Top Tier Pokemon

[BKC]

i don't know if gengar is in the same class as tyranitar/suicune/celebi. there's no denying it's one of the best adv mons, but it's just not at the same level of being able to make or break a game as those three.

i haven't seen anyone use an ice beam dd tyranitar in the 2 years i've been playing adv. for some reason flygon isn't as popular as i'm told it once was.

 

[EnvoyOfTheEnd]

So could it be said that Zapdos synergizes well will Salamence or other Ice Beam weak sweepers, since it tanks them well, and pressure will help eliminate them sooner or later? Who works well as teammates for specially defensive Zapdos? Also, how adept is it at tanking physical hits, despite its rock weakness?

 

[EnvoyOfTheEnd]

Dragonite is not really terrible, but most of the things that Dragonite is good at, Salamence can do better. There are things that Dragonite can do that Salamence cannot, but they are mostly niche things. Dragonite has a wider movepool, but Salamence has more speed. Dragonite has better defenses, but Salamence has Intimidate. Salamence gets Wish, Dragonite gets Heal Bell. But most of the time, you'll be wanting a Choice Band or Dragon Dance set, and Mence does this better. There's no reason to use Dragonite when Salamence is available, unless you absolutely need the extra moves.

Ice Beam Ttar is really cool for people that use Flygon to cover you, but you'll be open to being statused or phazed by a lot of Pokemon without Taunt. I have never used Curse ttar, though, so I'm not sure how he plays.

Swampert plays different from other bulky waters because he trades water and ice resists for a rock resist and electric immunity. The rock resist is awesome, but the electric immunity is enough to make some Pokemon that would otherwise be monstrous (Raikou, for one) a lot less useful, because they need to run HPGrass instead of HPIce (or Fire). Ice or Fire are useful against a whole lot more Pokemon, but you run the risk of your opponent having a Swampert, and rendering your Pokemon 100% ineffective. And man, it's really hard to break a wall when it only has one weakness.

Steel types make great Rock resists until you realize that most rock sliders run Earthquake right next to it. Skarmory/Forretress are great, but there's always the Magneton threat. Swampert has the ability to take both of these, AND has two STABs that hit super effective against lots of quakesliders.

Swampert is awesome.



wrt Hydro Pump Salamence, you could run it, but why? What does it hit better than HPFly/EQ/Rockslide? Even on CBMence, I would rather use Fire Blast as a special attack, because again, what are you hitting that you can't hit with your other moves?

And to be honest, I agree about the CB/DD thing. I would rather take CB, because I like Ttar and Gyarados better as DDers.

On Metagross, I guess it's up to you what item to use. I like CB for the immediate power, and it's good for luring out Pokemon that are weak to electric types, due to how ridiculously hard it is to take a CB Meteor Mash.




Really? I agree about ttar celebi suicune, but is gar really that much better than everything else? It's dangerous, fast, unpredictable, and has great immunities, but the low defenses make it pretty vulnerable. It's a great Pokemon, don't get me wrong, but I wouldn't put it in the same class as the other three.

i don't know if gengar is in the same class as tyranitar/suicune/celebi. there's no denying it's one of the best adv mons, but it's just not at the same level of being able to make or break a game as those three.

i haven't seen anyone use an ice beam dd tyranitar in the 2 years i've been playing adv. for some reason flygon isn't as popular as i'm told it once was.

I used to run taunt on my ddance ttar to stop phazers and such, but I found ice beam to be more useful. However I was running some damage calcs yesterday, and It turns out that even a fully invested flygon cannot ohko tyranitar with earthquake unless it has a choice band, which means I could potentially get another dragon dance off. Pretty neat, I though. However the general utility of taunt cannot be denied.

 

[BKC]

zapdos is good at taking weaker ice beams from defensive mons like swampert/blissey/porygon2 but it's going to crumble against things that are more offensively oriented and/or have STAB (suicune, jynx, articuno). it usually runs 32 defense EVs so it can survive aerodactyl's rock slide at high health, although it usually doesn't need to take physical attacks unless it's going up against gyarados.

it likes being paired with skarm (spikes that can be abused with zap's roar) and claydol/flygon/swampert (rock resist, latter two can be paired to wall other electrics regardless of what hidden power they choose).

offensive zapdos (sub/bpass/tbolt/hp ice) is underrated btw! it hits a lot harder than most people expect since it's investing in special attack.

hp bug is generally the best last move on ddtar, as it rapes celebi and gets good damage on claydol. it has neutral coverage on flygon which is ok.

 

[meteor64]

Roar Zapdos synergises especially well with DDmence, actually, since you suck up Pert/Milo/Cune Ice beams and with Spikes down you wear them down even faster than you would with Mence alone. Cune can also do this but I find it struggles retaining tempo like Zapdos does since it takes Spikes and cant really do much back to those mons without setting up.

Basically anything with Spikes is a Zapdos partner. Steelix id a good choice since together they can check a butt-ton of stuff and Lix also has Roar to mess with Spikes even more.

Don't let Zap take physical hits unless you absolutely have to. It's not that its especially bad at it, but it has better things to be taking.

Also @BKC I'd actually argue the opposite, recently I've seen more games made winnable by Gar than any other mon ever, but opinons are opinions

 

[EnvoyOfTheEnd]

I see, so thats what to do with Zapdos then. I had been wondering who to pair it with, and I had yet to try it with a rock resist other than metagross, who also resists ice beam. Im used to using the special sweeper set from B/W, so I was aware of its defensive prowess but had never really understood why. Thanks for the info. How often do people run support options like light screen or thunder wave on zapdos? I tried it out (a specially defensive one) to help support the team and make it easier for heracross to sweep, and it worked pretty well.

 

[EnvoyOfTheEnd]

Roar Zapdos synergises especially well with DDmence, actually, since you suck up Pert/Milo/Cune Ice beams and with Spikes down you wear them down even faster than you would with Mence alone. Cune can also do this but I find it struggles retaining tempo like Zapdos does since it takes Spikes and cant really do much back to those mons without setting up.

Basically anything with Spikes is a Zapdos partner. Steelix id a good choice since together they can check a butt-ton of stuff and Lix also has Roar to mess with Spikes even more.

Don't let Zap take physical hits unless you absolutely have to. It's not that its especially bad at it, but it has better things to be taking.

Also @BKC I'd actually argue the opposite, recently I've seen more games made winnable by Gar than any other mon ever, but opinons are opinions

I will be trying that out this weekend, Ive been looking for ways to make DDMence more effective, and if Zapdos can help I'm all for it, it has always been one of my favorite legendaries. And since Zapdos should be avoiding physical hits, do you have an offensive suggestion for someone who could take those, and hit back decently hard? I was thinking metagross, but I'm sure you guys have other choices.

 

[BKC]

tbolt/restalk/(roar/hp grass/toxic) is all i've ever needed on defensive zapdos. leave light screen to milotic/claydol, which is lots of fun when paired with skarm.

cb metagross is a very good partner as far as resisting zapdos's weaknesses and being a dangerous offensive presence is concerned. it also breaks down physical walls for ddmence to sweep!

 

[meteor64]

Metagross is no wall, although it does partner good with Zap in a purely defensive way. Your best choice is a bulky water like Pert or Cune, or Skarm if you want to nail the Spikes+Wall criteria in one poke.

edit-heh, ninja'd

 

[EnvoyOfTheEnd]

Metagross is no wall, although it does partner good with Zap in a purely defensive way. Your best choice is a bulky water like Pert or Cune, or Skarm if you want to nail the Spikes+Wall criteria in one poke.

edit-heh, ninja'd

With Metagross's massive defense and decent HP stat, could one make a defensive variant? Lets say Impish or Relaxed Nature, you could even run dual screens if you wanted, then Meteor mash and Equake or Rest. Just an idea, however i think a defensive metagross is entierly viable, given his defense is almost as high as his attack. And because Brozong dosent exist in this generation, there woudlnt really be an argument about him being outclassed as a dual screener. However, I would like to know who the best dual screeners are in this generation.

 

[EnvoyOfTheEnd]

tbolt/restalk/(roar/hp grass/toxic) is all i've ever needed on defensive zapdos. leave light screen to milotic/claydol, which is lots of fun when paired with skarm.

cb metagross is a very good partner as far as resisting zapdos's weaknesses and being a dangerous offensive presence is concerned. it also breaks down physical walls for ddmence to sweep!

Well that sounds like a great idea. Heh, half my team down already, Salamence, Zapdos, Metagross. I use those pokemon all the time though, However I have only used choice band metagross once, and found it incredibly powerful and a lot of fun. My metagross is usually agility or mixed.

 

[meteor64]

Viable on other, specialised teams maybe but I don't think it'd be beneficial to go defensive here since you need to be on the offense to break mences checks. A 4 attack lefties set should be more useful I would think.

 

[EnvoyOfTheEnd]

Well alright, that sounds like a good idea. Does anyone here use sludge bomb or shadow ball on metagross, or is that not seen very often?

 

[meteor64]

Rock Slide is better, Meteor Mash wrecks Gar and Celebi almost as much as those whilst Gyarados and Zapdos have a fairly easy time getting in if you dont have RS.

 

[EnvoyOfTheEnd]

is explosion absolutely neccecary, or could I run another coverage move instead?

 

[meteor64]

You can run HP Grass over RS, but i wouldn't advise losing explosion, its too useful.

 

[EnvoyOfTheEnd]

I see. well alrighty then, thank you for the input. Thats actually all the questions I can think of at the moment, thank you guys very much for your help. I will definently be back o this thread when I have more questions though.

 

[HUARGH]

Breloom without Sub is very bad, it really needs it to work. Swords Dance Breloom is kinda eh since it only has one STAB to use and while Sky Uppercut is strong it doesn't really have a lot else going for it. Realistically you're looking at a set like SD/Spore/Sky Uppercut/filler, probably HP ghost- you miss out on Sub and Mach Punch, but theres no room for them anyway since all those moves are important.

And then you realise Heracross is better at SD anyway.

As far as I'm concerned theres one Breloom set worth using, and its not really anything outstanding-
-Sub
-Focus Punch
-Spore
-Hidden Power Rock or Ghost/Leech Seed

But its nowhere near as good as in later gens because restalk is fairly common and celebi is on way too many teams, and Poison Heal doesn't exist.

Heracross is better.

Eh I don't really agree, substituteless is a viable option as well. After your spore you get a free fpunch, no need to waste 25% of your hitpoints as you're probably swapping out after that regardless. Besides, what are you gonna do when something like Salamence switches in on you, intimidates you and then have you make a substitute - what prevents him from using dragon dance?

 

[meteor64]

Who said you'd be subbing every time you Spore something? That's not how you play the set. HP Rock is an option there purely for catching Mence on a switch, which is the only move you should be making if you know they have a Mence (assuming youve already Spored something) so really I don't see what you're getting at.

 

[AraShaun]

Hello All.

Ive found that Breloom only really has Focus punch going for it, and a Subseed Sporepunch set is the only one thats ever worked well for me. My experiences have him Punching one or two things then being used as a SubSeeder wall type thing (albiet not the best one)

On a second note, is there any reason to run umbreon over Vaporeon? Unless youre doing Celebi Shenanigans (which seems like a waste of Celebi) is Vaporeon just better?

 

[EnvoyOfTheEnd]

Hello All.

Ive found that Breloom only really has Focus punch going for it, and a Subseed Sporepunch set is the only one thats ever worked well for me. My experiences have him Punching one or two things then being used as a SubSeeder wall type thing (albiet not the best one)

On a second note, is there any reason to run umbreon over Vaporeon? Unless youre doing Celebi Shenanigans (which seems like a waste of Celebi) is Vaporeon just better?

They fill different roles, vaporeon serves as a physical sweeper check for the likes of salamence and ttar, while umbreon is usually more of a special wall, however as far a physical walls go, i feel like its a toss up. Umbreon has significantly higher defense and instant recovery in moonlight, hwoever both get wish and baton pass, and vaporeon has significantly higher HP. it all depends on what you want to do with them, you cant really call one better than the other, considering they frequently do different things for the teams they are on (although they can occasionally fill similar roles).

 

[AraShaun]

They fill different roles, vaporeon serves as a physical sweeper check for the likes of salamence and ttar, while umbreon is usually more of a special wall, however as far a physical walls go, i feel like its a toss up. Umbreon has significantly higher defense and instant recovery in moonlight, hwoever both get wish and baton pass, and vaporeon has significantly higher HP. it all depends on what you want to do with them, you cant really call one better than the other, considering they frequently do different things for the teams they are on (although they can occasionally fill similar roles).

Ok, didnt think of it like that. I just saw both as a decent Defensive backbone, but Vappy seemed a tad more decent XD

I was running Umbreon with Weezing for a while to some success, how would this fare today? Weezing seems a bit weak compared to some other mons out there

 

[EnvoyOfTheEnd]

Ok, didnt think of it like that. I just saw both as a decent Defensive backbone, but Vappy seemed a tad more decent XD

I was running Umbreon with Weezing for a while to some success, how would this fare today? Weezing seems a bit weak compared to some other mons out there

you are right in that they are both defensive, its just that they tend to check different threats. I honestly cannot tell you about weezing, as I havent yet trained the one I bred, so I dont know what its like to play with him. From what I've read, he is a decent physical wall, however he lacks any kind of decent recovery, making him less desirable than other physical walls. he also isnt capable of phazing (i do not believe he has access to roar), thus making him inferior to skarmory. His defense is amazing though, and he isnt by any means bad, just outclassed by other walls. His typing does provide him with a nice resistance to fighting and bug though (great for walling the very dangerous heracross, who would tear umbreon in half), and his ability makes him immune to one of his only two weaknesses, ground type moves. I would think he could work decently with umbreon, considering Umbreon is better suited as a special wall (although she can just as easily wall physicall hits) and can tank the special hits that weezing dosent like so much. They also synergize well, with umbreon being immune to weezings only weakness (psychic) and with weezing resisting umbreons psycical weakness (fighting and bug). So in my opinion, yes, they would work well together. Thats actually a very good idea.

 

[AraShaun]

you are right in that they are both defensive, its just that they tend to check different threats. I honestly cannot tell you about weezing, as I havent yet trained the one I bred, so I dont know what its like to play with him. From what I've read, he is a decent physical wall, however he lacks any kind of decent recovery, making him less desirable than other physical walls. he also isnt capable of phazing (i do not believe he has access to roar), thus making him inferior to skarmory. His defense is amazing though, and he isnt by any means bad, just outclassed by other walls. His typing does provide him with a nice resistance to fighting and bug though (great for walling the very dangerous heracross, who would tear umbreon in half), and his ability makes him immune to one of his only two weaknesses, ground type moves. I would think he could work decently with umbreon, considering Umbreon is better suited as a special wall (although she can just as easily wall physicall hits) and can tank the special hits that weezing dosent like so much. They also synergize well, with umbreon being immune to weezings only weakness (psychic) and with weezing resisting umbreons psycical weakness (fighting and bug). So in my opinion, yes, they would work well together. Thats actually a very good idea.

Weezing has access to Haze, which in my team back in the day (not the best team however) preferred over Roar to deal with Curselax and other last attempt CM'ers. The team was spikesless and instead focused on Burn and Toxic for its residual damage.
Weezing has no reliable recovery, however he does have Pain Split which helps somewhat, and as was stated Umbreon is able to pass a Wish to him, which is very helpful.

EDIT: He also has access to Rest, which is reliable on a given team such as mine, which usually feature rest heavily and carry 1 or 2 Clerics

 

[EnvoyOfTheEnd]

Weezing has access to Haze, which in my team back in the day (not the best team however) preferred over Roar to deal with Curselax and other last attempt CM'ers. The team was spikesless and instead focused on Burn and Toxic for its residual damage.
Weezing has no reliable recovery, however he does have Pain Split which helps somewhat, and as was stated Umbreon is able to pass a Wish to him, which is very helpful.

EDIT: He also has access to Rest, which is reliable on a given team such as mine, which usually feature rest heavily and carry 1 or 2 Clerics

My teams are usually spikesless as well, and I also make use of rest and use celebi as a cleric, so I can understand weezing as a choice of physical wall and stat up remover.