Just remember you need a bug gem to guarantee an OHKO on all gastrodons, and I think with defense investments you have a small chance to OHKO with insect plate. I dunno how often gastrodon run DEF in doubles though.
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General Doubles Metagame Thread
- Thread starter Pocket
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Just remember you need a bug gem to guarantee an OHKO on all gastrodons, and I think with defense investments you have a small chance to OHKO with insect plate. I dunno how often gastrodon run DEF in doubles though.
Braverius' ranking list would be a very good starting point if we made one (not perfect, but that's why we discuss different Pokemon's rankings).
Braverius' list is a good starting point, and I would agree his first four would be S-rank in our metagame. However, since the reference to the BH viability ranking was brought up, it kinda makes me wonder: would we want to rank pokemon on their individual merits, pokemon pairs, or overall strategies involving said pokemon, like the BH thread does their rankings? It seems a bit silly to define the pokemon in isolation since they'll always be paired with another, but then again the pokemon itself is the only reliable constant, and some truly are better than others.
Wait a sec, shouldn't that fail? I faced a team that employed that same tactic a few days ago and Entrainment failed when Shedinja used it. The page for Entrainment even says that it fails if the user has Wonder Guard.
Barring the iffy accuracy for some of this moves I've got to say the argument is worth my attention, I'll be testing some of these.
This is a good question. I really think it's based on how often they're seen work with other Pokemon, and how widespread their coverage is. I pretty much made the tiers as general as possible. Basically tier 1 is commonly used / totally viable, tier 2 is used / totally viable, tier 3 is rarely used / sometimes viable, tier 4 + 5 are just outclassed / bad Pokemon. Pretty simple, just need to see how things work over the long term. Having someone evaluate a mon on their team that I placed too high or too low on the tier list helps guide testing and stuff so we can get a better feel for how it does.
Rank Pokemon individually but take into consideration the Pokemon's pairings with other Pokemon (for example, consider the Guard Split Shuckle + Chansey combination and other combinations when deciding on Shuckle's ranking, as opposed to Shuckle by itself). The thread would be mess if we included separate rankings for a Pokemon by itself and the same Pokemon with another teammate.
Indeed. Given all this, perhaps the most consistent way to to do the ranking at the moment would simply rank pokemon individually, and in their ranking detail what kinds of pokemon they work well with and how effective they are at being those sorts of partners; so for example, S-Rank pokemon would be pokemon that can reliably provide good support no matter what kind of team they're on (Hitmontop, Cress) or fit on certain teams but make them incredibly good (Politoed).
It is a bit subjective and arbitrary I know, but I figure it would be best to start with the pokemon with the most internal reliability and versatility (in terms of pairing with others) and begin weening them down until we reach pokemon that are outclassed at roles pokemon above do (i.e. Kingdra would be a better swift swim abuser than Seismitoad), need more and more specific support just to function (i.e. every Slaking ever), or are just bad (i.e. too many examples from ladder to list). There will of course be some grey areas (is a pokemon that can only pair with one or two others but absolutely wrecks when it's with those pokemon higher, lower, or the same rank as a pokemon that can be stuck on a lot of teams but is sorta meh?) but community discussion and contribution would eventually sort it out. If we were going to do anything about specific strategies and pairings and stuff I think that would probably best fall under a different viability ranking thread, so as to prevent clutter and confusion. We could figure out how to properly incorporate the two later--that is, if people are up for that idea.
Besides that, we'd need to figure out how we'd define our rankings. Looking at the Viability Rankings thread over in the OU section, we can get a good idea of where to start but there's obviously a lot of stuff we need to change:
..okay. Since it's apparent that everyone will want their "favorites" moved up until nothing exists in any rank below C, I'm going to try to introduce some objectivity into these proceedings.
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks.
D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are simply not very effective in the current metagame.
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks.
D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are simply not very effective in the current metagame.
Now the obvious problem with adopting these definitions is that nothing in doubles is going to sweep teams by itself, and you're pretty much SOL if you even think about walling a bunch of shit (yes Cress is an annoying prick but she does more than just sit there sponging hits). Maybe something more appropriate for our purposes would focus less on sweeping and walling, especially by itself, but more on general offensive presence and team support? I was gonna type up a possible list as well as my rationale for S-Rank pokes but I am too tired.
I think the 'free turns' concept would be important in doubles ranking. There is also level of utility(scoring KOs, supporting the team), how it matches up in the metagame(Fighting types have to be ranked with Hitmontop and Conkeldurr usually being a better choice in mind. Pokemon weak to spread moves get ranked lower.) and finally longevity.
Hitmontop creates a bunch of free turns with Intimidate making physical attackers want to switch, the threat of Fight Gem Close Combat forcing in their fighting-resist, Wide Guard removing the threat of powerful spread moves and Fake Out doing some damage AND stopping an opponent from attacking. Its bulk also lets it stick around or force the opponent to double target it(similar to Cresselia). For example, it survives an uninvested Psycho Boost from Deoxys-S 90% of the time.
Gastrodon would fall into 'favorable match ups'. Cresselia would be 'versatility'. Politoed is 'utility(support)'+'free turns'. Kyurem-B would be 'utility(KO potential)'.
Also, they all have a high amount of longevity due to their bulk. Whereas Sableye has longevity due to its typing and Prankster Recover.
I think the rankings would be best using those qualifiers that I listed at the beginning of the post.
Hitmontop creates a bunch of free turns with Intimidate making physical attackers want to switch, the threat of Fight Gem Close Combat forcing in their fighting-resist, Wide Guard removing the threat of powerful spread moves and Fake Out doing some damage AND stopping an opponent from attacking. Its bulk also lets it stick around or force the opponent to double target it(similar to Cresselia). For example, it survives an uninvested Psycho Boost from Deoxys-S 90% of the time.
Gastrodon would fall into 'favorable match ups'. Cresselia would be 'versatility'. Politoed is 'utility(support)'+'free turns'. Kyurem-B would be 'utility(KO potential)'.
Also, they all have a high amount of longevity due to their bulk. Whereas Sableye has longevity due to its typing and Prankster Recover.
I think the rankings would be best using those qualifiers that I listed at the beginning of the post.
I think Pokemon should be ranked in a similar way to BH, considering their strategies and how they work with others. I'd admit t's not an easy thing to do :/
Another thing I'd like is to have Doubles analyses. How about having non-official ones linked in the OP so people can know how to play this meta better?
Another thing I'd like is to have Doubles analyses. How about having non-official ones linked in the OP so people can know how to play this meta better?
I didn't think about free turns. That would probably be a large factor yes.
As for analyses, I'd love to see some. I've literally just been using VGC stuff (but would we have to change too many analyses?) and I really suck at doing EVs and such, so I don't know how much I could help aside from proofreading, but I'd be willing to do what I could.
As for analyses, I'd love to see some. I've literally just been using VGC stuff (but would we have to change too many analyses?) and I really suck at doing EVs and such, so I don't know how much I could help aside from proofreading, but I'd be willing to do what I could.
actually it's pretty good in doubles, you can even build teams around sky drop. but game freak sucks and didnt even remove the bug :(
This was recently fixed on Pokemon Showdown, as it works that way in the games.
Actually, on closer examination, i think I have to disagree with this statement. Hitmontop and Conkeldurr are very good pokemon, but this statement seems to imply that the two of them are typically best at fulfilling any role of a fighting type, and I think that's just not the case. For starters, both are rather slow; the first has priority to help out its middling speed but Conkeldurr can't rely soley on mach punch, regulating it primariy to TR teams. That already gives fast fighting types an advantage over them and the ability to fulfill niches they cannot--Hitmontop, the faster of the two, is primarily support as opposed to straight offense anyway from what I've seen.
Secondly, both of them really suck at taking down ghosts--Payback and Sucker Punch are pretty shitty for getting the job done. This gives Scrafty a nice niche in being able to provide intimidate and fake out support but also being able to threaten slow ghosts and psychics often appearing on TR teams--being immune to psychic and resistant to ghost also helps. And we can't forget Toxicroak's usefulness for rain teams.
Granted, I'm not sure about the roles of some other fighting types, such as Lucario or Mienshao or Infernape or Breloom, but I figure they could at least have something going for them.
Just today I was thinking about a supportish version of Hariyama, which has a superior bulk when compared with Hitmontop minus Intimidate, but it is true that 'Top has most of the tools to work as an incredibly solid support. Specially bulky/Thick Fat Hariyama resists common spread moves such as Rock Slide, Blizzard and Heat Wave, making it a decent niche.
If you use it on a fast pokemon like Aerodactyl it's essentially a virtual Fake Out that lets you choose your matchup for the current turn, sort of mixed with Protect. Under optimal conditions its a move that can work as both Protect and Fake Out, but without the limitations of either of those, it's obviously a pretty versatile move in the game and it will be awesome to have it back on Gen VI doubles :)
Seems like I underestimated, Chandelure - It can be quite dastardly with proper support. Its immunity to not only Fire- but also Fighting- moves can make it quite a bitch to handle. It's among the best user of Sub + Protect moveset, imo, since a Chandelure with Substitute cannot be shot down by super effective Sucker Punches. Not to mention Chandelure behind a Sub is one of the scariest thing to face x0
It's biggest pro is how it manhandles Cresselia. It's not particularly bothered by Cresselia's weak Ice Beam / Icy Wind or even STAB Psyshock, whereas Ghost Gem Shadow Ball 2HKOs all but the most specially-defensive Cresselia, and through Sitrus Berry, too.
Good partners for Chandelure would obviously be mons that can quickly dispatch Heatran. Sheer Force Landorus and Hitmontop are particularly great for this. EQ users like Garchomp are actually less optimal for the task, since it would kill Chandelure in the process - Landorus and Hitmontop can focus-fire their STAB solely on Heatran with 0 repercussion to its ghastly partner. I've even seen HP Ground Lati@s used for such purposes. Hitmontop is particularly a useful partner, since it can block EQ and Rock Slide with Wide Guard and even allow Chandelure to OHKO most Cresselia with Helping Hand support combined with Ghost Gem-boosted Shadow Ball!
After seeing the wrath of Chandelure, I will never underestimate it again ;x It certainly holds some advantages over Heatran by virtue of its Ghost-typing.
It's biggest pro is how it manhandles Cresselia. It's not particularly bothered by Cresselia's weak Ice Beam / Icy Wind or even STAB Psyshock, whereas Ghost Gem Shadow Ball 2HKOs all but the most specially-defensive Cresselia, and through Sitrus Berry, too.
Good partners for Chandelure would obviously be mons that can quickly dispatch Heatran. Sheer Force Landorus and Hitmontop are particularly great for this. EQ users like Garchomp are actually less optimal for the task, since it would kill Chandelure in the process - Landorus and Hitmontop can focus-fire their STAB solely on Heatran with 0 repercussion to its ghastly partner. I've even seen HP Ground Lati@s used for such purposes. Hitmontop is particularly a useful partner, since it can block EQ and Rock Slide with Wide Guard and even allow Chandelure to OHKO most Cresselia with Helping Hand support combined with Ghost Gem-boosted Shadow Ball!
After seeing the wrath of Chandelure, I will never underestimate it again ;x It certainly holds some advantages over Heatran by virtue of its Ghost-typing.
I will agree, Chandy is an offensive monster. Really it's only held back by how easily it dies but its typing lets it murder a helluva lot of things, and unlike some of the other frail powerful mons that underwhelming (such as Skymin and Deo-A I'm really sorry guys) its immunity to fake out makes it a total fucking hassle to handle. I wonder if it'll see more use once it gets shadow tag...
On some unrelated notes, I've been dicking around on the ladder a lot more lately. As much as I love love love my trick room team (any team where i get to use Slowking, Scrafty, and Latias and they all kick ass is a team I adore) I've been messing around with some other strategies. The first would be a sand team--it's pretty sloppily put together (Ttar/Lando-T/Skymin/Excadrill/Gastrodon/Musharna) but fun to play.
Excadrill, as predicted, is a monster in sand. It's not unmanageable, but it really puts the hurt on things. Conversely, Gastrodon is indispensable for sand teams, as storm drain is way too good and about the only thing keeping rain teams from slaughtering you, especially shit like Kingdra.
Skymin is mostly there to kill stuff like opposing politoed and gastrodon but it's kinda...well, I mean it's not /bad/ but it doesn't kill enough stuff fast enough, and it really can't abuse Serene Grace like it can in singles, which is a let down. Not to mention Fake Out is the worst. I dunno. Maybe I'll refine it later. Also, min speed Ttar is more or less required, it seems, to win the weather war.
The second team I threw together today is a discharge-abusing team; as predicted, it sucks but is fun to use. It's got your standard Thund-T and Manectric and shit. I've been using a Garchomp on it since an electric immunity is way better than a resist, and so far it's doing alright. For some reason, base 102 speed seems like a letdown, which is weird since there are so many good mons with less speed, but eh. A lot of faster stuff can kill it easy, like Thundurus and the Latis and stuff, which is really annoying. However, in spite of this, he does actually put the hurt on stuff. I've been running a set with Outrage after messing around with Pwnemon's CB Cube and even though it's unpredictable Outrage is very nice for cleaning up late game--won a few games simply because I saved Garchomp for last and plowed through whatever they had left. Needs more usage IMO.
Probably the funniest member to play on this team, though, is lightningrod seaking. It's gimmicky as all hell but rather fun to use. I've been using an agility sweeping set I had used against me to distressingly great effect a few days ago; typically, I agility while its partner uses Discharge to boost its sp.atk, and hopefully it goes from there. It also gets Soak, which is very nice for messing up enemies that try to abuse electric immunities or resists to avoid Discharge. In fact, Soak is just an awesome move and I'm not sure if I'm sad or thankful it doesn't have more distribution. Like I said, gimmicky as all hell and gets manhandled by gastrodon and stuff but fun to use.
Last thing, but I've come to appreciate Musharna more. In most ways it's an inferior Cresselia, but it does have a few neat tricks, mainly being able to Imprison Trick Room. I've been using it on these two teams to keep trick room teams from rolling over me. Also, Telepathy is a pretty cool ability and makes it easier to fit on teams, since you can block surf and discharge and earthquake and explosion and even lava plume (why are you using lava plume). Really wish this ability had better distribution.
Also charizard sucks stop using it people seriously.
On some unrelated notes, I've been dicking around on the ladder a lot more lately. As much as I love love love my trick room team (any team where i get to use Slowking, Scrafty, and Latias and they all kick ass is a team I adore) I've been messing around with some other strategies. The first would be a sand team--it's pretty sloppily put together (Ttar/Lando-T/Skymin/Excadrill/Gastrodon/Musharna) but fun to play.
Excadrill, as predicted, is a monster in sand. It's not unmanageable, but it really puts the hurt on things. Conversely, Gastrodon is indispensable for sand teams, as storm drain is way too good and about the only thing keeping rain teams from slaughtering you, especially shit like Kingdra.
Skymin is mostly there to kill stuff like opposing politoed and gastrodon but it's kinda...well, I mean it's not /bad/ but it doesn't kill enough stuff fast enough, and it really can't abuse Serene Grace like it can in singles, which is a let down. Not to mention Fake Out is the worst. I dunno. Maybe I'll refine it later. Also, min speed Ttar is more or less required, it seems, to win the weather war.
The second team I threw together today is a discharge-abusing team; as predicted, it sucks but is fun to use. It's got your standard Thund-T and Manectric and shit. I've been using a Garchomp on it since an electric immunity is way better than a resist, and so far it's doing alright. For some reason, base 102 speed seems like a letdown, which is weird since there are so many good mons with less speed, but eh. A lot of faster stuff can kill it easy, like Thundurus and the Latis and stuff, which is really annoying. However, in spite of this, he does actually put the hurt on stuff. I've been running a set with Outrage after messing around with Pwnemon's CB Cube and even though it's unpredictable Outrage is very nice for cleaning up late game--won a few games simply because I saved Garchomp for last and plowed through whatever they had left. Needs more usage IMO.
Probably the funniest member to play on this team, though, is lightningrod seaking. It's gimmicky as all hell but rather fun to use. I've been using an agility sweeping set I had used against me to distressingly great effect a few days ago; typically, I agility while its partner uses Discharge to boost its sp.atk, and hopefully it goes from there. It also gets Soak, which is very nice for messing up enemies that try to abuse electric immunities or resists to avoid Discharge. In fact, Soak is just an awesome move and I'm not sure if I'm sad or thankful it doesn't have more distribution. Like I said, gimmicky as all hell and gets manhandled by gastrodon and stuff but fun to use.
Last thing, but I've come to appreciate Musharna more. In most ways it's an inferior Cresselia, but it does have a few neat tricks, mainly being able to Imprison Trick Room. I've been using it on these two teams to keep trick room teams from rolling over me. Also, Telepathy is a pretty cool ability and makes it easier to fit on teams, since you can block surf and discharge and earthquake and explosion and even lava plume (why are you using lava plume). Really wish this ability had better distribution.
Also charizard sucks stop using it people seriously.
I tried a SoakNinja team in the early days of Doubles on PS!; unfortunately, Water is still weak to Electric- and Grass-type moves, two very common moves in Doubles thanks to the abundance of Rain teams, Sun teams, and Discharge-spamming Manectric, Jolteon, Zapdos and co.
I could foresee Soak being useful, though; after all, I did write about it in my Smog article n_n ! Soak + Bolt Strike could be interesting, allowing you to take out key threats within a turn (probably) no matter what their typing is. Maybe I should test this! :o
I could foresee Soak being useful, though; after all, I did write about it in my Smog article n_n ! Soak + Bolt Strike could be interesting, allowing you to take out key threats within a turn (probably) no matter what their typing is. Maybe I should test this! :o
however, the question is which Soak user do you use it with? The fastest one is Basculin with a pretty meh base speed of 98. I mean if Floatzel got this shit it'd be different, but it just doesn't seem like a reliable strategy, as fun as it is. The only reason I could pull it off with Seaking was because I could get agilities in.
has anybody else tried out landorus therian? It has the strongest earthquake and a very powerful rock slide, making it a solid candidate for a powerful physical attacker. It can U-turn against cresselia and most importantly, it has intimidate. Intimidate plus landorus-therian's natural bulk is pretty much enough to neuter and physical attacker barring weavile, mamoswine, and water types.
I have been experimenting with landorus-t/tyranitar/slowking/garchomp/shaymin-s/chandelure. The idea is to spread paralysis with slowking and tyranitar and then hit hard with everything else, with shaymin abusing serene grace. With paralysis and air slash hax, there is only a 30% chance of breaking through. I am pretty new to this, so I don't have any very good spreads/sets. All my mons have protect except for garchomp, who is subSD (sand veil!). What would good "standard" sets be and does landorus have any merit over hitmontop? Three 4x ice weaknesses sucks a lot. I have also considered heatran over chandelure and I guess I am pretty undecided.
Also just throwing it out there but a viability ranking thread would be awesome.
I have been experimenting with landorus-t/tyranitar/slowking/garchomp/shaymin-s/chandelure. The idea is to spread paralysis with slowking and tyranitar and then hit hard with everything else, with shaymin abusing serene grace. With paralysis and air slash hax, there is only a 30% chance of breaking through. I am pretty new to this, so I don't have any very good spreads/sets. All my mons have protect except for garchomp, who is subSD (sand veil!). What would good "standard" sets be and does landorus have any merit over hitmontop? Three 4x ice weaknesses sucks a lot. I have also considered heatran over chandelure and I guess I am pretty undecided.
Also just throwing it out there but a viability ranking thread would be awesome.
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