Doubles OU sounds great. Simple, doesn't sound too wierd, and you know what it is.
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General Doubles Metagame Thread
- Thread starter Pocket
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No, please don't affiliate this with such an awful tier.
If doubles goes well, won't it eventually need tiers titles anyway? Or is that just a joke?
Smogon Doubles, Doubles OU, whatever. Just "Doubles" doesn't work any more than we call every singles tier "Singles," shit needs some sort of other qualifier to go with it. What kind of doubles?
get ur canada language out of here
i'm not a fan of Doubles OU, because it implies a ladder for Doubles Ubers, Doubles UU, etc, which dont exist. Doubles is doing well, but not well enough to have this format branching out into multiple tiers. It's like calling LC, LC OU.
Anyways, I'd rather not hassle Zarel in name-changing the ladder when we haven't officially / decisively decided on the name yet. Smogon Doubles have been working so far, so mine as well keep the status quo for now.
Just had some tournament matches versus Pwnemon. I lost the bo3, but here's a gamehttp://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles11886624 that displays the combo of Dusknoir + Eruptran, as well as some underappreciated mons like Darkrai and Shaymin-S. I've been messing around with Darkrai's last slot, and decided to go with Substitute for now (@ Dark Gem), which proved to be handy in this game. Shaymin-S hits ridiculously hard with Life Orb, but Yache Berry saved the day in this game ;d
Anyways, I'd rather not hassle Zarel in name-changing the ladder when we haven't officially / decisively decided on the name yet. Smogon Doubles have been working so far, so mine as well keep the status quo for now.
Just had some tournament matches versus Pwnemon. I lost the bo3, but here's a gamehttp://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles11886624 that displays the combo of Dusknoir + Eruptran, as well as some underappreciated mons like Darkrai and Shaymin-S. I've been messing around with Darkrai's last slot, and decided to go with Substitute for now (@ Dark Gem), which proved to be handy in this game. Shaymin-S hits ridiculously hard with Life Orb, but Yache Berry saved the day in this game ;d
That combinations work very well. While I appreciate the bulk that Dusknoir has, I sometimes get pwnd thanks to prankster Taunt spam, which, unless I choose the correct lead, simply stomps me as my mons keep dying on switch in. I've been trying Darkrai and Shaymin-s too, very underrated. Snarl, being an underrated move, does wonders coming from Darkrai's high SpA and STAB.
The one thing I've seen from Shaymin-S so far is that its mediocre defenses and easily exploitable typing really stands out. Every one that I've faced has died very quickly, and when there's a ton of fake out, tail wind, trick room, and weather sweepers around, along with multiple enemies, its blazing speed can't save it from all the stuff it would easily roll in OU.
That being said, that motherfucker still hits like a truck, and to my knowledge absolutely murders all of the common fake out users (Hitmontop, Scrafty, Toxicroak, maybe Infernape and Weavile if people run that? Although Weavile would just ice shard you anyway and be done with it). It's definitely nothing to sneeze at and definitely something you'd want dead as soon as possible. Too bad it's too frail to use its few support options. I might try one out one day.
Can't say much about Darkrai, as I've only seen Joim's and Pocket's. Surprised I haven't seen more former ubers about; most I've seen is some Deo-A and Deo-D, the former being very frail (took like half of its hp off with one fake out, it was crazy) and the latter...I dunno what it can really do in 2v2 that any other support mon can't. Surprised there isn't more Manaphy abuse with all the rain on the ladder.
Speaking of, has anyone used either Manaphy or Genesect? My test trials with the former were...less than impressive, although I've gotten some decent use out of the latter, even though it was on a shittastic team.
That being said, that motherfucker still hits like a truck, and to my knowledge absolutely murders all of the common fake out users (Hitmontop, Scrafty, Toxicroak, maybe Infernape and Weavile if people run that? Although Weavile would just ice shard you anyway and be done with it). It's definitely nothing to sneeze at and definitely something you'd want dead as soon as possible. Too bad it's too frail to use its few support options. I might try one out one day.
Can't say much about Darkrai, as I've only seen Joim's and Pocket's. Surprised I haven't seen more former ubers about; most I've seen is some Deo-A and Deo-D, the former being very frail (took like half of its hp off with one fake out, it was crazy) and the latter...I dunno what it can really do in 2v2 that any other support mon can't. Surprised there isn't more Manaphy abuse with all the rain on the ladder.
Speaking of, has anyone used either Manaphy or Genesect? My test trials with the former were...less than impressive, although I've gotten some decent use out of the latter, even though it was on a shittastic team.
I used Genesect sort of effectively, I slapped a scarf on it a while back. Used it with Abomasnow/Starmie/Hitmontop/Volcarona/Metagross. It was good but not great. Needs a ton more testing, though.
Also, imo use either Doubles or some variant of Smogon Doubles, don't make it too difficult. Doubles OU implies that we have more than one tier, and if this gets divided up into more than one tier anytime soon, you're asking for trouble. Develop the main tier first, grow the playerbase, and THEN talk about splitting
Also, imo use either Doubles or some variant of Smogon Doubles, don't make it too difficult. Doubles OU implies that we have more than one tier, and if this gets divided up into more than one tier anytime soon, you're asking for trouble. Develop the main tier first, grow the playerbase, and THEN talk about splitting
The problem with Simple Beam is that you need to use two turns to set up: using Simple Beam and then boosting with the Simple pokemon. I'd argue that Quiver Dance or Nasty Plot are better boosts than -physical- Shell Smash, because you become utterly weak to Intimidate after Simple Beam so you want to boost your special sweepers. Defensive boost can also sorf of work. It's a powerful combination in either case, but Taunt ruins it quite easily, its more of a plan B-option than a full fledged strategy.
Nah it's too flippant to draw such conclusions, Joim. Indeed, there are the infamous TerraCott combo that would almost always fail versus a player well-versed in doubles. However, certain combo like TR Dusknoir / Dusclops + Eruptran or Firestorm's TR Slowking + Gastrodon are effective, because of the ease and consistency in set-up. If we use the DuskTran as an example, it takes two turns of Trick Room + Sunny Day for ErupTran to truly turn destructive. Despite multiple turns of set-up, it's consistent and easy, because once Trick Room goes up reliably enough, Dusknoir / Dusclops would move before anything to summon Sun followed suit by Heatran's bloated Eruption. Similar concept for Firestorm's Slowking + Gastrodon really (Slowking's Surf moves first followed by the special onslaught of Gastrodon with +1 - +2 SpA boosts).
Something like Genesect + Shell Smash Cloyster can work for the same reason, since Genesect moves first to turn Cloyster Simple followed by the quadrupling of offenses with Shell Smash. In contrary to what Bent1ey has stated earlier, it only takes 1 turn to set up, as explained above.
Simple Beam + set-up sweeper does share some similar counters to the TerraCott strategy, though. Rage Powder / Follow Me would divert Simple Beam away from the set-up partner, for instance. Contrary to Whimsicott, though Genesect is not dead-weight outside of providing Simple Beams, so it has the flexibility to change tactics and find another opportunity to pull off this strategy. This need for flexibility is probably what Joim was really trying to say. However, a reliable 2-man core certainly exists in doubles, imo (even a 3-mon core, although these are understandably much riskier to pull off)
Something like Genesect + Shell Smash Cloyster can work for the same reason, since Genesect moves first to turn Cloyster Simple followed by the quadrupling of offenses with Shell Smash. In contrary to what Bent1ey has stated earlier, it only takes 1 turn to set up, as explained above.
Simple Beam + set-up sweeper does share some similar counters to the TerraCott strategy, though. Rage Powder / Follow Me would divert Simple Beam away from the set-up partner, for instance. Contrary to Whimsicott, though Genesect is not dead-weight outside of providing Simple Beams, so it has the flexibility to change tactics and find another opportunity to pull off this strategy. This need for flexibility is probably what Joim was really trying to say. However, a reliable 2-man core certainly exists in doubles, imo (even a 3-mon core, although these are understandably much riskier to pull off)
Eh, what I meant is that when using simple beam you're spending one turn for each of your pokemon... Single Beam from Genesect (1 turn) and Shell Smash from Magcargo (1 turn, I obviously mentioned Shuckle for the lols). Whimsicott's Beat Up is actually faster: Whimsicott uses Beat Up (1 turn) and Terrakion kicks the crap out of you (0 turns without attacking). In the first example no damage is dealt until the next turn, while Terracott deals damage during the turn it's set up.
I wouldn't say Whimsy is useless, it can set up Tailwind, Prankster Taunt, force switches with Encore (which punishes Protecting pretty hard) and has an unreliable sleeping move (unless you got Gravity?). But the crux of the argument remains true: Whimsy is no Genesect. 'Sect is an actual threat when he's on the field, and the fact that both your Shell Smasher and your Genesect can be used without trying to abuse Simple Beam to their full abilities makes the combo a bonus of sorts more than a necessity.
Edit: Terracott combo isn't weak to Taunt.
Well, it's easier to count the strategies like that that work than the strategies than don't. You are right on the second part, I meant it's not very flexible, and 2-man cores that need several turns need to be well thought of and you must take into account the weaknesses.
DuscTran can be stopped by Taunt, 25% of the times T-wave, or KOing Dusclops. DuskTran can be stopped by double Taunt, 25-% of the times T-wave, or KOing Dusknoir which is easier. If the opposing team has a Flash Fire user with a ground move, it's countered too. Two priority users also can stop an Eruption and deal with Heatran before it uses Heat Wave. Fake Out can too stop it from using an Eruption while the teammate Focus Blasts it. It's a very good strategy, but the other 4 members of the team must work too in case this goes wrong and it won't always work.
The biggest threats to the Dusk + Heatran combo are definitely Pokemon that can move first under TR. Gasrtodon especially is a real bitch.
Btw about that Slowking + Gastrodon combo, i assume that it is best used with Politoed support, to make Surf + Muddy Water spam really deadly.
Btw about that Slowking + Gastrodon combo, i assume that it is best used with Politoed support, to make Surf + Muddy Water spam really deadly.
I think the main thing with these two pokemon strategies is not that you just have two pokemon that work very well together to execute a certain strategy, but that can also work with other pokemon when the time calls for it. I've found this happens most when the pokemon used are good in their own right, and if you see something that you know will fuck up the strategy you have a good fallback.
Yep, I've found Quagsire troublesome too as it can OHKO Heatran with EQ.
Manaphy has trouble abusing Hydration Rest or Tail Glow due to being being double targeted. I've seen it Surf/Blizzard spam before and utilize Heart Swap pretty effectively.
Genesect I find is very useful for +1 U-turns and Normal Gem Explosions as well as having Dual Screens, Thunder Wave, Simple Beam, and good coverage on the special side(Ice Beam is particularly useful). All of these help a lot and outside of U-turn, people don't really expect Genesect to be using these weapons.
Also, has anyone tried Screech/Metal Sound? In doubles, it would be significantly better than Helping Hand in certain situations(the debuffer goes first and you aim to specifically knock out a certain threat. Also, the effects last longer than one turn).
Accelgor gets Acid Spray, most of the Prankster abusers get Fake Tears, Murkrow and lots of fast stuff get Screech.
At +4 I would be spamming Cloyster's spread moves, since it would most definitely destroy both enemies on the field. Switch out Genesect for Abomasnow (or summon Hail beforehand) so Cloyster can spam perfectly accurate +4 Blizzards!
I'd probably use Surf, too, and add a Storm Drain / Water Absorb user.
Joim: If I'm facing a slower opponent, I wouldn't be so quick to set up Trick Room. This is more of a flaw of Heatran as a TR sweeper than a flaw of the 2-mon core, imo. Yes the opponent can also bring out 2 hard hitters that can double-target KO Dusknoir, but then I would simply switch out (or not lead with Dusknoir in the first place)? I will find another opportunity to set up Eruptran with Dusknoir, nbd.
In most of these occasions I lead with Scrafty and Victini to Fake Out and fast attack or Cresselia to support Scrafty, sometimes I win before I can use ErupTran, hehe. I'm using Escavalier right now, so I try to run TR nonetheless since it can deal with Gastrodon and Quagsire with its strong Mega Horns (especially with Helping Hand).
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