point

 

[Bryce]

Latios+Latias is something I would love to try to be honest.However,both being weak to exactly the same pokemon is what doesn't make it that good.Firstly,Latios can't get past stuff like SpDef Arceus-Dark,SpDef Lugia at all.Secondly,having same revenge killers is going to be a pain when facing offensive teams.Not being weak to Genesect's U-turn/Giratina-Os shadow sneak and such are actually pretty big advantages Palkia has over Latias as a Latios partner.

jackm's Genesect suggestions looks incredibly good.Genesect really seems to make an excellent partner for Latios.My only concern is that Genesect doesn't really contribute much as a member of the offensive core.Rather,I would have it as a solid partner in the role of a momentum grabber to aid our offensive core.