Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[False Sense]

No.

252Atk Life Orb Reckless Mienshao (Neutral) Hi Jump Kick vs 252HP/232Def Sturdy Skarmory (+Def): 55% - 65% (186 - 219 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Interesting, so there's more than one possible way of playing Mienshao. I imagine Regenerator would usually be the preferable ability, but the sheer power of that Reckless Hi Jump Kick might be a viable alternative. I bet Choice Band sets could really just spam Hi Jump Kick and things would die. Really though, the fact that Mienshao can have this amount of firepower at it's disposal gives it another good reason to go to B-Rank, I think.

 

[G-Von]

Ok, after reading a bit on the Landorus suspect thread, I've been convinced that part of it's power really strives from great synergy with one of the better pokemon in the game. It is indeed, because of this tandem, that I'd like to propose Tyranitar for S-Rank.

Sure, Sandstorm is not as broken as Drizzle, but Tyranitar is certainly the better pokemon when compared to every other weather inducer, and it also happens to remove critical treats with it's ability to Pursuit-trap. The fact that it can check the only two reliable counters of one of the most offensive threats in the game right now, while setting up a weather, makes it's niche in the meta absolutely critical. Landorus is stated as S-rank, but Tyranitar is certainly also in the winning side of this tandem, and I believe that it can be enough to bump it up a rank.

Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

What's really messed up is that under support, it can really be classified as S-rank because of his role with supporting the likes of Keldeo and Landorus. Those three on a team make an incredibly hard offensive core to break. BandTar, SpecsKeldeo, and SF Landorus destroys anything thrown its way. Keldeo handles water and ice moves that lando would be weak to while t-tar traps the checks and counters to Keldeo and Landorus.

I must second it, Tyranitar for S-rank.

 

[zerohero]

And I third Mienshao for B-Rank.

Mienshao may look outclassed, but it's got some real good perks going for it. Firstly, it's offensive stats. 125 Attack, 95 Special Attack, and 105 Speed is very good, and allows Mienshao to wreck shop. The first cool thing is that 95 Special Attack is pretty good, so it can run Hidden Power Ice, which is a great perk to pose a threat to Landorus-T, Landorus-I, and Gliscor, so unlike the other Fighting-types, Mienshao can keep common counters at bay. Hi Jump Kick is really deadly, and coming off of 125 Attack, it's definitely gonna hurt. 105 Speed is really good and can get at Lando-I pretty well, not to mention it also outpaces Mence, which is good. Stone Edge is good too. Of course, the big ace in the hole for Mienshao is U-turn, and when paired with Regenerator, this thing can definitely keep up offensive momentum (RIP the days when I used this in conjunction with Genesect), and shrug off residual damage, and this also makes Mienshao a good fit on hail and sand teams because it kicks ass and has good synergy with Ttar/AbomaSTRONGTH. It may be frail and have trouble dealing with Ghost-types, but those are still outshined by the positive points. After all, there's a reason it got the S-Rank in UU. Mienshao should definitely be B-Rank, for it definitely fulfills a given offensive niche, and does it damn well.

Another discussion, but where should the speedy spiker Bugs that we all know of by the names of Accelgor and Scolipede be placed on the list? Perhaps D or C? Well, they are both good at spiking so they should at least be on the list.

I dont think meinshao should move up to b-rank imo. c-rank seems just right for the weasel. There are better and faster fighting types that are more useful. The only thing that
he has over the fighting types is regenator which is great ability and needs it since he is so frail. I feel like the common scarfer or anything in the 108 speed tier can ohko it. As for moves wise i feel like infernape could use the same move with equal sucess and a better mixed sweeper since most of the moves you mention he also have.

 

[False Sense]

Tyranitar doesn't support Keldeo in any way, shape or form. In fact, Sandstorm damage actually damages Keldeo.

They cover a few of each other's weaknesses? So do Jellicent and Ferrothorn, that doesn't mean they're S-rank worthy because of it.

In the support department, Tyranitar and Hippowdown are perfectly equal, so if Hippo isn't S-rank, Tyranitar isn't S-rank material either.

While I would rather not take sides in this Tyranitar debate, I felt like I should point out that Tyranitar is well known for being able to Pursuit trap almost all of Keldeo's counters, which makes them a lethal offensive duo. That's how Tyranitar supports Keldeo so well.

 

[G-Von]

Tyranitar doesn't support Keldeo in any way, shape or form. In fact, Sandstorm damage actually damages Keldeo.

They cover a few of each other's weaknesses? So do Jellicent and Ferrothorn, that doesn't mean they're S-rank worthy because of it.

In the support department, Tyranitar and Hippowdown are perfectly equal, so if Hippo isn't S-rank, Tyranitar isn't S-rank material either.

What are you talking about? Why are you trying to bring up Hippowdon when he is totally irrelevant to Keldeo and Landorus? Hippo does nothing good for either attacker. You don't understand, Hippo falls pathetically to Celebi and Latias, who needs to be gone for Landorus or Keldeo to sweep. Tyranitar traps them with Pursuit and kills them off easily without taking big damage from either one, even STAB Giga Drain from Celebi. Just because Tyranitar summons in sand doesn't mean that's the only way he can support.

 

[Ojama]

Tyranitar doesn't support Keldeo in any way, shape or form. In fact, Sandstorm damage actually damages Keldeo.

They cover a few of each other's weaknesses? So do Jellicent and Ferrothorn, that doesn't mean they're S-rank worthy because of it.

In the support department, Tyranitar and Hippowdown are perfectly equal, so if Hippo isn't S-rank, Tyranitar isn't S-rank material either.

How doesn't Tyranitar support Keldeo in any way ? Tyranitar removes all Keldeo's counters but indeed, it doesn't support it. What can handle Keldeo? Jellicent, Celebi, Tentacruel, Latias, Latios, Starmie, Amoonguss and maybe a few other ones. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Tyranitar kill 90% of this list? Keldeo + Tyranitar is one of the best cores of the game for your information.

 

[False Sense]

I dont think meinshao should move up to b-rank imo. c-rank seems just right for the weasel. There are better and faster fighting types that are more useful. The only thing that
he has over the fighting types is regenator which is great ability and needs it since he is so frail. I feel like the common scarfer or anything in the 108 speed tier can ohko it. As for moves wise i feel like infernape could use the same move with equal sucess and a better mixed sweeper since most of the moves you mention he also have.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

Personally I believe that Mienshao fits in here quite nicely. It fulfills an offensive niche as a U-turning Fighting type, something that only Infernape can also boast, but it doesn't have that amazing Regenerator ability. While something like Terrakion or Keldeo may oftentimes be more suitable for a team, keep in mind that those are both S-Rank pokemon, so they basically outperform everything, and Mienshao still has several unique qualities to distinguish itself from them. Partially outperformed, but still very dangerous is a very suitable way of describing Mienshao.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Look in all real honesty Mienshao is often more trouble than its worth. Sure it hits very hard and has great speed coupled with two great abilities, one of which prevents it from being worn down. But then you come to realize that his offensive movepool consists of not one but TWO unreliable moves (hi jump kick and stone edge), he is as frail as a zoroark and simply doenst do much that terrakion doesnt do already. All it truly has is u-turn and its superior abilities. Like seriously being reliant on bad-accuracy moves when youre frail is simply terrible. You can never be sure that it will fullfill its role because it might just miss a hi jump kick against blissey and suffer recoil plus giving your opponent a free switch. Its just too unreliable and frail. It honestly doesnt deserve B-Rank.

 

[False Sense]

Look in all real honesty Mienshao is often more trouble than its worth. Sure it hits very hard and has great speed coupled with two great abilities, one of which prevents it from being worn down. But then you come to realize that his offensive movepool consists of not one but TWO unreliable moves (hi jump kick and stone edge), he is as frail as a zoroark and simply doenst do much that terrakion doesnt do already. All it truly has is u-turn and its superior abilities. Like seriously being reliant on bad-accuracy moves when youre frail is simply terrible. You can never be sure that it will fullfill its role because it might just miss a hi jump kick against blissey and suffer recoil plus giving your opponent a free switch. Its just too unreliable and frail. It honestly doesnt deserve B-Rank.

Well, that's a valid point, except I think you're slightly over exaggerating the issue. Hi Hump Kick has a pretty solid 90% accuracy, so while it does miss from time to time, it's hardly any worse than the constantly-spammed Hydro Pumps we see all the time. Terrakion uses Stone Edge too, don't forget. On top of that, it often has HP Ice or U-Turn as more reliable options, so it's not completely luck based. But back to Hi Jump Kick, I think that the accuracy isn't that big of an issue. If it was, say, Focus Blast it was relying on, then we would have problems, but Hi Jump Kick WILL hit 90% of the time, and I don't think that's low enough to warrant it being held back.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Well, that's a valid point, except I think you're slightly over exaggerating the issue. Hi Hump Kick has a pretty solid 90% accuracy, so while it does miss from time to time, it's hardly any worse than the constantly-spammed Hydro Pumps we see all the time. Terrakion uses Stone Edge too, don't forget. On top of that, it often has HP Ice or U-Turn as more reliable options, so it's not completely luck based. But back to Hi Jump Kick, I think that the accuracy isn't that big of an issue. If it was, say, Focus Blast it was relying on, then we would have problems, but Hi Jump Kick WILL hit 90% of the time, and I don't think that's low enough to warrant it being held back.

Cause it makes you lose 50% health everytime you miss. Add life orb recoil into that and you see how unreliable mienshao really is.

 

[False Sense]

Cause it makes you lose 50% health everytime you miss. Add life orb recoil into that and you see how unreliable mienshao really is.

Don't forget that it can switch out at any time and regain a large portion of that health back.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Don't forget that it can switch out at any time and regain a large portion of that health back.

It loses 60% health by missing and recover 33% by switching. That adds up VERY quickly and not everyone uses regenerator.

 

[False Sense]

It loses 60% health by missing and recover 33% by switching. That adds up VERY quickly and not everyone uses regenerator.

50%; Life Orb isn't factored if it doesn't hit. And not everyone even uses Life Orb; Choice Scarf sets can easily come in after a Revenge Kill or slow U-Turn, do some damage and switch out. And again, Hi Jump Kick will more often than not hit; it really doesn't add up that quickly.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

50%; Life Orb isn't factored if it doesn't hit. And not everyone even uses Life Orb; Choice Scarf sets can easily come in after a Revenge Kill or slow U-Turn, do some damage and switch out. And again, Hi Jump Kick will more often than not hit; it really doesn't add up that quickly.

Why would you use choice scarf mienshao when terrakion exists?

 

[False Sense]

Why would you use choice scarf mienshao when terrakion exists?

...Because of all the reasons I posted earlier...?

Short summary: Access to a usable HP Ice lets it break through Dragons, Gliscor and Landorus-T easier, U-Turn lets it join in on VoltTurn cores, and Regenerator complements U-Turn by letting it virtually ignore residual damage.

 

[Gary]

Why are we only talking about Reckless Life Orb Mienshao here? Although Reckless LO Mienshao is a monster, I still feel that Mienshao's greatest advantage over common fighting types is its ability Regenerator, access to U-Turn, and being able to hit Gliscor and Landorus. Life Orb shouldn't really be used with Reckless IMO, because Mienshao will wear down way to fast, and pretty much any sort of hit will knock it out. If you're going to use Reckless Mienshao in OU, I would only use its Choice Band set. It hits extremely hard, and doesn't take extra unneeded recoil. Other then that, Mienshao should always be using Regenerator to compensate for it's possible Hi Jump Kick miss, and to cancel out hazard damage. In my opinion, Mienshao fits nicely in B-Rank because it has a really nice niche in this meta game as one of the greatest Pivot Scarfers, Regenerator, and the ability to hit it common counters with HP Ice. Terrakion is overall a better Pokemon in general, however it's sitting all the way up in S-Rank, two ranks below Mienshao if it was in B-Rank.

I've used Mienshao before and it's quite amazing. I think it's a great low-mid B-Rank Pokemon.

 

[Vemane]

Cause it makes you lose 50% health everytime you miss. Add life orb recoil into that and you see how unreliable mienshao really is.

Let's be honest.

Mienshao isn't survivng any attacks anyways

So the crash really does not matter

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Let's be honest.

Mienshao isn't survivng any attacks anyways

So the crash really does not matter

It does not matter? When youre not at full health it matters a freaking lot since you can actually kill yourself. Also not everyone runs regenerator and it doesnt restore all the health lost anyway.

 

[Vemane]

It does not matter? When youre not at full health it matters a freaking lot since you can actually kill yourself. Also not everyone runs regenerator and it doesnt restore all the health lost anyway.

So what if you kill yourself?

Your opponent will do it anyways

Tbh, I would almost rather the 10% chance (that's an ice beam freeze...) of taking damage and not hitting on a STRONGER move then the 100% chance of defenses going down the drain with close combat.

And I never said a thing about regenerator...

 

[False Sense]

It does not matter? When youre not at full health it matters a freaking lot since you can actually kill yourself. Also not everyone runs regenerator and it doesnt restore all the health lost anyway.

You're very rarely NOT going to be at full health thanks to Regenerator. This is especially true when you consider how much Mienshao is going to be U-Turning; it constantly regains it's health back.

 

[Gary]

It does not matter? When youre not at full health it matters a freaking lot since you can actually kill yourself. Also not everyone runs regenerator and it doesnt restore all the health lost anyway.

Abilities
| Regenerator 91.363%
| Reckless 6.652%
| Inner Focus 1.985%

Yeah most people are going to be using Regenerator.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

So what if you kill yourself?

Your opponent will do it anyways

Tbh, I would almost rather the 10% chance (that's an ice beam freeze...) of taking damage and not hitting on a STRONGER move then the 100% chance of defenses going down the drain with close combat.

And I never said a thing about regenerator...

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 192-227 (70.84 - 83.76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Gastrodon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 139-165 (51.29 - 60.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mienshao: 163-193 (60.14 - 71.21%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (111 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 166-196 (61.25 - 72.32%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It CAN survive hits from walls and breloom mach punch. Suffering recoil prevents you from doing so. So no, i would not say it doesnt matter.

 

[Boondocker]

Ttar for S

I know the Ttar arguement is old, but one thing i don't think people appreciate is the sheer number of things CB Tar can trap. If you have good prediction skills, or are good with double switching, it is quite easy to get multiple kills with it a game. There's the standard stuff that everyone knows it can trap, and then there is lesser known stuff like Scarf Mence, Tentacruel, Venusaur, Jirachi (without Iron Head), Scarf Rotom, Ninetales, Scarf Thundy-T, and more.


252Atk Choice Band Tyranitar (+Atk) Pursuit vs 4HP/0Def switching Salamence: 79% - 94%
After Sr its dead

252Atk Choice Band Tyranitar (+Atk) Pursuit vs 252HP/88Def switching Tentacruel: 75% - 89%
Most don't risk the Scald burn

252Atk Choice Band Tyranitar (+Atk) Pursuit vs 4HP/0Def switching Venusaur: 84% - 100%
Something else needs to take the Sleep Powder

252Atk Choice Band Tyranitar (+Atk) Pursuit vs 252HP/0Def switching Jirachi: 54% - 64%

252Atk Choice Band Tyranitar (+Atk) Pursuit vs 252HP/252Def Flash Fire switching Ninetales: 60% - 70%
No one even runs this much defense....It could go for the burn but it risks a Cb Stone Edge

252Atk Choice Band Tyranitar (+Atk) Pursuit vs 0HP/0Def Volt Absorb switching Thundurus Therian: 98% - 116%
Pursuit hits even if it Volt Switches

252Atk Choice Band Tyranitar (+Atk) Pursuit vs 0HP/0Def Levitate switching Rotom-W: 86% - 102%
Hydro Pump doesnt even come close to KOing

 

[Pikachuu]

Tyranitar isn't S-rank because of its slow speed, plethora of weaknesses and bad matchups against all the other weather starters (yes, even Ninetales, as Tyranitar doesn't like a Will-o-Wisp on the switch and Sunny Day+SolarBeam variants will force it out).
Also, unlike Hippowdown, it's Dugtrio bait.

A S-rank pokemon should always be a welcome addition in every team that requires its niche (which is Sand Stream in Tyranitar's case).
However, the very fact Tyranitar's presence isn't desirable in all sand teams (due to the aforementioned flaws) is reason enough not to put it in S-rank.

Notice that the current S-rank pokemon do not have to compete for a teamslot with another pokemon. That's a big part of the reason they're S-rank.
Tyranitar will always have to compete with Hippowdown for a teamslot instead.
Please don't say that Tyranitar is always better on offensive teams and Hippowdown is always better in stall teams as it's a gross overgeneralization.

Ninetales should NEVER stay in on Tyranitar as a Choice Banded Stone Edge can possibly KO or deal over 80% and that's when burned limiting Ninetales to how many times it can switch in. Yeah you burned Tyranitar but you pretty much just lost the weather war too. Also I like how you say is Dugtrio bait when Terrakion is too not to mention Terrakion is also trapped by Wobbuffet and Gothitelle. Even then Dugtrio needs Focus Sash to be intact and for Tyranitar to have taken about 35% damage to stand a chance. Politoed also has the same problems of being trapped by Gothitelle and Dugtrio (reversal hurts). Idk why you are even comparing Hippowdon to Tyranitar they are very different at what they do but Tyranitar's usage and top 5 almost every month speaks for itself. I hadn't read your second post when I was writing this but after you said Tyranitar doesn't help Keldeo in anyway I knew you were just trolling.

 

[PK Gaming]

Ok

Mienshao added to B-rank (Mienshao is actually pretty awesome in OU.)
Nidoqueen added to C-rank
Rotom-H added to C-rank (That SR weak is so bad, but its actually pretty cool on sun teams)

Scrafty is probably too good for D-rank. The Dragon Dance set can sweep most teams once pretty easily once its checks are out of the way so its kind of a neat win condition. The only problem it's checks are really prevalent (Scarf Keldeo, Breloom) and kind of hard hard to remove and it doesn't have an easy time setting up either. I'm going to add it to C-rank for now, but if there's a large outcry i'll reverse the change.

By the way, i'm going to start adding tiers to each rank so look out for that :o
I added Hitmontop to C-rank as well, and once those separate tiers are made its definitely going to be at the bottom of C-tier. (Donphan too)