Gen-NEXT development thread

[Zarel]

- Stealth Rock nerf. This move gains a stacking nature Spikes has. After one layer, the base dammage of SR is 1/16. After two layers, it's 1/12. After three layers, it is what it is right now after one layer: 1/8. The eventual dammage output remains the same, but you have to waste three turns of effort.

I already nerfed Stealth Rock. I don't plan on nerfing it further.

- Hidden Power: This move can eather be special of physical, depending on your sets of IVs, increasing the versatility of this move. (We may as well fix the power if it's necessary)

No. That there are differences between Physical and Special attacks is intentional.

- Perma Weather Nerf: The weather summoned with your ability lasts until five turns after the summoner has switched out (8 turns with rock attached).

This is the SECOND time you've suggested something I've already done. At this point, I'm pretty sure you haven't even read the NEXT readme at all.

Please don't give an inherent ability of summoning permaweather with the move to anything where it doesn't make sense on (I'm looking at Phione, Probopass and Cryogonall)!

Yes, because Politoed and Ninetales make so much sense as weather summoners. :|

NARFNra already pointed out why Phione and Cryogonal make sense. Probopass was just the best sand-themed pokemon I could think of.

- Levitators: Many things that float on the ground get "lv" next to their typing, meaning they are levitating and therefore to ground (hence "intrisics"). Anything that has levitate upon tranferring gains another ability.

This is the THIRD time you've suggested something I've already done.

Other things should gain "lv" as well, such as Froslass, Glalie, Dusknoir and Mew. (Speaking of wich, I would love to replace some abilities, and I think GF will do this at some point, as they can't keep coming with retarded ways of creating ability slots)

I think I've said this before, but I don't plan on giving levitation to anything that doesn't already have Levitate.

- Type machup change: We have to watch out not overdoing it, but I guess everybody can agree that Ice should resist Grass! -Type change: The only type change that really needs to happen is Zoroark becoming Dark/Psychic.

I've already explicitly said that I will not make any type chart changes, and the manifesto itself explicitly says "No typing changes".

..I'm five items down the list, and most of these things are either things I've already changed or things I've explicitly said I won't change.

I'm just going to stop right here because it's ridiculously obvious you haven't read anything about what NEXT is about.

 

[NARFNra]

Vital Throw has significantly worse distribution than Bulk Up (in fact, nothing in OU gets it), so it's okay for it to completely outclass Bulk Up.

My current idea, though, is actually:

70 base power, -3 priority.

If you're not hit by an attacking move this turn, +2 Atk and breaks through Protect/Detect.

Hmm, interesting. It's not as risky as Focus Punch due to being able to still do damage if you aren't hit(assuming I'm reading it correctly and the last part is the only conditional section), but at the same time rewards you for being able to use it correctly and would theoretically work quite well with Sub. In return, it's not as strong by far. However, being able to break through protection is always nice.

I like that idea.

 

[Spica]

I'll figure out some way to nerf Excadrill and bring it down if you want an offensive spinner, too.

Thinking about this, the fact that Excadrill has 3 good to decent abilities (as opposed to one distinctive one that could be targeted like Justified) and makes use of fairly common moves (rendering awkward anything like the Volcarona Quiver Dance solution) really leaves only the option of enhancing its counters. Here are a few ideas along those lines:

• Salt Spray
This new ability for water types would activate on switch-in (parallel to intimidate) to afflict any steel type on the field with a one-sided perish song. This prevents a SD sweep by Excadrill, targeting it as a Steel type setup sweeper. The flavour is of course related to corrosion.

• Fouling
This ability for water types would make steel types move last within their priority bracket while the pokémon is active. This deals with Sand Rush capably. The flavour is related to barnacles and other marine life that accumulate on metal surfaces of ships and slow them down.

• Iron Sand
A hold item that allows the Electric moves of Electric types to hit ground type pokémon and gives those Electric moves +1 priority during a sandstorm. Magnezone would be the most obvious user.

Not meaning to sound importunate, but any comment on the overlapping status condition proposal?

 

[PureQuestion]

I don't know that I'd agree; Sand Rush is the ability that makes Excadrill broken. nerfing that would probably do a pretty damn good job keeping it manageable.

Nerfing the weather speed boosts in general might be wise, given the similar Drizzle+Swiftswim ban...

Dropping Sand Rush/Swift Swim/Chlorophyll(Chlorophyll basically purely for consistency) would probably make them significantly more manageable and could probably allow Excadrill to come down from ubers and the drizzle + swift swim ban to go away. Honestly, they're already heavily nerfed, considering weather is no longer permanent.

 

[Chaoswalker]

Nerfing the weather speed boosts in general might be wise, given the similar Drizzle+Swiftswim ban...

Changing it to a 1.5x or even 1.3x boost might make these abilities less fearsome, but still useful.
Speeds of top users:
50%: Excadrill at 132, Kingdra at 127, Venusaur at 120
40%: Excadril at 123, Kingdra at 119, Venusaur at 112
30%: Excadrill at 114, Kingdra at 110.5, Venusaur at 104

It may be a case by case matter. Chlorophyll may not even need the de-buff.

 

[Zarel]

Thinking about this, the fact that Excadrill has 3 good to decent abilities (as opposed to one distinctive one that could be targeted like Justified) and makes use of fairly common moves (rendering awkward anything like the Volcarona Quiver Dance solution) really leaves only the option of enhancing its counters. Here are a few ideas along those lines:

As others have mentioned, Sand Rush is what makes it Uber. Nerfing it down to 1.5x makes it outsped by a lot of fast scarfers, such as scarf Terrakion.

It's unclear if this is necessary, since currently Castform/Probopass are the only sources of permasand, and sand otherwise receives relatively few weather-related buffs.

 

[grrgrrgrr1000]

Zarel, I DID read the README (doesn't mean I know it by heart), otherwise I wouldn't know about these three, along with Cherrim and Castform being permaweather inducers (by moves).
The SR thing I said is an alternatetive to your idea, doesn't mean I don't know yours. (sure, the 1/4-on-flying-but-1/8-on-anything-else is also interesting).
Same goes to permaweather inducing ability nerf (even though my idea is hardly any different to yours; the only difference is that it won't white out if the user is on the field).
On the third "already changed" thing, I referred to your idea by saying "hence intrinsics". (I was only specifying it).
Also, in the readme, you said "no typing changes without strong justification", which is something different form "no typing changes" (You have probably changed it thoughout the forum, but I don't remember everything). Personally, I find Psychic really a typing belonging to Zoroark, since Zoroark uses psychic power and confuses people by making illusions. (it is competetively a mixed bag, since it gives him a double weakness to bug, but it eleminates his Fighting weakness).

 

[NARFNra]

Zarel, I DID read the README (doesn't mean I know it by heart), otherwise I wouldn't know about these three, along with Cherrim and Castform being permaweather inducers (by moves).
The SR thing I said is an alternatetive to your idea, doesn't mean I don't know yours. (sure, the 1/4-on-flying-but-1/8-on-anything-else is also interesting).
Same goes to permaweather inducing ability nerf (even though my idea is hardly any different to yours; the only difference is that it won't white out if the user is on the field).
On the third "already changed" thing, I referred to your idea by saying "hence intrinsics". (I was only specifying it).
Also, in the readme, you said "no typing changes without strong justification", which is something different form "no typing changes" (You have probably changed it thoughout the forum, but I don't remember everything). Personally, I find Psychic really a typing belonging to Zoroark, since Zoroark uses psychic power and confuses people by making illusions. (it is competetively a mixed bag, since it gives him a double weakness to bug, but it eleminates his Fighting weakness).

Yes, but strong justification =/= You could see it.

Or should we make Fire/Dragon Charizard and Water/Dragon Gyarados because they look like dragons and Lance uses them? You can't just make a change like that without severe justificiation, and "changing his weaknesses" and "it fits him" doesn't work at all when Game Freak made him a Dark pokemon in the first place.

Also: Zoroark can't even learn the move Psychic, but stuff like Ariados and Venomoth can. The only damaging Psychic move he gets is Extrasensory, which is an egg move, and everything else is a non-damaging move with wide distribution. It just doesn't make much sense.

 

[Zarel]

My idea of "strong justification" isn't "because it makes more sense", I mean specifically a change that doesn't constitute Game Freak "changing their mind". Ever since gen 2, Game Freak has never done anything that constitutes "changing their mind" with regards to stats, typing, type chart, and abilities. The only typing change is Rotom formes: formes that previously were the same type but are now different types. But they didn't change their mind on what the base forme should be.

So strong justification is something like making Cherrim-Sunny to be Grass/Fire, which isn't "changing their mind" because the base form is still pure Grass.

This is what it means for NEXT to be a "conservative" mod, because it flat-out refuses to change anything that Game Freak wouldn't.

 

[grrgrrgrr1000]

I'm sorry, but GameFreak has proven to be completely unpredictable and not to care about seemingly estabilished patterns time and again in the past, so why on earth would you justify this mod's changes or lack of based on assumptions that could be thrown out of the window at any time?

Things like Flareon and Flare Blitz as well as more ways to get rid of entry hazards is something that the community wants to happen, not something that GF has any obligations in giving us. In their mind, Flare Blitz Flareon could be just as illogical as Overheat Cryogonal. We don't know if it's the case and we have no way to prove otherwise.

Meanwhile they gave us completely unexpected things like Drizzle Politoed and Drought Ninetales.
These two definitely qualify as something "GF would never do" if we were still in Gen 4... yet it happened.

I'm not saying this mod is bad, mind you, in fact it's by far the best one I've seen, but I just don't see why you would base your choices on developers who seemingly make half of their decisions regarding gameplay balance while they're on drugs.

THIS. Anyway, let's review the criteria:

1. no base stat changes
   How much I'd like to see some, it's safe to say that this one is true.
2. no removing from movepool
   This all depends on whether or not it's possible to transfer. Even then, it's not entirely true (not all Tauros can learn Body Slam, for instance). Also, if HMs have to be forgotten, Surf Pikachu has to be rereleased over and over.
3. no removing from ability distribution
   While that has been true so far, GF really has to do this at some point. Otherwise some mons might eventually have like 50 ability slots, which would be absurd. Or they will get an evolution, just for a new ability (already happened once: I'm looking at Rhyperior). Also, many non-Hoenn pokes where somewhat neglected during the first ability distribution: most of the grass types got Chlorophyl, the Rock types got Sturdy/Rock Head (both of which where useless by then), and the electrics got Static (only Jolteon got Volt Absorb), and the legendaries got Pressure. The DWA distribution also wasn't that great on some mons (the Regis should have gotten Analytic, for instance). What I'm trying to say is that GF should replace abilities at some point, and I believe they will (or they will modify the mechanics around it).
4. no typing changes without strong justification
   With Magneton and Roton-A in mind, I think it's safe to say that type changes are plausible to occur on 'mons that are introduced last generation, but otherwise not.
5. only numbers that make sense like 60%, 30%, etc, not weird numbers like 65%
   This simply doesn't fit to the criteria, sorry. It's always most likely for a move to simply not change at all, keeping the accuracy at the same, possibly weard number (look at Fire Blast, for instance).
6. no buffing OU mons, except maybe tiny buffs to mons at the bottom of OU
   It's a good measurement in this project, but I honestly think that the people of GF hardly even take a look at the tier list. Also, Tyranitar, which was OU in G/S, did get a major buff in Adv in getting Sand Stream.
7. no doing things that make zero sense flavor-wise
   Sure.

Now, let's take a look on things that are just as unlikely, i not, even more unlikely:


Drives will change Genesect's typing immediately after switch-in, to Bug/Ice, Bug/Fire, Bug/Electric, or Bug/Water (basically, it will change Genesect's type, except Genesect will still take neutral damage from SR). However, Download will not activate unless Genesect holds a Drive.
I know this is based af Rotom-A's change, but when looking at the sprites of these forms (which have no difference besides the color of the drive pugged in), I think this is just way to unlikely, and it hardly makes sense as well. The other changes around it make it even more unlikely (the SR thing was also redundant to say with your nerf of SR in mind). My already proposed change was that drives shouldn't take an item slot (as they replace the pink colored drive in the regular form), and that the forms are nothing but a mere gimmick (although the blue one has a slight edge in having a techno blast that isn't outclassed).



Recharge moves are similarly buffed. They have 75 base power, always crit, and they only recharge if they KO. Be careful - in return for a KO, they still give the foe a free switch-in and a turn to set up.
Wait, wasn't hyper beam a move that is supposed to look extremely powerful in the first glace? (i.e. before looking at the flavor text). Also, re\"introducing an inverse version of an RBY glitch (that also hardly makes sense) is also unlikely. My already proposed change was introducing the ability to switch during the recharge turn (it is already possible in-game, when they ask something like do you want to switch), and to buff the legendary's signature move RoT. What I'm trying to say is that this move doesn't have to that great, but shouldn't loose it's own gimmick potential and steal another move's gimmick (looking at Storm Trow/Fire Blast).

Ice Body has 30% chance of freezing a contact move (and grants passive healing out of Hail, too)
WTF?

Also, the changes to the charge moves are unlikely as well. I find it kinda unlogical for the weaker ones to autocrit (plus, overdoing autocrits is somewhat lame to me). I had the following changes in mind:

-Fly: Rather than making them more powerful themselves, I want to introduce the following gimmick (also quite unlikely to happen, but that holds for every change): When you are in the sky, you can use a few other moves next turns, instead of returning to the ground. This comes to a prize: every move that does hit you, does double dammage (not sure about that). And the list of these kind of moves is extended by Blizzard, Swift, Water Spout, Eruption, Draco Meteor, Explosion and Fly itself (and maybe some others). Also, you can't switch out in the sky, and you can't use this move behind a Sub.
-Dig/Dive: Similar mechanics there, although I'm not exactely sure how to nail them.
-Sky Attack: When the user is "cloaked in harsh light", the target looses accuracy by 1 stage. The power and side effects stay (high crit rate, flinch rate). However, this move breaks through Protect/Detect/Substitute, and also gains a chance of dropping defense (as said in the Readme).
-Freeze Shock: The power should be boosted to 180. In addition to the 30% paralysis rate, it should also gain a 30% freeze rate. Also breaks through protect/detect/sub.
-Ice Burn: selfexplanatory.
-Solarbeam: I don't like the healing thing, sorry. The only think I'd like to change is that it should be no longer messed up further by other weather.
-Sky Drop: this move doesn't really give the target a free turn, so I don't see why it should be changed (maybe power boost to 75).

The other changes are decent to me, aside from power drop and the autocrit.

Some other suggestions:
-PP swap between Protect and Detect
-Withdraw being a Detect clone
-Magma Armor raising both defenses by 1 stage after being hit by a Fire move (GenNext's change is a little complicated, but cool nontheless). Also, freezing shouldn't occur to Fire types in general.
-Meditate raising Atk but also Sdef, as many mind based moves raise Sdef.
-Mud Sport halves the power of electric moves against the entire team for the next 5 turns, and prevents them form causing paralysis as well (similar to Water Sport).
-Solar power boosts both offenses under sun.
-Stench should (as an entire overhaul) cause any incoming target that isn't Poison or Steel to loose 1/16 of the health upon switching in when the bearer is on the field.

 

[Zarel]

I'm sorry, but GameFreak has proven to be completely unpredictable and not to care about seemingly estabilished patterns time and again in the past, so why on earth would you justify this mod's changes or lack of based on assumptions that could be thrown out of the window at any time?

You're right. My guesses are nothing more than guesses.

Fortunately, there's no reason my guesses need to be accurate. They're just a good way to put my foot down against a certain class of commonly proposed change.

For instance, stats changes: everyone has their own idea of how they would change stats, and allowing stats changes opens the doors for a huge number of arguments about precisely just what each stat should be. Also, preserving stats means that you can look up the stats of any NEXT mon on any pokedex, and your intuitions about speed tiers carry over from other gens.

It's very subjective, but the idea has always been for NEXT to feel like a next gen, and preserving old stats/movepools is I think the most important reason for that feeling.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

NARFNra already pointed out why Phione and Cryogonal make sense. Probopass was just the best sand-themed pokemon I could think of.

Well, there's also Flygon. It could go with any Sand ability, in fact.

 

[Chaoswalker]

Well, there's also Flygon. It could go with any Sand ability, in fact.

<3

An fast offensive weather inducer is an interesting thought. (I've never played Ubers, so I have no idea what Kyogre/Groudon are like.) Pop in to kick up the storm, and u-turn out.

 

[Zarel]

Well, there's also Flygon. It could go with any Sand ability, in fact.

Not a bad idea, but as you've noticed, I think permanent weather is a bit too powerful of a tool to give to any Pokemon higher than NU. Even Politoed and Ninetales were NU before they got their respective abilities, and they were responsible for making weather the centralizing force it is in gen 5.

I might give Flygon Sand Force, though. I sort of want to give it Arena Trap, but that will probably make it overpowered. :(

 

[Stratos]

Well, to be fair, Tyranitar was already OU when it got Sand Stream, and it didn't get a boot to Uber, but that was back in Gen III

still sandstorm is a pretty neutral weather and with the overall sand nerf i think we could do it

BUT WHAT I REALLY WANT TO SEE IS TINTED LENS FLYGON

ITS EYES ARE TINTED LENSES

 

[Arcticblast]

As much as I want Tinted Lens Flygon too, giving Tinted Lens to a Dragon-type is... problematic. Maybe it would be okay considering how Flygon has no boosting moves, but...

 

[apt-get]

I'm still okay with the other proposition: stay with compoundeyes on Flygon, but give it dragon rush/other inaccurate powerful physical moves and Dragon Dance. Gives it something over the other dragons that are way more powerful with a nice typing, decent attack and speed and a move nearly as powerful as outrage but without locking yourself.

 

[Chaoswalker]

I'm still okay with the other proposition: stay with compoundeyes on Flygon, but give it dragon rush/other inaccurate powerful physical moves and Dragon Dance.

It would be nice if Flygon didn't function largely like the other dragons though. Also his access to U-turn is very attractive, but doesn't work with boosting moves.

 

[tehy]

I say that you just give flygon Sand Force and DD, it's got everything else it need at that point. Earthquake/Outrage/Fire Punch for a DD set;Stone Edge has no good coverage but a sweet Sand Force boost. And of course it's still got U-turn and Fire Blast.

Alternately, give it SD and sand rush, but that sounds brutally broken, even with Ice Shard existing.

 

[rolen120]

Clear body got the buff of not affecting self inducing stat drops, but what about white smoke? i believe that was talked about but it never got added in. although shell smash torkoal with overheat might end up being too much

 

[sonicfan7895]

Clear body got the buff of not affecting self inducing stat drops, but what about white smoke? i believe that was talked about but it never got added in. although shell smash torkoal with overheat might end up being too much

Clear Body gets a buff of not lowering stats even on itself?

Ohmigawsh! Now three certain Clear Body users can use Curse and not give a crap whether or not its Speed is affected. Or Close Combat users can not give a crap whether or not their defenses are more frail.

 

[grrgrrgrr1000]

Clear body got the buff of not affecting self inducing stat drops, but what about white smoke? i believe that was talked about but it never got added in. although shell smash torkoal with overheat might end up being too much

Nah, I don't think Shell Smash with overheat is going to much, given that Torkoal's speed is beyond retarded. I honestly find, as I suggested before, that the white smoke should last three turns after the bearer switched out, meaning the entire team gets the protection against stat drops during these turns. Might seem much, but the bearers are NU since their introduction, and outstalling these turns shouldn't be that hard.

 

[rolen120]

I am wondering what the deal with blaziken will be, because it gained reckless and the life orb beef with it, but is still not usable because its an uber. will it drop?

 

[thesynchrohero]

Well, to be fair, Tyranitar was already OU when it got Sand Stream, and it didn't get a boot to Uber, but that was back in Gen III

still sandstorm is a pretty neutral weather and with the overall sand nerf i think we could do it

BUT WHAT I REALLY WANT TO SEE IS TINTED LENS FLYGON

ITS EYES ARE TINTED LENSES

Flygon is basically wearing goggles, and is actually glaring at you because you think it has tinted lenses for eyes.

 

[rolen120]

how about a shell bell beef. turn it into 1/4 or something like that. or a 1.1 damage boost with the 1/8 healing. doesn't work against pokemon with soundproof? extra boost with hyper voice and sound based moves? this could get interesting...

Edit: ha! #151, im mew now :D