OU Stats - February 2k13

[Lavos]

i'm talking setup sweepers, in which case it probably goes something like breloom, landorus, volcarona, lucario, and dragonite. mence and terrak are scary too but neither of them have priority or insane levels of speed to aid them in their quest to sweep teams. and whether or not it's top 5 is irrelevant anyways since my argument for lucario's viability stands regardless of its placement in the lists of threatening sweepers. c'mon g-von

 

[G-Von]

I'm simply not convinced. Also, in defense of mence and Terrakion, they can boost their speed after all. In regard to priority,Terrakion rarely runs Quick Attack but has worked out on the CB set. In the end, neither of our opinions are changing.

On another topic, with March coming to an end, any expectation for any new arrivals or departures for OU?

 

[Ehrmantraut]

I'm simply not convinced. Also, in defense of mence and Terrakion, they can boost their speed after all. In regard to priority,Terrakion rarely runs Quick Attack but has worked out on the CB set. In the end, neither of our opinions are changing.

On another topic, with March coming to an end, any expectation for any new arrivals or departures for OU?

I'm expecting Haxorus to fall to BL or UU.

 

[TaBuu]

"I'm simply not convinced. Also, in defense of mence and Terrakion, they can boost their speed after all. In regard to priority,Terrakion rarely runs Quick Attack but has worked out on the CB set. In the end, neither of our opinions are changing"

Boost your speed only to get smacked up by a +2 LO Boosted Extremespeed or Bullet Punch? No Pokemon can rival a +2 LO Boosted Extremespeed from Lucario save Dragonite.
CB Terrakion with Quick Attack? Great, now we can achieve those critical 5% KOs. Oh, and let's no forget that locking Terrakion into Quick Attack is a great move. I guess Lucario's +2 LO Extremespeed is outclassed by a CB Quick Attack. Oh boy.

Lucario definitely lacks a strong offensive presence early game when many of his checks and counters are most likely healthy. Lucario is incredibly reliant on Stealth Rock support, Spikes damage and Wallbreaking teammates to succeed. But once those feasible requirements are meant, Lucario can destroy teams super quickly and can potentially pull a turn-around sweep.

Sure he's frail but so what? He's only meant to come in about once or twice a match; and those times will be meant to stay in and sweep. He isn't an offensive/defensive pivot for a team to abuse.
Lucario is slow? He has Extremespeed and Bulletpunch to alleviate those issues. Close Combat is only meant for walls that fall slower than Lucario. Too many offensive threats are too fast for Lucario and so Close Combat will rarely be used against an offensive team. However, many threats end up being frail and susceptible to Lucario's two priorities.

Lucario should never be underestimated as he is a huge threat to any team that lacks a proper response for him.

 

[Bologo]

Personally, I never run Lucario without Gothitelle now, because Gothitelle is basically the perfect partner for Lucario. If you use them together, it's very easy to set up with Lucario.

Basically, Gothitelle can easily get rid of annoying counters like Terrakion using Psyshock/Psychic (on a revenge, or on a Close Combat), and guys like Gliscor as well with HP Ice. Since Tyranitar has gotten ridiculously Pursuit-happy, Tyranitar, who's almost always Choiced nowadays, will come in, Pursuit Gothitelle (if it doesn't, it risks getting another pokemon trapped and killed by Gothitelle later on), and then you have a perfect setup opportunity with Lucario. It's also a nice way to take advantage of everyone Choicing their Tyranitars.

Another way to set up Lucario with Gothitelle is to just Trick a wall onto a move that won't really hurt Lucario much. Ie. trap Ferrothorn and Trick a Scarf onto it while it tries to set up Spikes. Now you have another perfect setup opportunity with Lucario. Forcing walls to stay in and get Tricked is an evil strategy that can make it a lot easier for frail pokemon to do their thing.

 

[TaBuu]

Choice Banded Tyranitar, Trick Gothitelle, Banded Dragonite and Scarfed Salamence all serve as great partners for Lucario. CB Tyranitar can outright demolish Pokemon that resist Lucario's moveset while Trick Gothitelle can trap troublesome Pokemon and act as a good set-up opportunity maker for Lucario. Banded Dragonite holds great synergy with Lucario, allowing Lucario to switch into moves that Dragonite cannot take. Scarfed Mence is simply deadly and the best way to do so is to go and use Ice Shard or your Scarfer. However the opposing Scarfer will act as a huge set-up bait for your Lucario potentially calling good game for your opponent. It's hard and it requires great insight but Lucario is seriously an amazing Glass Cannon.

 

[spooky96]

But once those feasible requirements are meant, Lucario can destroy teams super quickly and can potentially pull a turn-around sweep.

Pretty much any powerful Pokemon can do that once that happens. Lucario isn't like the only Pokemon who can do that. Jus' sayin'

Putting in simple words, its a sweeper who desperately needs more team support than usual, because its so frail that its a clean OHKO from Foretress' Rapid Spin.

 

[TaBuu]

"Pretty much any powerful Pokemon can do that once that happens. Lucario isn't like the only Pokemon who can do that. Jus' sayin'"
...Which is going towards of my point, that Lucario is a dangerous threat just like Terrakion, Landorus or Salamence are in their own rights.
The support that it needs is not even that immense either. It requires Stealth Rock just like any other offensive Pokemon out there. It requires a teammate to break past defensive Pokemon that can wall a certain variant. And that's that. It really doesn't require too much more than what is usual, whatever usual is supposed to mean.

Yeah he's frail but he's got a lot of moves that he can set-up on:
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 55-64 (19.5 - 22.69%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 108-128 (38.29 - 45.39%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 36-43 (12.76 - 15.24%) -- possible 7HKO
252 Atk Sand Force Landorus Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario in sand: 46-54 (16.31 - 19.14%) -- possible 6HKO
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 102-121 (36.17 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 92-109 (32.62 - 38.65%) -- 99.39% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 74-87 (26.24 - 30.85%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 37-44 (13.12 - 15.6%) -- possible 7HKO

+6 252+ Atk Choice Band Forretress Rapid Spin vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 75-88 (26.59 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO: Good one

 

[spooky96]

I'm not going to debate for long, but I would say that there are better late gamers. Look at Thundurus-T. Agility/Thunderbolt/Focus Blast/Hidden Power Ice. Agility + 145 + Modest. Pretty much everything is OHKO'ed. It may lack any priority moves, but nothing is outspeeding Thundurus now except for priority moves - Bullet Punch and Mach Punch which it both resists. Because of the overall move coverage, it requires much less teammate (this was the support I was talking about) support than Lucario.

Gliscor walls you all day if you lack Ice Punch, Jelly walls all day if you lack Crunch. These are the examples, you'll just need to pair it up with another Pokemon such as T-tar. While on the other hand Pokemon like Thundurus can KO or at the worse do some hefty damage to your enemy, its never like its completely walled and you'll just have to switch out (Very, very rare).

I'm not a Thundurus fan, just making a comparison to show the flaws which are in Lucario.

+6 252+ Atk Choice Band Forretress Rapid Spin vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 75-88 (26.59 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO: Good one

I hope you took my previous post about Rapid Spin as a joke, well despite you mentioning this I still think you took it as a joke.


BOTTOM LINE - Lucario is a great late game sweeper, needs slightly more team support to beat your opponent. Its powerful STAB and priority makes it hard to revenge kill, but as said before like 100 times, you can't punch through everything, unlike most other sweepers/late game sweepers.

 

[Halcyon.]

I'm not going to debate for long, but I would say that there are better late gamers. Look at Thundurus-T. Agility/Thunderbolt/Focus Blast/Hidden Power Ice. Agility + 145 + Modest. Pretty much everything is OHKO'ed. It may lack any priority moves, but nothing is outspeeding Thundurus now except for priority moves - Bullet Punch and Mach Punch which it both resists. Because of the overall move coverage, it requires much less teammate (this was the support I was talking about) support than Lucario.

Gliscor walls you all day if you lack Ice Punch, Jelly walls all day if you lack Crunch. These are the examples, you'll just need to pair it up with another Pokemon such as T-tar. While on the other hand Pokemon like Thundurus can KO or at the worse do some hefty damage to your enemy, its never like its completely walled and you'll just have to switch out (Very, very rare).

I'm not a Thundurus fan, just making a comparison to show the flaws which are in Lucario.

+6 252+ Atk Choice Band Forretress Rapid Spin vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 75-88 (26.59 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO: Good one

I hope you took my previous post about Rapid Spin as a joke, well despite you mentioning this I still think you took it as a joke.


BOTTOM LINE - Lucario is a great late game sweeper, needs slightly more team support to beat your opponent. Its powerful STAB and priority makes it hard to revenge kill, but as said before like 100 times, you can't punch through everything, unlike most other sweepers/late game sweepers.

And Blissey, Chansey, and Gastrodon hard wall Thundurus-T all day. What's your point? In not saying Lucario is better than Thundurus-T at all, just that Lucario IS fantastic, and should be getting the usage he is. Thundurus-T is also weak to Ice Shard. The only priority that Lucario would fear is Mach Punch from Breloom, but +2 Espeed OHKOs Breloom after Rocks. The point is, both have their pros and cons, and I would agree that Thundurus-T is probably better at sweeping, but that doesn't mean Lucario isn't fantastic.

 

[TaBuu]

"Lucario is a great late game sweeper"
Debate closed :]
I got you to say what I wanted you to say lol
It's quite funny though as you seem to compliment him at his excellence but at the same time belittle him with his flaws...I'm not to sure of what to make this....
And yes. I was obviously kidding around...

 

[spooky96]

And Blissey, Chansey, and Gastrodon hard wall Thundurus-T all day. What's your point? In not saying Lucario is better than Thundurus-T at all, just that Lucario IS fantastic, and should be getting the usage he is. Thundurus-T is also weak to Ice Shard. The only priority that Lucario would fear is Mach Punch from Breloom, but +2 Espeed OHKOs Breloom after Rocks. The point is, both have their pros and cons, and I would agree that Thundurus-T is probably better at sweeping, but that doesn't mean Lucario isn't fantastic.

I did say "Very, very rare", because Blissey, Chansey and Gastrodon (Some carry Grass Knot to deal with Gastrodon and Rotom) has relatively much less usage than Jelly or Gliscor. You yourself would know how frequently you see, besides Gliscor ranked #17 this month. Alright so you removed Move X, and let Ice Punch in. Now once again quite a few Pokemon wall you.

In any case, no Pokemon is flawless, everything has counters and checks no matter what you are. The only thing is that Lucario is often walled (by common stuff), this is the reason I haven't used it much in today's metagame, and probably the reason why it lingers in the late 30s or early 40s.

And lol, I didn't say Lucario is bad either. I did say its a great late game sweeper.

 

[HabibsHotDogs]

Lol @ the Lucario arguments.. The whole point of picking your coverage move is to use a move that fits with the rest of your team.

In general terms:

Wallbreaking - Crunch, bonus is that there are very very little walls that can tank Lucario's movepool at +2
Terrakion/Gengar trouble? - Bullet punch, bonus is you also defeat Kyu-B after SR, all Mamoswine and scarf Tyranitar.
Need to lure Landorus-T? - Ice punch

In less general terms:

You can use a Gothitelle with HP ice to take out Landorus-T and Gliscor and lucario often has physical buddies/pokes that give 0 fucks about Land/Glisc anyway (ie Gengar, Latios, Dragonite, Volcarona are all good Lucario partners). Therefore ice punch is the least important of the three moves.

So it comes down to whether you want to wall break or your team struggles against Terrakion and Gengar which can ruin your sweep.

 

[TaBuu]

Salamence has honestly fallen such a long way down...
We need to bring this guy back up everyone! An amazing Choice Scarf set that can utilize Moxie, BW2 OU's best Dragon Dancer, and the incredible Mixmence really can still shine in this Metagame!

 

[G-Von]

Salamence has honestly fallen such a long way down...
We need to bring this guy back up everyone! An amazing Choice Scarf set that can utilize Moxie, BW2 OU's best Dragon Dancer, and the incredible Mixmence really can still shine in this Metagame!

I remember when MoxieMence w/ Outrage+DD came out with BW2 and spamming the shit out of it with a Lum Berry. It was just so easy to do and to be honest, I have no idea why I even stopped using it. Seriously, what's not named BalloonRan and willing to switch into a Salamence?

 

[Halcyon.]

I remember when MoxieMence w/ Outrage+DD came out with BW2 and spamming the shit out of it with a Lum Berry. It was just so easy to do and to be honest, I have no idea why I even stopped using it. Seriously, what's not named BalloonRan and willing to switch into a Salamence?

I remember that. It was amazing. But because everyone was running the two Therians that we thought were good at the time (Thundurus-T and Tornadus-T) in addition to that Salamence, Mamoswine's usage skyrocketed. When that happened, people stopped using them as much. Hell, look at Thundurus-T. I STILL think he needs to be in the top 15. But people are scared to use them for some odd reason.

 

[Tassa]

Hell yeah. I used a DDLumMixMoxMence with DD/Outrage/Earthquake/FB in my team for the Deo-D suspect and it was soooo funny once Moxie started. A lot of opponent expect Scarf, so they send often their steel take Outrage (or expecting locking you on move easy to abuse), when you DD...
Though Sableye was even funnier in this team.

My main problem with Mence (bar that there are too much ice weaknesses and choice is hard) is that you know that even at +1 speed you're not safe against 3 very common scarf (Keldeo/Terrakion/Latios) and you want absolutely them out or the opportunity to go at +2. Myself, I killed numerous ScarfMence or DDMence with that.

 

[Tressed]

I remember that. It was amazing. But because everyone was running the two Therians that we thought were good at the time (Thundurus-T and Tornadus-T) in addition to that Salamence, Mamoswine's usage skyrocketed. When that happened, people stopped using them as much. Hell, look at Thundurus-T. I STILL think he needs to be in the top 15. But people are scared to use them for some odd reason.

No doubt Salamence and Thundurus-T are monsters, but they don't see usage because of Mamoswine, which easily beats both of them, and Stealth Rock, which is on nearly every team in existence. Having a quarter of your health gone for switching in sucks, and I know that I think of that whenever I look at either of them.