Ubers CCAT 3 - Skies are Clear

[blitzlefan]

Just passing through, I tend to follow these CCAT, but Shadow Force /does/ break through Protect.

Oh wow you're right... crap Arceus-Ghost (in theory) is annoying! Ugh... we need a good Steel type, let's consider Dialga! Focus Blast sucks anyway, and we can take advantage of moves like that anyway if opposing Arceus-Ghost runs that. Dialga resists Ghost moves and can phaze them out if they have boosts.

 

[Haruno]

Oh wow you're right... crap Arceus-Ghost (in theory) is annoying! Ugh... we need a good Steel type, let's consider Dialga! Focus Blast sucks anyway, and we can take advantage of moves like that anyway if opposing Arceus-Ghost runs that. Dialga resists Ghost moves and can phaze them out if they have boosts.

Relying on focus blast missing is even more risky than relying on it hitting........ Dialga is a shaky check at best since it's guaranteed ohko'd with it's standard 252/200 SpD set by a +1 focus blast after spikes and sr damage.

 

[blitzlefan]

Relying on focus blast missing is even more risky than relying on it hitting........ Dialga is a shaky check at best since it's guaranteed ohko'd with it's standard 252/200 SpD set by a +1 focus blast after spikes and sr damage.

This is untrue. Even with Stealth Rock and three layers of Spikes (which I highly doubt will happen), Dialga only has a 25% chance of being OHKO'd by +1 Focus Blast. Which then Dialga can either Roar and phaze out all of its boosts or smack it with Draco Meteor. And seriously, we're taking Arceus-Ghost WAY TOO SERIOUSLY. We're treating it as if it is the end-all, be-all, of every Pokemon we can conjure up. Yes, Ghost/Fighting has perfect neutral coverage, but stop treating it like as soon as the opponent reveals it, we should pack our bags and go home. If you guys really want to get stuck on this and not accept any way around Arceus-Ghost, like (oh no they have a 25% chance to OHKO after they're at +1 and have set up SR and 3 layers of Spikes), then we might as well give up now. Either take an offensive check like Darkrai (which is kind of frail but has access to Dark Void), a defensive check like Dialga (who can come in on Ghost moves and phaze it out), or a really defensive check like Skarmory/Forretress/Ferrothorn (which basically completely stops all sets w/o Flamethrower, but kills momentum), and call it a day. Arceus-Ghost is on a good fraction of teams (~15%), but it's not the god everybody seems to think it is. OR, even better, we run the same thing and sweep everything on the ladder. Lastly, I'm running out of ideas, but what about Ho-oh then? It can phaze it out and takes basically nothing from Arceus-Ghost's moves. However, this will require careful play with Deoxys-S to ensure Stealth Rock isn't on our side of the field, or perhaps a spinner.

 

[jackm]

Alright, in the interest of expediting this process, I'm going to say that submissions will be closed in 30 hours! It's a weird time interval but it's the only one that works with my schedule.

On the topic of getting past Arceus-Ghost, I think that we need to focus on beating CM variants; SD variants are less common than Reshiram, and it's not like you see Reshiram every day. Blitzlefan, I encourage you to submit an Sdef Dialga set; despite what some people say, it's definitely one of our more viable ways of checking Arceus-Ghost. In the interest of maintaining the focus of the discussion right now, I'm going to withdraw my submission of CM Arceus-Ghost for now; it'll be better off in a future vote.

 

[blitzlefan]

Dialga @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 48 SAtk / 200 SDef / 8 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Roar
- Thunder Wave

I'm going to nominate Defensive Dialga for the next member of our team. Dialga should be able to check Arceus-Ghost, as it resists Judgment and is only 2HKOd by a +1 Focus Blast, while Dialga can slam in with Draco Meteor and/or phaze it out. Dialga also typically has the upper hand against Dragon-types, especially scarfed versions (that have less power) which will prove to be a nuisance. Draco Meteor deals heavy damage to all targets, while Fire Blast deals with Steel types, especially Ferrothorn and Forretress. Dialga functions as a phazer with Roar to deal with set-up sweepers, and helps to rack up residual damage through the entry hazards provided by Deoxys-S. Thunder Wave also cripples the opposing team, and our team members, especially Latios, will benefit greatly from the support.

All right, let's get posting! :)

 

[IAmAnHero]

I think that the Dialga set would really benefit our team and we should definitely use it. I <3 Dialga with Thunder Wave so much.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

I quite like Dialga. May I know the purpose of the EV spread?

 

[blitzlefan]

From the analysis:
The given EVs ensure that Dialga is not 2HKOed by Palkia's Lustrous Orb-boosted Spacial Rend or by non-Choice Specs Kyogre's full-power Water Spout. The Special Attack EVs and Modest nature allow Dialga to OHKO Darkrai with Draco Meteor. (These are the HP, SpA, and SpD EVs.) Lastly, I added a bit of Speed creep obviously to beat out uninvested/4 Spe EV base 90s.

Edit: I meant after Stealth Rock; Dialga has a guaranteed OHKO on Darkrai with Draco Meteor after Stealth Rock. And anyway, I'm assuming Stealth Rock is in play because a lot of Darkrai carry Focus Sash and something has to break it anyway.

 

[lousy918]

Dialga doesn't OHKO Darkrai?

56SpAtk Dialga (+SAtk) Draco Meteor vs 4HP/0SpDef Darkrai (Neutral): 95% - 112% (268 - 316 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 70% chance to OHKO.

252SpAtk Kyogre (+SAtk) Water Spout in Rain vs 252HP/200SpDef Leftovers Dialga (Neutral): 45% - 53% (185 - 218 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 3% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.

palkia cannot ko though

EDIT: After SR, dialga has a 12% chance to get 2hkoed by scarfogre

 

[lousy918]

NOTE: This is not a troll like Smashpass Dialga was.

Mandibuzz @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Taunt
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Toxic

Although this may seem similar to Skarmory in terms of movepool, there are several differences; Skarmory has higher physical bulk but with a much lower special bulk. Although Skarmory gets Spikes, we already have Spikes support from Deoxys-S. With heavy investment in SDef, Mandibuzz can effectively wall and kill Ghostceus with Toxic. SubCM sets lack recovery and can be Whirlwinded out with ease, something the pink blobs cannot claim to do.

Against CM Ghostceus:

252SpAtk Spooky Plate +1 Multitype Arceus (Neutral) Focus Blast vs 248HP/252SpDef Leftovers Mandibuzz (+SpDef): 32% - 38% (138 - 163 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

252SpAtk Spooky Plate +1 Multitype Arceus (Neutral) Judgment vs 248HP/84SpDef Leftovers Ho-Oh (Neutral): 43% - 51% (180 - 213 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

252SpAtk Spooky Plate +1 Multitype Arceus (Neutral) Focus Blast vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Sturdy Skarmory (Neutral): 54% - 64% (183 - 216 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

As you can see, even after SR, Mandibuzz can survive 2 +1 Focus Blasts (assuming they both hit) from fully offensive Arceus-Ghost. Ho-Oh, however, stands a chance to get OHKOed, or guaranteed 2HKO unless it spams Roost and did not die on the first turn. Skarmory's negligible SDef means that even when fully invested (standard runs Impish), it is still guaranteed to be 2HKOed after SR, even factoring in Leftovers.

Against SD Ghostceus:

252Atk Spooky Plate +2 Multitype Arceus (+Atk) Brick Break vs 248HP/8Def Leftovers Mandibuzz (Neutral): 38% - 45% (162 - 191 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

252Atk Spooky Plate +2 Multitype Arceus (+Atk) Shadow Force vs 248HP/8Def Leftovers Mandibuzz (Neutral): 54% - 64% (231 - 273 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

252Atk Spooky Plate +2 Multitype Arceus (+Atk) Shadow Claw vs 248HP/252Def Leftovers Ho-Oh (+Def): 53% - 62% (220 - 259 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Against SD Ghostceus, the most reliable counter is Skarmory, which takes next to nothing from anything the God of Pokemon can throw at it. Mandibuzz comes up next, taking less than 50% damage from Brick Break and being able to Roost it off, while Shadow Force is not only rare, its charge-up turn allows Mandibuzz to Roost freely. Shadow Force also has a meagre 8 PP, allowing Mandibuzz to stall it out before using Toxic. Ho-Oh is OHKOed after SR even with a physically defensive spread.

Overall Mandibuzz is the most reliable counter to Ghostceus, taking on CM variants better than the other two after SR, while being able to take SD versions too.

Overcoat > Big Pecks as only defense dropping move in Ubers is Crunch, by Ttar who summons sandstorm, so I would prefer not having my Leftovers negated by sand

Taunt prevents spikers from setting up on me, whirlwind prevents sweepers from doing the same, roost is for recovery and toxic is to stall pokemon to death. Taunt sets it apart from shit like Lugia and Giratina, which are set-up bait for spikers herp derp.

I have nothing better to do

*eye am a stupid durian*

*the ugly bird inside an iron case*

*kacaw mother - uhh, you didn't hear that*

tbh I would rather run skarmory though

As a bonus this pokemon is innovative, as is Skarmory

Lastly, I want to say that beating Ghostceus is not its only role, its very usable bulk and access to Taunt allow it to fulfil multiple roles. E.g. it can check Darkrai, Darkceus and Deoxys-A as well.

 

[Haruno]

NOTE: This is not a troll like Smashpass Dialga was.

Mandibuzz @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Taunt
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Toxic

Although this may seem similar to Skarmory in terms of movepool, there are several differences; Skarmory has higher physical bulk but with a much lower special bulk. Although Skarmory gets Spikes, we already have Spikes support from Deoxys-S. With heavy investment in SDef, Mandibuzz can effectively wall and kill Ghostceus with Toxic. SubCM sets lack recovery and can be Whirlwinded out with ease, something the pink blobs cannot claim to do.

Against CM Ghostceus:

252SpAtk Spooky Plate +1 Multitype Arceus (Neutral) Focus Blast vs 248HP/252SpDef Leftovers Mandibuzz (+SpDef): 32% - 38% (138 - 163 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

252SpAtk Spooky Plate +1 Multitype Arceus (Neutral) Judgment vs 248HP/84SpDef Leftovers Ho-Oh (Neutral): 43% - 51% (180 - 213 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

252SpAtk Spooky Plate +1 Multitype Arceus (Neutral) Focus Blast vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Sturdy Skarmory (Neutral): 54% - 64% (183 - 216 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

As you can see, even after SR, Mandibuzz can survive 2 +1 Focus Blasts (assuming they both hit) from fully offensive Arceus-Ghost. Ho-Oh, however, stands a chance to get OHKOed, or guaranteed 2HKO unless it spams Roost and did not die on the first turn. Skarmory's negligible SDef means that even when fully invested (standard runs Impish), it is still guaranteed to be 2HKOed after SR, even factoring in Leftovers.

Against SD Ghostceus:

252Atk Spooky Plate +2 Multitype Arceus (+Atk) Brick Break vs 248HP/8Def Leftovers Mandibuzz (Neutral): 38% - 45% (162 - 191 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

252Atk Spooky Plate +2 Multitype Arceus (+Atk) Shadow Force vs 248HP/8Def Leftovers Mandibuzz (Neutral): 54% - 64% (231 - 273 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

252Atk Spooky Plate +2 Multitype Arceus (+Atk) Shadow Claw vs 248HP/252Def Leftovers Ho-Oh (+Def): 53% - 62% (220 - 259 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Against SD Ghostceus, the most reliable counter is Skarmory, which takes next to nothing from anything the God of Pokemon can throw at it. Mandibuzz comes up next, taking less than 50% damage from Brick Break and being able to Roost it off, while Shadow Force is not only rare, its charge-up turn allows Mandibuzz to Roost freely. Shadow Force also has a meagre 8 PP, allowing Mandibuzz to stall it out before using Toxic. Ho-Oh is OHKOed after SR even with a physically defensive spread.

Overall Mandibuzz is the most reliable counter to Ghostceus, taking on CM variants better than the other two after SR, while being able to take SD versions too.

Overcoat > Big Pecks as only defense dropping move in Ubers is Crunch, by Ttar who summons sandstorm, so I would prefer not having my Leftovers negated by sand

Taunt prevents spikers from setting up on me, whirlwind prevents sweepers from doing the same, roost is for recovery and toxic is to stall pokemon to death

tbh I would rather run skarmory though

As a bonus this pokemon is innovative, as is Skarmory

Lastly, I want to say that beating Ghostceus is not its only role, its very usable bulk and access to Taunt allow it to fulfil multiple roles. E.g. it can check Darkrai, Darkceus and Deoxys-A as well.

I liked mandibuzz and sableye alot during that research week. Despite first appearances they can be surprisingly useful. Count my vote towards mandibuzz. A vote for mandibuzz is a vote towards freedom!

 

[MMII]

Lol, sorry for my last post that was supposed to go into bug reports. IDK how that ended up there.

Mandibuzz is a really cool niche mon that I would totally give more time to consider IF we weren't running a hazards HO team. :/ I like it a lot but it's just going to throw away momentum and I feel it's over-preparing for Ghostceus.

Our best options for Ghostceus ATM are Darkrai and Ho-Oh. (Ho-Oh only helps with CM and, contrary to some popular belief in this thread only, functions very well in any weather) There are also Sucker Punch users like Bisharp and Honchkrow although the former is a bit prediction heavy. (the latter is actually pretty nice though and definitely worth consideration) Only problem with all of these (exception of Darkrai) is that they don't have very good synergy with Latios.

From a general perspective, I think getting worked up on a single threat like this isn't a good idea and we'll have to remember to build our team so that we accomplish our goal instead of constantly worrying about what can stop it from functioning. (which is silly to do right now as we don't even have our Core set up...) However, Ghostceus (CM that is) is actually a legitimate concern for offensive teams so it wouldn't be a waste to vote a check to him this round. (hint, hint Darkrai is the best choice here) Let's not forget about our core, though, we really need to get it put together.

 

[blitzlefan]

Regarding the Mandibuzz submission, I think we're worrying too much and overpreparing for Arceus-Ghost. Though it is innovative, it will be dead weight basically for 85% of matches (Arceus-Ghost is on 15% of teams). If you guys want it, you have to think about its overall viability rather than how innovative it is. If the two, viability vs. innovation even out though, I'd be fine with running it.

Originally Posted by Fat lousy918
Lastly, I want to say that beating Ghostceus is not its only role, its very usable bulk and access to Taunt allow it to fulfil multiple roles. E.g. it can check Darkrai, Darkceus and Deoxys-A as well.

Not trying to nitpick here, but Darkrai outspeeds and puts Mandibuzz to sleep, Arceus-Dark is probably beaten, but Deoxys-A simply hits it very hard with Thunder / Ice Beam.
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-A Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 257-304 (60.75 - 71.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-A Thunder vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 322-382 (76.12 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[jackm]

Once Sleep Clause is in effect, Mandibuzz easily phazes Darkrai. That's why it's a check, not a counter.

 

[Haruno]

Mandibuzz also stops Ho oh among some other things. I'd refer to the mandibuzz discussion during research week for more info though.

Edit: also blitzle using the x Pokemon is only on y% of uber teams is a terrible way of team building. Does this mean we ignore everything that isn't top 10 in uber usage? Obviously not.

 

[tehy]

How exactly does Mandibuzz stop Ho-oh? Especially on a weatherless team (hint:Sun boost), I don't see it taking 2 Sacred Fires, or even 2 Brave Birds, especially after SR.

No you don't ignore everything not in a certain percent. But you don't overprepare for it either. If you see a threat.... say, 75% of the time, a hard counter might be a good idea, even for an HO team. If you only see it 15% of the time, however, then you might be able to get by with a good check and a semi-good check/Revenge killer.

I'd also like to point out that mandibuzz is epic spinbait and we lack a spinblocker currently, and we have a Deoxys-S. If we don't fix that (And i've heard some people say we shouldn't), then Mandibuzz will basically just invalidate Deoxys-S existence. (Not entirely, but you see what I mean.)

I also highly doubt that Ho-oh will work well, seeing as we lack a spinner and a groudon. Theoretically it can succeed without both but it's going to be significantly worse, especially if the other team has a Kyogre.

Edit: Akuto I was pretty damn sure it could 2hko with either. And as far as I can tell those aren't even with LO, or max attack.

 

[akuto]

tehy u make a valid point but before u go claiming things go run damage calcs plz

 

[blitzlefan]

Mandibuzz also stops Ho oh among some other things. I'd refer to the mandibuzz discussion during research week for more info though.

Edit: also blitzle using the x Pokemon is only on y% of uber teams is a terrible way of team building. Does this mean we ignore everything that isn't top 10 in uber usage? Obviously not.

Well yeah, kind of. It's not overly common so we should be able to get by with a check instead of a full-blown counter like Mandibuzz. Are you going to find hard counters to every threat imaginable? Obviously not. Instead, we can afford to go with checks/revenge killers instead.

Also, jackm, the Sleep Clause argument requires that one of our team members is put to sleep, before we can just phaze them out, which really sucks. Which one of our more crucial team members do we want to put to sleep? Latios? Terrakion? This does bring up a problem though that we should discuss: how are we going to get around status on this team?

Lastly, akuto,
176+ Atk Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Mandibuzz in sun: 244-288 (57.68 - 68.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
176+ Atk Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Mandibuzz: 195-231 (46.09 - 54.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[lousy918]

Regarding the Mandibuzz submission, I think we're worrying too much and overpreparing for Arceus-Ghost. Though it is innovative, it will be dead weight basically for 85% of matches (Arceus-Ghost is on 15% of teams). If you guys want it, you have to think about its overall viability rather than how innovative it is. If the two, viability vs. innovation even out though, I'd be fine with running it.



Not trying to nitpick here, but Darkrai outspeeds and puts Mandibuzz to sleep, Arceus-Dark is probably beaten, but Deoxys-A simply hits it very hard with Thunder / Ice Beam.
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-A Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 257-304 (60.75 - 71.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-A Thunder vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 322-382 (76.12 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

I presume you understood I meant sash? sash doesn't carry either move and life orb is used on a quarter of deoxys-a, which has a usage of 8.57%, hence LO deoxys-a is super rare, rarer than ghostceus at over 10% usage

 

[blitzlefan]

Deoxys-A 9.67566%
Focus Sash 49.986%
Life Orb 35.975%

True, Deoxys-A won't be able to hurt Mandibuzz much, but I think this goes both ways. All Mandibuzz can do is Toxic it, which Deoxys-A doesn't particularly care about. Life Orb is pretty common, though Focus Sash is the variant I see more often. Lastly, if Deoxys-A is rare.... then shouldn't we just carry priority instead of going for a niche counter like Mandibuzz?

 

[Haruno]

I don't get how you can criticize our check/counters to certain mons when everything under rank 8 on usage is considered "uncommon" by your definition and thus not worth getting a check/counter for. That sort of mindset will fail in actual games.

 

[blitzlefan]

I think you don't understand what I'm saying... Dialga is a check for Arceus-Ghost. When you can check something, you are preparing for it. What I'm saying is that we don't need a hard counter for everything "under rank 8" because a check will suffice, like a priority user for Deoxys-A.

Edit:
@ below, Haruno, please, stop with the supposedly rhetorical questions, and start creating coherent arguments that actually have a point. I have no idea what you're talking about. Honestly, what the hell? Scarfed Heart Swap Manaphy is crap and I have no idea why you would bring it up. And for your information, no it can't check CM Arceus-Ghost. A check that is dead weight unless it checks one opposing team member is called a niche Pokemon. Similar to Gastrodon, Mandibuzz can only truly counter one Pokemon, and has only some merit outside of that role, in breaking stall, hence C or D rank at best. Beating Ferrothorn is one of its few other roles, but Ferrothorn isn't too much of a problem as the Pokemon we're building our team around (Latios) is in essence, a wall-breaker, Scarf Terrakion murders it with Close Combat (252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 308-366 (87.5 - 103.97%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock), and even Deoxys-S can shut it down with Taunt and/or Fire Punch. Seriously, make a real post composed of more than one or two lines of incomprehensible "arguments".

 

[Haruno]

A soft "check" that becomes deadweight after it has "successfully" checked whatever its supposed to check can't really be called a check right? With that logic scarfed heart swap manaphy can "check" cm ghostceus.

 

[tehy]

Blitzle I get what Haruno is saying but here's the thing:

You're absolutely right. With that logic Scarfed Heart swap manaphy Can check Ghost arceus. I'm going to ignore the part where it doesn't force it out and lets it set more Cms up because that's totally irrelevant. (Not sarcastic. That actually IS irrelevant.)

The difference? Dialga can actually do something else before Ghostceus starts wreaking havoc, and isn't mostly worthless in other situations. A check can be a once-only stop to a pokemon and still be a check. It's not the best check, but it is A check.

And that is a comprehensible argument. It's just an incorrect one.

The reason I'm pretending like ScarfSwap Manaphy checks Ghostceus is because attacking the weak link in your argument doesn't ACTUALLY invalidate it, it just looks like it does and pisses you off. I'm heading off that whole theoretical exchange right here, it is pointless and contributes nothing.

Oh and finally: Why not just post your own Ghostceus check? You're talking a lot of trash. Customarily, when you do so, you should have some... shall we say, game. The easiest way to resolve all this is to make a good suggestion, and then explain why it is better as a Ghostceus check than whatever we put up

 

[akuto]

I would post something helpful but honestly that would require me to know what the hell was going on. Never seen heartswap in ubers dont even know what it does so i'm guessing its a nono. We need to get back on topic. Blitz i like dialga but u act as if both boosting arceus verients don't carry a fighting type move. Sure u can twave than roar but u would take 2turns of super effective hits from +1//2 or u can roar and take 1 hit in which he can come back in later assuming he doesnt have status "since u did not para him" boost up and have u go back to square1. So it's a bit risky