Tier Shift Research Week - The Great Walls of Tier Shift

[TUO]

Approved by Arcticblast

Research Week - Tier Shift Edition!
Hosted by The Unlucky one and PureQuestion!

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Duration: April 19 - May 3
*: This is an arbitrary date. This Research Week will end when discussion ends.​

Note: When you give out your ladder rank, please specify what rank method it falls under (Glicko2, ACRE). When you show your Glicko2, please also show your deviation along with it!

Tier Shift Research Week is an investigation for Pokemon that have potential in the Tier Shift metagame, be it in stats, movepool or typing to possibly become an innovative choice in the metagame. These Pokemon haven't really seen the limelight and have been rather neglected for a bit of time. I (With help from you guys in the Tier Shift forums) have selected 1 OU, 1 UU, 1 RU, and 1 NU Pokemon that I feel could see rise of cool sets or the ability to fulfill a specified niche. Actually the title might be rather misleading; in fact, each installment (assuming there is enough attention for more to come) is probably going to last until the discussion ends. So keep up the discussion guys!


If you have anything to say for these Pokemon, it would be great to share your thoughts on it and post them! It doesn't matter if you used them or fought them in a match, we would definitely like to hear your thoughts. When you do that, please try to back up your claim with replays if you can or some damage calculations. However, I still encourage you to try out the Pokemon for yourself!

• Don't just shun a Pokemon right away, try and take a good look at the Pokemon, see how it may work and try and give it a spin on the ladder.
• It's alright to theorymon here, but make it clear that you are theorymoning. However, at the end of the Research Week, we need to know how efficient our research subjects are in the Tier Shift metagame, as well as what sets work best with them.
• Do not post in this thread complaining about the Pokemon we choose and/or suggesting ones we should do for future weeks. We want discussion to stay on topic about the Pokemon we are researching. Feel free to VM / PM me these suggestions, but don't expect the next research week to have all the Pokemon you suggested, or any of them.

So, the 4 Pokemon we will be looking at this research week are Skarmory, Empoleon, Mandibuzz, and Piloswine!

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Questions to think about as this Research Week progresses:

1. How useful are these Pokemon in Tier Shift?
2. What sets can they run effectively?
3. What problems does this Pokemon have?
4. What edge does this have over other Pokemon in the metagame?
5. What niche can this Pokemon fill in teams?
6. Are they worth the team slot on your team or is it outclassed?
7. If this was to rise in usage, what would you expect to see from the metagame?

Please make sure that there is a lot of discussion. This discussion can get really good! You can also talk about it on #othermetas on IRC as well. Hopefully by the end of this discussion, we can get a general consensus on how well these Pokemon perform and how they perform.

Alright, time for the fun part of this! This will last for the duration of the Research Week specified above (April 19 - May 3).

Taken from TNT's OU Edition

The Research Week Challenge:

• Users will use any number of the research week mons on their team
• Users will attempt to reach as high as possible on the ladder with the Pokemon. Surpassing a Glicko2 rating of 2000 with a deviation of 75 or lower on the ladder with your registered alt will grant you a spot on the Hall of Fame: Platinum Class. Breaking past a Glicko2 rating of 1950 with a deviation of 75 or lower on the ladder with your registered alt will earn you a spot on the Hall of Fame: Gold Class. Crossing a Glicko2 rating of 1900 with a deviation of 75 or lower will secure you a Silver Class spot while a Glicko2 rating of 1850 with a deviation of 75 or lower will earn you a Bronze Class spot. Post a screen-shot of your peak and an importable of your team in order to achieve this.
• Users will be expected to post their experiences with the Pokemon they use, the teams they used, the problems they encountered while trying to make the said Pokemon work.
• If a user does not participate in the discussion, he will be passed over.

In order to participate in the challenge, simply post what Pokemon you're trying and your fresh new alt (yes, this is mandatory). Post battle logs, experiences with your team on the ladder, and generally how a Pokemon has worked out for you: past or present.

It has been noticed that the last few Research Weeks have been basically reduced to ladder runs. This completely defeats the purpose of Research Week where the idea is NOT TO see if a person can get a high ladder rating with an underused Pokemon but to subjectively assess as a community, whether that particular Pokemon is viable in the tier and discover its potential in the tier. In order to remedy this, an archive is going to be created, highlighting great posts.

Participants (13)​

User and Alt List

Format will go like this: username - alt - ladder standing - Research Subject(s)

pkblizzard - Blitzspam - n/a - Mandibuzz

Mr Omgness - Trampoleon - n/a - Empoleon

jas61292 - Hot Pie - n/a - Mandibuzz, Piloswine

Blank_Zero - Blank_Tier_Shift_1 (2/3/4/etc) - n/a - All

Qwilphish - Sgt. Empoleo - ACRE : 1796 Glicko2: 1874±56 - Empoleon, Skarmory

TLC - SkarmBlissRW - n/a - Skarmory

sonicfan - sonicfan7895 - n/a - Mandibuzz

EspyOwner - Espeon - n/a - Piloswine

Unoriginal Name - PillowPeg&APenguin - n/a - Piloswine

Dogfish44 - ArthurConanDyle - n/a - Mandibuzz

Knights Of Cydonia - Kni - ACRE- 1831, Glicko 2- 1930 ± 70 - Mandibuzz

Yamus of Bethany - Indirion - n/a - Empoleon

Trinitrotoluene - some kind of blue - n/a[/B] - Empoleon

Hall of Fame (2)​

Research Week Hall of Fame

Platinum Class: 2000+ Glicko2
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(none yet)​

Gold Class: 1950-1999 Glicko2
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(none yet)​

Silver Class: 1900-1949 Glicko2
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Knights of Cydonia -

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"Overall, because of its mixed bulk and usability, Mandibuzz is definitely worth a trial on your team."​

Username: Qwilphish
Alt: Sgt. Empoleo​

Post​

Set:​

[BOX]
Mandibuzz @ Leftovers
Trait: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Spd / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
- Roost
- Toxic
- Taunt
- Whirlwind
[/BOX]​

Bronze Class: 1850- 1899 Glicko2
​

Qwilphish -

"Although it does not gain any boosts, Skarmory is still as amazing as ever, walling many physical attackers on both sand and sun teams."

"Overall, I feel Empoleon's special walling capabilities is what really make it shine. Being a Water type, it is an excellent check to Rain teams, something that Heatran cannot boast.."​

Username: Knight of Cydonia
Alt: kni​

Post​

Set:​

[BOX]
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 224 SDef / 32 Spd
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Roar
- Ice Beam
- Stealth Rock

Empoleon @ Petaya Berry
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
-Substitute
-Agility
-Surf
-Grass Knot

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 228 Def / 252 HP / 28 Spd
Impish Nature
- Whirlwind
- Spikes
- Roost
- Brave Bird
[/BOX]​

Compendium of Great Posts (3)​

Archives and Stuff

MANDIBUZZ RESEARCH
For the “Great Walls of Tier Shift” Research Thread on Smogon.com

Mandibuzz, one of the only Dark/Flying-types other than its pre-evolution, has been nominated to be researched on by fellow Smogon members. I also, have taken on this role, and will gladly fill you in on how it’s been doing on my team.

For starters, let’s go with the set I’m using: it’s a slightly modified version of the standard set listed on Smogon, in that I’m not using Whirlwind, and instead, going for all-out sweeping. This is the set I’m using:

Mandibuzz (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Atk / 176 SDef
Impish Nature
- Taunt
- Payback
- Roost
- Brave Bird

As you can see, I have eliminated Whirlwind, and replaced it with Payback, due to its slow speed, but bulky nature (424 HP and 270 Def), Payback should do well when facing off against strong opponents... in theory. Mandibuzz’s threats happen to be unmoved, even in TS. This set has had less success than the standard set on Smogon. It’s one true threat however, are Rock-types and Sandstorm; when Sandstorm comes out, you need to switch to a Pokemon that can cover Sandstorm well, such as a Water-type. Mandibuzz, while it has its strengths, shouldn’t be one of those walls, unless you find a truly good use for it in battle. Let’s compare it to the standard set on Smogon:

Mandibuzz @ Leftovers
Trait: Big Pecks
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Taunt
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Brave Bird / Foul Play / Toxic

“Despite being a Flying-type and consequently weak to Stealth Rock, Mandibuzz can still wall a select few threats. Specially defensive Mandibuzz is in fact a counter to some of the most common special attackers in the tier: Slowking, Sceptile, Lilligant, and Accelgor. Taunt is a great move that prevents Slowking and Accelgor from setting up Nasty Plot and Spikes, respectively. It is also an answer to opposing stall teams, as Mandibuzz's base 80 Speed lets her outrun most walls in RU and prevent them from healing or spreading status. While the opponent is prohibited from healing, Mandibuzz can heal herself with Roost, which is especially helpful to mitigate Stealth Rock damage. In addition, Roost removes her Flying typing, allowing the vulture to take Rock-, Ice-, and Electric-type attacks more easily. Be careful, though, as this makes her more susceptible to Ground-, Bug-, and Fighting-type attacks. All in all, Taunt, Roost, and her two immunities—namely to Ground- and Psychic-type attacks—make Mandibuzz hard to take down.”

(Description courtesy of Smogon.com)

“Despite the emphasis on her Special Defense, Mandibuzz is also able to take on physical attackers due to her high base Defense. This is especially useful as Whirlwind can force out set-up Feraligatr, Crawdaunt, Scyther, and Drapion, as well as special sweepers such as Omastar and Sigilyph, but note that Mandibuzz will take a lot of damage in the process. Brave Bird or Foul Play are the preferred moves in the last slot, as Mandibuzz will otherwise become useless if Taunted. Brave Bird hits surprisingly hard even off Mandibuzz's base 65 Attack, OHKOing Sceptile and Lilligant after Stealth Rock damage. Brave Bird also lets Mandibuzz damage Pokemon that can heal or are immune to Toxic, such as Roselia, Clefable, Poliwrath, and Qwilfish. As Taunt will prevent these Pokemon from healing, Brave Bird will eventually wear them down, allowing Mandibuzz to beat them one-on-one. Foul Play is useful for hitting physical attackers, such as Kabutops, Druddigon, and Entei, harder than Brave Bird. Alternatively, Toxic can be used to cripple walls such as opposing Mandibuzz, Slowking, and Cryogonal.”


1. How useful is this Pokemon in Tier Shift? (5/10)
Even with this Pokemon’s good bulk, its mediocre attack powers and movepool cripple it half to death in Tier Shift (even in its own tier, when Pokemon are killing this in one hit).

2. What sets can they run effectively? (7/10)
The only set that Mandibuzz can even come close to running effectively, is the standard set listed on Smogon (the second set above). That’s about all I can say.

3. What problems does this Pokemon have? (2/10)
Mandibuzz has so many problems in Tier Shift, it’s not even funny; as said above, it’s truly weakest against Rock-types and Sandstorm.

4. What edge does this have over other Pokemon in the metagame? (6/10)
At least some of the Pokemon that I’ve been able to knock out were Bug-types and Grass-types, and even some Fighting-types.

5. What niche can this Pokemon fill in teams? (6/10)
The only niche that this Pokemon can fill in the team is the Brave Birder/Roost or Toxic/Roost niche, where you set Toxic and Roost the crap out of Mandibuzz until Toxic kills it off.

6. Is this worth the team slot on your team or is it outclassed? (10/10 Outclassed)
Compared to the other Dark-types I’ve had on this team, this is the worst Dark-type I’ve had on my team.

7. If this was to rise in usage, what would you expect to see from the metagame? (0/10)
If this was to rise in usage, I could immediately see it going back down; in UU and above, every type that’s strong against Mandibuzz will decimate it until it’s nothing but charred bones and egg shells.

User: sonicfan

tiershift
ACRE: 1423
GXE: 66
Glicko2: 1684 ± 185 (provisional)
W: 3
L: 2
T: 0
(Results from after 5 Battles with Mandibuzz, 2nd loss was Durant Sweep)

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Empoleon if I were you. Let's compare the typings of Empoleon and Heatran:

         |Empoleon  |Heatran
Normal   |x.5       |x.5
Grass    |x1        |x.25
[B]Water    |x.5       |x2[/B]
Fire     |x1        |x0 (Flash Fire)
Flying   |x.5       |x.5
Electric |x2        |x1
Fighting |x2        |x2
[B]Rock     |x.5       |x1[/B]
Ground   |x2        |x4
Ice      |x.25      |x.25
Poison   |lol       |lol
Psychic  |x.5       |x.5
Bug      |x.5       |x.25
Dark     |x.5       |x.5
Dragon   |x.5       |x.5
Steel    |x.25      |x.25
Ghost    |x.5       |x.5

Empoleon's Rock resist means it's not as easy to wear down with hazards, since one turn of Leftovers recovery will heal off the SR damage. The Water resist is really what makes Empoleon stand out. Resisting Water is always a good thing, and it lets Empoleon force out several other Water-types (unless they're fishing for a Scald burn, but you can do that too!). While Empoleon also has a weakness to Electric, most users of Thunder in Tier Shift aren't exactly afraid of Heatran either, since many carry a Fighting or Water move. Empoleon's lesser weakness to Ground lets it pull off crazy things like these:
(yes, I am aware I'm using several different spreads, I'm not trying to champion a single build here)
252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tier Shift Empoleon: 294-348 (77.16 - 91.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tier Shift Empoleon: 254-300 (66.66 - 78.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tier Shift Empoleon: 315-374 (82.67 - 98.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now onto the other side of their typings. Water STAB is much better than Fire STAB for a Pokemon to have. Let's go more in-depth and assume that both Pokemon are using three non-damaging moves and Lava Plume / Scald. Both Lava Plume and Scald have a 30% burn chance. However, Fire Pokemon sent in to resist Lava Plume are completely immune to burns. Meanwhile, Water-types that resist Scald can still be burned.

In addition to Empoleon's typing benefits, it also has a wider support movepool. Heatran may have Torment and Will-O-Wisp, but Empoleon lays claim to Yawn, Knock Off, Icy Wind, and the less important Aqua Ring and Mist.

As far as offensive capabilities go, they really can't be compared, since Empoleon is often best with SubPetaya + Agility whereas Heatran is a better Choice user / bulky attacker.

Don't be so quick to abandon Empoleon for Heatran. The penguin lord pimp daddy has a lot going for it.

While I won't participate in this week (or other arbitrary length of time)'s Ladder Challenge due to university work, I will give a couple of thoughts on some of the given mons.


Piloswine serves a very similar role in TS as in NU; it makes a moderately powerful, very bulky tank with a very good offensive typing, priority and access to both phasing and SR, although not normally on the same moveset. Its most common set is

Piloswine @ Eviolite
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
-Earthquake
-Icicle Spear/Icicle Crash
-Ice Shard
-Stealth Rock/Roar

This set combines its decent attack stat (115 in Tier Shift) and its wonderful STABs to become a nice utility tank. Earthquake and the Ice move of choice is there for nearly unresisted STAB. Ice Shard helps make up for Pilo's poor speed stat and can help pick off weakened mons, especially most Chlorophyll sweepers (for example, 4/0 Sawsbuck and Victreebel both take ~50%). The choice of Stealth Rock or Roar depends on whether your team needs hazards or phasing more, with Roar providing Pilo with a temporary way around Shedinja.

The other set that Pilo can run effectively is a physically defensive set running EQ/SR/Ice Shard and your choice or Roar or Icicle Spear. This set is incredibly difficult to break in one shot, as shown by the following calculations:
252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Piloswine: 171-202 (39.4 - 46.54%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Piloswine: 256-303 (58.98 - 69.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Piloswine: 291-346 (67.05 - 79.72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Piloswine: 290-344 (66.82 - 79.26%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While the first two may not be the most common of events, they do give an indication of just how physically bulky this Piloswine is.

However, not all is sunshine and buttercups for Pilo. Its offensive typing may be very good, but as a defensive type it leaves a lot to be desired. As said by The Unlucky one, weaknesses to both Water and Grass are very problematic in the highly weather dominated metagame that is Tier Shift, not to mention a weakness to the ever present Fighting moves. It also lacks in resistances, resisting only Ice (thanks to Thick Fat) and Poison, and being immune to solely Electric. Its lack of any from of recovery outside of another mon passing Wishes to it also greatly reduces its life expectancy.

Overall, Piloswine is a fairly underrated mon, being able to reliably set up SR for most teams and having access to nice utility moves in Roar and Ice Shard, in addition to being able to take hits from some of the most powerful attackers in TS. Use it with caution, however; it is severely hampered by hazards and status, since it lacks any form of recovery.


Skarmory is very rarely seen in TS, being overlooked often in favour of the lower tier mons that have been boosted. However, it still fulfills its roles of hazard-setting and walling on the physical side very effectively. Since most spinners in TS either lose too much momentum or are flawed in some way, and with things like Golurk running around spinblocking everything, hazards are particularly effective in this offensive metagame. Skarmory is fairly adept at getting up multiple layers of Spikes (or SR if that is your hazard of choice) since it has access to reliable recovery, in addition to being able to phase out anything that takes the opportunity to set up on it; these give it a niche over other common Spikes setters such as Ferrothorn. It also has Taunt, allowing it to prevent the opponent laying hazards as well. Between these, it can effectively run both a Custap suicide lead set with Taunt/SR/Spikes/(your choice of various moves) or a standard physically defensive set. Its typing is still unique in TS, allowing its defensive set to wall many significant threats, such as completely walling standard Sawsbuck. However, it can be taken down moderately quickly with powerful special attacks, especially sun-boosted Fire moves.

Both of these mons are very usable in the current Tier Shift meta, provided sufficient team support is provided for Piloswine. Neither is to be underestimated, and currently it is my opinion that both are underrated, despite their flaws.

Hopefully this was something along the lines of what you were wanting for this thread :)

A proper sign-up sheet should look something like this:

[BOX]Username: The Unlucky one
Alt: SuperwiiTest
Ladder Standing: N/A
Research Subject(s): Mandibuzz,Piloswine[/BOX]

Remember to update your original post with ladder progress and comment about your experiences! With that done, we look forward to see what you have to say!

 

[Blizzard]

Username: pkblizzard
Alt: BlitzSpam
Ladder Standing: N/A
Research Subject(s): Mandibuzz

 

[Mr Omgness]

Username: Mr Omgness
Alt: Trampoleon
Ladder Standing: N/A
Research Subject: Empoleon


Some interesting mons here.

Lately Custap Skarmory has been quite popular in OU due to the Deoxys-D ban, and in tier shift hazards are as good as ever. Question is if there aren't better guys to be a custap lead (something like Crustle comes to mind). I think the defensive set will still be a good one here, access to roost and whirlwind help it over some other defensive powerhouses that now try to compete with their new tier shift boosts.


I have been using some Empoleon already and I think the SubPetaya set is superior in this tier, rather than it's defensive set. But still, setting up SR and being able to phaze is a good combination in this meta.

Have no insight on Mandibuzz so I'll be looking forward to what the cat brings home here.

Piloswine should be very interesting, as I calculated before it can survive a +2 Horn Leech from Sawsbuck which shows just how bulky it is. It does have quite some weaknesses but none of them are x4, meaning Piloswine will hardly be OHKOed by anything that isnt properly setup. Thick Fat and an Electric Immunity is where it's at, but no recovery options outside of Rest, vulnerability to status and entry hazards is a setback.

 

[jas61292]

Never really done one of these before, but seems fun, so why not?

Username: jas61292
Alt: Hot Pie
Ladder Standing: N/A
Research Subject: Mandibuzz, Piloswine


I've used both of these guys briefly before, and I like what I've seen, but I generally play a more offensive style. I'll be interested to see how well things will work out going a different style.

 

[BlankZero]

Omg yes! I'm so ready for this.

Username: Blank_Zero
Alt: Blank_Tier_Shift_1 (2/3/4/etc)
Ladder Standing: None yet
Research Subject: All

 

[Chaoswalker]

(The below words are pre testing observation.)
With regards to Empoleon: Before you even set out on the journey, be real about the stats.

89HP/91Atk/93Def/116SpA/106SpD/65Spe

Here's Empoleon's bulky specialy deffensive steel competetion.

91HP/90Atk/106Def/130SpA/106SpD/77Spe
It doesn't compare statwise, and while it doesn't sport a 4x weakness, it also doesn't come with the magic immunity that Heatran's ability provides. In other words, defensively it should be a less useful aqua-tran.

It does have different resists though, and perhaps the meta will prove to us who's typing is more useful.

Heatran:Fire, Grass
Empoleon:Water, Rock

 

[Qwilphish]

Username: Qwilphish
Alt: Sgt. Empoleo
Ladder Standing: ACRE : 1796 Glicko2: 1874±56

Hide

Research Subject: Empoleon, Skarmory

Skarmory, I've found to be an extremely useful as a physical wall and a hazard setter. Although it does not gain any boosts, Skarmory is still as amazing as ever, walling many physical attackers on both sand and sun teams. I used Skarmory on a Sand team where it acted as my phazer and hazard setter. It excelled at both jobs tremendously as I was often easily able to get up at least 2 layers of Spikes every match almost guaranteed.

Empoleon however, is not as amazing as Skarmory in my experience. This by no means makes it unviable in the Tier Shift metagame. I tried Empoleon out in both a Rain team using the SubAgilityPetaya set and on a Sand team as my primary special wall. Overall, I feel Empoleon's special walling capabilities is what really make it shine. Being a Water type, it is an excellent check to Rain teams, something that Heatran cannot boast. As a sweeper I was often let down by how easy it was to shut down. Although the setting up of the Agility and Sub are easy due to Empoleon's great defensive typing, its semi-low power before Petaya kicks in, and it poor coverage often leads for it to getting walled by many Special Walls.

Overall, both of them are certainly very viable Steel types in the Tier Shift metagame and should be considered when looking for walls of their specific expertise.

Sets

Empoleon @ Leftovers
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 224 SDef / 32 Spd
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Roar
- Ice Beam
- Stealth Rock

Empoleon @ Petaya Berry
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
-Substitute
-Agility
-Surf
-Grass Knot

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 228 Def / 252 HP / 28 Spd
Impish Nature
- Whirlwind
- Spikes
- Roost
- Brave Bird

 

[TLCJR4LIFE]

Username: TLC
Alt: SkarmBlissRW
Ladder: None
Research Subject: Skarmory...will try them all though.

 

[sonicfan7895]

Username: sonicfan
Alt: sonicfan7895
Ladder: N/A
Research Subjects: Mandibuzz, Empoleon

Mandibuzz is definitely going to be an interesting subject to work with, however, I also know it will be very fun too! Mandibuzz and its tier of NU definitely have a sharper edge when it comes to competing in the metagame. Empoleon will be interesting to try in rain; I'll see what I can do.

One thing I do want to ask; will this be in the Development server? If not, where is it held?

 

[PureQuestion]

Sonicfan, Mandibuzz is RU, and tier shift is available on the main Showdown! server, and has been since the start of April!

Anyway, glad to see we have so many entrants. I'm currently in the middle of exams so I'm not likely to be especially involved in this particular research week >_>

 

[Arcticblast]

(The below words are pre testing observation.)
With regards to Empoleon: Before you even set out on the journey, be real about the stats.
Empoleon
89HP/91Atk/93Def/116SpA/106SpD/65Spe

Here's Empoleon's bulky specialy deffensive steel competetion.
Heatran
91HP/90Atk/106Def/130SpA/106SpD/77Spe
It doesn't compare statwise, and while it doesn't sport a 4x weakness, it also doesn't come with the magic immunity that Heatran's ability provides. In other words, defensively it should be a less useful aqua-tran.

It does have different resists though, and perhaps the meta will prove to us who's typing is more useful.

Heatran:Fire, Grass
Empoleon:Water, Rock

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Empoleon if I were you. Let's compare the typings of Empoleon and Heatran:

         |Empoleon  |Heatran
Normal   |x.5       |x.5
Grass    |x1        |x.25
[B]Water    |x.5       |x2[/B]
Fire     |x1        |x0 (Flash Fire)
Flying   |x.5       |x.5
Electric |x2        |x1
Fighting |x2        |x2
[B]Rock     |x.5       |x1[/B]
Ground   |x2        |x4
Ice      |x.25      |x.25
Poison   |lol       |lol
Psychic  |x.5       |x.5
Bug      |x.5       |x.25
Dark     |x.5       |x.5
Dragon   |x.5       |x.5
Steel    |x.25      |x.25
Ghost    |x.5       |x.5

Empoleon's Rock resist means it's not as easy to wear down with hazards, since one turn of Leftovers recovery will heal off the SR damage. The Water resist is really what makes Empoleon stand out. Resisting Water is always a good thing, and it lets Empoleon force out several other Water-types (unless they're fishing for a Scald burn, but you can do that too!). While Empoleon also has a weakness to Electric, most users of Thunder in Tier Shift aren't exactly afraid of Heatran either, since many carry a Fighting or Water move. Empoleon's lesser weakness to Ground lets it pull off crazy things like these:
(yes, I am aware I'm using several different spreads, I'm not trying to champion a single build here)
252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tier Shift Empoleon: 294-348 (77.16 - 91.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tier Shift Empoleon: 254-300 (66.66 - 78.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tier Shift Empoleon: 315-374 (82.67 - 98.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now onto the other side of their typings. Water STAB is much better than Fire STAB for a Pokemon to have. Let's go more in-depth and assume that both Pokemon are using three non-damaging moves and Lava Plume / Scald. Both Lava Plume and Scald have a 30% burn chance. However, Fire Pokemon sent in to resist Lava Plume are completely immune to burns. Meanwhile, Water-types that resist Scald can still be burned.

In addition to Empoleon's typing benefits, it also has a wider support movepool. Heatran may have Torment and Will-O-Wisp, but Empoleon lays claim to Yawn, Knock Off, Icy Wind, and the less important Aqua Ring and Mist.

As far as offensive capabilities go, they really can't be compared, since Empoleon is often best with SubPetaya + Agility whereas Heatran is a better Choice user / bulky attacker.

Don't be so quick to abandon Empoleon for Heatran. The penguin lord pimp daddy has a lot going for it.

 

[Chaoswalker]

Don't be so quick to abandon Empoleon for Heatran. The penguin lord pimp daddy has a lot going for it.

I certainly hope so. It's in my top 3 favorites, and it being useful would be fantastic.

On SubPeteya: I'm not going to lie and say it is easy to get off. Choice scarfers and chlorophyll/Sand Rush require two agilities, which I've only gotten against players who didn't know what was going on. In addition, bulky waters and priority users can take out Empoleon in its weakened condition. In other words, conditions have to be very perfect.

 

[TUO]

I think i'll participate in this myself, I'll quickly update the OP with my research subject(s). Time to drop some theorymoning thoughts on the two subjects I am personally testing.

Piloswine is really damn bulky. I actually did some preliminary calcs with CAP's BSR calculator and this is his Base Stat Ratings for his bulk after working backwards to find out his base stats after Eviolite:

After a quick look, I have noticed that a Piloswine with an Eviolite and nearly no investment in Defense has the equivalent of a Pokemon with base 151 Defense without investment. This means that without investment, Piloswine's eviolite allows it to match the same defense to a pokemon with base 151 Defense. With defensive investment, a Piloswine with Eviolite's defense matches that of a Pokemon with max defense investment and a base stat of 166. So yeah, Piloswine is really damn bulky on the physical side. It's not even that vulnerable to special attackers either. A Piloswine with an eviolite and no investment in Defense has the equivalent of a pokemon with base SpD stat of 121. Since Piloswine probably won't be investing in SpD that's still pretty damn bulky. So I put in these base stats into CAP's BSR calculator and found his Physical and Special Tankiness with Eviolite and no investment

Physical tankiness:
286.7786427
Special Tankiness:
228.5770814

You guys at CAP, you should probably know that this is absolutely fantastic. For people not so familiar with these BSR's I will just make a comparison. Piloswine's physical bulk barely misses out on Steelix without the Tier Shift boosts, while his Special Bulk beats out Umbreon.

Another thing that is great about Piloswine is it's access to rather good moves in the tier shift metagame. It along with Golurk is probably the best bulky offensive Stealth Rock setters in the current metagame. It can revenge Flying, Dragon, and Grass-Type pokemon (Sawsbuck, Jumpluff) with an Ice Shard coming from it's good Attack. It can also hit Ninetales, Tyranitar, and Hippowdon for super effective damage with one of it's STABs.

Alright with all that you might wonder why isn't Piloswine on everyone's teams. There a few reasons for that. 1. It's defensive typing is mediocre. It is weak to Water and Grass, two of the main attacking types in the metagame with Shell Smashers and Chlorophyll sweepers running around. 2. No really good affiliation with weather. Weather is arguable even more of a dominant force in tier shift than it is in OU, and not really gaining much from weather is considered a downfall by this point. 3. Lack of recovery. EASILY the biggest downfall of Piloswine. It has absolutely no ways to recover outside of RestTalk, which isn't that great because it doesn't have a Phazing move to stop you from being setup fodder while asleep or it still doesn't have space in its moveset to use it. It doesn't even have access to Leftovers recovery at all thanks to it relying on Eviolite. I could see Wish support from Alomomola working, as the two seem to work rather well together as an impenetrable phyiscally defensive core even though they both stack weaknesses to Grass.

That still doesn't mean Piloswine is weak in the meta. It still has a lot of potential and can do a role very similar to that of Landorus-Therian. I'm really excited to try him out!

TheUnluckyOne: /learn Piloswine, Roar
Piloswine can learn Roar

Oh that's cool!

I'll post about Mandibuzz when I have tested it

I apologize for the visual presentation looking meh, I'm not really in the mood to make an elaborate post :)

 

[PureQuestion]

It can also hit all the weather starters but Politoed for super effective damage with one of it's STABs.

Abomasnow isn't hit SE either.

 

[Nozzle]

Personally I've ran Mandibuzz to great success on a Sandstall team. Hailstall wil probably achieve the same. To optimize its viability you need spin support, heal bell support and as many hazards as possible. This is not hard to achieve since these are almost a must for defensive/stall teams. And just to show I've had it take about 50% from specs toed in rain's hydro pump. It's typing also makes it an excellent check against chlorophyll sweepers. Most notably against Shiftry and Exeggutor.

I run this set:

Mandibuzz (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Overcoat
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Def
Calm Nature (+Spdef, -Atk)
IVs: null Atk
- Roost
- Toxic
- Whirlwind
- Foul Play

 

[TalkTakesTime]

While I won't participate in this week (or other arbitrary length of time)'s Ladder Challenge due to university work, I will give a couple of thoughts on some of the given mons.


Piloswine serves a very similar role in TS as in NU; it makes a moderately powerful, very bulky tank with a very good offensive typing, priority and access to both phasing and SR, although not normally on the same moveset. Its most common set is

Piloswine @ Eviolite
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
-Earthquake
-Icicle Spear/Icicle Crash
-Ice Shard
-Stealth Rock/Roar

This set combines its decent attack stat (115 in Tier Shift) and its wonderful STABs to become a nice utility tank. Earthquake and the Ice move of choice is there for nearly unresisted STAB. Ice Shard helps make up for Pilo's poor speed stat and can help pick off weakened mons, especially most Chlorophyll sweepers (for example, 4/0 Sawsbuck and Victreebel both take ~50%). The choice of Stealth Rock or Roar depends on whether your team needs hazards or phasing more, with Roar providing Pilo with a temporary way around Shedinja.

The other set that Pilo can run effectively is a physically defensive set running EQ/SR/Ice Shard and your choice or Roar or Icicle Spear. This set is incredibly difficult to break in one shot, as shown by the following calculations:
252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Piloswine: 171-202 (39.4 - 46.54%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Piloswine: 256-303 (58.98 - 69.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Piloswine: 291-346 (67.05 - 79.72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Piloswine: 290-344 (66.82 - 79.26%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While the first two may not be the most common of events, they do give an indication of just how physically bulky this Piloswine is.

However, not all is sunshine and buttercups for Pilo. Its offensive typing may be very good, but as a defensive type it leaves a lot to be desired. As said by The Unlucky one, weaknesses to both Water and Grass are very problematic in the highly weather dominated metagame that is Tier Shift, not to mention a weakness to the ever present Fighting moves. It also lacks in resistances, resisting only Ice (thanks to Thick Fat) and Poison, and being immune to solely Electric. Its lack of any from of recovery outside of another mon passing Wishes to it also greatly reduces its life expectancy.

Overall, Piloswine is a fairly underrated mon, being able to reliably set up SR for most teams and having access to nice utility moves in Roar and Ice Shard, in addition to being able to take hits from some of the most powerful attackers in TS. Use it with caution, however; it is severely hampered by hazards and status, since it lacks any form of recovery.


Skarmory is very rarely seen in TS, being overlooked often in favour of the lower tier mons that have been boosted. However, it still fulfills its roles of hazard-setting and walling on the physical side very effectively. Since most spinners in TS either lose too much momentum or are flawed in some way, and with things like Golurk running around spinblocking everything, hazards are particularly effective in this offensive metagame. Skarmory is fairly adept at getting up multiple layers of Spikes (or SR if that is your hazard of choice) since it has access to reliable recovery, in addition to being able to phase out anything that takes the opportunity to set up on it; these give it a niche over other common Spikes setters such as Ferrothorn. It also has Taunt, allowing it to prevent the opponent laying hazards as well. Between these, it can effectively run both a Custap suicide lead set with Taunt/SR/Spikes/(your choice of various moves) or a standard physically defensive set. Its typing is still unique in TS, allowing its defensive set to wall many significant threats, such as completely walling standard Sawsbuck. However, it can be taken down moderately quickly with powerful special attacks, especially sun-boosted Fire moves.

Both of these mons are very usable in the current Tier Shift meta, provided sufficient team support is provided for Piloswine. Neither is to be underestimated, and currently it is my opinion that both are underrated, despite their flaws.

Hopefully this was something along the lines of what you were wanting for this thread :)

 

[pubby]

I'm curious if Mandibuzz is worth using over Golbat. Both have similar high defenses and moves, but Golbat has superior attack, speed, and defensive typing. On the other hand, Mandibuzz should fare much better in sand and hail due to overcoat and leftovers.

So, for those of you who plan on testing Mandibuzz: keep Golbat in mind.

 

[sonicfan7895]

MANDIBUZZ RESEARCH
For the “Great Walls of Tier Shift” Research Thread on Smogon.com

Mandibuzz, one of the only Dark/Flying-types other than its pre-evolution, has been nominated to be researched on by fellow Smogon members. I also, have taken on this role, and will gladly fill you in on how it’s been doing on my team.

For starters, let’s go with the set I’m using: it’s a slightly modified version of the standard set listed on Smogon, in that I’m not using Whirlwind, and instead, going for all-out sweeping. This is the set I’m using:

Mandibuzz (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Atk / 176 SDef
Impish Nature
- Taunt
- Payback
- Roost
- Brave Bird

As you can see, I have eliminated Whirlwind, and replaced it with Payback, due to its slow speed, but bulky nature (424 HP and 270 Def), Payback should do well when facing off against strong opponents... in theory. Mandibuzz’s threats happen to be unmoved, even in TS. This set has had less success than the standard set on Smogon. It’s one true threat however, are Rock-types and Sandstorm; when Sandstorm comes out, you need to switch to a Pokemon that can cover Sandstorm well, such as a Water-type. Mandibuzz, while it has its strengths, shouldn’t be one of those walls, unless you find a truly good use for it in battle. Let’s compare it to the standard set on Smogon:

Mandibuzz @ Leftovers
Trait: Big Pecks
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Taunt
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Brave Bird / Foul Play / Toxic

“Despite being a Flying-type and consequently weak to Stealth Rock, Mandibuzz can still wall a select few threats. Specially defensive Mandibuzz is in fact a counter to some of the most common special attackers in the tier: Slowking, Sceptile, Lilligant, and Accelgor. Taunt is a great move that prevents Slowking and Accelgor from setting up Nasty Plot and Spikes, respectively. It is also an answer to opposing stall teams, as Mandibuzz's base 80 Speed lets her outrun most walls in RU and prevent them from healing or spreading status. While the opponent is prohibited from healing, Mandibuzz can heal herself with Roost, which is especially helpful to mitigate Stealth Rock damage. In addition, Roost removes her Flying typing, allowing the vulture to take Rock-, Ice-, and Electric-type attacks more easily. Be careful, though, as this makes her more susceptible to Ground-, Bug-, and Fighting-type attacks. All in all, Taunt, Roost, and her two immunities—namely to Ground- and Psychic-type attacks—make Mandibuzz hard to take down.”

(Description courtesy of Smogon.com)

“Despite the emphasis on her Special Defense, Mandibuzz is also able to take on physical attackers due to her high base Defense. This is especially useful as Whirlwind can force out set-up Feraligatr, Crawdaunt, Scyther, and Drapion, as well as special sweepers such as Omastar and Sigilyph, but note that Mandibuzz will take a lot of damage in the process. Brave Bird or Foul Play are the preferred moves in the last slot, as Mandibuzz will otherwise become useless if Taunted. Brave Bird hits surprisingly hard even off Mandibuzz's base 65 Attack, OHKOing Sceptile and Lilligant after Stealth Rock damage. Brave Bird also lets Mandibuzz damage Pokemon that can heal or are immune to Toxic, such as Roselia, Clefable, Poliwrath, and Qwilfish. As Taunt will prevent these Pokemon from healing, Brave Bird will eventually wear them down, allowing Mandibuzz to beat them one-on-one. Foul Play is useful for hitting physical attackers, such as Kabutops, Druddigon, and Entei, harder than Brave Bird. Alternatively, Toxic can be used to cripple walls such as opposing Mandibuzz, Slowking, and Cryogonal.”


1. How useful is this Pokemon in Tier Shift? (5/10)
Even with this Pokemon’s good bulk, its mediocre attack powers and movepool cripple it half to death in Tier Shift (even in its own tier, when Pokemon are killing this in one hit).

2. What sets can they run effectively? (7/10)
The only set that Mandibuzz can even come close to running effectively, is the standard set listed on Smogon (the second set above). That’s about all I can say.

3. What problems does this Pokemon have? (2/10)
Mandibuzz has so many problems in Tier Shift, it’s not even funny; as said above, it’s truly weakest against Rock-types and Sandstorm.

4. What edge does this have over other Pokemon in the metagame? (6/10)
At least some of the Pokemon that I’ve been able to knock out were Bug-types and Grass-types, and even some Fighting-types.

5. What niche can this Pokemon fill in teams? (6/10)
The only niche that this Pokemon can fill in the team is the Brave Birder/Roost or Toxic/Roost niche, where you set Toxic and Roost the crap out of Mandibuzz until Toxic kills it off.

6. Is this worth the team slot on your team or is it outclassed? (10/10 Outclassed)
Compared to the other Dark-types I’ve had on this team, this is the worst Dark-type I’ve had on my team.

7. If this was to rise in usage, what would you expect to see from the metagame? (0/10)
If this was to rise in usage, I could immediately see it going back down; in UU and above, every type that’s strong against Mandibuzz will decimate it until it’s nothing but charred bones and egg shells.

User: sonicfan

tiershift
ACRE: 1423
GXE: 66
Glicko2: 1684 ± 185 (provisional)
W: 3
L: 2
T: 0
(Results from after 5 Battles with Mandibuzz, 2nd loss was Durant Sweep)

 

[EspyOwner]

Username: EspyOwner
Alt: Espeon
Ladder Standing: N/A
Research Subject(s): Piloswine

 

[Nozzle]

Mandibuzz isn't a pokemon of what you shou.ld think: I NEED A WALL SO LETS USE MANDIBUZZ. It is best used as a mixed wall on a (sand/hail)defensive/stall team. It's biggest niche is being able to handle sun sweepers very well. Not sure about Sawsbuck though. It also has great synergy with Cress

 

[Mr Omgness]

Had quite some games already, so thought I'd drop some opinions:

Skarmory: Still gets used a lot as a Custap Lead. Gets 2 layers of spikes up for sure but it seems such a waste to let a good defensive mon as Skarmory die for that. My team doesnt run a Rapid Spinner but if I see a Skarmory in the Team Preview I always lead with something that can 2HKO it. I havent seen it at all in it's old school defensive set so far, which puzzles me.

Piloswine: Maybe my team is just well-prepared for it but this guy gives me no trouble at all except setting up his occassional Stealth Rock (which my team isnt very weak too anyway, hence the absence of a spinner). Sure he can survive pretty much any hit but his lack of recovery really hurts him.

Mandibuzz: The poke I've seen the least so far and it's pretty annoying to my team yes but this guy cant do that much in return except try to stall the hell out of you. My team doesnt run Toxic tho, that should deal with this bird. It's a good Ferrothorn counter tho, who's getting his place in this tier.

Empoleon: Part of my team and I like it. It's not gonna be a top10 mon in this tier I'll admit that but it has it's niche in this tier (heck it already did before the tier boost). The SubPetaya set doesnt really need Rain Support but it does help, I mainly run it to make sure Sun isnt up. It's not an easy pokemon to play tho, I struggled a bit at the start (and still a little) as you have to know when to put it in the game and when you can Sub up or you just fire off a Surf for the switch-in and then return it. It deals an insane amount of damage with Surf once it's in Torrent range, even without Rain it OHKOes a lot of stuff. And early game it's a good hit-and-run attacker.

 

[Unoriginal Name]

Username: Unoriginal Name
Alt: PillowPig&APenguin
Ladder Standing: N/A
Research Subject(s): Piloswine, Empoleon

 

[TUO]

Just wanna bump this thread up and ask a few more questions:
1.) What teams do you see this Pokemon succeed in?
2.) What teams did this Pokemon help against?
3.) What kind of teams was this Pokemon inefficient against?

 

[youngjake93]

Empoleon seemed not viable at all when I saw it. Ferrothorn and Heatran have better stats, typing, movepool, typing, etc.
I haven't seen Pilowswine.
Mandibuzz is a good wall, but it doesn't have much to make it stand out outside of overcoat. It synergizes decently with Hippo for a sandstall core.
Skarmory isn't as important as physical dragons aren't defining the metagame. It does have the great niche of a bulky steel with instant recovery and the custap set has the distinction over forretress and crustle due to taunt.

 

[Chaoswalker]

Empoleon really let me down when I went up against Sun. There we scarce many opportunities for half my defensive core to ever enter, and when it did manage to slip into the fray, it was already threatened by the coverage of whatever it came in on. This seems largely due to the fact that once Empoleon enters, it's not very threatening offensively, if it doesn't resist the entire moveset its not taking anything boosted very well, and it doesn't have status outside of toxic to abuse. It doesn't help that Empoleon's best synergy is with Gliscor, Claydol and Latias. (Actually, Latias might help a bit against sun with fire/grass resist.)