Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Magcargo]

C&C Work

Completed

(RU Lum Berry + Harvest)

(BW2 NU Update

(BW2 RU Update)

(Doubles Analysis)
(BW2 NU Revamp)

(BW2 OU Revamp)
(BW2 RU Sunny Day Support)
(BW2 UU Offensive Stealth Rock)

(Doubles Analysis)

(Doubles Analysis)
(Doubles Garchomp)

(BW2 NU Revamp)

(UU Special Attacker)

(BW2 OU Analysis)
(BW Terrakion)
(XY OU Metagross)
(XY OU Keldeo)
(XY LC Wingull)
(XY OU Latias)

Current Projects:

(Doubles Scrafty)
(NU Solrock)
(BW Doubles Kyurem)
(Anti-lead Archeops)
(LC Magnemite)
(Doubles Rotom-H)

Rejected:
(BW2 OU Agility)

Community Projects:
(Assault Vest)

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Yeah I can't say much ATM but celebi is not s rank. It just does not have the stats. Base 100 is just not good enough for a defense typing that's a double edged sword. Yeah it can outspeed and kill Ttar or scizor but that just weakens it in some other regards. If you ev it right it can do tons of stuff but its not like genesect or something where every different set is equally viable. Celebi is used for its defense against rain teams and thats about it, that's just what puts it in a rank.

 

[False Sense]

Celebi for S-Rank? That's interesting, to say the least.

Honestly, it's kind of a mixed bag here. On one hand Celebi does have that incredible diversity that let's it beat out a ton of it's common counters. On the other, though, it has a huge amount of weaknesses, including a nasty weakness to U-Turn and Pursuit. This makes it rather vulnerable to a lot of threats that it really doesn't want to be weak to, and that really hinders it.

Now don't get me wrong, Celebi's pros often outweigh those cons. It still has incredible diversity, and is a great special wall, tank, or sweeper, depending on what you want to use. But that huge amount of weaknesses can't be ignored, and while it has a good few ways of working around them, they always have a way of causing it pain. In short, Celebi is a fantastic pokemon, but it falls short of S-Rank. Sorry Tabuu...

 

[Bologo]

I've been wondering recently, is Jirachi is a good candidate for S-rank?

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

Jirachi is one of the most versatile pokemon in the tier. His analysis pretty much speaks for itself due to having a whopping 7 sets, all of them very good.

He's incredible at filling a lot of roles on a team such as:

- Stealth Rocker
- Sweeper (both physical and special)
- Scarfer/Revenge Killer
- WishPasser
- Wall
- Excruciatingly annoying paralysis supporter

And probably even more roles that I didn't mention.

- As a Stealth Rocker, he sets himself apart from the pack due to keeping momentum (U-turn), and also having the ability to completely ruin the opponent's Stealth Rocker by flinching them to death. Not to mention that fast, frail hazard setting leads run a big risk if they try going toe-to-toe with him, because on the off-chance that it's a Choice Scarf lead and not a Stealth Rocker, Iron Head will ruin them.

- While Jirachi isn't usually physically sweeping, he does have great coverage and the ability to flinch past all of his counters as a nice perk.

- The special sweeper is often found on Rain teams, and it's excruciatingly difficult to kill when it effectively only has one weakness and a buttload of resistances. Not to mention, just like the physical attacking variants of Jirachi, this one can easily hax its way through its counters with Thunder paralysis, and even Water Pulse confusion.

- The Choice Scarfer is a dangerous revenge-killer due to its great coverage and flinching ability with Iron Head. He's also a very good Choice Scarfer due to an SR resist, access to U-turn, and numerous resistances to get in safely.

- Jirachi is a great WishPasser, because not only does he pass a decent 202 HP, but he's able to come in and do it over and over again, while sustaining himself by taking advantage of his own Wishes. Because a lot of opponents get paralyzed by Jirachi as well, there are a lot of times where he can even get the WishPass off untouched.

- I'm going to put the last two points into one, because they go hand in hand. Jirachi loves to paralyze opponents with his annoying Body Slam and Thunder Wave. He's also ridiculously hard to kill because of a number of factors including Wish, his typing, great defenses, and numerous flinches. Being ParaFlinched is possibly one of the most annoying things, and because of how difficult it can be to kill Jirachi, he can do it over and over again.

And one last point is that a lot of supporting pokemon hate having a Choice Scarf Tricked onto them. Jirachi, however, doesn't care. If it has Iron Head, all Tricking a Scarf onto it does is just give it more things to flinch to death.

Basically, Jirachi is an amazing pokemon who can perform damn near any role on a team, and because of Serene Grace and an awesome movepool to take advantage of it, he's able to muscle past a lot of counters. This is why I think Jirachi should be S-rank instead of A-rank.

 

[Bent1ey]

Celebi not to S rank, Jirachi, maybe, but mostly because of its wish passing capabilities. Jirachi shares many crucial characteristics with Ferrothorn, but can perform many different roles decently, it's often important as a defensive pivot thanks to it's typing and it's bulk and speed are among the best in the top pokemon.

He does get trashed by Landorus so I'm not sure if he performs that well in the current meta compared with times in which Tornadus was on, for example. It should've probably been bumped up back then, right now I think it's a solid option that can remain in A, but it certainly flirts with S sometimes.

Its interesting to note that Metagross gets bad rep mostly because it pales horribly in comparision with Jirachi, however the fact that Rachi is such a solid pokemon diminishes the comparision quite a bit -Metagross still has a movepool as shallow as hell though-.

 

[Pikachuu]

No way is Celebi S-rank for the reasons that people already mentioned above. However I support Jirachi for S-rank. This thing is very versatile and can win you games where you weren't supposed to win. Very difficult to counter as your counter/check could get paralyzed and Jirachi could either switch out or flinch it to death. Also with the combination of Wish and Protect it has reliable recovery. Unlike other Pokemon it can afford to invest all the EV's into HP and Defense/Special Defense and still take down Pokemon one by one with the combination of Paralysis and Iron Head flinching. Can go on the special side with Calm Mind and it's very effective in rain with good moves to abuse Thunder, Flash Cannon, Water Pulse, Substitute this particular set is very hard to counter as your answer could get confused or paralyzed and hit in confusion while Jirachi can continue Subbing and slowly take down your Pokemon. Great defensive typing Steel is the best defensive typing in the game with a million resistances and great 100/100/100 bulk. Jirachi can use so many sets effectively it's not even funny. I'm surprised it still hasn't been put in S-rank.

 

[Bologo]

He does get trashed by Landorus so I'm not sure if he performs that well in the current meta compared with times in which Tornadus was on, for example. It should've probably been bumped up back then, right now I think it's a solid option that can remain in A, but it certainly flirts with S sometimes.

Well, to be fair, while Landorus can OHKO with Earth Power, it's also tough for Landorus to switch in safely due to Body Slam being so common on Jirachi (Landorus is probably one of the big reasons Body Slam's so damn common now; for February it was on 32% of Jirachi, and they're not afraid to spam it, especially if they see Landorus in team preview). Not to mention Scarf Jirachis commonly carrying Ice Punch (Ice Punch on 20% of Jirachis in Feb), and Rain Team Jirachis commonly carrying Water Pulse (and if it's a sub version, they won't even have to predict if they get the sub on the switch).

But aside from that, Terrakion takes quite a beating from Landorus, but he's in S-rank too, so losing to one top pokemon won't completely stop something from being S-rank.

 

[Bent1ey]

But aside from that, Terrakion takes quite a beating from Landorus, but he's in S-rank too, so losing to one top pokemon won't completely stop something from being S-rank.

Well, Terrakion takes a beating from eveyone and their mother, but he's an offensive threat that outclasses all offenses Jirachi can even hope to muster. Jirachi is more of a bulky attacker, defensive pokemon, and on its defensive/support roles he's hit with Super Effective damage or takes tons from neutral-boosted attacks. Back in the Tornadus debacle it was critical because it possesed the Flying resist that Ferrothorn lacked -definitively S rank back then-, right now Latias and Celebi have been bumped in the utility role for that absence and better adaptation against Keldeo/Landorus.

 

[Meru]

I'm inclined to agree with the above. Right now, Jirachi doesn't wall some of the best specially offensive threats. Keldeo, Thundurus-T, and Landorus-I are all very common while physical Ground-types like Garchomp, Landorus-T, and Hippowdon are lurking around every corner.

We all know Jirachi is amazing, and has been S-worthy in the past, but right now just isn't his metagame to shine in.

 

[preserve]

I think Staraptor should be in the C rank. Maybe even in the B rank. Choice Banded Reckless Double Edge and Brave Bird either one or two hit KO's most of the Pokemon in OU and those that resist both such as heatran and tyranitar gets destroyed my a Close Combat. You can also use life orb which still does almost the same amount of power, but makes you use less prediction. It also has a decent speed which can out speed a lot of the pokemon. Its recoil and weakness to rocks may not make it sweep whole teams, but it still has the potential take out half of the opponents team.

 

[Vemane]

No way is Celebi S-rank for the reasons that people already mentioned above. However I support Jirachi for S-rank. This thing is very versatile and can win you games where you weren't supposed to win. Very difficult to counter as your counter/check could get paralyzed and Jirachi could either switch out or flinch it to death. Also with the combination of Wish and Protect it has reliable recovery. Unlike other Pokemon it can afford to invest all the EV's into HP and Defense/Special Defense and still take down Pokemon one by one with the combination of Paralysis and Iron Head flinching. Can go on the special side with Calm Mind and it's very effective in rain with good moves to abuse Thunder, Flash Cannon, Water Pulse, Substitute this particular set is very hard to counter as your answer could get confused or paralyzed and hit in confusion while Jirachi can continue Subbing and slowly take down your Pokemon. Great defensive typing Steel is the best defensive typing in the game with a million resistances and great 100/100/100 bulk. Jirachi can use so many sets effectively it's not even funny. I'm surprised it still hasn't been put in S-rank.

It can also lose you games that you should have won. I swear, I have sat there longer TRYING to paralyze with thunder or flinching with iron head than I have actually doing so. Relying on hax is never a good thing because then the results of the match are no longer in your hands. 100/100 defenses aren't spectacular. Yes, it can run a billion different sets, but how many are actually relevant? 3? Maybe. The thing has 4mss when spdef and has an unfortunate ground weakness, as well as the aformentioned reliance on hax. Scarf rachi is ridiculous setup bait and incredibly weak. Subcm is fun! (if the opposing team isn't prepared)

In any case, no way is it s rank

But aside from that, Terrakion takes quite a beating from Landorus, but he's in S-rank too, so losing to one top pokemon won't completely stop something from being S-rank.

Terrakion isn't trying to wall landorus...

"Keldeo can't do anything to shedinja and that is nu... can't be s rank"

 

[/B/utterfree]

"Keldeo can't do anything to shedinja and that is nu... can't be s rank"

I know that statement's a joke, but I wondered what the opinion of Hidden Power Ghost was? (Welp, looks like Keldeo CAN do something to Shedinja!)

I personally think Hidden Power Ghost is the best Hidden Power for Keldeo; it knows what it's going to get slammed by (Jellicent, Gengar, Trick Room Reuniclus, Lati@s, etc etc) and (almost) all of Keldeo's obstacles can be terminated by a few Calm Mind boosts and HP Ghost (any Alakazam who doesn't run Psyshock might be in for a surprise at its durability after those Calm Mind boosts).

 

[Schpoonman]

HP Ghost is almost exclusively for Jellicent. Genger and Reuniclus are crushed by boosted Surfs and Hydro Pumps, whereas Lati@s and Dragons in general are hit by HP Ice. Ghost overlaps Jellicent, Lati@s, and Celebi, which I guess HP Dark would as well, but there's probably something I'm forgetting that causes Keldeo to run Ghost.

 

[Tressed]

HP Ghost is almost exclusively for Jellicent. Genger and Reuniclus are crushed by boosted Surfs and Hydro Pumps, whereas Lati@s and Dragons in general are hit by HP Ice. Ghost overlaps Jellicent, Lati@s, and Celebi, which I guess HP Dark would as well, but there's probably something I'm forgetting that causes Keldeo to run Ghost.

Its just the Justified boosts on Terrakion, as well as not being as easy for a Fighting type to sponge it (though a neutral HP Ghost isn't that powerful anyways).

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Its just the Justified boosts on Terrakion, as well as not being as easy for a Fighting type to sponge it (though a neutral HP Ghost isn't that powerful anyways).

Not only that, but HP Ghost mantains neutral coverage against Toxicroak. In fact, with prior damage, a Specs-boosted HP Ghost has a chance to 2HKO Toxicroak. The problem is that Toxicroak will usually recover all the lost HP under rain, so it needs to be heavily weakened to be 2HKOed.

Also, HP Ghost is only really useful for Jellicent, and because it mantains coverage against Lati@s and Celebi (luckily, they are Psychic-types). Otherwise, HP Electric is a better choice. It covers Gyarados and Tentacruel more effectively. HP Ice if you are using a CM set, otherwise Icy Wind covers the Dragon-types.

I do not support Celebi for S rank. Celebi is very prone to U-turn, one of the most common moves in the game. Not only this, but 4MSS syndrome really hurts the onion because it really has a hard time picking its moves. It doesn't have average syndrome it has a very severe case of it. Also, it is huge Pursuit bait and Grass is not a great defensive type: it has many weaknesses it can be hit hard by. Don't get me wrong, Celebi does a wonderful job of walling the threats you listed, but has too many crippling flaws that prevent it from breaking the barrier and going S rank. A rank s already exactly where it should be.

Celebi is an onion???? O.o

I would only say that it has 4MSS on the Nasty Plot set, because most other sets can cover enough things with their 4 moveslots. This is because Celebi has to choose between being walled by Heatran (Hidden Power Fire), or being walled by Scizor and Ferrothorn (Earth Power), and being able to hit Dragon-types harder while hitting Hydreigon and Lati@s (Hidden Power Ice), or being able to hit most Dragon-types neutrally while having a stronger general STAB that can hit Fighting-types harder (Psychic).

Grass is not a bad defensive type. People tend to say that because it has 5 weakness, but on the end, only two of these weakness are relevant (Fire and Ice). Maybe also Bug, but most Bug-type attacks that you are going to see are U-Turn, and the most common user of them is Scizor. The only Pokémon that commonly use Flying-type attacks are Skarmory and Tornadus, and nobody uses Poison-type attacks, save for Sludge Bomb on Venusaur. With that said, thanks to Grass' four valuable resistances, it is one of the best defensive types.

The reason why Celebi should not be A-Rank is because it fails to wall all relevant things on OU and fails to sweep everything. No matter which moves Celebi uses, it is always going to be walled by something, and is usually something that is very common (for example, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Kyurem-B walls Earth Power + HP Ice, while Heatran and Lati@s wall HP Fire + Psychic). Not only that, but Celebi's speed isn't incredible. It needs team support; Celebi is not like Pokémon such as Landorus-I, which can sweep with little support.

 

[G-Von]

No way is Celebi S-rank for the reasons that people already mentioned above. However I support Jirachi for S-rank. This thing is very versatile and can win you games where you weren't supposed to win. Very difficult to counter as your counter/check could get paralyzed and Jirachi could either switch out or flinch it to death. Also with the combination of Wish and Protect it has reliable recovery. Unlike other Pokemon it can afford to invest all the EV's into HP and Defense/Special Defense and still take down Pokemon one by one with the combination of Paralysis and Iron Head flinching. Can go on the special side with Calm Mind and it's very effective in rain with good moves to abuse Thunder, Flash Cannon, Water Pulse, Substitute this particular set is very hard to counter as your answer could get confused or paralyzed and hit in confusion while Jirachi can continue Subbing and slowly take down your Pokemon. Great defensive typing Steel is the best defensive typing in the game with a million resistances and great 100/100/100 bulk. Jirachi can use so many sets effectively it's not even funny. I'm surprised it still hasn't been put in S-rank.

I have fought for Jirachi to become S-rank soooo many pages ago (probably about 20-30 pages, if not more) and no one was buying it. When I see a Jirachi in team preview, my head hits the fucking desk because I already know I will probably have trouble with it. Idk if PK has spoken his opinion on it, but I would support Jirachi for S-rank.

 

[RabidChipmunk]

I have fought for Jirachi to become S-rank soooo many pages ago (probably about 20-30 pages, if not more) and no one was buying it. When I see a Jirachi in team preview, my head hits the fucking desk because I already know I will probably have trouble with it. Idk if PK has spoken his opinion on it, but I would support Jirachi for S-rank.

I, too, support Jirachi for S-Rank.

Jirachi is one of those Pokemon where you actively have to ask yourself "Why am I NOT using this on my team?" It's an excellent team supporter, a potent Calm Mind sweeper, quite possibly the ultimate hax Pokemon, and, in the rain especially, a right bitch to take out. Jirachi does everything, and more often than not your team will benefit from it's addition. Jirachi for S-Rank.

 

[Pikachuu]

Proposing Garchomp for S-rank. As you all may know Garchomp is still listed as an A-rank Pokemon. I strongly feel it's an S-rank Pokemon and better than Terrakion in many ways. So I'm going to be comparing the two in this wall of text. It's because of one set that I feel it is S-rank and that set is SD Yache Chomp. This set is an awesome wallbreaker and let me tell you why it's better than SD Terrakion. First and foremost nothing can wall it at +2 yes even without Life Orb. Walls are forced to phase it out or they get outright 2HKO'D. Here are some calcs vs OU's toughest to break physical walls.

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.48%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 252-297 (60 - 70.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 228-268 (59.68 - 70.15%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 184-218 (54.43 - 64.49%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 241-285 (68.07 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you can see even OU's best physical walls can't wall Garchomp. The first two are forced to phase or get 2HKO'd while Garchomp can still get in later in the match with the same health as when he left. Landorus-T gets 2HKO'd and can't do much back except Earthquake or HP Ice but can't hope to beat Garchomp because of Yache Berry. Same with Bronzong. Gliscor also 2HKO'd and can really only poison it back but Garchomp almost always breaks trough Gliscor. Breaks trough Ferrothorn as well while Ferro can really only Leech Seed or Gyro Ball. Terrakion loses to both Gliscor and Landorus-T as it has to rely on Stone Edge which is too weak even at +2 to break trough them while Landorus-T and Gliscor can dispose of it with Earthquake.

Garchomp is harder to check than Terrakion. The answer as to why is because of the typing. Garchomp is Ground/Dragon therefore being weak to only Ice and Dragon. Terrakion is Rock/Fighting and has a whopping 6 weaknesses. Fighting, Ground, Steel, Water, Grass and Psychic. Scizor, the number 1 used Pokemon in OU makes Terrakion's life hell and checks all Terrakion's sets unless using Babiri Berry but it's dumb using it because Close Combat lowers it's defenses so it's a waste of an item imo. Also get's checked by Breloom's Mach Punch a really popular Pokemon as well as Conkeldurr. That's just priority but Terrakion is also easily checked by Keldeo, Politoed, T-tar, Landorus etc. All of these are very common Pokemon that can check Terrakion if they are Scarfed. Now let's talk about Garchomp, because of only one priority weakness and really good bulk it can afford to use Yache Berry and use it very effectively. Mamoswine gets beaten by Garchomp, Keldeo, Landorus, Breloom, Scizor all common Pokemon used as revenge killers fall to YacheChomp. The only thing that can reliably check Garchomp is Lati@s which can get trapped by T-tar who is commonly on the same team with Garchomp or other Scarfed Dragons which are rare.

So Garchomp has no reliable counters and is a lot harder to check than Terrakion that alone makes it S-rank but heh I'll continue. People always like to bring up Terrakion's higher speed and Special Defense boost but it honestly doesn't matter the only thing Garchomp misses out on are Keldeo, Infernape and Terrakion that's litterally it not to mention SD Garchomp beats all three of them if using Yache Berry. As for the Special Defense boost it really is a shame for Terrakion because all of it's counters/checks use physical moves and Special Attackers like Lati@s can even get around that because of Psyshock so the Sp Def boost isn't really helpful. In short Garchomp has no reliable counters, much harder to check, better bulk and better typing.

All these advantages Garchomp has over Terrakion makes it S-rank. Terrakion being an arguably better Choice Band/Scarf Pokemon and Rock Polish are really the only things it has over Garchomp and even then Rock Polish isn't too good with Scizor and Breloom everywhere. Summary: Garchomp has no reliable counters unlike Terrakion, a lot harder to check, better bulk, typing. Garchomp really deserves S-rank and I think many other people think so as well.

 

[Ryuuki]

Well we had a Garchomp discussion on pages 74-76 if you want to read it. But I don't think Garchomp should be S-rank becouse of its speed stat. 102 i good but many scarfers and shit like Keldeo can come in and revenge kill it if it get's looked inte outrage, and I don't have problem with that. However it's far from bad.

On the Jirachi note, I do realy love Jirachi but it's not really that good. Yes that 60% paralyze chance is really good but for crippel sweepers but to many things can force it out like Garchomp, Heatran, Landorus and even Volcarona. If it's the paraflinch set then it's just to come in on iron head.
Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability.
It have 3 good sets it can use and all three of them relays on a 60% hax making it unreliable. Jirachi isn't unpredictable and it's infact quite predictable with spamming Thunder or Body Slam and possible Iron Head.
Also If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. I don't feel that Jirachi's strengths makes up for it's weeknesses. It don't hit can excel at either hit hard or tanky. It's still among the best tanks we have but it isn't enough to push it over the top.

So I think both Garchomp should stay in the A-rank.

 

[kakuna]

I don't totally understand why Kyurem-B is in the A tier with powerhouses like Latios and Landorus-T. While Kyurem-B is in no way bad, his poor movepool and typing don't consistently earn him a spot in the top OU club. I think Kyurem-B would fit better in the B-Rank because he is often outclassed where he currently is. Garchomp isn't weak to bullet punch or close combat, and has greater speed and STAB earthquake. While Kyurem has a water resist while not being weak to ice- very useful- he has too many defensive issues to sweep ever. Kyurem-B is very powerful and all, but in terms of consistently being a great choice and performer... no. The only set that can really hammer past checks is mixed with HP fire for forretress and ferrothorn, but then kyurem finds himself taking life orb damage and stealth rock damage, not to mention he could be lured into outrage and become setup fodder or be picked off by gyro ball. Also unless he is scarf he will be annihalated by terrakion and keldeo. Regardless breloom will get him. Choice band sets are usually outclassed by dragonite or garchomp, while choice scarf sets are outclassed by salamence. Mixed sets are usually done better by hydreigon. Kyurem-B has amazing stats in general though which can't be overlooked, so he fits in B rank as a jack of all trades but a master of none. The only sets Kyurem can pull off which only he can pull off are more defensively based, like sub hone claws and sub 3 attacks. Neither of these sets are dangerous enough or get enough set up oppurtunities to work consistently though. Sub hone claws works well on dedicated stall teams looking for a win condition of sorts, but Jellicent and Forretress are way more key to stall teams, and see themselves in the B rank. Nothing Kyurem does can really compete with its current A tier counterparts.

 

[Sam]

Well we had a Garchomp discussion on pages 74-76 if you want to read it. But I don't think Garchomp should be S-rank becouse of its speed stat. 102 i good but many scarfers and shit like Keldeo can come in and revenge kill it if it get's looked inte outrage, and I don't have problem with that. However it's far from bad.

That's a very poor argument though because scarfers are really going to outspeed anything. The only time that argument would really be relevant is when discussing ScarfChomp sets, which aren't very good in this meta anyway. Scarf Keldeo can't OHKO the Yache sets, while Garchomp does a lot on the switch (66.25 - 78.32%) or would obviously OHKO at +1. Specs Keldeo does have a very good chance of OHKOing after SR, though I believe Scarf is the more popular (and perhaps viable?) set.

 

[TrippingRocks]

We already had this argument a few pages ago and Kyu-B is totally A-rank worthy.
Funny how you consider the other A-rank pokemon to be "powerhouses" and say that Kyu-B isn't one when its stats are way higher.

It's the only OU dragon not to be weak to Ice Shard, so don't use the "but it's weak to Bullet Punch and Mach Punch" argument without mentioning that massive advantage.
The only common Mach Punch user is Breloom, who is never going to beat Kyu-B if it's behind a substitute.

Kyu-B can set up a Substitute for free against almost any single water, electric and grass type in the metagame (exceptions: Keldeo that isn't locked into a water move and Ferrothorn with Gyro Ball) and from there it can either flat out KO or at the very least 2HKO most switch-ins.

It's quite possibly the best anti-rain pokemon in the tier, because unlike Gastrodon its presence is immediatly threatening to the opposing rain team.
It also fares well against sun and especially against Venusaur, the premier sun sweeper.
Hail teams both greatly benefit from Kyu-B and have a hard time beating it.
Sand teams are problematic because Kyu-B hates residual damage, but ground types certainly don't like a STAB Ice Beam coming from 120 sp.atk.

The mixed attacker set has zero safe switch ins and the bulky sets can survive SE hits after SR and KO threats in return because its attack stat is so overkill.

Kyu-B is a jack of all trades and master of quite a few of them. It also completely destroys most of the other A-rank pokemon like Starmie, Hippowdown, Celebi, Rotom-W, Venusaur, Skarmory and Ninetales. Its only real competition are the other dragons, all of which lack Kyu-B's greatest advantages (namely ice neutrality, bulk and superior mixed attacking stats).

While I agree that Kyurem-B should remain as an A-rank, I'd like to refute some of your points anyway.

Kyruem-B may not be weak to ice shards, but his ice-typing now gives him a weakness to 3 priority moves, mach punch, bullet punch, and vacuum wave. Vacuum wave is rare in the metagame, so lets forget about that one. Bullet punch is commonly only seen on Brelooms... but then again... ice shard is commonly only seen on Mamoswines. Donphans can also pack ice shard, but they're not that common. Bullet punch, on the other hand, is extremely common as Scizor is the main user of it. Scizor is one of THE most commonly used OU pokemon in the game. Kyurem's weakness to bullet punch alone already outweighs the pro of him taking neutral damage to ice shard. And his weakness to mach punch only makes it worse.

Kyurem-B has some monstrous stats indeed, but his typing is more of a curse than a blessing. Out of all the dragons, Kyurem-B is THE most vulnerable dragon pokemon to entry hazards. He takes super effective damage from stealth rocks and takes damage from the spikes. Sure, other dragons like dragonite and salamence may by weak to stealth rocks as well, but at least they're invulnerable to spikes. Such is not the case for Kyurem-B. Kyurem-B has good bulk, but his typing really bites him.

His movepool kind of bites too. You can't really run an all-physical set with Kyurem-B because he doesn't have the coverage for it. If he wants to hit those steel types for super effective damage, he has to run a specially-based move. His special attack stat is great and all, but his physical attack is far, far superior. His speed stat also holds him back. The only OU dragon that is slower than Kyurem-B is Dragonite, but Dragonite has extremespeed to patch that slowness up and a better move set.

 

[Vemane]

His movepool kind of bites too. You can't really run an all-physical set with Kyurem-B because he doesn't have the coverage for it. If he wants to hit those steel types for super effective damage, he has to run a specially-based move. His special attack stat is great and all, but his physical attack is far, far superior. His speed stat also holds him back. The only OU dragon that is slower than Kyurem-B is Dragonite, but Dragonite has extremespeed to patch that slowness up and a better move set.

252 Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/0 Def Jirachi (+Def): 44.55% - 52.48%

Good chance to 2hko after rocks




That is why he can run a physical set just fine

 

[TrippingRocks]

252 Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/0 Def Jirachi (+Def): 44.55% - 52.48%

Good chance to 2hko after rocks




That is why he can run a physical set just fine

The other OU dragons have a bigger physical movepool than Kyurem-B, a physical movepool that can deal super-effective damage to steel types.

If we're talking about a max atk Kyurem-B with choice band and his strongest STAB move, then obviously he'll be able to 2 hit-KO quite a number of pokemon. Still doesn't change the fact that he simply lacks the same amount of physical coverage as the other OU dragons. While he also has the highest attack stat of the dragons, the lack of coverage balances it out.

Against a 252 HP/252 Def Jirachi (+Def), a Kyurem-B has NO CHANCE of knocking it out in two hits with just it's physical set (even with stealth rock support). With a dragonite or salamence, it's certainly possible, thanks to their access to earthquake.

Against a 252 HP/ 0 Def Ferrothorn (+Def), you'd have to be very lucky to 2hko it with a CB-KyuremB and that's only if you have stealth rocks up. If the Ferrothorn has some defensive investments, then there's no way for a Kyurem-B to 2hko it with just his physical movepool.

Basically, against any steel type, Kyurem-B's physical movepool lacks the coverage to deal with them as well as the other OU dragons. Against physically bulky steel types, a physical Kyurem-B with CB has no chance of 2hko.

 

[TrippingRocks]

That's not the point. The point is that Kyurem-B's ridiculous power compensates for its lack of movepool.

My previous post already mentioned that his high attack stat balanced his lack of physical coverage.

My point is that Kyurem-B is better off going for a mixed set. I still think he's A-rank, but if you're only going to use his physical moveset, you're probably better off with another dragon that has better physical coverage.