A Debate Game Interest / (Sign-Up?) Thread

[FrostFire]

OK it may be true that some team styles have inherently unbalanced matchups vs each other. However, this doesnt explain my main question: if what we really want is a meta in which matchup isnt an issue, then why dont we do what I said and let everyone choose from a set of evenly matched (or mirror matched) teams? I dont think that we really want that, but I see it as a logical extension. It seems to me an inherent feature of pokemon that team matchups will exist, not as the fault of rain in particular; this is partially why so much thought goes into team selection and creation for tournament matches, trying to find something that will work well vs what the opp could bring. What is the evidence that rain in particular causes this kind of one-sided matchup?

I think there's some misunderstanding here about what is meant when people say that the current meta is so heavily reliant on 'matchup'. See, there's a difference between:

1. Team A has an advantage over Team B. Team B has an advantage over Team C. Etc.

Versus:

2. Team A has an insurmountable advantage over Team B. Team B has an insurmountable advantage over Team C. Etc.

I agree with the above post IF what you mean is that some team archetypes will always have a certain advantage over others, and that this isn't necessarily bad. However, I do not accept a metagame where the second scenario I outlined is commonplace. This is because entire matches will then be decided simply on the type of team you're running, and that you can play competently. What the concern is, I think, is that the metagame is becoming a glorified 'Rock, paper, scissors' - just as rock beats scissors, so too does sand stall beat rain stall. There's no skill involved in that.

I think the ideal way to resolve the question of team matchup would be to take several common team archetypes, and then theorise how each style can combat all other common OU team archetypes. If it's a case of all the teams smashing some team types, while losing horribly to others, then that might be indicative of the meta being overly reliant on team matchup. On the other hand, if all the teams have notable weaknesses (which may be overcome by good play) and key strengths (which may be reasonably overcome by the opponent) in each matchup, then it might not be a problem.

I'm not sure how this might be done though. I'm also not sure if what I said made sense but eh.

 

[yee]

OK it may be true that some team styles have inherently unbalanced matchups vs each other. However, this doesnt explain my main question: if what we really want is a meta in which matchup isnt an issue, then why dont we do what I said and let everyone choose from a set of evenly matched (or mirror matched) teams? I dont think that we really want that, but I see it as a logical extension. It seems to me an inherent feature of pokemon that team matchups will exist, not as the fault of rain in particular; this is partially why so much thought goes into team selection and creation for tournament matches, trying to find something that will work well vs what the opp could bring. What is the evidence that rain in particular causes this kind of one-sided matchup?

To be fair it was a long time ago, but during one of the first rounds Drizzle was out without Swift Swim, these same arguments still existed. They acknowledged that team matchup always exists, but not to the extent rain adds on. No one reasonable will argue with you that team matchup goes completely away and I don't understand where you get the idea that someone is doing so.

I can hopefully help you understand the side of rain causing matchup with my post in the other debate thread.

 

[TheValkyries]

I like how "debate" is done by using a lot of general declarative statements without citing any relevant specific examples.

I want to thank Pocket and Myzozoa for having FANTASTIC posts that actually accomplish something more than just offering up a bunch of buzzwords and opinions with no basis.

 

[Kidogo]

To be fair it was a long time ago, but during one of the first rounds Drizzle was out without Swift Swim, these same arguments still existed. They acknowledged that team matchup always exists, but not to the extent rain adds on. No one reasonable will argue with you that team matchup goes completely away and I don't understand where you get the idea that someone is doing so.

I can hopefully help you understand the side of rain causing matchup with my post in the other debate thread.

OK, just to confirm that I'm understanding the arguments correctly, the stance is that rain sweepers basically force the game into a situation of whether or not you have their appropriate checks, and if you do, there is little to nothing they can do to get past them, and if you don't there is ittle to nothing you can do to stop them. Is this a correct summary?

 

[yee]

That's a satisfying summary to me, and I'm glad if nothing else that someone got that message across.

 

[Kidogo]

OK well my follow-up then is that that sounds like a description of the typically BW2-power creeped offensive threats--what exactly about this kind of "if you don't have the check you will lose" mentality is specific to rain sweepers? I'd argue that if you don't have gliscor, slowbro, hippo, golurk/nido (or w/e) or a scarfer with base speed > 108, then you will consistently lose to subsalac terrakion. Meanwhile, if the opponent does have slowbro, for example, your terrakion is not doing anything in the match barring hax. In fact, I'd argue that band terra is even more of a counter/no counter situation than specs keldeo--sure, hpump in rain has more raw power than CC, but so much more reists keldeo's dual stabs, and that stuff is hecka bulky a well. Meanwhile, bandterra basically is guaranteed a KO every time it comes in with proper prediction re: CC/SE, since you 2HKO basically everything with those two moves. So how is this so different from what you're proposing is so inherently bad for the meta about rain?

 

[jpw234]

In my opinion - and I would like to emphasize that this appears to be only my opinion, so I don't speak for yee or anybody else. But in my opinion, it is difficult to show that there is a large distinction as far as pure power goes between Specs Keldeo and Band Terrakion, as you've said, Kidogo, insofar as that it is not the case that Terrakion can be easily handled by certain pokemon while Keldeo cannot and somehow Keldeo is at this super rain-boosted level of broken. I'd agree that there are a bunch of threats in the metagame that are powerful, although I think that rain provides generally the most powerful of these threats. The difference to me, as I outlined in my first post, is in the way that you go about answering rain threats and what that does to stagnate the metagame and discourage creativity. By nature of being a "rain abuser" (it's right in the name), any rain threat you come across must be reliant on rain. Therefore, the path of least resistance is to simply take away the rain. This centralizes the game around removing the opponent's weather and imposing your own, which hurts the meta.
For an example. If I want to take on CBTerrakion, I can do as you've said - use Gliscor, Slowbro, Hippowdon, a scarfer, something like that. But those pokemon (aside from Hippowdon obviously) can be used in a variety of ways and don't necessarily limit you as a teambuilder to a particular team archetype. When I think about handling Keldeo and its rain friends, on the other hand, I think, "Hmm. Well, there's Keldeo, Thundurus-T, DDGyara, FerroCruel, CMRachi, etc. Maybe if I was really good I could build a defensive team that handles all of these threats individually (although probably not - as everybody seems to agree, full stall is dead by virtue of having so many different threats to handle). Alternatively, I could use Ninetales to shut the rain off and Venusaur to outspeed and KO everything I just listed before they even become threats." What am I going to choose? I'm going to run Ninetales, or TTar, or HippoStall, or another rain abusing team, or if I'm me (and only me) maybe Abomasnow. But as soon as I do that I've locked myself in to a limited set of teammates, a limited set of strategies, and now we as a userbase have created a highly limited metagame. And I don't like it.

 

[yee]

Hide

OK well my follow-up then is that that sounds like a description of the typically BW2-power creeped offensive threats--what exactly about this kind of "if you don't have the check you will lose" mentality is specific to rain sweepers? I'd argue that if you don't have gliscor, slowbro, hippo, golurk/nido (or w/e) or a scarfer with base speed > 108, then you will consistently lose to subsalac terrakion. Meanwhile, if the opponent does have slowbro, for example, your terrakion is not doing anything in the match barring hax. In fact, I'd argue that band terra is even more of a counter/no counter situation than specs keldeo--sure, hpump in rain has more raw power than CC, but so much more reists keldeo's dual stabs, and that stuff is hecka bulky a well. Meanwhile, bandterra basically is guaranteed a KO every time it comes in with proper prediction re: CC/SE, since you 2HKO basically everything with those two moves. So how is this so different from what you're proposing is so inherently bad for the meta about rain?

Well my view of SubSalac Terrakion is that it's a sweeper, not a wallbreaker. If it were a wallbreaker it would be running CB or Rock Gem, which could actually let it reliably beat or wear down Gliscor and Slowbro. SubSalac's role is to come in after another wallbreaker has done its job (breaking walls) so it can boost its speed and clean up a team. CB / Rock Gem's job is to bash its head into a certain wall so it can't beat your cleaner that is countered by said wall. If SubSalac Terrakion isn't doing anything just because there is a Lando-T / Slowbro / Gliscor, that's improper use of it IMO. In fact it sounds like the team building process where a SubSalac Terrak couldn't beat a wall is one where 5-6 random cleaners were thrown on, just because that's the standard of BW.

That basically sums up why I feel that a standard one-pokemon threat like Terrakion shouldn't be called a team matchup boosting mon, it's still just like it was in Gen 4 where the point of playing offense was to synergize your strong mons so that they could win if they faced a wall or another offensive team, it's not a bad thing if a wallbreaker can break a wall given a free turn.

On a relevant note, if a lone mon like Terrakion were strong enough to wallbreak and clean at the same time, it would lead a bunch of older users to consider banning it. That's basically why Landorus is where it is, it has a unique ability where it doesn't have to choose much between wallbreaking and sweeping, it can do whatever it wants with a Rock Polish set.

My thinking for rain being bad isn't necessarily Keldeo, but I will argue with you that the bulky resists checking it are that good of a defense. Things like Tenta / Amoonguss / Gyara / Latias generally aren't that useful against it under rain, Tenta / Amoon can be flat 2HKOed by Hydro after rocks, min Gyara can just be OHKOed after rocks, and for Latias you're getting beat without a bulky set, and even then being a sitting duck that might just get trapped. On top of that, a lot of counters (I'll throw in Jelli here too) risk being set up bait for various CM sets. In the end you will be running two defensive water resists and sand to water it down if you actually want to beat Keldeo and / or Rain consistently without running offense.

At that point you realize everything non-weather balance or lower is already chained to those 3 select small groups of mons, and Rain offense teams will also be looking the same for a few reasons, which I'll get into in my bigger post. Hopefully this is and JPW's post are clearing up why I have my view.

 

[Pocket]

jpw234, you should go read Ojama's Clear Sky thread and maybe you'll realize how there are many more options in dealing with Rain than you may have known. No, using opposing weather to defeat Rain is NOT the path of least resistance, especially if this team is also reliant on its weather, whether that be sun, sand, or hail. In fact, a weatherless team can take full advantage of opponent's Rain by packing its own Keldeo, Rotom-W, Jirachi, Ferrothorn, etc. What even more, weatherless teams have the option to deploy Swift Swimmers that turns the Rain user's weather against him. I've had battles where the opponent was reluctant to bring in his Politoed, because that would mean Kingdra would sweep his team after I trap-kill Ferrothorn. That's a path of least resistance for ya - and a creative / non-standard one at that xP

If you want to defeat a Rain team, you must defeat the Politoed, Keldeo, Jirachi, FerroCruel, or whatever the opponent uses on his team. The objective is still the same - kill the opposing 6 mons before they kill yours. If your team is weather-reliant, then winning the weather war will be the closest thing in ensuring victory, but for other teams that does not rely on weather can simply start taking out mons.

 

[ginganinja]

No, using opposing weather to defeat Rain is NOT the path of least resistance, especially if this team is also reliant on its weather, whether that be sun, sand, or hail.

Actually it is. All I need to do is dedicate 1 slot on my team to a weather user (lets say Tyranitar), and then chuck on say 2 water resists (which isn't hard, dragons resist water, and adding a dragon is hardly a strain on my teambuilding), and I am done. I don't need to potentially worry about a Sub CM Jirachi spamming Thunder, don't need to worry about the Venusaur sweeping my team, don't need to deal with Hurricane ripping holes into my team, or with Tentacruel /Toxicroak healing an absurd about of health. Nor do I need to worry about surviving the boosted hits from pokemon such as Darmanitan, Victini, Keldeo, Gyarados and Azumarril under there respective weathers.

Its the simplest and easiest solution, you include a weather of your own, simple for having the OPTION of removing pretty much any weathers advantages (bar SS but that has few available) PLUS a pokemon like Tyranitar has its own advantages as well.

Just to make things clear however, clear skies DOES have the tools to beat weather. I am not disputing this. The point is that its very easy to chuck Tar on your team and call it a day, which makes it the easiest path. Using Swift Swimmers I guess is an ok solution for weather, but it proves the anti rain arguement: if you have to use shit mons like Kabutops or something in order to handle Rain, you are a) doing it wrong and b) really proving how centralising it is. Also c) means that you struggle more against opposing weathers and d) means your using a team slot on an average mon. Its not the path of least resistance: you are over centralising your team to deal with rain, as well as building your entire team around 1 mon, that you are not even supporting (ie your relying on your opponent bringing along that weather).

 

[Pocket]

Yes, you can add Tyranitar / Hippowdon / Abomasnow / Ninetales (?) to screw opposing weather teams. You can add Sunny Day on Heatran for a similar effect. My big take away point is that a user isn't short in options for dealing with Rain. Being reliant on a particular weather can end up fucking over the Rain user himself, since the opponent can not only change the weather, but oppress the entire team by simply tacking a Kingdra (who can also do well versus non-Rain teams by changing weather and being a late-game win condition) or a Keldeo of his own. Kingdra was simply an example of how people can still be creative even with Rain around, since jpw is blaming rain for "restricting creativity." If you want more standard answers to Rain, I've already provided some in the same post.

I also cant take a post seriously that lists FerroCruel as one of the reasons for banning Rain. It gives me the same impression as the rookie players who complained about SkarmBliss combo back in the day. If you're going to argue about how Rain is undesirable for the metagame, list the BROKEN elements, not all of its good elements (yes, players run Rain, because it's good!)

 

[HabibsHotDogs]

@Pocket

Good luck coming up with a weatherless team that can deal with all weathers effectively without putting a balloon tran + 2 rain resists/checks/counters on it. Yes that does restrict your teambuilding.

I have tried to challenge myself and come up with teams that counter all weathers whilst being weatherless myself and tried to do it without Heatran OR scarfers, it really isn't easy.

Hide

Tornadus-I comes to mind as a general weather counter with either a rainy day or tailwind set and is probably the best "unconventional" weather counter I have found, no sun team enjoys packing Ferrothorn or Skarmory so when you combine tailwind with something like a banded Kyube, you can make short work of a sun team (<10 turns almost guaranteed), even Heatran is 2hkoed after SR. Rain dance is fantastic after Ninetails faints and also allows Tornadus to check Venusaur, but this is now off topic..

..A team that is weather less and wants to do well really can't unless its packing very very specific pokemon, what I mean by this is if you want to be able to handle rain without threatening to change their weather you'll probably need some very good switch ins for Ferrothorn, Tentacruel, Politoed, Jirachi, Tornadus, Starmie, Jolteon and Keldeo (and others that don't come to mind atm).. this often means you end up packing say 2-3 of these pokemon and said pokemon are not even nearly as effective against sun or even sand or even a weatherless HO team..

So what ends up happening is your team that can so easily deal with rain because between Latias, Jirachi and Breloom you have a decent switch in for 80% of rain threats and a dugtrio to trap starmie (and ninetales/tar etc) then fails to account for a stacked sun offence team, getting demolished by a Darmanitan/Venusaur/Garchomp trifecta that absolutely mauls through your team..**

Basically my point is the fact that teams have to prepare such specific pokemon JUST for rain and more than 2 of them in a lot of cases (depending on what constitutes your teams strategy/build) it takes away a lot of the diversity of the metagame. I could argue that dealing with sun is no where near as "difficult", for example a heatran, scarfed infernape, volcarona or even Chandelure, Houndoom and Victini will be fantastic in a rainless meta for checking sun! Notice how I only listed fire types as they are grossly under-represented in the current meta and the lack of rain could lead to some interesting changes in the metagame... I'm sure we'd all love a reduction in the dominance of Jirachi and even Ferrothorn atm too if fire attacks could be thrown around more loosely.

But the above is all baseless conjecture and speculation until we actually have a rain-less meta in front of us. Rain is a problem, the fact that we have been packing multiple rain checks/counters from the onset of BW has made us less sensitive to the fact that we are packing multiple rain checks/counters and I don't mean just 1 or 2. How good the metagame may be might be subjective, but at the end of the day this has gone far far beyond centralisation this is the metagame, ie ONE pokemon has created the metagame as we know it, teams are being built, bans are being handed with a lot of the cause/focus around this one pokemon, Excadrill doesn't even come close.






** I gave examples of pokemon, this does not necessarily mean we should argue about these specific pokemon

 

[vyomov]

My opinions on Rain

Firstly, I really like the concept of the debate(when does it start(I presume this is pre-debate talk)).
Rain is certainly polarizing the metagame right now because of the numerous strategies open to a rain team. However, I would like to see further discussion before hastily banning a certain pokemon.
Considering rain's strengths, these are the strengths.
Firstly, Politoed is a slow pokemon which, while usually not a strength is optimal when applied to this context because the slower weather is induced.
Secondly, the power of water types moves is boosted while fire type moves are not as powerful. This is major simply because pokemon like Scizor get a lifeline due to the weakening of fire.
Thirdly, 100% accurate Thunder is a huge strength for pokemon found on rain teams.
Now, taking these into consideration, there are actually quite a few pokemon who can take care of rain teams.
Kingdra is usually viewed as a rain pokemon. However, what most omit to mention is that it is excellent against Rain as well. How so? Well, swift swim and drought are banned on the SAME team. That means that against rain, your Kingdra with Swift Swim is perfectly allowed to take advantage, a fact often overlooked.
Secondly, it's typing gives it 4x resists to both water as well as fire, meaning it functions really well on weatherless teams against both sun and rain.
With only one weakness and good STABs(unresisted save Ferrothorn), it has the ability to do well in the metagame. Dragon Dance allows it to set up on Politoed before sweeping.
Disadvantage? Status. Any rain counter often is hit by Toxic and thus cannot stay in for too long without a dedicated cleric.

Another disadvantage of rain is the 100% accurate Thunder. This in my opinion is worth considering as rain teams are forced to switch to a ground type or resist in order to prevent an OHKO.

The real issue with rain is not actually rain itself though. The issue, if you ask me is the abundance of Stealth Rock.
Everybody needs a challenger. And this is what is the issue. Sun teams are hit by the existence of Stealth Rock. While Politoed can switch in with impunity(thanks to Tenta which removes toxic spikes and good water-type rapid spinners), Ninetales cannot switch in if it's health is lower than 25 because it is OHKOed before it can retaliate. If that's not enough, even if Forretress shifts in, Jellicent can simply block the rapid spin.
Sand teams are hit by the sheer bad typing of Tyranitar who is 4x weak to fighting, making it food for any fighting pokemon or a pokemon carrying focus blast.
Hail was badly hit (as was Sand by Sand Veil) by the loss of Snow Cloak and, like Sun, by Stealth Rock + spinblocker. Hail is also at a disadvantage because Ice is a fairly bad type defensively, making it unpopular to use because of the abundance of counters.
Weatherless still forms a huge portion, but it too is hit by the sheer fact that without another weather, water-type moves hit doubly hard.

How can we solve the problem? There are some ways.
Firstly, we could ban Politoed. However, despite the loss of Drizzle, Rain Dance will still be legal and this in no way mitigates Stealth Rock or the bad typing of Sand/Hail.
Secondly, we could ban Jellicent. Without a spinblocker(who synergizes with the team), teams will finally be able to spin away Stealth Rock and this may improve the balance of the metagame.
Thirdly, we could ban Stealth Rock. Not usually discussed, without Stealth Rock the invincibility of Rain teams is suddenly lost. Ninetales can switch in with impunity, changing the weather and seizing control.
Abomasnow too can then switch in without a problem, levelling the metagame.
Fourthly, we could unban Excadrill. Excadrill was a rapid spinner who had enormous attacking capability as well as a good typing in Steel granting it resistances as well as immunity to Toxic(the status Politoed almost always carries). Excadrill is also immune to Thunder, again crippling rain and allowing Sand teams to even the metagame. With a powerful STAB move, Excadrill could very well even out things.
Now I know this post will be met by reactions with people reminding me of the days Excadrill was broken, but times have changed. New pokemon like Keldeo have emerged as counters to Excadrill and thus, I believe, suspect testing Excadrill could do no harm.
Please comment on my suggestions and feel free to add your own.

 

[alexwolf]

What i get from the pro-banners is that 2-3 Pokemon that use rain boosted attacks are difficult to hold back, to the point that you will either straight up faill to wall them or you will completely wall them, meaning you will be overprepared for them. And i still can't see why they aplly this logic only to rain offense. DragMag teams do the same, spamming boosted Outrages and DMs until the break through the Dragon-type resists and sweep with Scarf Mence or Scarf Kyu-B, or whatever. Stall teams are difficult to play against if you don't have a solid wallbreaker and a Rapid Spinner (or two wallbreakers and no rapid spinner), meaning that you must use ~2 Pokemon to deal with them, or you will end up struggling against them. Those teams are very difficult to play around if you lack the toolls to deal with them, exactly as it happens with rain teams.

I have said it in the debate thread and i will say it here too, rain offense has never been one of my main concerns when teambuilding. Sand stall and certain Pokemon (Keldeo, Terrakion, Jirachi, Kyurem-B) have been much harder threats to prepare for, so i don't even get why some people say that preparing for rain is so hard. We have a ton of ways to deal with rain offense, and of 'course you can't stick 1-2 Pokemon in your team to deal with rain offense, as you can't do the same with any good playstyle, otherwise the playstyle wouldn't be good. Would you want to use a playstyle that gets shut down by the combo of two Pokemon? Of 'course rain teams need preparation and are sometimes hard to face, they are some of the best teams around for god's sake, but they are not too powerful for the metagame, nor do they make the metagame more match-up based than skill based, as the players have plenty of options available to build not heavy match-up based teams.

 

[TheValkyries]

Why even have the exclusivity of the other thread if the argument is just going to spill over into this one?

 

[HabibsHotDogs]

What i get from the pro-banners is that 2-3 Pokemon that use rain boosted attacks are difficult to hold back, to the point that you will either straight up faill to wall them or you will completely wall them, meaning you will be overprepared for them. And i still can't see why they aplly this logic only to rain offense. DragMag teams do the same, spamming boosted Outrages and DMs until the break through the Dragon-type resists and sweep with Scarf Mence or Scarf Kyu-B, or whatever. Stall teams are difficult to play against if you don't have a solid wallbreaker and a Rapid Spinner (or two wallbreakers and no rapid spinner), meaning that you must use ~2 Pokemon to deal with them, or you will end up struggling against them. Those teams are very difficult to play around if you lack the toolls to deal with them, exactly as it happens with rain teams.

DragMag teams can be revenged with scarfers or if you were to apply strong offensive pressure to them they tend to buckle and have weaknesses to particular pokemon etc. Rain teams can cover pretty much everything they're weak to, the diversity is huge, 120 power hurricanes, scalds and thunders with 30% chances to status is HUGE and no other weather even comes close. Tentacruel and Starmie are both excellent spinners and get even better in rain, Ferrothorn loves switching into the best resistors of Tornadus and Dragonite hurricanes, Dugtrio works much better for rain teams than for sand or sun, Jirachi can wall significantly better when it may be less worried about fire coverage. Heck even Toxicroak can wall all 3 "S Rank" pokemon if it has rain on its side..

Lets not forget how easily rain is kept up compared to other weathers when it can make the best use of spinners, Politoed hits the next best 3 weather starters for SE damage and the number of ways rain can deal with its checks and counters is much larger than what sun/hail can do and reasonably better than what sand can do.

When we compare rain to sun, we are comparing a diverse weather to a homogenous one, sun is very limited. It has no good spinners that benefit from sun, it has chlorophyll sweepers that tend to be walled by the same pokemon and lack power, politoed has an x4 resistance to fire, Tyranitar has an x3 resistance to special fire attacks, some of the best sun abusers are weak to stealth rock and really the "abusers" are all fire, grass or dragon types, compare this to water, grass, steel, flying, bug, dragon, poison and electric types. Before anybody says ground types and rock types benefit from no water weakness, consider that almost no pokemon use water type attacks for coverage, unlike fire type coverage.

As far as stall goes I can't remember the last time anybody said it was difficult to play against stall?