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Counter that Pokemon - Mk IV [FINAL MATCH - Team 1 won!]
- Thread starter ganj4lF
- Start date
Lol, I just said to not do it, and...whatever, it's a small change, it doesn't matter this time; however, please don't do that in the future. Just think twice before submitting or do your edits before the start of the voting phase. Thank you!
Okay, sorry
Team 1 can pick gothitelle to trap gyarados, that's nice. But if the bulky one has a sub then it can just dragon tail you out while you break the sub. That's not the best for the gyarados user but using the other gyarados you get instatrapped and also you don't take hits aswell for the ability to use a one time heal move and a sweaper which will get stopped. Utility is a lot harder to counter than a sweaper. This is our first pick so there is no reason to pick a sweeper as there will be a counter if we do anything right. Utility is much better than sweeping with our first pick! Also my gyarados also can't be trapped very easily (sub d-
Tail), brings t-wave to stop fast sweapers setting up on it, has intimidate to cushion blows even if used as a death fodder and can counter pokes hitting from both sides (life orb Adament lucario's +1 cc never 2hkos after rocks and leftovers). Gyarados is never 3hkod by focus miss or hp ice after rocks and those attacks don't even break the sub. Offensive precense isn't everything as those pokes can be walled while momentum, sub, phasing, paralysing, sleep and hazards are all huge in this project. My gyarados has 3 of them so it'll be very hard to setup on it and also hard to switch in on it too.
Tail), brings t-wave to stop fast sweapers setting up on it, has intimidate to cushion blows even if used as a death fodder and can counter pokes hitting from both sides (life orb Adament lucario's +1 cc never 2hkos after rocks and leftovers). Gyarados is never 3hkod by focus miss or hp ice after rocks and those attacks don't even break the sub. Offensive precense isn't everything as those pokes can be walled while momentum, sub, phasing, paralysing, sleep and hazards are all huge in this project. My gyarados has 3 of them so it'll be very hard to setup on it and also hard to switch in on it too.
Neliel
Sacred Sword
Maybe yes, and maybe no. Gyarados will probably be trapped when landorus u-turns (theorymon but whatever) so your set doesnt change anything. Also you dont have recovery and with sr up + a substitute you have almost a 50% gyarados, so you will be unable to counter landorus the next time you will face it. Btw i agree with you that we should not chose a cleaner right now.
The Sub set isn't as durable due to the lack of rest and doesn't hit nearly as hard. Sub doesn't save it for the same reason Sub doesn't save TTar. Basically, Lando is just one of those picks that's going to screw the team, excellent work Team 1. We have some options, though, so we'll have to with those even if it is an uphill battle of sorts.
blitzlefan
shake it off!
A lot of defensive mons are "counters" but don't do much or have crippling flaws. Offensive ones aren't "counters" but can KO. Zapdos is a nice compromise I suppose. But the moveset is kind of lacking. However, Volt Switch is always nice. Hope this doesn't get completely neutered by later picks, but it seemed like a lot of the early picks do get countered. Zapdos it is. Happy birthday, Lavos Spawn.
It was between Thunder Wave Gyarados and Zapdos for me. Both solid choices.
I'm liking Zapdos too, since it's basically the only real "counter" that combines reliable recovery, momentum-gaining moves (Volt Switch), and good coverage. While I like Gyarados and I'm using it to great success on the ladder, it's not suited for a project like this, depending on its moveset it's easily abusable and forced to deal with SR in shakier ways than Zapdos (either Rest or picking a Rapid Spinner are choices that can work against us). Other options are good too (Keldeo, Gengar, especially Latias, and maybe Togekiss and Heracross, although I like those two less), but Zapdos seems the one that works as a full counter, and it's more resilient to counterpicks thanks to Volt Switch and great coverage.
Okay time is up and the votes are in.
and the winner is
Zapdos @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 226 SDef / 32 Spd
Calm Nature
- Volt Switch
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Roost
(Fixed the Sprite :P)
Now is the time to suggest and discuss Team 2's second pick. Some attributes to look for are:
-massive offensive presence
-outspeeds Lando-I
-can somewhat switch into Lando-I (cause HP Ice is still going to hurt Zapdos)
Also, as a general reminder, don't forget to put the name of your vote in the title of your PM. It's not a big deal right now as it's still a new system and only a few of you forget but I wanted to make it clear for you guys in case you misunderstood from before.
- CB Heracross: 1
- SubSplit Gengar: 1
- Reflect Type Latias: 1
- Keldeo: 1
- Togekiss: 2
- ChestoRest Gyarados: 2
- LO Gengar: 3
- Bulky Gyarados: 5
- Zapdos: 12
- Total Votes: 28
and the winner is
Zapdos @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 226 SDef / 32 Spd
Calm Nature
- Volt Switch
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Roost
(Fixed the Sprite :P)
Now is the time to suggest and discuss Team 2's second pick. Some attributes to look for are:
-massive offensive presence
-outspeeds Lando-I
-can somewhat switch into Lando-I (cause HP Ice is still going to hurt Zapdos)
Also, as a general reminder, don't forget to put the name of your vote in the title of your PM. It's not a big deal right now as it's still a new system and only a few of you forget but I wanted to make it clear for you guys in case you misunderstood from before.
Okay, time to submit something myself this time.
Terrakion @ Choice Band
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor
- Quick Attack
We all know what Terrakion does and how good is its coverage, so I won't state the obvious here. What I'd like to discuss is why I think a Terrakion pick is good at this point. Again, the fact that it puts an insane pressure on our opponent should be quite obvious, and even the common observation that a Choiced attacker may be an hindrance in this kind of project is kinda mitigated by the sheer power of Terrakion's attacks. The interesting part of this pick, however, is the bit of information we can extract from the first pick of Team 1: sure, Landorus-I is great, but it prevents them from picking the only true counter of Terrakion that is OU worthy: Landorus-T. Without it at their disposal, Team 1 will struggle to find something to take on Terrakion, having to rely on offensive checks or very defensive picks (Donphan or Hippowdon I guess) which are much shakier, and anyway easily abused. Even Terrakion's weakness to common priorities is somewhat mitigated when you realize that Zapdos already sorta handles Bullet Punches and Mach Punches. The last attack of the set can be changed in function of what you guys prefer to "check": Quick Attack 2HKOs Dugtrio, preventing it from switching in and killing Terrakion even without hazards on the field (and, well, a priority move is always handy when you don't have a great use for that moveslot), and Earthquake can be used to check obscure threats like Nidoqueen or Golurk I guess.
EDIT: oh, and:
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 267-315 (83.69 - 98.74%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Terrakion @ Choice Band
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor
- Quick Attack
We all know what Terrakion does and how good is its coverage, so I won't state the obvious here. What I'd like to discuss is why I think a Terrakion pick is good at this point. Again, the fact that it puts an insane pressure on our opponent should be quite obvious, and even the common observation that a Choiced attacker may be an hindrance in this kind of project is kinda mitigated by the sheer power of Terrakion's attacks. The interesting part of this pick, however, is the bit of information we can extract from the first pick of Team 1: sure, Landorus-I is great, but it prevents them from picking the only true counter of Terrakion that is OU worthy: Landorus-T. Without it at their disposal, Team 1 will struggle to find something to take on Terrakion, having to rely on offensive checks or very defensive picks (Donphan or Hippowdon I guess) which are much shakier, and anyway easily abused. Even Terrakion's weakness to common priorities is somewhat mitigated when you realize that Zapdos already sorta handles Bullet Punches and Mach Punches. The last attack of the set can be changed in function of what you guys prefer to "check": Quick Attack 2HKOs Dugtrio, preventing it from switching in and killing Terrakion even without hazards on the field (and, well, a priority move is always handy when you don't have a great use for that moveslot), and Earthquake can be used to check obscure threats like Nidoqueen or Golurk I guess.
EDIT: oh, and:
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 267-315 (83.69 - 98.74%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I'm going to propose this:
Latias (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 72 HP / 184 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Recover
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Surf
I think Latias should be a good choice at this point. She has a good staying power, she has a good offensive presence and she can also outspeed Landorus-I and force it out. She can also help Zapdos with a lot of threats such as Keldeo and Chrolophyll sweepers like Venusaur(and with Landorus-I too) which can make much pressure on the electric bird which we have chosen. 72 EVs on HP allow to take less damages from Politoed and Keldeo's Hydro Pump, from Venusaur's Sludge Bomb and from Landorus-I's Hidden Power Ice for example, which is really useful if Zapdos is just too much weakened while she can does a lot of damages too and while she can be at the same time a pain for the Team 1 to deal with.
Latias (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 72 HP / 184 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Recover
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Surf
I think Latias should be a good choice at this point. She has a good staying power, she has a good offensive presence and she can also outspeed Landorus-I and force it out. She can also help Zapdos with a lot of threats such as Keldeo and Chrolophyll sweepers like Venusaur(and with Landorus-I too) which can make much pressure on the electric bird which we have chosen. 72 EVs on HP allow to take less damages from Politoed and Keldeo's Hydro Pump, from Venusaur's Sludge Bomb and from Landorus-I's Hidden Power Ice for example, which is really useful if Zapdos is just too much weakened while she can does a lot of damages too and while she can be at the same time a pain for the Team 1 to deal with.
Choice Specs Keldeo
Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Trait: Justified
Evs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
-Hydro Pump
-Secret Sword
-Surf
-Hidden Power Ice
Can come in on a Hidden power Ice, threaten Landorus or break huge holes if the opponent decides to switch. The moveset is also chosen to bluff a scarf.
Remember that everyone knows exactly what item/ev/moves are assigned to each pokemon, so you can't bluff
LilOu
PO poopyhead
Keldeo @ Expert Belt
Trait: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Secret Sword
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power Bug
- Icy Wind
It was supposed to be Life Orb, but thinking a little, the damage it gets from recoil is not worth it. This set works really great with offensive things that we can abuse, like Breloom which can beat Jellicent if team 2 chooses it (avoiding the burn or using the sub-punch set). Now, if we use this, there are few things that can take hits for days, like I said before, Jellicent, who is easily killed by the likes of Tyranitar and can be used as set-up fodder for some Pokemons.
In conclusion, (that was short) Keldeo keeps a lot of offensive pressure while giving team 2 the opportunity to chose some powerhouses to break though the pony's counters / checks.
Infernape @ Life Orb
200 Atk / 56 SAtk / 252 spd
Naive (+Spd, -SDef) Iron Fist
- Swords Dance
- Fire Punch
- ThunderPunch
- Hidden Power Ice
Basically this Infernape hits two birds with one stone : it revenges Landorus that has not yet Rock Polished and, if still alive, can be a deadly late-game sweeper due to easilyforcing switches. This infernpe is based off of a pokemon on one of my teams, with adjustments to help the team more.
This is my first time posting here.
LilOu
PO poopyhead
I think that Nape would be a good choice later. It is easily checked / countered. Also, the set look kinda weird. With Mild nature, Landorus outspeeds it, also, we are not using RP lando...
Infernape @ Life Orb
200 Atk / 56 SAtk / 252 spd
Mild (+SAtk, -Def) Iron Fist
- Swords Dance
- Fire Punch
- ThunderPunch
- Hidden Power Ice
Basically this Infernape hits two birds with one stone : it revenges Landorus that has not yet Rock Polished and, if still alive, can be a deadly late-game sweeper due to easilyforcing switches. This infernpe is based off of a pokemon on one of my teams, with adjustments to help the team more.
This is my first time posting here.
Fail, I had just been looking at an Rmt that had Rp Lando.
Mamoswine @ Life Orb
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Crash
- Superpower
What tries to come into zapdos? Assholes. What else? Fucking things that can hit it with supereffective attacks (so like ice and such which is paired with electric, also as such). Thus comes mamoswine who not only resists bolt beam, but also hits like a truck and although it doesn't outspeed can easily pick off lando with an ice shard as well as deter the other team from choosing any of the very threatening dragon sweepers.
What counters mamo? Fucking skarmory and gyarados and some bulky waters. But who deals with each of these? Zapdos. And what move does he use to do so? Fucking volt switch. Meaning that the opponent is hardly even safe to predict because if zapdos switches in on a mamo counter, the momentum is instantly in our hands allowing us to switch to something that will presumably (given the project) counter whatever stands before us.
Mamoswine. fuck yeah
blitzlefan
shake it off!
UGH!!! Keldeo was taken away before I could resubmit it, and I was beaten to Mamoswine as well. However, you need to keep in mind that both Zapdos and Mamoswine are weak to Stealth Rock, so the benefits of Zapdos' Volt Switch are balanced with the 25% damage they'll both take on coming in. Team 1 can easily take advantage of this with a good hazard setter and possibly a spinblocker, so we'll need to make sure we can spin hazards away. Also, I feel as if we should get a hazard setter early, so we aren't forced to merge multiple roles into one as in the last CtP. So perhaps a lead Mamoswine with Sash + Stealth Rock?
Edit: Mamoswine is NOT weak to Stealth Rock. Sorry.
Edit: Mamoswine is NOT weak to Stealth Rock. Sorry.
Lavos
Banned deucer.
well thanks to everyone who voted for zapdos (except no thanks to MELEE MEWTWO for making it the crappy rby sprite!) and i was going to post but lilouon beat me to the punch...so yeah, supporting ebelt keldeo. great offensive synergy with zapdos, and zappy is really good at creating opportunities for it to come in and start doing work. specs keldeo is also good but i think i like the utility of ebelt more at this stage in the process.
Mamoswine is not weak to rocks...
And since we have zapdos and are using it as a wall (thus the weakness is very iffy), some kind of anti-hazard utility is bound to come...