CAP 16 CAP 5 - Part 10 - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

[blitzlefan]

Agility / Autotomize / Rock Polish: It's probably been reiterated, but Malaconda really shouldn't be boosting its speed. Malaconda is already strapped for moveslots, and wasting one to increase its Speed is simply a waste. I really don't see how Speed boosting moves will make Malaconda a better pivot or assist sun except for allowing it to become a bulky attacker, which we don't want. Furthermore, this combined with Baton Pass would be very much against the original concept. Disallow Speed-boosting moves.

Baton Pass / Ingrain: Rather again Baton Pass really. Baton Pass is basically the same thing as switching out, seeing as nothing can really trap Malaconda due to its typing. Dugtrio is KO'd (or 2HKO'd with a Focus Sash) but Dugtrio won't come in on Malaconda anyway. Neither will Gothitelle. Pursuit won't affect it either. So all Baton Pass really does is dry switching + pass on stat boosts, which we don't particularly want. Using Malaconda as a Baton Passer with some sort of berry seems like a waste of its potential. Ingrain in my eyes is just an inferior Leech Seed. However, it means Malaconda can't switch out, rendering it no longer a useless pivot. For these reason, Disallow Baton Pass / Ingrain.

Glare / Stun Spore / Thunder Wave: I don't really see how being able to spread Paralysis will make Malaconda OP. However, it will provide much needed support for Sun teams. However, we should realize that the more we boost Sun with Malaconda, the more unfavorable weatherless becomes, which may affect the metagame negatively. If we're just focusing on how Malaconda will affect Rain vs. Sun however, I think that Thunder Wave (Glare really seems like it's being supported for flavor reasons, though people might not want to admit it) will be okay on Malaconda. Furthermore, it helps deter set-up sweepers somewhat better than Taunt does, as it makes Speed increases from Dragon Dance, Quiver Dance, etc. useless and allows for easier revenge killing on something that's been boosting in your face. Allow Paralysis moves.

Spikes: Malaconda could be useful to Sun in this, but again, it has pretty bad 4MSS. Spikes would allow Malaconda to take upon more roles (and we all know that Forretress loses a lot of momentum), so this could help assimilate some roles into one. I'm assuming with Spikes, the set would go something like this: Power Whip / Payback / Spikes / Rest, making it a Ferrothorn of the Sun, rather beneficial to Sun teams, but can be taken down with boosted Fire moves. Oops... the more I think, the more I'm starting to like Spikes. Allow Spikes.

Yawn: Ugh... being able to spread Sleep while having obnoxious status moves and the such. Pass. We already have reliable phazing in Dragon Tail / Roar (which I think we allowed?), so Yawn is inferior and adds sleep into the mix of things Malaconda can do. Disallow Yawn.

 

[Theorymon]

Not in the mood to make a giant post of doom so I'm only gonna talk about Spikes since that's the only one I have a somewhat strong opinion on.

Spikes

Some people have mentioned how Spikes is more of a "general good move" instead of something that directly helps sun. While that's true, I think Spikes should be allowed on this CAP for a different reason: While it doesn't directly help sun, IT DOES let Malaconda become a bigger threat to rain. Spikes is pretty much a move that allows Malaconda to punish some teams that think they can just out momentum it. For example, lets say Politoed thinks "I can take one Pursuit, and use Scizor and pals to screw around with Malaconda the rest of the match". If you Spikes on the switch, you can either put pressure on the opponent to Rapid Spin them away before the team takes too much damage from them (aka you are more in control of the match), or, if the opponent doesn't have a spinner, the rain team isn't going to be able to switch around as freely. So TL;DR: While Spikes doesn't directly help Sun in a special way, it does punish Malaconda's checks in a way that can allow it to have a more widely felt impact on the match. This makes these Pokémon more of a liability, which could potentially lower their usage, and indirectly help sun against its problems.

 

[ginganinja]

So basically, Spikes makes it even harder to check Malaconda? Is that the arguement or am I misreading it.

The issue there, is that when you are up against say, a sand team, Spikes is going to affect the usage of ITS members as well. Suddenly, beating Sun, becomes 10 times harder because you standard sun checks have to a) beat Malaconda b) actually be able to switch into Malaconda, while avoiding a status move or Power Whip / Crunch, c) avoid being Dugtrio bait and d) not be wrecked by spikes.

Already, thats a pretty darn small list, especially when its darn hard to spin on it. Its like Stamrie spinning on Ferrothorn, sure its getting the spin off, but its dying in the attempt. The difference being that in this case, "Ferrothorn" happens to have access to a 100% healing move with no drawbacks. Like idk guys, it just seems like suns already difficult to handle, giving Malaconda spikes is just one more thing that threatens to totally and utterly break sunlight.

 

[Deck Knight]

We're losing sight of moves in combination here, and on filling roles in sun teams.

Spikes vs. Spin:

ONE of these two moves should be allowed, and my preference is for Spin because it does more to help Ninetales and Fire-types than it does for generic support. Giving it both means we're creating a generic support Pokemon that replaces Forretress in many ways, and on many teams.

Giving it Spikes means we want to replace Forretress as a Spiker, giving it Spin means we want to replace Forretress or Donphan as a Spinner. I'd prefer to replace the Spinner, as then we can go to a quicker, less-fire weak Spiker like Roserade, Crustle, or possibly even Omastar or Cloyster.

Therefore Allow Spikes OR Spin on a final competitive movepool, but not both at once.

Baton Pass vs. Stat-Moves:

Baton Pass is really only a gimmick strategy if the only move it can pass is Substitute. If we allow Malaconda any of the +2 speed-boosting attacks still on the discussion list, we have effectively made it a speed passer to all teams, and given Substitute and a pinch berry it will quite easily be able to pass +2 Offense /+2 Speed to any ally. This is another instance where I think an either-or proposition is needed.

I'm still opposed to Baton Pass on the grounds that Sun teams have no use for a Baton Passer and it does not fill up any of a sun team's slots. U-turn makes it infinitely more threatening to the Latis, which were one of our prime targets. Babying Balloon Heatran (a Pokemon which we consider to be a partner in a sun-team anyway, if not that set) is not a serious reason to believe U-turn should be supplanted by Baton Pass.

However I would state emphatically that should Baton Pass be allowed, it should be under the condition we Allow Baton Pass or Speed Boosters on a final competitive movepool, but not both at once.

Niche passing (Magnet Rise / Ingrain) is interesting, and Ingrain is the more powerful of the two, but those are less utilitarian because only dedicated Baton Pass teams can't have Ingrain backfire on them, and Magnet Rise is a temporary effect Malacondo derives no benefit from personally, being resistant to Ground in the first place.

Paralysis Moves Redux:

The way we've been talking about Malaconda it has 4MSS to infinity. Paralysis moves perform something useful for sun teams in that, outside Sun, all of their Pokemon are pretty slow relative to the metagame, the sole exception being Dugtrio. Paralysis allows it to take those threats down a peg, and does nothing to seriously hamper counters like Scizor and Ferrothorn. Heck, Gyro Ball Ferrothorn enjoys being paralyzed because it essentially maximized Gyro Ball's BP on everything. Paralysis also cripples the Latis and Terrakion, two other big threats to sun, while doing nothing to Toxic Orb Breloom should it switch in on something other than the paralysis move.

One last thing on the Sitrus-Stall thing:

Substitute does not have infinite PP. You cannot stall "infinitely", you can stall for 32 Turns at best, and you aren't dealing any damage your opponent can't switch out of to avoid except when using Foul Play. Your opponent KNOWS you will Substitute every action you determine a threat of attack or do not have a Substitute, so they can easily switch to one of their faster Pokemon with Taunt or Substitute to deal with it. The strategy has more holes than a case of Swiss cheese.

In DPP I once ran a stall team with Toxic Spikes Forretress, BP Aqua Ring Vaporeon, and PressureStall Taunt Aerodactyl. As beautiful as it was to watch my opponents lose all their PP to that Aerodactyl and be taken out by a combination of Rock Slide flinches, Pressure Stall, and Taunt to prevent phazing, believe me you can wear thin on PP fast with just one PP draining move. My Aero had two (Sub/Protect), Pressure to double opponent's attacking PP loss, and Taunt as a further move limiter, and I still would run down a lot of PP using it.

 

[Xiom]

I think Yawn should be allowed. So far a majority of the posts discussing it have dismissed it as an inferior phazing move to Roar/Whirlwind or lumped it together with other sleep moves. Neither are a particular good reason for disallowing it.

For it to put anything to sleep your opponent has to stay in, which means unless the "forced" switch is worse than taking a sleep you wont get put to sleep. Therefore the argument should be about whether forcing a switch is deemed not fit for the concept.

Best thing Yawn could accomplish is using it along with U-turn/Baton Pass to get switch initiative on the next pokemon they bring out while racking up hazard damage. Or possibly use Yawn repeatedly on the switch in until your opponent has to put one pokemon of their choice to sleep. One thing to note is that if your opponent switches in anything with U-Turn both of the above strategies fail. Especially because of our 4x Weakness to U-Turn. I'd argue that almost any other pokemon that gets yawn is a better user of it than malaconda.

 

[alexwolf]

Not in the mood to make a giant post of doom so I'm only gonna talk about Spikes since that's the only one I have a somewhat strong opinion on.

Spikes

Some people have mentioned how Spikes is more of a "general good move" instead of something that directly helps sun. While that's true, I think Spikes should be allowed on this CAP for a different reason: While it doesn't directly help sun, IT DOES let Malaconda become a bigger threat to rain. Spikes is pretty much a move that allows Malaconda to punish some teams that think they can just out momentum it. For example, lets say Politoed thinks "I can take one Pursuit, and use Scizor and pals to screw around with Malaconda the rest of the match". If you Spikes on the switch, you can either put pressure on the opponent to Rapid Spin them away before the team takes too much damage from them (aka you are more in control of the match), or, if the opponent doesn't have a spinner, the rain team isn't going to be able to switch around as freely. So TL;DR: While Spikes doesn't directly help Sun in a special way, it does punish Malaconda's checks in a way that can allow it to have a more widely felt impact on the match. This makes these Pokémon more of a liability, which could potentially lower their usage, and indirectly help sun against its problems.

Theyrymon your post makes it sounds as if Malaconda doesn't have anything else to do against a Scizor switch-in in rain if we don't give it Spikes, but this is not true. Malaconda can use U-turn to gain momentum, Dragon Tail to get SR + a bit of damage, use Heal Bell to heal the team, or just use Rapid Spin to help the whole team. Point is, Malaconda already has plenty of things to do to support the whole team, even without Spikes, and Spikes have no real connection with Malaconda's role, otherwise than that they are good for every single Pokemon in existence.

 

[Bughouse]

Deck Knight, I simply don't get your fear of allowing Spikes and Spin together. What Malaconda set would ever use both together? If it does so, it forfeits an attack or recovery, neither of which Malaconda can do comfortably.

4MSS. It's not having spikes, spin, u-turn, rest, power whip, and darkstab all at once.

(But we should give users the option to replace the momentum-draining forry)

 

[capefeather]

I have allowed Baton Pass because I think that the concerns supporting it have to be addressed this way while most of the concerns against it don't. Namely, the Speed boosters and Ingrain have been disallowed due to concerns about them being used in conjunction with Baton Pass. I didn't really think that I'd disallow Speed boosters before paralysis moves, but here we are. I would take the suggestion to do some kind of complex ban, but I just don't think that Speed boosters or Ingrain are really worth doing that.

Yawn has been allowed due to it being really a poor man's phazing move. Sun teams already have better sleep moves to employ if they want, and it just doesn't seem like Yawn will change that situation.

This brings us to the paralysis moves and Spikes. I was considering a lot of things for each. There's a fairly strong case to disallow paralysis moves, but it doesn't seem to be really anti-concept, nor does it really have more potential than some of the existing allowed moves, other than permanently screwing over some of Malaconda's faster checks. On the other hand, by making it controversial I'm pretty sure it's going to be voted allowed... Spikes has an easier case for being controversial, but I do think that the concerns about it being too much of a generic power-up need to be addressed better. I suppose a lot of it has to do with the perceived power of Harvest in comparison to the Steel typing that most of the other Spikers have. An alternative is to complex-ban it with Rapid Spin, as Deck Knight has proposed.

I'm giving this thread 24 hours unless some other really big discussion happens that needs to go over that mark.

 

[jas61292]

A few more words on paralysis. Looking at the arguments in favor of it, I feel like people are losing track of what we are really trying to do. Much of the reasoning involves simply doing things that sun generally appreciates, but most of this is completely in opposition to the role we want to play on the team. The Pokemon it helps beat are not ones we particularly want to deal with, and most of the ones we want to beat are not particulatly dealt with by paralysis, or at least not any more than with the options we already have. It also seems to me that many of the supporters of paralysis moves are trying to use Malaconda's precieved four moveslot syndrome as reasoning, which is really no reason at all. If your argument in favor of a move is simply that it probably won't even use it, and that move is one that many other people are saying is bad for the concept, your argument is rather invalid.

With all this said, I will not deny that these moves are controversial. However, judging the competitive worth of the arguments, I feel the anti-paralysis side has the stronger case. Yet, while I do try and have faith in the competitive values of the community, I would bet almost anything that, if put to a vote, Glare would be allowed, practically for flavor reasons alone. In that light, I would personally reccommend disallowing Glare and Thunder Wave, but letting there be a vote on Stun Spore. Stun Spore is not as powerful a move as either of the other two, but it is certainly good enough to be competitive. Anything that the pro-paralysis side wants can be provided by Stun Spore, but it lacks the guarenteed (or near guarenteed) crippling effect that many people are quite worried about, and does not have the flavor implications of glare making a vote on it much more likely to be representitive to a competitive concensus.

Also, a word on Spikes. I certainly understand people's concerns about them, but I fear that what Deck Knight proposed in an essentially complex ban with Rapid Spin totally defeats the purpose. One of our goals was to replace a current sun team member, in addition to beating what we want to threaten, so as to free up space on the team. If our job is to replace Foretress as a Spinner, then having spikes, but not being able to use them on a spin set, makes it harder to fill that role. I'm not saying that we should definitely have them, but if we do, the inability to actually use them on the set we would want them on makes it rather pointless to have in the first place.

 

[jynx KB]

I do have to (dis)respectfully disagree with disallowing spikes, and jas61292 has the perfect reason why.

It's not like we're making the previous spinners irrelevant either. Foretress still gets Toxic Spikes, while Donphan gets Stealth Rock. If Malaconda gets neither, people will have to choose their hazards to go with their spinner. And in part of the assessment stage, part of the concept was condensing roles to free up team slots. I may be missing something, but with so much support for moves being disallowed, I have trouble seeing what Malaconda CAN do at this point.

Which leads me to Ingrain. I like it, especially in conjunction with Baton Pass, for one reason. Sun Stall, particularly as almost a Sun equivalent to Rain Dish, which Sun really doesn't have (Synthesis and Moonlight I guess)

It might be a guilty pleasure, as I would like to see something other than Smeargle utilize the trick, but I do think it has it's merits, especially with the potential weakness of being locked into a bad switch. Risk vs Reward right?

 

[alexwolf]

Ok let me address the ''if we replace Forretress with Malaconda on sun teams, we need to give Malaconda Spikes'' argument. We are not replacing just Forretress with Malaconda. We are replacing every Pokemon used on Sun teams for hazard control, such as Donphan, Xatu, and even Starmie. Xatu and Starmie both don't have any hazards and still see use on sun teams, while Donphan has Stealth Rock which is already disallowed.

Furthermore, saying ''Forretress spins and Malaconda spins, Forretress has Spikes and Malaconda doesn't, so Malaconda won't succeed in sun teams'' is very poor reasoning and disregards all other traits of those Pokemon. Are you forgetting that Malaconda can deal with other problems of sun teams, such as Lati@s and Water-type, against which Forretress can do nothing? Are you forgetting that Malaconda is much harder to set-up due to better STABs and better Atk? Are you forgetting that Malaconda can act as a cleric, phazer, and Pursuit trapper? And are you forgetting how much of a shitty spinner Forretress is, and how much of a good one Malaconda will be? So even without Spikes, Malaconda will have more overall value than Forretress for sun teams. If sun teams still want Spikes, they are perfectly free to use Deoxys-D or another suicide lead. It's not as if sun offense teams can really take advantage of Spikes, as they lack the teamslots for a spinblocker, meaning that the effort to set them up will often be wasted if the opponent has a rapid spinner. Sun offense teams are just fine with only SR, and it has always been this way, so i honeslty i am surprised by how many people want Spikes on the CAP.

To me it seems that some people just saw an opportunity of giving to the CAP an overall excellent move that isn't particularly tied to the CAP's role at all and said ''Sure why not''. Your average sun team almost never uses Spikes and just because people saw an opporutnity for Malaconda to get them, we see reactions such as ''Forretress has Spikes and is a spinner used on sun teams, so the same should happen with Malaconda in order for her to be good''. I am honestly disappointed by how little knowledge some people here have about the sun playstyle, asking for things that sun never really wanted in the first place.

And just for the record, here are the most successful sun teams of BW and BW2 in the RMT subforum: Highway to Hell, Eruption, Solar Vengeance, Burning Bright, Simulation of a Drought, French Orgy with Belzebuth, and Lysergic Acid Diethylamide. How many of them use Spikes? ZERO!

 

[Agent Gibbs]

alexwolf, why are you so hostile towards Spikes and so accepting of moves like U-turn, Dragon Tail, and Heal Bell? What is it about those moves that fits Sun teams so much better than Spikes? I really don't see why you're so hostile towards Spikes except that it doesn't scream "Sunmon" to you. Not to mention that just because we allow it doesn't mean it's guaranteed to be on the CAP.

Also, of those teams you posted, guess how many have Heal Bell or a phazing move apart from Ninetales (who is obviously going to be on a Sun team with Malaconda anyways)? None.

 

[alexwolf]

alexwolf, why are you so hostile towards Spikes and so accepting of moves like U-turn, Dragon Tail, and Heal Bell? What is it about those moves that fits Sun teams so much better than Spikes? I really don't see why you're so hostile towards Spikes except that it doesn't scream "Sunmon" to you. Not to mention that just because we allow it doesn't mean it's guaranteed to be on the CAP.

Also, of those teams you posted, guess how many have Heal Bell or a phazing move apart from Ninetales (who is obviously going to be on a Sun team with Malaconda anyways)? None.

There are two major differences. First, Heal Bell, U-turn, and Dragon Tail all are general much less useful moves than Spikes. By giving them to the CAP we have less danger of turning the CAP into a monstrous supporter and thus less danger of breaking sun. On the other hand they are all useful moves that benefit the CAP, as they would benefit any support Pokemon. So in this case benefit > downsides.

The second difference is that those moves are more tied to the CAP's role than Spikes. U-turn allows to preserve momentum, which unlike Spikes, is something that every sun team appreciates. Heal Bell helps the CAP to better deal with Water-types when not running RestLum, and finally Dragon Tail allows the CAP to deal with SubCM Latias even when not running Dark STAB and makes it less set-up bait for dangerous threats that could eat sun teams alive.

 

[Brambane]

alexwolf, you forgot .dancin, which does use Spikes and is a sunstall team, more than likely where CAP5 will feel most at home. So don't say/imply "successful sun teams don't use Spikes," because that is simply erroneous.

 

[alexwolf]

alexwolf, you forgot .dancin, which does use Spikes and is a sunstall team, more than likely where CAP5 will feel most at home. So don't say/imply "successful sun teams don't use Spikes," because that is simply erroneous.

I imply that sun teams rarely use Spikes and thus don't really have the need for it. If you want so badly to create a sun stall team with Malaconda then Deoxys-D and Forretress are still options. But giving to Malaconda Spikes just so that it can fit better on a playstyle that you like and is not even common right now doesn't seem like good way of thinking to me. I prefer building the CAP with sun offense in mind, the playstyle that defines sun teams, instead of building it based on a playstyle that is very rare and hard to use in this metagame.

 

[Vann Accessible]

I do have to (dis)respectfully disagree with disallowing spikes, and jas61292 has the perfect reason why.

It's not like we're making the previous spinners irrelevant either. Foretress still gets Toxic Spikes, while Donphan gets Stealth Rock. If Malaconda gets neither, people will have to choose their hazards to go with their spinner. And in part of the assessment stage, part of the concept was condensing roles to free up team slots. I may be missing something, but with so much support for moves being disallowed, I have trouble seeing what Malaconda CAN do at this point.

That comment made me laugh. Just because might Malaconda wind up not getting spin AND spikes, that doesn't make it bad. It means if you want both on the same mon, then use Forretress. Malaconda doesn't have to do EVERYTHING Forretress can. Malaconda already has a trillion different roles at this point Forry could only dream of:

Bulky attacker
Choice Band Infiltrator
Rain counter
Slow pivot
Priority/revenge killer
Pursuit trapper
Mean Look trapper
Status cleric
P/hazer
Wall breaker (Super Fang)
Late game clean up/suicide bonder (Custap)
Suicide healer (Healing Wish)
Utility counter (Taunt/Encore)
Tormenter
Toxic/Heal Stall
Sun summon
Spinner
Item remover (Knock Off)
Boost/sub/rise passer

Out of that list, Forry can do three of these.


I'm still unconvinced he needs Spikes, but can't really see any reason to disallow it either. Personally since sun's such an aggressive play style, 9 times out of 10, sun team wouldn't use it. Even stopping to use SR seems unnecessary sometimes.

As for paralysis, jas's idea reaches a happy medium. Maybe Stun Spore is the way to go...

 

[Agent Gibbs]

There are two major differences. First, Heal Bell, U-turn, and Dragon Tail all are general much less useful moves than Spikes. By giving them to the CAP we have less danger of turning the CAP into a monstrous supporter and thus less danger of breaking sun. On the other hand they are all useful moves that benefit the CAP, as they would benefit any support Pokemon. So in this case benefit > downsides.

But like you said yourself, many Sun teams don't have much use for Spikes. Heck, you even said that unlike momentum, Spikes isn't even something every Sun team can appreciate. You also said that Sun teams might not even find room for a spin-blocker, so they're not going to be able to keep them up long if the opponent has a spinner. All that said, I don't think we'll need to worry about breaking Sun by giving Malaconda Spikes if many Sun teams does have much use for Spikes in the first place and can't reliably keep them on the field.

Also, Deoxys-D is banned, just throwing that out there.

 

[alexwolf]

But like you said yourself, many Sun teams don't have much use for Spikes. Heck, you even said that unlike momentum, Spikes isn't even something every Sun team can appreciate. You also said that Sun teams might not even find room for a spin-blocker, so they're not going to be able to keep them up long if the opponent has a spinner. All that said, I don't think we'll need to worry about breaking Sun by giving Malaconda Spikes if many Sun teams does have much use for Spikes in the first place and can't reliably keep them on the field.

Also, Deoxys-D is banned, just throwing that out there.

While it is true that Sun teams don't generally have much use for Spikes, they could easily use them when they come in the awesome package that is called Malaconda. Rapid Spin + Spikes + Water spam protection + Pursuit support + Lati@s insurance + enhanced pivoting ability with low speed and U-turn + cleric support + phazing + priority which sun usually lacks. These are all the supporting tools that Malaconda will have if we allow Spikes. And i don't want to hear stupid comments such as ''it will have 4 mss'' as any good player knows that versatility plays a big role on a Pokemon's power. So it won't be about how many of those moves will Malaconda be able to fit on one set, it will be about how many different sets Malaconda will be able to use to support sun teams, and thus how well the metagame will respond to sun's increased versatility. One thing that sun teams have right now and keeps them in check is how one-sided they are, which makes preparing for them somewhat easier. Take that away and you have a serious problem.

 

[jas61292]

Also, Deoxys-D is banned, just throwing that out there.

Just want to put it out there for anyone who does not know this already: CAP projects are made for the metagame that existed at the start of the project. This means that Defense Deoxys will be usable for the playtest and should be taken into consideration for this project.

 

[Bughouse]

I imply that sun teams rarely use Spikes and thus don't really have the need for it. If you want so badly to create a sun stall team with Malaconda then Deoxys-D and Forretress are still options. But giving to Malaconda Spikes just so that it can fit better on a playstyle that you like and is not even common right now doesn't seem like good way of thinking to me. I prefer building the CAP with sun offense in mind, the playstyle that defines sun teams, instead of building it based on a playstyle that is very rare and hard to use in this metagame.

Wait, so we should be giving help to the playstyle that according to many good players is "borderline broken" but NOT to the playstyle that is rare and hard to use? That makes no sense.

You know what Sun Offense can't afford to run? Momentum killing things such as slow spike-stacking. There's a reason that the offensive teams you posted used Spikes. Even when Forretress was on the team it was being used almost purely as a Rapid Spinner and not a hazard setter. I mean jeez if Spikes were so good on Sun, Deo-D would have been everywhere on Sun. It wasn't.

So basically, you'll agree that Spikes helps a rarer and harder to use playstyle more than anything, yet you oppose it. That makes sense.

 

[alexwolf]

Wait, so we should be giving help to the playstyle that according to many good players is "borderline broken" but NOT to the playstyle that is rare and hard to use? That makes no sense.

You know what Sun Offense can't afford to run? Momentum killing things such as slow spike-stacking. There's a reason that the offensive teams you posted used Spikes. Even when Forretress was on the team it was being used almost purely as a Rapid Spinner and not a hazard setter. I mean jeez if Spikes were so good on Sun, Deo-D would have been everywhere on Sun. It wasn't.

So basically, you'll agree that Spikes helps a rarer and harder to use playstyle more than anything, yet you oppose it. That makes sense.

It makes sense when you take into account that sun is an entity that revolves around Ninetales. Right now sun is where it is with sun offense having x potential and sun stall having y potential. As of now, x + y does not equal to z, where z= the amount of potential/power something must have in order for it to get banned. Now if you were to slightly increase x (which is our aim) and greatly increase y (which could happen if Malaconda gets Spikes), you realize that the danger of reaching z greatly increases right?

Not only this, but as i said again i am sure that if sun offense gets a Pokemon so multi-purpose and versatile as Malaconda (Malaconda with Spikes) it will have the slots to fit a spinblocker and make Spikes work.

 

[Unoriginal Name]

It makes sense when you take into account that sun is an entity that revolves around Ninetales. Right now sun is where it is with sun offense having x potential and sun stall having y potential. As of now, x + y does not equal to z, where z= the amount of potential/power something must have in order for it to get banned. Now if you were to slightly increase x (which is our aim) and greatly increase y (which could happen if Malaconda gets Spikes), you realize that the danger of reaching z greatly increases right?

Not only this, but as i said again i am sure that if sun offense gets a Pokemon so multi-purpose and versatile as Malaconda (Malaconda with Spikes) it will have the slots to fit a spinblocker and make Spikes work.

The problem with this logic is, what Sun Offense and Stall are combined is not nearly as significant as what they are apart. It's like saying that, though Rain and Sun and Sand and whatnot isn't quite broken yet, all weather types added together are- you can't bundle them together, as they are different playstyles entirely. Sure, same abusers maybe, or same technical catagory, but we don't ban things because, though its individual parts are not broken, they areif you add them up.

Spikes won't be breaking Sun Stall anytime soon. Spikes won't be breaking Sun Offense anytime soon. If you lump the two together, it might be broken; however, you really can't logically do that. Sun is a catagory, a team focus, but not an entire playstyle in itself- it has subdivisions, which you can't combine together and use that as grounds for calling one subdivision in a whole broken. If they aren't connected much in playstyle, how are they all of a sudden connected due to a name?

tl;dr X and Y have no reason to be added to Z. They are seperate figures, not bound to each other completely.

Edit: I forgot to mention this, but I'm not saying I do or don't want Spikes. I'm currently neutral on the subject, and really have no major qualms either way. Just poking holes in your argument, as, really, people shouldn't consider Sun Stall and Offense as the same entity, which they seem to have been doing as of late, and it's not just you.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Spikes are not a necessity for Sun Offense, but are definitely more appreciated on Sun Stall, although the latter of those two playstyles is rather rare. I would like to point out that we assume Malaconda will make Sun Stall a more viable style of play, but I'm not sure that one Pokemon will elevate Sun Stall to the same plane as Sun Offense or even Rain Stall. Malaconda has very few teammates to work with on Sun Stall teams, as there are very few great defensive Pokemon that have synergy well with Sun. There are Pokemon such as Donphan and Forretress, sure, but none of them have reliable recovery and Malaconda isn't able to use Wish to keep its team in top shape. Sun has to resort to the mometum-nuking Blissey/Chansey to keep its team in good shape, and it still has problems with high-strength Special attackers who can set up on Blissey/Chansey and Focus Blast right through the Sun Stall team. I'm not sure if Malaconda will really make Sun Stall too great a playstyle, and I have not been offering my opinions with Sun Stall at the forefront of my mind so far.

What I think Malaconda will do is make Sun Offense and more balanced Sun a more durable style of play. Instead of relying on Dugtrio, Ninetales, a third-rate wall, and some frail, probably SR-weak attackers (which is most Sun teams btw), Sun will have a bona fide defensive pivot in Malaconda. Not all offensive teams need momentum at all times, and no team in all of Pokemon will have the momentum throughout the entire match. Malaconda's role is to cancel the opponent's momentum by providing a full stop to many of the Pokemon that threaten it (looking at you, Latios/Latias).

I don't think Spikes will be a great move on Malaconda. Sun teams really don't like bulky Spiking, evidenced by the fact that few great Sun RMTs have used Spikes in recent history. However, Rain teams love bulky Spiking, and Spikes on Malaconda will make this Pokemon a serious contender for Rain's new wall. Why use Ferrothorn when you have a Grass-type Spiker with Scald immunity, the ability to beat Magnezone, and Earthquake resistance? Plus the ability to take repeated hits from Heatran in the Rain. Sun teams rarely use Spikes, and Sun Stall is not going to be a great playstyle even with Malaconda. Spikes should be disallowed.

 

[BrianFantana]

But like you said yourself, many Sun teams don't have much use for Spikes. Heck, you even said that unlike momentum, Spikes isn't even something every Sun team can appreciate. You also said that Sun teams might not even find room for a spin-blocker, so they're not going to be able to keep them up long if the opponent has a spinner. All that said, I don't think we'll need to worry about breaking Sun by giving Malaconda Spikes if many Sun teams does have much use for Spikes in the first place and can't reliably keep them on the field.

This reads like a perfect argument against Spikes. Your point is that Sun teams don't have much use for Spikes? The logical conclusion from that is that Spikes will earn Malaconda more places on teams without sun than with it. It is straight up harmful to the concept, which is based on usage; Malaconda's viability need not be tied to sun, but we should actively ensure we don't give it anything that will make it more attractive to other playstyles. I'm in favour of disallowing Spikes.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

This reads like a perfect argument against Spikes. Your point is that Sun teams don't have much use for Spikes? The logical conclusion from that is that Spikes will earn Malaconda more places on teams without sun than with it. It is straight up harmful to the concept, which is based on usage; Malaconda's viability need not be tied to sun, but we should actively ensure we don't give it anything that will make it more attractive to other playstyles. I'm in favour of disallowing Spikes.

No, I was merely repeating arguments made by others that Sun would not need Spikes. If you read what I was responding to then you'd see that my point was that on one side of this argument people have said that Spikes aren't appreciated by Sun and yet giving Spikes to Malaconda had the potential to break the playstyle. At that point the main argument I was hearing against Spikes is that it would break Sun, and so I was merely pointing out that this begs the question as to how it would break Sun if Sun wouldn't appreciate Spikes in the first place. alexwolf gave an answer to that, and DetroitLolcat also later addressed the issue of Spikes from a different standpoint.

Just to be clear, I don't really feel strongly about this either way. What I'm trying to do is not particularly argue for Spikes on Malaconda, but to get down to the details as to why there is opposition to such a move (innocent until proven guilty, if you will). I saw what seemed like a conflicting statement (i.e. Spikes are unappreciated by Sun and yet might break it on Malaconda) and I asked for clarification. While I do think Spikes would be a good tool for Malaconda, I am satisfied with the recent reasons I have hard against it.