Balanced Hackmons Viability Rankings Thread

[bobbyfissure]

I really appreciate your enthusiasm and thanks for the signature compliment! I think you missed some sarcasm though... When Shedinja uses Magic Guard it loses Sturdy, the ability that makes it viable in the first place. Magic Guard Shed is OHKOd by nearly every attack in the game.

I was joking XD

anyways, belly drum aqua jet can ohko rhydon with an adamant nature after rocks, even if it has a defensive nature

 

[hyperbeem]

Updated OP with BDES in B and Simple (Tail Glow and SS combined) in C. Slashed Aqua Jet on BDES.

 

[Varfor]

No strategies atm are as gamechanging as imposter, so inless theres a significant shift in the metagame i dont foresee anything joining imposter anytime soon. We should probably include a note in the op saying that just because imposter is s tier does not mean it is one of the best strategies in the game, merely that it has had the profoundest impact on the meta.

I don't think that we want to be describing S rank sets as sets that "define the metagame". Instead of asking ourselves whether there any other sets that are as gamechanging as Imposter, we should decide why Imposter is so gamechanging and decide if there are any other sets that fall under the category regardless of how gamechanging they are.

From what I can see Imposter Chansey is so successful because it requires very little support to acomplish its job, it consistantly checks a large portion of the offensive pokemon in the metagame, it is able to turn supportive sets' strategies against them and its few flaws, such as its predictability, are mitigated by its versitality and its aforementioned strengths.

From this, we can derive that an S rank set should:

1. Require little or no support to accomplish its goals
2. Be able to sweep, wall or check a large part of the metagame, or provide support to its teammates with little or no opportunity cost
3. Have few flaws that prevent it from consistently accomplishing its goals.

 

[Magcargo]

I must ask. Have deoxys-s and sleeping moves been banned? If not, the i suggest this set to be added to the A-Rank.

Pokemon @ Lum Berry
Trait: Mold Breaker / Prankster / Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Stealth Rock
- Shadow Ball / Spikes
- Rapid Spin / Magic Coat

(Deoxys-S)

This set is one of the best leads in balanced hackmons and it is often a game of rock paper scissors which lead wins. Magic bounce beats prankster, mold breaker beats magic bounce and prankster beats mold breaker.

If this set is banned, then this post should be deleted.

 

[Varfor]

No, Deoxys-S and sleeping moves have not been banned, though I have already nominated a Mold Breaker Spore set for A rank (it hasn't been added to the OP yet).

 

[bobbyfissure]

I don't think that we want to be describing S rank sets as sets that "define the metagame". Instead of asking ourselves whether there any other sets that are as gamechanging as Imposter, we should decide why Imposter is so gamechanging and decide if there are any other sets that fall under the category regardless of how gamechanging they are.

From what I can see Imposter Chansey is so successful because it requires very little support to acomplish its job, it consistantly checks a large portion of the offensive pokemon in the metagame, it is able to turn supportive sets' strategies against them and its few flaws, such as its predictability, are mitigated by its versitality and its aforementioned strengths.

From this, we can derive that an S rank set should:

1. Require little or no support to accomplish its goals
2. Be able to sweep, wall or check a large part of the metagame, or provide support to its teammates with little or no opportunity cost
3. Have few flaws that prevent it from consistently accomplishing its goals.

I agree with this.

In that case, quite a few things in A should be in S.
Magic bounce could probably work for S

 

[Varfor]

I agree with this.

In that case, quite a few things in A should be in S.
Magic bounce could probably work for S

I think that a magic bounce set could certainly have the potential to be in S rank, however the magic bounce set in the OP still doesn't really fit the description. While it doesn't require much support and only has a few flaws that prevent it from doing its job such as Mold Breaker pokemon that ignore Magic Bounce and other magic bounce pokemon that prevent it from setting up hazards, it provides too many opportunities for its opponent, as there isn't much it can do to prevent the opposing pokemon from doing what it wants, as even phasing can only stop setup pokemon.

 

[Redless]

I think that a magic bounce set could certainly have the potential to be in S rank, however the magic bounce set in the OP still doesn't really fit the description.

Back on page one I had a MB set that no one commented on, a pivot. It's still there as far as I know, so maybe we should look into that.

 

[Varfor]

Back on page one I had a MB set that no one commented on, a pivot. It's still there as far as I know, so maybe we should look into that.

I had been thinking about that set earlier, it fits well under the criteria from my other post.

1. Requires little or no support to accomplish its goals
The only support this set really needs is Rapid Spin support for existing hazards due to the constant switching and it is mainly only necessary for Giratina, who does not like Toxic Spikes and takes neutral damage from the other hazards, while the other pokemon suggested are immune to poison and resist Stealth Rock.

2. Is able to sweep, wall or check a large part of the metagame, or provides support to its teammates with little or no opportunity cost
The set easily fulfils its roles as a supportive pokemon designed to block status moves and hazards (and Rapid Spin in the case of Giratina) with little opportunity cost, as you can maintain momentum with U-Turn/Volt Switch/Baton Pass.

3. Has few flaws that prevent it from consistently accomplishing its goals.
Mold Breaker spore is the obvious flaw, as well as the fact that Ground Types block Volt switch, but other than that, the flaws really just depend on the pokemon's weaknesses.

If I may make a couple suggestions to further improve the set, I think that you might want to run minimum speed so that you will almost always be able to see what your opponent does before choosing which pokemon to switch to, and I also think that you should put an offensive move in slot 3 for Dialga and Escavalier so that they can have an offensive presence as well. I think that Draco Meteor and Gyro Ball would be best, as they both have great power and coverage (and the stat drop from DM is negated by switching out).

 

[devoninja]

The idea that anything "requires little support" in balanced hackmons is silly. High tier BH battles basically become an elaborate dance of strategies and counter strategies, with each team trying to get some advantage over the other. There are so many potential threats that every member of the team is critically important to avoid being swept or overwhelmed. No one poke can handle the entire enemy team but often removing even one of your opponents pokes gives you the ability to take his whole team down.

Essentially, I think there's no S-Rank (except maybe imposter which truly exists in a place of its own) because the crux of BH teambuilding is being able to handle any kind of threat which is a job that must be shared among at least 4 pokes.

 

[Varfor]

While I agree with you that no one pokemon can handle everything that Balanced Hackmons has to throw at it, I do not think that this means that all pokemon need a large amount of support.

A pokemon such as Redless's Magic Bounce Pivot does not require that every threat to it has been eliminated before it switches in. Its job is to block status moves at minimum cost to its team and it really does not require much support to do so. It plays very well in the "elaborate dance of strategies and counter strategies" as it can switch in on a pokemon that does not threaten it and U-turn/Volt Switch/Baton Pass to escape whatever counter they switch to, letting you keep one step ahead of your opponent.

I am not saying that there are definite sets that should be S rank, I just think that we should put more thought into what an S rank set in Balanced Hackmons should be so that we can decide if there are any other sets that merit S rank.

 

[Arcticblast]

The thing about a Magic Bounce wall/pivot/whatever is that while it's definitely great to have, it's not something you normally consider when building a team. Things like Contrary, Prankster Rhydon (if you're running a sweeper), and especially Imposter are the things you keep in mind, whereas you probably won't pay too much attention to packing a check to Magic Bounce. It's not even always something you totally dedicate a slot to - you'll be thinking "Hey, I need a wall, how about Magic Bounce ___?", not "Hey, I need a Magic Bounce user more than anything else in the world right now."

Also, a lot of the Pokemon that Magic Bounce works against commonly carry phazing moves or Mold Breaker.

 

[Varfor]

The thing about a Magic Bounce wall/pivot/whatever is that while it's definitely great to have, it's not something you normally consider when building a team. Things like Contrary, Prankster Rhydon (if you're running a sweeper), and especially Imposter are the things you keep in mind, whereas you probably won't pay too much attention to packing a check to Magic Bounce. It's not even always something you totally dedicate a slot to - you'll be thinking "Hey, I need a wall, how about Magic Bounce ___?", not "Hey, I need a Magic Bounce user more than anything else in the world right now."

Also, a lot of the Pokemon that Magic Bounce works against commonly carry phazing moves or Mold Breaker.

Considering that without Magic Bounce there is very little you can do against Prankster Copycat + Whirlwind and Prankster Spore, and that Magic Bounce is the best way to deal with entry hazards, it is certainly something that should always be taken into consideration when team-building. Even if you'd prefer to use Magic Guard/Poison heal + Toxic Orb to protect from Mold Breaker spore as well, you still should have a pokemon with Magic Bounce to deal with hazard layers and whirlwind.

While it is true that according to the February usage stats 29% of Deoxys-S have Mold Breaker, these are generally used as leads and rarely survive until late game so they should not be too much of a problem for Magic Bounce pokemon.

 

[Redless]

If I may make a couple suggestions to further improve the set, I think that you might want to run minimum speed so that you will almost always be able to see what your opponent does before choosing which pokemon to switch to, and I also think that you should put an offensive move in slot 3 for Dialga and Escavalier so that they can have an offensive presence as well. I think that Draco Meteor and Gyro Ball would be best, as they both have great power and coverage (and the stat drop from DM is negated by switching out).

Done.
Also, something to keep in mind is that these Pokemon can use other support moves as filler. Against bulky support Pokemon that are often used to set up hazards or that prankster spore obstructing a sweep, there is often no better switchin than a magic bounce Pokemon. Having the ability to conserve momentum by power switching back out is always useful. These Pokemon, much like imposter, have flaws that are used specifically to counter them, like stuff packing substitute to deal with imposter, most mold breaker users are doing so with magic bounce in mind. IMO, this should be S rank, because of how it effects the metagame and its general utility, whether we judge it on Varfor's criterion or Hyperbeem's. But before we continue, which criterion are we using to determine S rank? I've seen a lot of support for Varfor's, but Hyperbeem's is the one currently in place. Should we change it?

Either way I see Magic Bounce pivot being S rank. If you don't, please explain why.

 

[Frog]

Nominating Arena Trap + Set Up for B rank
Pokemon @ Leftovers
Trait: Arena Trap
252 HP/252 Def/252 SpA/252 SpD/252 Spe
Timid Nature
-Substitute/Encore
-Quiver Dance
-Dragon Pulse/Shadow Ball
-Flamethrower/Aura Sphere

Evil. Trap something that doesn't really attack and set up forever. Or something locked into the wrong move. Basically shadow tag but not quite as good unfortunately. Escavalier really sucks with flash fire, but aura sphere can break through. Substitute blocks status and such and lets you beat imposter blissey, if you are a giratina. Encore is a much better way of ensuring your sweep due to u turn but imposter blissey sucks. It also prevents phazing Speed is really essential to this set, so gengar can work.

Also Sand Stream for B rank

Pokemon@Lum Berry/Eviolite
Trait: Sand Stream
252 HP/252 Atk/252 Def/252 SpD/252 Spe
Impish Nature
-Stealth Rock
-Dragon Tail/Whirlwind
-Milk Drink
-Magic Coat/Filler

There are a lot of options for a sand inducer, but types rock because of SpD boost. Regirock is disgustingly bulky, but rhydon and others can work too. One I want to test is shuckle.

 

[Arcticblast]

Shadow Tag and Arena Trap are banned from Balanced Hackmons.

 

[Frog]

then shouldn't that be in the OP?

I have played some BH, but not very much. I am so sorry I'm not as good as you.

 

[Arcticblast]

If you had read any of the original Balanced Hackmons thread or played Balanced Hackmons at all, you would have known.

 

[Imanalt]

Considering that without Magic Bounce there is very little you can do against Prankster Copycat + Whirlwind and Prankster Spore, and that Magic Bounce is the best way to deal with entry hazards, it is certainly something that should always be taken into consideration when team-building. Even if you'd prefer to use Magic Guard/Poison heal + Toxic Orb to protect from Mold Breaker spore as well, you still should have a pokemon with Magic Bounce to deal with hazard layers and whirlwind.

While it is true that according to the February usage stats 29% of Deoxys-S have Mold Breaker, these are generally used as leads and rarely survive until late game so they should not be too much of a problem for Magic Bounce pokemon.

I believe (and he should correct me if i'm wrong) that he meant that it is not something you need to consider how to beat with every single team. Just because it fills a niche that is essentially irreplacable for every team does not mean it has an enormous effect on what is used in the tier, the way imposter does

 

[Varfor]

I believe (and he should correct me if i'm wrong) that he meant that it is not something you need to consider how to beat with every single team. Just because it fills a niche that is essentially irreplacable for every team does not mean it has an enormous effect on what is used in the tier, the way imposter does

Oh, okay. I thought that he meant that Magic Bounce isn't something that is generally worth putting on a team; his post didn't seem quite clear to me, but thanks for clearing that up.

In regards to that point, I don't think that we should judge S rank pokemon solely on how they affect the metagame, but instead on their effectiveness at accomplishing their job.

Edit: I thought I should add that a set's effect on its tier actually hinders its viability considering that people will be more prepared for it.

 

[Arcticblast]

1. I never said Magic Bounce wasn't worth putting on a team, I just said Magic Bounce itself isn't something you normally consider on a team (more often than not, a few users of Magic Coat will suffice).

2. "Effectiveness at accomplishing their job" doesn't really cut it here. We're ranking things by their sets, and ranking the Pokemon by set (open a hide tag in the OP, they're listed in order of best to least), so theoretically all of these sets accomplish their job.

3. Everybody and their mother is prepared for Imposter in Balanced Hackmons, and that doesn't make it any less game-changing.

 

[Varfor]

1. I never said Magic Bounce wasn't worth putting on a team, I just said Magic Bounce itself isn't something you normally consider on a team (more often than not, a few users of Magic Coat will suffice).

My apologies for the confusion.

2. "Effectiveness at accomplishing their job" doesn't really cut it here. We're ranking things by their sets, and ranking the Pokemon by set (open a hide tag in the OP, they're listed in order of best to least), so theoretically all of these sets accomplish their job.

"Effectiveness at accomplishing their job" is everything. You say that you are ranking things by their sets, but how are you ranking them? From what I can see you are ranking them at the moment by how well they do in the metagame, which is fine for a start, but what we really need to find out is why these sets are doing well in the metagame. If we decide why one set does better than another, it makes it much easier to classify sets, especially those which have not seen as much use, as well as making it easier to come up with new, more effective sets.

That is why I proposed these three criteria for classifying S rank sets (the criteria are in no particular order).
The first and third criteria require that a set is able to easily and consistantly accomplish its goals, and the second criterion requires that its goal is useful enough to merit S rank. If you do not think these criteria are entirely correct, please say so.

An S rank set:

1. Requires little or no support to accomplish its goals
2. Is able to sweep, wall or check a large part of the metagame, or provides support to its teammates with little or no opportunity cost
3. Has few flaws that prevent it from consistently accomplishing its goals.

Yes Imposter is very game-changing, yet it is the fact that it fits these criteria that makes it game-changing.

3. Everybody and their mother is prepared for Imposter in Balanced Hackmons, and that doesn't make it any less game-changing.

It is the fact that Imposter is so effective that allows it to work so well even when everyone is prepared for it. I am just trying to make the point that a sets effect on the tier is not the only thing that makes a set viable in said tier. I also thought it worth noting that its effect can actually hinder its performance (you have to admit that if no-one thought about how to check their own pokemon, it would be much easier for Imposter to beat opposing teams).

 

[hyperbeem]

Updated OP with a couple Mold Breaker sets in B, thanks Imanalt!

 

[Aeongate]

You have Unaware wall on there, but have you considered bulky Unaware sweeper? I'd like to nominate it for RankA/B - I'll leave the discretion on that to the OP.

@ Lum Berry
Trait: Unaware
- Quiver Dance
- Cotton Guard
- Dragon Pulse/Ice Beam
- Recover/any equivalent

Users: Arceus is the best, however many bulky 'mons with decent offences can run this set.

You will beat any Contrary/set-up sweeper (aside from Skill Swap Gengar), and should the opponent switch in an Imposter, you can easily PP stall them. The set fails however against status and phasing, so it is very much a late-game sweeper, or just a counter to Belly Drum Illusion Slaking. One could sacrifice Cotton Guard for Magic Coat to deal with status/phasing, but this puts you at risk of loosing to a powerful physical sweeper like Slaking instead.

 

[pCUBED]

Ill nominate anti-Imposter for B/C-rank. I see a lot of Imposter Blissey and I find that it's often not too much trouble to have an Imposter counter. I'm thinking C for being semi-devoted to a single purpose, or B just because the ability and most moves are fairly irrelevant to the Imposter matchup.

The basic idea is to give a Pokemon a held item which the impostor wont have. The best items for this purpose are Soul Dew with Latias/Latios or Plates with Judgement. These sets take up the item and one move slot for each of these mons, leaving the rest to be devoted to spinning, Aromatherapy, hazards, Coat, anti-Shedinja moves, or whatever else you want.

B/C
Counter Imposter

Hide

Latias (F) @ Soul Dew
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
- Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor
- Filler
- Filler
- Filler

Latios (M) @ Soul Dew
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
- Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor
- Filler
- Filler
- Filler

NOTE: Latias and Latios are not the best for this role, as Blissey gets a x2 Pulse/Meteor on them, while they get a x2.5. using ghosts for x2/x0 or neutral mons for x2/x1 is often better,

Giratina @ Draco Plate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
- Judgement
- Filler
- Filler
- Filler

Giratina-Origin @ Draco Plate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
- Judgement
- Filler
- Filler
- Filler

Arceus-Ghost @ Dread Plate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
- Judgement
- Filler
- Filler
- Filler

This list is by no means comprehensive. This is a very large category, and can be used fairly viably on most mons.