Ubers CCAT 3 - Skies are Clear

[blitzlefan]

I'm probably leaning towards the second option, as a re-vote will just drag the process longer than it needs to be. Also, some of the people who we don't see very often that voted before probably won't vote a second time. But I guess it would be okay?

 

[scorpdestroyer]

I'd say option 3. We've already spent 12 pages and nearly 300 posts without even deciding on the second team member. We don't need to drag this.

Either that or do option 1 with only a 24 hour time window for voting

 

[Bossness]

Go for option #2. It satisfies both sides since technically, both Deoxys-S and Terrakion won. Also, we have unanimously decided that Deoxys-S would be added sooner or later anyway. If we have to spend another round to vote for Deoxys-S, it not only slows down the process but also interferes with votes for other Pokemon(every user is also allowed to vote for one Pokemon only).

 

[akuto]

scorp I'm pretty sure palkia is our second team member. and i will stick with good-ol Option 1. we don't need to go picking team members out of a bucket we can go about this with strategy. i like option 2 but it bothers me because we pick 2 pokes that are speedy and kinda don't go well together. I gave my explaination on why i dislike terrakion on THIS team. I say he is a solid choice on a offensive core but to many pokes check him in ubers/out-speed. I'm on the edge about it for tie breaking option 1 but most likely if we do another it will take more time giving us less opportunity to pick more pokes. aside the facts I'd rather go with option 1 knowing that deo-S so likely to be picked

 

[blitzlefan]

scorp I'm pretty sure palkia is our second team member. and i will stick with good-ol Option 1. we don't need to go picking team members out of a bucket we can go about this with strategy. i like option 2 but it bothers me because we pick 2 pokes that are speedy and kinda don't go well together. I gave my explaination on why i dislike terrakion on THIS team. I say he is a solid choice on a offensive core but to many pokes check him in ubers/out-speed. I'm on the edge about it for tie breaking option 1 but most likely if we do another it will take more time giving us less opportunity to pick more pokes. aside the facts I'd rather go with option 1 knowing that deo-S so likely to be picked

This isn't completely accurate. Not many pokes can outspeed scarf Terrakion (usually, the fastest scarfer is Palkia) and none of them can check Arceus-Normal like Terrakion can (which is HUGE). With the exception of Scarf Mewtwo and Scarf Shaymin-S, though, but those are rare and destroyed by priority. Also, Deoxys-S provides basically no synergy anyway, as it just spams hazards and dies, so it's really just Terrakion + Latios, which go great together. Lastly, Terrakion is more of a late game cleaner while Latios is a wallbreaker so they should fare decently well together. However, Terrakion is a bit weak though.

 

[Hack]

#2 seems fair. I am in the strong belief that Deoxys-S must be used eventually, and Terrakion fits into the team anyway.

 

[Sweep]

I also support option two, as both are extremely good members to the team.

 

[Bryce]

It seems that we all had admitted that Deo-S would be chosen at some point. Terrakion also looks to be an ideal revenge killer on the team.So,I'm going for #2 as well.Option #1 would just make things longer and people might lose interest,while option #3 is plain unnecessary,dropping out a guaranteed member.

 

[akuto]

Blitz sure they arnt to viable as scarfers and are rare. But there are clory, and swift swimmers. Not to mention sand rush who can easily take terrakion out or set up. also about arceus norm bulky sd can take a cc from terrakion. I cant look at dmg calcs being on a phone i dont want to kill myself outa frustration. Max hp max att being bulky.

 

[lousy918]

Blitz sure they arnt to viable as scarfers and are rare. But there are clory, and swift swimmers. Not to mention sand rush who can easily take terrakion out or set up. also about arceus norm bulky sd can take a cc from terrakion. I cant look at dmg calcs being on a phone i dont want to kill myself outa frustration. Max hp max att being bulky.

only kingdra, jolly kabutops, excadrill and scarfed shaymin-s and darkrai outspeed lol
not sure what's clory
since we're gonna run hazards a spinblocker is mandatory and we're prolly gonna run gira-o which solves excadrill and kabutops

 

[jackm]

Well, considering there has been large support for option 2, I'm going to enact that: In addition to Deoxys-S, Scarf Terrakion is now part of our team. This means that we now have part (or all) of our offensive core and our hazard setter. Logically, our next step is the spinblocker; as such, this is what we're going to choose next. Of the spinblockers available, I think that really only Giratina-O and Arceus-Ghost are notable; I'd advocate Sableye as well, but we already have a revenge killer for Extremekiller and that's one of Sableye's big draws. Personally, I think that Arceus-Ghost would work best as a win condition for our team once our threats are gone; however, we have to take into account what happened last time we haphazardly added an Arceus forme to our team. The loss of access to key players like Arceus-Normal, Arceus-Grass, and others could prove fatal, so remember that.

Otherwise, discuss!

 

[akuto]

I think in addition to a spin blocker we will need a spinner. if terrakion comes in on spikes and rocks than he will be OHKO'ed by Espeed arceus with life orb. i was thinking bulky excadrill since he will solve our anti-weather poke problem and serve as a decent spinner. and clory was short for chlorophyll. i didn't want to type that long word on a phone Lol.

 

[blitzlefan]

@akuto:
Life Orb isn't as common as it used to be, and isn't a very good item on Arceus-Normal, as it ruins Arceus-Normal's excellent bulk and it makes it harder to sweep as Arceus-Normal will eventually kill itself. Also, Silk Scarf is run more commonly than Life Orb (Silk Scarf is used 36.287% of the time, while Life Orb is used 22.122% of the time), so we should probably base calculations on that.

Originally Posted by Fat akuto
Blitz sure they arnt to viable as scarfers and are rare. But there are clory, and swift swimmers. Not to mention sand rush who can easily take terrakion out or set up. also about arceus norm bulky sd can take a cc from terrakion. I cant look at dmg calcs being on a phone i dont want to kill myself outa frustration. Max hp max att being bulky.

Chlorophyll sweepers are not used in Ubers, though Swift Swimmers may be a problem as so might Excadrill (the most viable Sand Rush user in Ubers), though Giratina-O can deal with Excadrill. Also, the most commonly used Arceus-Normal spread is Adamant: 88/252/0/0/0/168, at 18.224%, so I will use this for calculations.

First off, if you want "standard" Arceus-Normal, then
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 336-396 (83.37 - 98.26%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. No problem. Easy OHKO after Stealth Rock and a tiny bit of extra damage, in the form of a prior attack, Life Orb recoil perhaps, a layer of Spikes, etc. and we're in the clear.

Next, if you want "bulky" Arceus-Normal, then
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 336-396 (75.67 - 89.18%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. Which will be pretty easy to accomplish as well seeing as we'll have Spikes support and possible Life Orb recoil as well. I highly doubt we'll see any "bulky" variants, but a couple switch-ins or two layers of Spikes guarantees an OHKO, as 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 336-396 (75.67 - 89.18%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and (2 layers of) Spikes.

Originally Posted by Fat akuto
I think in addition to a spin blocker we will need a spinner. if terrakion comes in on spikes and rocks than he will be OHKO'ed by Espeed arceus with life orb. i was thinking bulky excadrill since he will solve our anti-weather poke problem and serve as a decent spinner. and clory was short for chlorophyll. i didn't want to type that long word on a phone Lol.

Lastly, this statement is blantantly false. Sorry, but
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 193-227 (59.56 - 70.06%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and (3 layers of) Spikes

 

[akuto]

Ik life orb isn't to common. i just wanted to give a scenario and it was the first thing that popped up XD and before ladder reset a little while ago on PS up in ubers 2k i was seeing alot of chlorophyll sweepers that nearly destroyed me at times. and i also once a terrakion came in on SR 3 layers of spikes while beta testing this team, a full Hp healthy one and i OHKO'ed him with Espeed none crit so now I'm confused Lol.

 

[lousy918]

Giratina-O @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 248 Def / 8 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Shadow Sneak
- Outrage
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake

haha currently elaborating

Options for Spinblockers: Ghostceus, Sableye, Giratina(-O)
1) Ghostceus loses to offensive spinners if they get to +2.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Ghost: 409-484 (92.11 - 109%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Ghost in rain: 438-516 (98.64 - 116.21%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

2) Sableye is pretty unreliable as WoW only hits 75% of the time, plus if the opponent is a +2 offensive spinner, Sableye will survive up to 3 turns if it spams recover, including the burning turn.

3) Giratina-O > Giratina because Giratina-O is strong while Giratina just walls and that kills too much momentum, considering our team is of an offensive nature. Gira-O sits there being immune to Spikes and EQ, plus physical investment means it can take hits relatively well too.

I focus on physical walling, because it shares roughly the same resistances and weaknesses as Latios, having advantages only in taking Bug, Normal, Fighting and Poison attacks. Poison is non-existant in Ubers. Bug-type attacks are just Genesect’s U-turn which is physical. Normal-type is from EKiller and Wallceus only, who are physical too. Special Fighting-type moves are only from Mewtwo and Darkrai, both of which hit Gira-O SE anyway. 8 Spe allows me to outspeed Mixed Zekrom and other 4 Spe base 90s. Shadow Sneak because I want to limit Deoxys-S to one layer and Deoxys-A to one attack, plus revenge weakened Mewtwo. Outrage is to hit anything I like (general STAB) and Dragon Tail phases. I use EQ > WoW, because I need to hit Excadrill and WoW tends to miss, plus it allows me to beat SubSD Excadrill. I don't speed creep Tentacruel because imo that's a rare sight and 76 EVs is too much of a waste. It becomes much stronger with max attack, however if anyone disagrees I can change it.

 

[akuto]

Giratina-O @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 248 Def / 8 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Shadow Sneak
- Outrage
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake

haha currently elaborating

Options for Spinblockers: Ghostceus, Sableye, Giratina(-O)
1) Ghostceus loses to offensive spinners if they get to +2.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Ghost: 409-484 (92.11 - 109%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Ghost in rain: 438-516 (98.64 - 116.21%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

2) Sableye is pretty unreliable as WoW only hits 75% of the time, plus if the opponent is a +2 offensive spinner, Sableye will survive up to 3 turns if it spams recover, including the burning turn.

3) Giratina-O > Giratina because Giratina-O is strong while Giratina just walls and that kills too much momentum, considering our team is of an offensive nature. Gira-O sits there being immune to Spikes and EQ, plus physical investment means it can take hits relatively well too.

I focus on physical walling, because it shares roughly the same resistances and weaknesses as Latios, having advantages only in taking Bug, Normal, Fighting and Poison attacks. Poison is non-existant in Ubers. Bug-type attacks are just Genesect’s U-turn which is physical. Normal-type is from EKiller and Wallceus only, who are physical too. Special Fighting-type moves are only from Mewtwo and Darkrai, both of which hit Gira-O SE anyway. 8 Spe allows me to outspeed Mixed Zekrom and other 4 Spe base 90s. Shadow Sneak because I want to limit Deoxys-S to one layer and Deoxys-A to one attack, plus revenge weakened Mewtwo. Outrage is to hit anything I like (general STAB) and Dragon Tail phases. I use EQ > WoW, because I need to hit Excadrill and WoW tends to miss, plus it allows me to beat SubSD Excadrill. I don't speed creep Tentacruel because imo that's a rare sight and 76 EVs is too much of a waste. It becomes much stronger with max attack, however if anyone disagrees I can change it.

like i said before on thi set, it is completely viable. but taking chances on sets for your set to do work and having the cahnce of sacing your poke for nothing not really my thing. HUGE set up fodder for fero and foro. i think the set should carry wOw in my opinion over EQ just for more control. arceus ahost and arceus norm is a threat to this set as well. arecus nrom carrying shadow force of course.

 

[Bryce]

I must ask,are the previous spin blocker nominations still in effect?Or do we have to re-nominate them.

 

[Haruno]

Anyone mind enlightening me on how we're making an "innovative" team? All I see right now is your standard ubers HO team.

 

[IAmAnHero]

I said that on the last page and everyone either ignored it or just didn't care. I'm with you though. There's nothing innovative about a Deoxys-S HO team at all. Not having a weather user doesn't make the team innovative.

 

[lousy918]

lol I did suggest other options for hazard setters, but nobody listened lol
such as skarm

 

[MMII]

Sorry, I moved and lost my internet connection but I found out the local bakery has free Wi-Fi so I'll be able to post again. (though not as much as I used to for a while, lol)

So far it looks like we pick our hazard lead (Deo-S wasn't exactly a given but close enough :P) and our Revenge Killer. I think we really need to focus on our offensive core before making another support pick (spin blockers) as it'll be the foundation for our team.

 

[jackm]

Regardless of whether we build a team that can be considered "innovative", the inherent drive of this project (as well as that of the website of Smogon) is to have fun. We're trying to make this innovative, and if you can provide me with a detailed explanation of how we should do this project and succeed in innovating by all means go ahead. This is a learning experience, and if we fail then we've still learned something: Offensive Weatherless in Ubers is doomed to cookie-cutter syndrome. We all (well, I can't speak for all of us but I know that this is true for me) are aware of the fact that picking Deoxys-S isn't terribly innovative in any regard, but if it's necessary for the team to succeed then we'll take it. Bad innovation is just as counterproductive to our concept as good stereotype, and I think that everyone who has put time into this project would rather get something that they can at least battle with out of it.

 

[blitzlefan]

Does being "innovative" even matter that much? First off, the term "innovative" is vague and the definition is up in the air. Second, just because we're using hazards and a spinblocker (which a lot of teams probably have) doesn't suddenly make us a cookie cutter team... :( What would you guys define as innovative? We tried out of the ordinary stuff like Arceus-Dragon, but that didn't work.

Edit: oops *facepalm* I guess after we get a spinblocker we gotta come up with something innovative? EK Arceus is probably out of the question now... Arceus-Dragon anybody? :P

 

[jackm]

Well, the point of CCAT is to create a team that is both competitive and innovative, so... kindof.

 

[akuto]

Idt our team is cookie cutter or "inovative" at all. Actually i think this is in one of the most clever and original teams i`ve even helped to build. Having all these smart people coming to point out things and suggest things and help out is wonderful and ik we can pull this team together!