CAP 16 CAP 5 - Part 7 - Secondary Ability Discussion

[Korski]

Needs Discussion:

Thick Fat
Shield Dust
Synchronize
Water Veil

Done Discussing:

Defiant
Frisk
Immunity
Insomnia
Limber
Oblivious
Own Tempo
Overcoat
Poison Heal
Rattled
Sap Sipper
Trace
Unaware
Unnerve
Vital Spirit

Short List (Keep Discussing):

Ineffective Ability
Infiltrator
Leaf Guard
Sticky Hold

--------------------

Alright the lists are back, to focus our discussions. Because Harvest is all about items, it stands to reason that people who feel disinclined to use berries would want some kind of benefit in that ability slot. However, based on our stats and without a movepool yet, the only non-berry item I can imagine CAP using successfully is Leftovers. And so I pose a series of questions:

• Do we want our CAP to be able to utilize Leftovers and simultaneously benefit from an ability? How powerful should we make this benefit, and how does this benefit support the concept or threat lists?
• Is a secondary ability for the sake of using Leftovers worth any potential risk of skewing the concept off its main path?
• How would a CAP with Leftovers perform in other weathers (besides Sunlight) with the various abilities still up for discussion? Are these interactions with other weathers beneficial or not?

I've got Thick Fat and Water Veil in my crosshairs here, as I think those two in particular might be pushing our CAP too far away from our concept assessment. You don't have to answer the questions directly in your posts from here on out, but know that those things are on my mind as I work out the final slate. The abilities currently on the Short List, to me, represent good examples of the sorts of niche or negligible effects that keep Harvest in the spotlight while highlighting smaller aspects of the concept. They have been well-supported thus far, although I'd like to see some more discussion on these abilities compared to one another as this thread dwindles down.

Good talk.

 

[Vann Accessible]

I really fear what will become of this mon if Thick Fat were applied. A bulky grass type with a nice water/ground resist and a fire/ice neutrality sounds like a godsend for rain and sand teams. Besides, this capmon absolutely NEEDS the fire weakness in particular so sun teams can beat it, especially since the majority of fire attacks are special. Do we really want this guy to wall Growth+HP Fire Venusaur?

Leaf Guard still seems like the safest bet for a second ability to keep this guy sun friendly. In the rare instance you would want forgo Harvest, a surprise Choice Band Tank set could be viable, possibly with Switcheroo, or a Leftovers + Wish passer set, which would really benefit Ninetales and Sash Dugtrio, and would still be inferior to Vaporeon in other weathers due to Grass/Dark's lousy defensive typing (U-Turn OHKOs) and sun friendly ability in comparison to Water Absorb.

 

[inanimate blob]

I'll discuss two abilities, Leaf Guard and Shield Dust.

Leaf Guard: This is essentially a Safeguard, for one Pokémon, in the Sun. It's not really the most competitive ability on any other team than Sun, of course, but that would actually warrant the use of Sun.

The issue - it functions the same as the Lum Berry set with Harvest, which also works best in the Sun, and can even function to an extent without it. There would be almost no reason to use this set over Harvest, besides the helpful Leftovers, which could be compensated for with RestLum.

Shield Dust: This ability, in my opinion, can actually function a lot better than a potential Leaf Guard set while not overshadowing Harvest.

Suddenly, you don't have to worry about hax. There's one thing that the Harvest set can never do - be able to take on Jirachi, at least not the haxxy sets, like the Paraflinch set. This ability would also help with just normal hax, but unfortunately that could be covered to an extent by Harvest. Still, with Shield Dust, you could work without the true threat of Jirachi, and also keep the helpful Leftovers recovery.

EDIT: Thick Fat: Why is this even on the table? It's very OP for CAP5, considering the fact that it would only have weaknesses to Bug and Fighting. That would give people even less of a reason to use Sun/Fire/Ice types.

 

[Stratos]

Thick Fat? Oh dear. This is such an awful choice that I actually am mostly convinced that Yilx was trolling in his original post in support. (apologies if you weren't). Citing Keldeo as a reason for thick fat? has to be a joke

Thick Fat drives us away from our goal by providing us with resistances to typings we don't want to resist, because other teams want those resists just as desperately. In exchange for being able to beat mamoswine—the one plus I can see, as he really screws up sun—we are now really drifting from our concept. It helps only marginally to beat Politoed and Lati@s, the pokemon we set out to beat, as Sitrus will enable us to defeat either even through their SE coverage move. However, it steers completely clear of our defined goals with harvest by letting us beat Pokemon we had never planned to. Furthermore, as I said earlier in the primary ability thread, Grass is not a natural sun-loving type. We have ingrained in our heads that it is, because so many Grass mons get sun abilities, just as we have ingrained in our minds that gen V is the fighting meta, even though there are only three good fighters. But when you look at it, abilities are the only thing keeping grass, or CAP5, linked to sun. If we give it a strong ability that works in any weather, we have destroyed everything we set out to do. IA is the only way to go for me.

 

[Shiruba]

I agree with sentiments passed by many; we were so concerned with being OP with Harvest, that Thick Fat's suggestion boggles my mind. Thick Fat would shut down the sun teams we're trying to promote; going entirely against the direction we're taking with this concept.

Shield Dust could be good, but I cringe at the thought of other types of teams utilising this. No longer will sand have to be screwed over by rain's Jirachi, either! Having a physical Poke immune to scald while providing coverage over rock and ground's weakness sounds like it'd be amazing. Amazing special bulk for dealing with abusers like Politoed and Thundurus and resisting their STAB sounds like a dream, to me.

Unless someone can reiterate otherwise, I don't believe Shield Dust would be great for our concept.

 

[RivRivRiv]

Needs Discussion:

Thick Fat
Shield Dust
Synchronize
Water Veil

Done Discussing:

Defiant
Frisk
Immunity
Insomnia
Limber
Oblivious
Own Tempo
Overcoat
Poison Heal
Rattled
Sap Sipper
Trace
Unaware
Unnerve
Vital Spirit

Short List (Keep Discussing):

Ineffective Ability
Infiltrator
Leaf Guard
Sticky Hold

I notice you missed Klutz in your list. I assume that means it doesn't warrant further discussion, which is fine. Just wanted to make sure you didn't miss it.

As far as Sticky Hold goes I would support it for the same reasons I proposed Klutz. Indeed being able to use and retain a helpful item may be more beneficial than passing a negative item off to Latios, especially considering it can Trick it off to another one of your Pokemon, and Latios still has to fear wasting a turn Tricking as long as the Sticky Hold item doesn't give itself away.

tl;dr: What happened to Klutz, but I also support Sticky Hold

 

[Korski]

I notice you missed Klutz in your list. I assume that means it doesn't warrant further discussion, which is fine. Just wanted to make sure you didn't miss it.

Alright fair enough. I've moved Thick Fat to the "Done Discussing" list in light of recent posts and IRC-talk, and I have added Klutz to the "Needs Discussion" list (in the kickoff post, which is the one I'll be updating, not the post above). It's pretty similar to Sticky Hold, although it is competitively weaker. If you or anyone else would like to make a more thorough argument for Klutz than the ones already posted, I think it would do us some good, maybe.

 

[GrassBlade]

I want to talk about Synchronize. It shares a common goal with many other submitted abilities, the idea that CAP 5 can sacrifice itself to get rid of a threat to sun. Examples like:

Klutz with Lagging Tail to disable Latis.
Sticky Hold to stop Trick (iirc).
Infiltrator to defeat screens.

All the sets lose a lot of survivability that Harvest offers, but uses itself to bomb down a threat to sun. Similarly, with Synchronize, you are killing your survivability, but defeating things like Scald/Toxic/Hypnosis Toad. It is severely outclassed by Harvest, but it can be used as a surprise counter to threats. The main issue is that it could become an all weather anti-toad. If it really is that bad, I just hope it gets some artistic ability, or No Competitive Ability.

 

[Legend13]

Thick Fat might cause some problems for Heatran, and CAP5 already has near Blissey-level Special Defense.
Shield Dust, Leaf Guard, and Water Veil all help deal with those annoying scald burns. Shield dust wont stop wisps, Leaf Guard only works in Sun, and Water Veil blocks burns and burns only - out of these three, Leaf Guard seems to be the best.
Synchronise is sort of strange; CAP5 actaully suffers way more than the pokemon that burned/poisoned/paralyzed/slept/froze it.
Sticky Hold might be useful against a surprise scarf trick, but thats about it.
As for Infiltrator, the pokemon CAP5 counters rarely Dual Screen; they have better things to be doing with their time.

By the way, can Abilities on the "Done Discussing" list get slated?

 

[alexwolf]

• Do we want our CAP to be able to utilize Leftovers and simultaneously benefit from an ability? How powerful should we make this benefit, and how does this benefit support the concept or threat lists?

Yeah we should go for it, as long as the defensive sets featuring Harvest will be the generally superior ones. Leaf Guard gives more utility to all-out attacking sets, as well as sets that want to utilize Sunny Day, but apart from those is outclassed by Harvest. For example if we give to the CAP a decent coverage option that doesn't beat any of the Pokemon that we want to counter us, such as Wild Charge, then the CAP could use Leaf Guard with a max HP / max Atk spread, and Rapid Spin as the 4th move. Or it could Leaf Guard with a normal max HP / max SpD spread with Sunny Day and Morning Sun for reliable reovery and weather control. Those options would be nice for the CAP to have, as they would give it a little versatility, while still strictly sticking to the CAP's concept.

• Is a secondary ability for the sake of using Leftovers worth any potential risk of skewing the concept off its main path?

Lead Guard won't be given for the sake of using Leftovers, it will be given for the sake of making all-out attacking and sunny days sets a bit more viable. And this is fine, because there is no risk of skewing the concept off its main path, as long as we are careful with the moves that we give to the CAP (something that should already be in our mind).

• How would a CAP with Leftovers perform in other weathers (besides Sunlight) with the various abilities still up for discussion? Are these interactions with other weathers beneficial or not?

The CAP gains nothing from Leaf Guard on other weathers, and this is the best thing we could ask for. No risk of increasing the usage of the CAP in other weathers equals to no risk in derailing from our purpose.


I don't like Shield Dust at all. It is too strong of an ability to give to a Pokemon with an already great ability, and is not specific to our purpose at all. If we want to give a secondary ability to the CAP to deal with Scald, this should be Water Veil, but even this one does nothing to help the CAP in sun teams. All it does is help the CAP outside of sun teams, something that we don't want.

 

[Nyktos]

Do we want our CAP to be able to utilize Leftovers and simultaneously benefit from an ability? How powerful should we make this benefit, and how does this benefit support the concept or threat lists?

No, I don't think we do. Not that it's a bad thing if it can, I guess, but in truth Leftovers is just worse than Harvest + Sitrus and none of the proposed abilities make up for the difference. I think offensive sets with LO or maybe CB are more likely than defensive sets to make use of whatever secondary ability we choose. I don't think encouraging either lefties or an offence-boosting item really helps or hurts the concept; neither one is likely to substantially change the threat lists.

Is a secondary ability for the sake of using Leftovers worth any potential risk of skewing the concept off its main path?

Not even the slightest bit. That said, I don't think that any of the abilities on the shortlist or "needs discussion" list have any real potential of derailing the concept; but then, I don't think any of them really help to achieve it either.

How would a CAP with Leftovers perform in other weathers (besides Sunlight) with the various abilities still up for discussion? Are these interactions with other weathers beneficial or not?

Even outside of sun, I would much prefer to use Harvest than any of these abilities, with the possible exception of Shield Dust. That said, any non-sun ability makes it oh so slightly more tempting to use CAP 5 outside of sun, which is why I dislike them and think that Leaf Guard is the best choice.

I reiterate my previous points: any "competitive" ability is going to be at worst a distraction from our goals, and at best a completely meaningless addition to the CAP. I understand the desire for versatility (even if I see it as unnecessary to this CAP) but Harvest provides tons of options on its own, and we can make decisions about how useful each of those options should be at the movepool stage. A secondary ability is just one more thing to keep in mind, despite the fact that in the end it's unlikely to have any real reason to be used over Harvest.

In the end, it really feels to me like those who support a secondary ability do so simply "because we can" and not because we need it in any way. There is no aspect of the concept or the goals we have chosen that is not adequately dealt with by Harvest sets. There is no requirement to be unpredictable to succeed, and Harvest can be unpredictable on its own. There is, quite simply, no reason to give this thing a secondary competitive ability.

I will say though that, categorical objection to secondary competitive abilities aside, all abilities currently on the shortlist are more or less fine, and I think Water Veil would be too. Leaf Guard is a sun ability, and the rest are niche but are clearly related to the concept. This is more than I can say for Shield Dust or Synchronize, which just feel too disconnected from everything else. Klutz is...Klutz.

 

[Todd]

I really think that water veil is not going to suddenly force CAP 5 onto sand teams. Sand already has Gastrodon to counter Politoed, while CAP 5 would just be piling ice/fighting weaknesses on to a playstyle that has enough problems with those moves as it is. Sure, it'll look appealing, but once that mach punch Techniloom sweeps through your Tyranitar, Terrakion, CAP 5, and whatever else, it's going to start seeming a lot less so. CAP 5 just does not have a typing that makes itself useful to sand (unless it gets thick fat, which is ridiculous). I love Cacturne, for example, but the amount of compensation you have to do to cover the additional weaknesses completely restructures the sand team, which seems like a little more work than people would want to do to just to slip a Politoed counter onto a team that already has good ones as it is.

I think that it'd be nice for CAP 5 to have water veil as an option to run heat rock sets (I'm still wary of offensive sets) while still switching into scalds, but i am equally supportive of no competitive ability/ineffective ability. Infiltrator's kinda neat, though.

 

[Windsong]

I really think that water veil is not going to suddenly force CAP 5 onto sand teams. Sand already has Gastrodon to counter Politoed, while CAP 5 would just be piling ice/fighting weaknesses on to a playstyle that has enough problems with those moves as it is. Sure, it'll look appealing, but once that mach punch Techniloom sweeps through your Tyranitar, Terrakion, CAP 5, and whatever else, it's going to start seeming a lot less so. CAP 5 just does not have a typing that makes itself useful to sand (unless it gets thick fat, which is ridiculous). I love Cacturne, for example, but the amount of compensation you have to do to cover the additional weaknesses completely restructures the sand team, which seems like a little more work than people would want to do to just to slip a Politoed counter onto a team that already has good ones as it is.

I think that it'd be nice for CAP 5 to have water veil as an option to run heat rock sets (I'm still wary of offensive sets) while still switching into scalds, but i am equally supportive of no competitive ability/ineffective ability. Infiltrator's kinda neat, though.

Actually, depending on its movepool and whatnot, this thing could easily merit a place on bulkier sand offense teams that have issues with Lati@s and defensive Rain. Something like Hippowdon/CAP5/Skarmory/Starmie/Jirachi/Landorus-I would actually be totally cool and usable, provided CAP5 gets a reliable recovery move. I would also totally support Water-Veil as as secondary ability since it lets this thing flat out stomp most standard defensive Rain builds (without winning the weather war), which is a nice way to increase the diversity in the metagame.

 

[Bughouse]

A thing to remember about Water Veil is that it may well lead to CAP5 being used in the rain too, not just against it.

Just a thought.

 

[jas61292]

I don't have too much to add on any of the specific abilities, but I want to make sure one thing is made clear: Harvest is an incredibly powerful ability both in AND out of sun. I don't think any of the abilities being considered can be generally considered to be better than it, even out of sun, and almost all claims that any of these abilities will make it better in an opponsing weather have been very much without any base. Different abilities will change the viability of non-berry items much more than it will change the viability of non-sun weathers.

As Korski said, what we should be discussing is whether we want these other items to be able to still benifit from an ability and to what extent. Remember, the path we chose is to help sun, not simply to use Harvest. If using Harvest only is best for the concept, that is fine, but you really will need to prove that is the case if you don't want other abilities. Simply taking some of the usage away from Harvest is not a negative thing if the ability is good for the concept in some way.

 

[RavensNation]

I'm throwing my support behind Synchronize, as I feel that it will always be an inferior ability to Harvest, with or without sun. One thing to remember is that Harvest has a 50% activation rate outside of the sun, so if it feels like it, it'll jump into rain teams whether we want it to or not because there will be people specifically looking for ways to incorporate it into said teams, and they'll probably succeed, too. That will be the best way to test if CAP 5 is a success or not, in my opinion. It's kind of an inherent risk of having chosen that as the primary ability. Therefore, I don't see how Synchronize would outclass Harvest in any way other than it can cause status effects to opponents crippling you with status effects.

As for Thick Fat, aren't we supposed to be weak to Fire-type moves in order to increase the usage of Fire-types? The fact that so many Water-type Pokémon also carry Ice-type moves is unfortunate, but we'd be straying farther away from the concept by shoring up the Fire weakness in our attempt to nullify Water-types even more. Giving CAP 5 Thick Fat would also make it more appealing to use in sand teams because of how well it counters rain teams in general. It's already going to be used in rain teams no matter what, so why risk making it a viable option for sand teams as well?

Also, does it matter if a secondary ability ends up overshadowing Harvest? If CAP 5 does its job of boosting the sun's style of play, consequently raising the usage of underused Fire- and Grass-type Pokémon, haven't we accomplished the job we set out to do?

EDIT: Oh. I guess I'm piggybacking off of what jas said. Lol. I originally said "in fact" and finished the same sentence with "in my opinion".
EDIT, part deux: Dammit. We're not discussing Thick Fat anymore.

 

[RivRivRiv]

I started writing my last plea for Klutz, but I managed to convince myself that Sticky Hold is the superior option, as a Choice-Locked Trick with no effect is a guaranteed switch for CAP 5 to hit hard with Pursuit - arguably a better deterrent to risking a Trick on CAP 5 than the threat of a status orb or Lagging Tail that can be offloaded with another Trick. The real appeal of a Trick-immunity-granting secondary ability is it will deter Trick against all CAP 5's until the ability is revealed.

Now that I've discussed something I'm not meant to I'll behave myself and discuss what actually needs discussing:

Thick Fat will see use on all teams. CAP 5's special bulk is justified because it has so many weaknesses. We don't have any business taking two of them, away and it will benefit other play styles way more than sun.

Shield Dust is similarly misdirected. Immunity to Scald burns will make CAP 5 a fantastic Politoed counter on any team.

Synchronize is a pretty poor ability. Getting burnt by Scald still huts CAP 5 more than it hurts Politoed. This might as well be "Ineffective Ability" in my opinion.

Water Veil has the same problem as Shield Dust, albeit with a bit less utility.

None of these abilities warrant inclusion on the slate as far as I'm concerned. I like the current short list as each ability, especially Infiltrator and Sticky Hold, has a niche that helps CAP 5 do it's job.

 

[Inferblaze]

Harvest is the first and the "must to use ability" so the second one must be a for surprising set, let me explain:

In the stats part all run a power whip / pursuit / crunch calc, because we see a CAPmon with killing moves, but what if we want to run a subseed set? almost all grass-pokes have it and with that special def... well Leaf Guard can help us to have leftovers and with no toxic... so it´s a ability that helps in a surprising and not so used set so it can be a good idea.

The other one can be Klutz, because when a rival see the CAPmon they will want to kill it or at least take that berry out, so bug bite or trick are the moves, bug bite will 1HKO, then trick and switcheroo will come and can be cool that some CAPmons have some flame or toxic orb, lagging tail maybe? and because if you get a hit and don't get a berry boots the rival can predict this ability, so not many people will use it.

Then what we need for second ability is a ability that help a set that will be use in very low rate and can not be used properly in rain or sand... So in my opinion Leaf Guard and Klutz are the real two good ability to take.

 

[Sulticune]

Ineffective ability

I think that Harvest is a fascinating idea, and we really need to just keep it to Harvest only to really explore Harvest's potential. Ineffective abilities really add to the flavour of the pokémon, so I think we should go for this!

 

[DHR-107]

What I really do not like at ALL about Klutz is that people will invariably push for Trick or Switcheroo to be on OUR moveset. CaP5 should not really have the option for those 2 moves in combination with Klutz as an offensive option. If we have Klutz and no item switch move I think it could use it defensively very well, but I really do not want to see it used offensively in the manner that Lopunny does.

Either way, I think it may benefit other forms of teams over sun teams to a degree. If something is likely to trick you a Choice scarf/specs and you can give them lagging tail though it leaves you at a distinct advantage.

 

[RivRivRiv]

What I really do not like at ALL about Klutz is that people will invariably push for Trick or Switcheroo to be on OUR moveset.

I meant to touch on this when I first suggested Klutz, insofar as I would ABSOLUTELY NOT advocate Trick or Switcheroo in our moveset. Obviously I can't speak for everywhen but I envisaged it as a purely defensive option, which I now believe is done better by Sticky Hold, particularly because our nasty item used with Klutz could get Tricked onto another member of our team later in the match.

 

[CiteAndPrune]

It's taken me some time to catch up on this topic, but I see there's not much new I can add besides agreeing with the general trends. I find Leaf Guard to be a perfect option for CAP 5, due to its status protection and sun requirement. Ineffective Ability is also definitely something to consider.

In terms of purely defensive abilitites, I think Shield Dust and Water Veil would be somewhat too helpful for what they do, while Synchronize is not rewarding enough for landing CAP 5 with the status anyway.

However, Wonder Skin might be worth something, if only to dodge the occasional Toxic/Thunder Wave/WoW/maybe Hypnosis-Spore? It doesn't overshadow Harvest, in fact I think Harvest abuse on non-sun teams would still completely outclass the Wonder Skin sets, except for something really niche... but it is a form of status protection and pivots would appreciate those.

Early Bird would let CAP 5 run Rest with 1 turn recovery, inferior to LumRest obviously, but still making for some very niche uses, giving an alternate way to survive Draco Meteors without relying on Harvest or switching for another teammate to take the blow.

Klutz has much more uses offensively, while Sticky Hold is better defensively and I find both could suit CAP 5's needs since its prime strategy requires it to hold a berry.



Now, more importantly, there's one detail that makes me doubt if Leftovers are the item we should look at for CAP 5, nor Life Orb for any sets, because the healing/recoil would instantly reveal that CAP does not hold a berry and thus isn't a Harvest variant. It makes me think an Expert Belt or Elemental Gem to boost our moves against the targets we're aiming at would be better.

 

[Unoriginal Name]

I've had my opinion changed after thinking about it, and I'll reveal that later.

Leaf Guard LumHarvest is superior. Ignore.

Natural Cure LumHarvest is superior. I have déjà vu. Ignore,

Ineffective Ability My second-best choice, and surely an option. If all else fails, we can make a berry-centric mon.

Klutz, Sticky Hold and Wonder Skin These are all in the same category as I have the same opinion: they could work, but there's no point on using them on Sun. Still, Sun-based isn't a must.

Infiltrator Okay, this is a small ability, but it's my current favourite. It's a nice niche, but doesn't outmatch Harvest, which makes it a great secondary. This is kind of based off of a dual screens Rain team I faced off against once with a Latias. It was pretty much untouchable. Dual Screens is deadly, and Infiltrator does something no berry can do. If you want CAP 5 to not have a berry as its held item, Infiltrator works well, as a just-in-case. Still, this is kind of hypocritical to say, as my Klutz/Sticky Hold/Wonder Skin opinions are based off of them being just as effective out of sun, but this ability gives us the same effect. However, there's not as much reason to use this on Rain or Sand than Sun and Trick Room (Dual screens walls the death out of most Trick Rooms, believe it or not).

Also...

I love the tags.

 

[capefeather]

My main concern with a lot of the abilities being considered is that they have to contend with an ability that is pretty powerful even outside of sun. While I've warmed up to the idea of CAP 5 using Leftovers in conjunction with a secondary ability, I'm just not sure of how feasible that is. Ironically, this makes me think that the interaction of an ability with other weathers (or no weather) might actually be perfectly fine, as long as it's still more geared toward sun teams.

 

[Korski]

Let's see if I can't get the first and last posts on the same page.

Oh, and 24-hour Warning!

--------------------

Needs Discussion:

Water Veil

Done Discussing:

Defiant
Early Bird
Frisk
Immunity
Insomnia
Klutz
Limber
Oblivious
Own Tempo
Overcoat
Poison Heal
Rattled
Sap Sipper
Shield Dust
Synchronize
Thick Fat
Trace
Unaware
Unnerve
Vital Spirit
Wonder Skin

Short List (Keep Discussing):

Ineffective Ability
Infiltrator
Leaf Guard
Sticky Hold

--------------------

Well I've done a little more housekeeping on our discussion lists, moving Early Bird, Klutz, Shield Dust, Synchronize, and Wonder Skin to the "Done Discussing" lists. Early Bird is trying to do what LumRest does for Harvest sets, but with a wasted turn in exchange for an item slot. Ignoring the flavor implications, this is still an ability that fails to address anything that pertains to the concept or threats list, even though it fits the criteria of being 100% inferior to Harvest. Klutz is off the table largely due to the fact that it is just about as versatile as Harvest in terms of item use, and throwing that many variables at an unfinished CAP can only distract us during the Movepool stage. Additionally, creating a CAP that can viably use more than ten different items is a clusterfuck waiting to happen. Besides, Sticky Hold, which is already on the Short List, aids our CAP much better against Psychic-types and others who run Trick sets. Shield Dust and Synchronize have been shot down by many a poster, and for good reason: their scope is too broad and their appeal is addressed in more concept-friendly ways by both Leaf Guard and Water Veil, which are both still up for grabs. Finally, I struck down the possibility of Wonder Skin because it's bad optics as a hax ability and otherwise does nothing for us.

The Short List is again the preemptive slate, just like last time, so please use the last 24 hours of discussion to get in any final thoughts you may have on the listed abilities. I've left Water Veil up in Needs Discussion because I want to see more consensus built around it.

Almost there!