Butterfree has a niche of being the only sleep-inducing Quiver Dancing Pokemon in NU. It is likely that if you see it in the team preview, Butterfree is going to be something you want to get rid of unless you have a Lum Berry Pokemon (which is not on all teams). It is SR weak, but one of its jobs is prevent it from being set up. Although I have to admit it isn't very good anymore, its still C because of that particular niche, as well as being a decent late-game sweeper with Sleep Powder and Quiver Dance in its arsenal.
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The dual Powder set isn't worried about outspeeding offensive threats. As FLCL stated in his post, it is one of the best ways to prevent Rocks from being set up on your side of the field. The general idea of said set is to put the opposing Rock setter to sleep with Sleep Powder, then either U-Turn to gain early game momentum or stay in and use Stun Spore expecting some kind of switch. Since Butterfree is often seen wielding Quiver Dance, switches will often happen so as to prevent you from being able to set up. It can also support its team beyond the early game initiative and statusing through the use of Tailwind which is an often underlooked, albeit incredibly viable, strategy. All of these qualities added together are some of the things that make Butterfree such a good Pokemon to have on your team.
Choice Scarf Primeape is hardly on every team as well. Besides which, with a Focus Sash, Primeape either has to choose to try and break the Sash with Stone Edge and risk both missing and being Paralyzed or U-Turn out on Butterfree. Once again, Butterfree is rarely something you are going to revenge kill with a Scarfer when it is running its Dual Powder set.
Also, the Quiver Dance set can still use Sleep Powder with Tinted Lens to great effect. You have to consider that Sleep Powder is still a great move, even with 75% accuracy. The slightly shaky (but still excellent) accuracy does not keep Roserade from running it in UU or Tangrowth from running it in RU. The same applies to Butterfree. The move is solid in every tier, and it should not be discounted or ignored any more than Focus Blast or Stone Edge.
Ultimately, Butterfree is fine in C-Rank. No, it isn't the best Pokemon in the tier; however, it is also by no means mediocre. Depending on the set, it can disturb your opponent's strategy early on into the game or it can pull off a sweep with some Quiver Dance boosts. Its versatility and the sheer disturbance that the Dual Powder set causes are plenty enough reason to use it.
Choice Scarf Primeape is hardly on every team as well. Besides which, with a Focus Sash, Primeape either has to choose to try and break the Sash with Stone Edge and risk both missing and being Paralyzed or U-Turn out on Butterfree. Once again, Butterfree is rarely something you are going to revenge kill with a Scarfer when it is running its Dual Powder set.
Also, the Quiver Dance set can still use Sleep Powder with Tinted Lens to great effect. You have to consider that Sleep Powder is still a great move, even with 75% accuracy. The slightly shaky (but still excellent) accuracy does not keep Roserade from running it in UU or Tangrowth from running it in RU. The same applies to Butterfree. The move is solid in every tier, and it should not be discounted or ignored any more than Focus Blast or Stone Edge.
Ultimately, Butterfree is fine in C-Rank. No, it isn't the best Pokemon in the tier; however, it is also by no means mediocre. Depending on the set, it can disturb your opponent's strategy early on into the game or it can pull off a sweep with some Quiver Dance boosts. Its versatility and the sheer disturbance that the Dual Powder set causes are plenty enough reason to use it.
I still think Butterfree could be dropped, but I will let it go. Though I think lead Butterfree to prevent rocks from getting up is painfully obvious, and you can simply send out something like Liepard to Taunt it.
Pretty much everything that FLCL and Treecko37 stated applies to actual data and as to why you should hopefully now understand how your argument is so flawed, FortressDoor. I'm not going to talk about why Butterfree should stay in C-rank since everything has been covered so far, but what you happen to be doing right now is making claims that are either false, irrelevant, or just plain silly. Also, please stop speculating "but it can only blah blah blah" ludicrous statements, since that can be plainly stated for almost every other Pokemon. Saying that it can only put one thing to sleep was the worst you have done in your argument against Butterfree's placing, since once again, that can be said for almost every other Pokemon with a sleep-inducing move.
Mawile isn't a sweeper. Thanks to sheer force its super-effective moves are probably KO'ing their target, which is more than can be said for something like wartortle or alomomola. Like I said here (section 2) Mawile runs a variety of sets very well. Thanks to intimidate and her ability to taunt, it can be an effective anti-lead, despite sub-par speed. THanks to its amazing monosteel typing, it can be a great sun-setter on sun teams.
Unfortunately, in several ways it ends up out-classed by regirock. An odd comparison, but they usually have the same roles on teams. Mawile is, however, effective enough, strong enough and has a bunch of niches that I think shoots it into B rank.
Yeah, I was probably over-shooting a bit with wartortle. I'll leave that one.
The thing with Mawile is his stats are....average at best, none exceeding 85 (Misdreavus at least has Eviolite and usable speed). This greatly limits his potential to fulfill any task to that great extent. I will admit Mawile's movepool is the most diverse of all Steel-types in NU, but his vanilla stats hold him back when trying to use each set.
If you want Taunt, you'll need some speed, otherwise Mawile can't stop Stealth Rock, Spikes and Will-o-Wisps being thrown his way (Mawile is slower than Roselia, Tangela, Weezing and Alomomola, and speedties with Regirock and Piloswine), weakening Taunt's potential and forces you to give up some precious bulk to outpace them. The fact that most Stealth Rockers can beat him one-on-one (Magnet Pull Probopass D:) also stunts him in that aspect.
Mawile makes for an okay wall, with many support moves in Taunt, SR and Super Fang at his disposal. However, his stats again hod him back from his potential. My Ice-resist risks being 2HKOed by LO Jynx's Ice Beam after Spikes and OHKOed by Focus Blast? Intimdate and a better movepool are indeed perks over Metang, but weakness to Fighting and having Sucker Punch instead of Bullet Punch to dodge Lovely Kiss means Mawile doesn't fare as well against Primeape and Jynx, two premier offensive threats in the tier that Metang can take on one-on-one (or even both if Jynx can be KOed by Bullet Punch). Metang's Eviolited bulk means it can go offensive while still taking hits; Mawile cannot afford to do so.
I've tried Baton Pass Mawile, and it's neat, packing SD or Iron Defense to pass the boosts along and Taunts phazing moves or Perish Song. However, I find Mawile to be pretty damn frail even with SpDef boosts because, you guessed it, piss poor HP.
SD Sheer Force Mawile can surprise opponents, but with such sluggish speed and reliance on Sucker Punch against the majority of faster opponents (plus it stats ugh) means it won't be leaving too much of an impact.
Let's look at the descriptions of each rank, shall we?
If you want Taunt, you'll need some speed, otherwise Mawile can't stop Stealth Rock, Spikes and Will-o-Wisps being thrown his way (Mawile is slower than Roselia, Tangela, Weezing and Alomomola, and speedties with Regirock and Piloswine), weakening Taunt's potential and forces you to give up some precious bulk to outpace them. The fact that most Stealth Rockers can beat him one-on-one (Magnet Pull Probopass D:) also stunts him in that aspect.
Mawile makes for an okay wall, with many support moves in Taunt, SR and Super Fang at his disposal. However, his stats again hod him back from his potential. My Ice-resist risks being 2HKOed by LO Jynx's Ice Beam after Spikes and OHKOed by Focus Blast? Intimdate and a better movepool are indeed perks over Metang, but weakness to Fighting and having Sucker Punch instead of Bullet Punch to dodge Lovely Kiss means Mawile doesn't fare as well against Primeape and Jynx, two premier offensive threats in the tier that Metang can take on one-on-one (or even both if Jynx can be KOed by Bullet Punch). Metang's Eviolited bulk means it can go offensive while still taking hits; Mawile cannot afford to do so.
I've tried Baton Pass Mawile, and it's neat, packing SD or Iron Defense to pass the boosts along and Taunts phazing moves or Perish Song. However, I find Mawile to be pretty damn frail even with SpDef boosts because, you guessed it, piss poor HP.
SD Sheer Force Mawile can surprise opponents, but with such sluggish speed and reliance on Sucker Punch against the majority of faster opponents (plus it stats ugh) means it won't be leaving too much of an impact.
Let's look at the descriptions of each rank, shall we?
Yeah I'd be hard pressed to call Mawile great in the NU metagame. Sure, it can do one of its numerous jobs from time to time (which is hella better than a certain trash bug can hope to do :P), but its main flaw, its stats, is not an obstacle it can overcome by itself. It doesn't have reliable recovery, it needs speed investment to Taunt things worth Taunting, its bulk is very meh (with investment) if the opponent is not Intimidated, and suffers 4MSS (Metang rarely does). Mawile stays in C-Rank.
Sorry for the double post. I almost forgot to elaborate on Victreebel (and Sawsbuck) but didn't want to continue on my last post cos' too long :P
Before the tier shifts, Sawsbuck was a menace to defensive teams due to his great coverage, while Victreebel decimates offensive teams when under the Sun. This time around, NU has gravitated slightly towards offense, with base 95 speed becoming the new "standard", which Sawsbuck just barely edges out in. However, the greater emphasis in speed popularized threats like Charizard, Swellow and Zebstrika, while Scolipede eats Sawsbuck alive. To make matters worse, Scarf Jynx, Scarf Ape and Weezing are getting popular. Sawsbuck has to don a Scarf of its own to keep up with the faster threats, and it is much less effective than Jynx and Primeape in this role due to easily resisted STABs and lack of U-Turn or Trick. Weezing hardwalls Sawsbuck too.
This is not to say Sawsbuck cannot function anymore, it just has to adapt. With Sun support, Sawsbuck blitzes through these offensive threats while packing power and the ability to switch moves, utilizing its great coverage. The downside of Sawsbuck is that it doesn't have Growth like Victreebel has, not like its Special Attack can be made use of effectively (*hint hint). Victreebel has also gotten more viable in this meta, with its Weather ball easily tearing through the opposition. Even Specially Defensive Regice fears +2 LO Weather Ball, and faster threats, especially the dropdowns, simply crumble to Victreebel's offensive might. In my opinion, what gives Victreebel the edge over Sawsbuck in this meta is his ability to attack from either side of the spectrum. Suddenly your Munchlax/Grumpig/Mantine are shredded by +2 LO Leaf Blade with 4 Attack EVs, and it still packs enough power for its regular Grass-weak targets like Alomomola and Max HP Regirock to OHKO after +2, still with 4 Attack EVs. While both Victreebel and Sawsbuck (to a lesser extent) are dependant on Sun to realise their potential, the fact that Sun is very potent right now should give them an edge. Sawsbuck (demoted because it's not as good as it was before without Sun) and Victreebel (promoted because Sun got loads better) for B-Rank.
Before the tier shifts, Sawsbuck was a menace to defensive teams due to his great coverage, while Victreebel decimates offensive teams when under the Sun. This time around, NU has gravitated slightly towards offense, with base 95 speed becoming the new "standard", which Sawsbuck just barely edges out in. However, the greater emphasis in speed popularized threats like Charizard, Swellow and Zebstrika, while Scolipede eats Sawsbuck alive. To make matters worse, Scarf Jynx, Scarf Ape and Weezing are getting popular. Sawsbuck has to don a Scarf of its own to keep up with the faster threats, and it is much less effective than Jynx and Primeape in this role due to easily resisted STABs and lack of U-Turn or Trick. Weezing hardwalls Sawsbuck too.
This is not to say Sawsbuck cannot function anymore, it just has to adapt. With Sun support, Sawsbuck blitzes through these offensive threats while packing power and the ability to switch moves, utilizing its great coverage. The downside of Sawsbuck is that it doesn't have Growth like Victreebel has, not like its Special Attack can be made use of effectively (*hint hint). Victreebel has also gotten more viable in this meta, with its Weather ball easily tearing through the opposition. Even Specially Defensive Regice fears +2 LO Weather Ball, and faster threats, especially the dropdowns, simply crumble to Victreebel's offensive might. In my opinion, what gives Victreebel the edge over Sawsbuck in this meta is his ability to attack from either side of the spectrum. Suddenly your Munchlax/Grumpig/Mantine are shredded by +2 LO Leaf Blade with 4 Attack EVs, and it still packs enough power for its regular Grass-weak targets like Alomomola and Max HP Regirock to OHKO after +2, still with 4 Attack EVs. While both Victreebel and Sawsbuck (to a lesser extent) are dependant on Sun to realise their potential, the fact that Sun is very potent right now should give them an edge. Sawsbuck (demoted because it's not as good as it was before without Sun) and Victreebel (promoted because Sun got loads better) for B-Rank.
No problem about the double post.
It's interesting to note that Heat Rock last year was suspected largely because of the offensive presence that the two gained upon the rising of Sun alongside Charizard and Exeggutor. They are easily the most irreplaceable assets of Sun.
While I believe that you do overestimate Victreebel's ability to utilize Growth (it's setup opportunities are quite iffy within the offensive nature of the metagame), thus somewhat overestimating the Pokemon's viability in comparison to Sawsbuck, I do agree that Victreebel's offensive versatility within one of the highest mixed offensive stats, Sleep Powder, Sucker Punch, and the ability to boost its stats should be enough to edge it higher towards B-rank potential.
I can also see why Sawsbuck could potentially drop which is fine by me, but I think that you also disregarded the fact of its sweeping potential with Swords Dance, Dual STAB (it's not the best but it still has decent coverage against a variety of common threats), Horn Leech, and the fact that all of the Pokemon that you mentioned Victreebel's ability to beat are Pokemon that Sawsbuck can easily beat as well after its respective boost and both usually can wreck through most teams within Sun support, more or less.
For NU, his stats aren't actually that bad. I mean, a great thing at his disposal in intimidate really is invaluable; Qwilfish doesn't have that good stats, especially for RU, but intimidate and great defensive typing gives him a great shot of getting into UU thanks to usage. Mawile has both of these, sure, his stats are worse and the meta-game of NU is not that nice to it right now, but it is still very much worthy of B rank.
Well, you can keep hazards off the field? Then it's a OHKO on jynx and, if you are really scared of it, you can essentially sack mawile to take out jynx. Legit.
So now pretty powerful attacks that are double the power of it's alternative on a physically defensive weak pokemon isn't enough to take it out, thanks to STAB? I don't think so... (sucker punch takes out jynx fine).
And metang's bullet punch 4HKOs 252Atk Light Metal Metang (Neutral) Bullet Punch vs 0HP/0Def Primeape (Neutral): 25% - 30% (69 - 82 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO. primeape, hardly impressive. :/
A physical wall versus arguably the best special attacker in the meta-game. Not a fair comparison in my opinion, but even so it is 3HKO'd.
Now tell me why having eviolite available to you is better than having leftovers recovery, especially since metang would have better bulk without eviolite. Not mawile being bad, metang being good.
Darn right baton pass mawile is good! :)
But it hits hard. It is one of those support pokemon that also is able to hit incredibly hard. Many pokemon aren't going to set up on it, it has priority and an extremely powerful iron head thanks to sheer force at its disposal. It is B rank at the very least, I am hoping you can see it now. :/
I have actually been wanting to see how it would fare in RU lately, and I have to say I was very surprised indeed! In a meta-game that is nicer to it, it can do so well it is just mad. I think that further proves that while the current NU meta-game isn't that nice to it it still does well.
The point is, Metang has a better defensive typing as well as generally better stats. Metang fully outclasses Mawile, even, unless you want Taunt, and then you need speed, which detracts from Mawile's already low bulk. Really, why would you bother if Misdreavus does the Taunt job better and Metang the SR-setting job.
Also, it's worth a note that Mawile's Sucker Punch also 4HKO's Primeape, which is not much different from Metang's Bullet Punch.
SD Mawile's Sucker Punch, as a reference point: 23.61 - 28.04%
Of course, Mawile can OHKO with Iron Head, but hey, Primeape is faster and can OHKO with Close Combat even after Intimidate while it wields a Scarf, whereas Metang doesn't give a shit about whatever Primeape might do.
Calcs involving Primeape and Mawile:
And Metang versus Jynx and Primeape.
(Metang should run significant Attack investment and Adamant, no exceptions to that rule with standard SR-setting sets, 160 Attack EV's is quite the minimum and more is possible, depending on how much Speed you want.).
Mawile can't switch into Jynx as some variants run Focus Blast, and SubPlot beats Mawile anyway because Mawile needs turns to break that Sub as well as to KO (and Sucker Punch won't do squat if Jynx uses Nasty Plot/Substitute instead of another move).
Thus, we proved Mawile can't switch into Jynx while Metang can, Metang can reliably KO back with Bullet Punch while Metang can.
Mawile can revenge-kill in a semi-reliable way, but it is nothing compared to Metang for reasons explained already, either in this post or in Punchshroom's.
Thus, Mawile should stay in C-Rank. If I had to change it, I would sooner put it in D-Rank than in B-Rank.
Also, it's worth a note that Mawile's Sucker Punch also 4HKO's Primeape, which is not much different from Metang's Bullet Punch.
SD Mawile's Sucker Punch, as a reference point: 23.61 - 28.04%
Of course, Mawile can OHKO with Iron Head, but hey, Primeape is faster and can OHKO with Close Combat even after Intimidate while it wields a Scarf, whereas Metang doesn't give a shit about whatever Primeape might do.
Calcs involving Primeape and Mawile:
252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 28 HP / 0 Def Mawile: 390-458 (157.25 - 184.67%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 250-294 (92.25 - 108.48%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 250-294 (92.25 - 108.48%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
And Metang versus Jynx and Primeape.
160+ Atk Metang Bullet Punch vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 204-240 (74.72 - 87.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
248 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Metang: 57-68 (17.59 - 20.98%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 112-133 (34.56 - 41.04%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
248 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Metang: 57-68 (17.59 - 20.98%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 112-133 (34.56 - 41.04%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Metang should run significant Attack investment and Adamant, no exceptions to that rule with standard SR-setting sets, 160 Attack EV's is quite the minimum and more is possible, depending on how much Speed you want.).
Mawile can't switch into Jynx as some variants run Focus Blast, and SubPlot beats Mawile anyway because Mawile needs turns to break that Sub as well as to KO (and Sucker Punch won't do squat if Jynx uses Nasty Plot/Substitute instead of another move).
248 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 28 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 114-135 (45.96 - 54.43%) -- 58.98% chance to 2HKO
248 SpA Jynx Focus Blast vs. 28 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 386-456 (155.64 - 183.87%) -- guaranteed OHKO
248 SpA Jynx Focus Blast vs. 28 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 386-456 (155.64 - 183.87%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Thus, we proved Mawile can't switch into Jynx while Metang can, Metang can reliably KO back with Bullet Punch while Metang can.
Mawile can revenge-kill in a semi-reliable way, but it is nothing compared to Metang for reasons explained already, either in this post or in Punchshroom's.
Thus, Mawile should stay in C-Rank. If I had to change it, I would sooner put it in D-Rank than in B-Rank.
Ok, first off have you been reading my posts?
Metang doesn't learn baton pass.
Metang doesn't learn swords dance.
Metang isn't a good sun setter.
Metang doesn't have sheer force, thus weaker attacks.
Metang has advantages in defensive typing, so does Mawile.
Metang doesn't have intimidate.
Metang has a much weaker movepool than mawile.
Metang doesn't have taunt.
First off, like put in a previous post you didn't read, 252SpAtk Life Orb Jynx (Neutral) Ice Beam vs 252HP/36SpDef Mawile (+SpDef): 42% - 49% (128 - 151 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. Is good enouogh to counter Jynx, and that is being totally completely safe. With just 12 special defense EVs chances are you're not going to die.
Also what was the 28 HP on your mawile..? Just seems wrong to me.
I hardly call this not giving a shit anyway!
252Atk Primeape (+Atk) Close Combat vs 252HP/0Def Light Metal Metang (+Def): 52% - 61% (169 - 199 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
And that's a positive nature.
Also misdreavus and mawile only have physically walling and taunt in common...
I fail to see what you accomplished from that post to be quite honest.
Someone must agree with me here? Anyone..? :(
Metang doesn't learn baton pass.
Metang doesn't learn swords dance.
Metang isn't a good sun setter.
Metang doesn't have sheer force, thus weaker attacks.
Metang has advantages in defensive typing, so does Mawile.
Metang doesn't have intimidate.
Metang has a much weaker movepool than mawile.
Metang doesn't have taunt.
First off, like put in a previous post you didn't read, 252SpAtk Life Orb Jynx (Neutral) Ice Beam vs 252HP/36SpDef Mawile (+SpDef): 42% - 49% (128 - 151 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. Is good enouogh to counter Jynx, and that is being totally completely safe. With just 12 special defense EVs chances are you're not going to die.
Also what was the 28 HP on your mawile..? Just seems wrong to me.
I hardly call this not giving a shit anyway!
252Atk Primeape (+Atk) Close Combat vs 252HP/0Def Light Metal Metang (+Def): 52% - 61% (169 - 199 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
And that's a positive nature.
Also misdreavus and mawile only have physically walling and taunt in common...
I fail to see what you accomplished from that post to be quite honest.
Someone must agree with me here? Anyone..? :(
Celever, you're really starting to reach ahead of yourself within your back up claims within this argument. You need to stop going out on your way of antagonizing people just because they happen to disagree with you. While I do appreciate that you're trying to bring upon a well-founded contribution towards a potentially underrated threat, blatantly attacking people who disagrees with you just for the sake of justifying how the basis of your argument would weigh more matters towards everyone else's really is something that you should try to avoid, as you'll only be digging yourself into a deeper whole that you may not find yourself getting out of anytime soon within the resolution of your argument.
In summation, I think you just need to take time to analyze the opposition's points before going out your way of making assumptions that they are hardly listening toward what you're contending to. You don't have a right to say that he hasn't accomplished anything with his argument against yours when he explained virtually everything in according to where Metang indeed outshines Mawile upon various situations. From there, please try to be a bit more mindful about people's opinions, or else you may be getting yourself into a specific predicament in which people with have a hard time taking you seriously if you don't address these concerns accordingly.
I will appreciate that you take the time to adequately address these specific concerns before you decide to make another argument here.
If you are looking to Baton Pass Swords Dance boosts, you should probably use Ninjask or Scolipede due to their superior speed and offensive capabilities as well as Ninjask's ability to pass speed boosts.
If you are looking for a physical tank/a taunter, you should probably go with Misdreavus due to its superior typing for this meta and its (unreliable but still present) form of recovery.
I don't really see the appeal of using Mawile to set up sun to be honest. I would rather use something bulkier (Altaria, Regirock, Audino, Bastiodon all come to mind off the top of my head) or something that provides some other kind of niche support (Volbeat has Prankster, Encore and Thunder Wave at its disposal while Butterfree can status foes and U-Turn out).
As a sweeper, it is pretty severely outclassed by many other Pokemon in the tier. Jynx, Scolipede, Ursaring, among others are all better sweepers for a variety of reasons (most notably, they have much better speed to work with and better STAB moves to utilize).
And as for the comparison between the Metang and Mawile's defensive typing, the only advantages that Mawile has is that it resists Bug, Ghost, and Dark-type moves while Metang is only hit for neutral damage by them. Overall, I don't see that playing such a huge role, especially when Metang has superior bulk. Metang has 60/100/80 bulk in addition to Eviolite to utilize, while Mawile has 50/85/55 bulk and does not get access to Eviolite. Overall, I don't see much of a comparison between the two in this regard.
I personally just don't see much justification in using Mawile in general. I'm not saying that it's a terrible Pokemon--it's really not. But I am saying that in almost any of its roles, it is outclassed. Comparing offensive or Baton Pass Mawile to Metang doesn't really do much good either since Metang is rarely if ever found in the former role and never found in the latter. If you are going to compare the two, it only does any good to compare their defensive roles on a team as that is the reason why Metang is B-Rank. By this same regard, Mawile outclasses Sawk as a physical wall. But Sawk isn't an S-Rank threat for its ability to wall the tier.
If you are looking for a physical tank/a taunter, you should probably go with Misdreavus due to its superior typing for this meta and its (unreliable but still present) form of recovery.
I don't really see the appeal of using Mawile to set up sun to be honest. I would rather use something bulkier (Altaria, Regirock, Audino, Bastiodon all come to mind off the top of my head) or something that provides some other kind of niche support (Volbeat has Prankster, Encore and Thunder Wave at its disposal while Butterfree can status foes and U-Turn out).
As a sweeper, it is pretty severely outclassed by many other Pokemon in the tier. Jynx, Scolipede, Ursaring, among others are all better sweepers for a variety of reasons (most notably, they have much better speed to work with and better STAB moves to utilize).
And as for the comparison between the Metang and Mawile's defensive typing, the only advantages that Mawile has is that it resists Bug, Ghost, and Dark-type moves while Metang is only hit for neutral damage by them. Overall, I don't see that playing such a huge role, especially when Metang has superior bulk. Metang has 60/100/80 bulk in addition to Eviolite to utilize, while Mawile has 50/85/55 bulk and does not get access to Eviolite. Overall, I don't see much of a comparison between the two in this regard.
I personally just don't see much justification in using Mawile in general. I'm not saying that it's a terrible Pokemon--it's really not. But I am saying that in almost any of its roles, it is outclassed. Comparing offensive or Baton Pass Mawile to Metang doesn't really do much good either since Metang is rarely if ever found in the former role and never found in the latter. If you are going to compare the two, it only does any good to compare their defensive roles on a team as that is the reason why Metang is B-Rank. By this same regard, Mawile outclasses Sawk as a physical wall. But Sawk isn't an S-Rank threat for its ability to wall the tier.
I'm going to argue for Sudowoodo to be a bit higher, at the very least D-Rank. It might seem that he's outclassed by Golem, but the pseudotree has several advantages. For starters, not being part Ground-type means that he's not weak to Ice and is only 2x weak to Water and Grass. While he doesn't have Rock Blast, he has Wood Hammer, which is great for pulverizing Water, Rock and Ground types that think they have an easy time with him.
you're making it seem like having a rock / ground typing is disadvantageous when it's really not. that typing is what enables golem to be a powerful catch-all check to so many normal-, flying-, and electric-types (especially rotom-s) at once. the neutrality to ice-type attacks, and 2x weakness to grass- and water-type attacks barely matter since they'll most likely 1-2HKO sudowoodo regardless. you're even foregoing sturdy in order to use wood hammer, while a pokemon like golem will be able to take advantage of sturdy to the fullest, by either guaranteeing stealth rock or utilizing custap berry. i would also like to note that wood hammer hitting water- and rock-types doesn't really grant any advantages when a powerful STAB stone edge or earthquake from regirock, golem, or piloswine will do considerable damage for a 2HKO against some of such pokemon. just to provide an example, sudowoodo can't even cleanly OHKO samurott with wood hammer—golem will be able to achieve a 2HKO against it with earthquake anyway. lastly, sudowoodo's speed is lacking and it'll lose to other stealth rock setters thanks to sturdy or superior bulk.
Alright celever, I understand that you're trying to back up your claim that Mawile is B-Rank, however you have to understand that while Mawile has the movepool, stats and even typing to pull something off, his stats ultimately prevent him from doing his numerous jobs as well as he should.
As a bulky Steel, Metang's bulk is better than his before Eviolite, with said item also nullifying Intimidate's advantage. Not to mention Mawile's bulk is still pretty vanilla with investment, and is much more vulnerable to special blows than Metang. Metang can even afford max Attack investment to hit targets while retaining bulk; Mawile cannot.Mawile may have access to recovery and Taunt, but Metang's raw bulk and ability to hit semi-hard usually matters more in the long run and Mawile's disappointing speed means Taunt isn't as effective on it as it should be. His stats aren't bad by NU standards as you say (lol Watchog), but they are enough to stunt his potential.
Mawile being a good anti-lead with Taunt comes off as very iffy to me to say the least. Mawile still loses to many leads (Golem and Piloswine) and even other anti-leads (Sawk, Samurott) thanks to his poor special bulk and, ironically, typing. I'd rather have Misdreavus, who tanks shit, or Samurott, who destroys shit, as my anti-lead thanks. While Mawile boasts SR over these two, putting you Taunter, SRer and likely physical wall straight into enemy fire is sure to lose you momentum turn 1.
I'm not too sure if Mawile is as good a Sun setter as you make it out to be: It gives up Leftovers for Heat Rock, meaning he cannot take (m)any hits at all. He has Taunt over the far bulkier and reliable Regirock, but again he needs Speed EVs to not fail at using it right, again detracting from his longevity. Mawile also doesn't seem to provide that much outside of Taunt, SR and Sunny Day, which Probopass and Bastiodon also get. While the two don't utilize Taunt even remotely well, Bastiodon can phaze targets or retaliate with Metal Burst/Counter while Probopass can T-Wave stuff or provide a slow Volt Switch to bring in your Fire-type / Chlorophyll sweepers safely.
Mawile is decent in a Baton Passing chain, but again those stats become very apparent if you haven't passed enough defense boosts to Mawile to take hits or speed boosts to Taunt stuff.
In order for Mawile to hit hard, he has to give up literally all of his bulk, Intimidate included, to function. +2 SF LO Iron Head can hit pretty darn hard, but Mawile has to rely on his Steel typing alone to set up, and even then he can lose more than 50% because of his very poor uninvested base 50 HP. Given that Steel is generally a poor offensive typing, Mawile will likely be Sucker Punching his way through the majority of opponents that outspeed him and very likely KO him. As it stands, we don't really see the appeal of an offensive Steel type in NU, or any meta for that matter (Excadrill, Lucario and Aggron are offensive threats because of their other STAB), but add to the fact that he's slow and frail just seals it for me.
Ultimately, Mawile has alot of pros, but can do nothing about his biggest con. 50/85/55 bulk that cannot use Eviolite is pretty damn poor even with all the nifty moves he gets, while 85 base Attack is far from impressive due to his strongest attack being at 80 base power and he sits at 50 base speed, so he just cannot take advantage of all his gifts too well. Still C-Rank.
As a bulky Steel, Metang's bulk is better than his before Eviolite, with said item also nullifying Intimidate's advantage. Not to mention Mawile's bulk is still pretty vanilla with investment, and is much more vulnerable to special blows than Metang. Metang can even afford max Attack investment to hit targets while retaining bulk; Mawile cannot.Mawile may have access to recovery and Taunt, but Metang's raw bulk and ability to hit semi-hard usually matters more in the long run and Mawile's disappointing speed means Taunt isn't as effective on it as it should be. His stats aren't bad by NU standards as you say (lol Watchog), but they are enough to stunt his potential.
And Mawile fares better because? You also have to keep in mind Metang has access to Zen Headbutt which demolishes Primeape and Scolipede, meaning Metang can dispatch them in a matter of seconds or finish off survivors with Bullet Punch (with health to spare!) while Mawile has to run scared of the former and Taunt to prevent the latter from setting up all over his face.
Mawile being a good anti-lead with Taunt comes off as very iffy to me to say the least. Mawile still loses to many leads (Golem and Piloswine) and even other anti-leads (Sawk, Samurott) thanks to his poor special bulk and, ironically, typing. I'd rather have Misdreavus, who tanks shit, or Samurott, who destroys shit, as my anti-lead thanks. While Mawile boasts SR over these two, putting you Taunter, SRer and likely physical wall straight into enemy fire is sure to lose you momentum turn 1.
I'm not too sure if Mawile is as good a Sun setter as you make it out to be: It gives up Leftovers for Heat Rock, meaning he cannot take (m)any hits at all. He has Taunt over the far bulkier and reliable Regirock, but again he needs Speed EVs to not fail at using it right, again detracting from his longevity. Mawile also doesn't seem to provide that much outside of Taunt, SR and Sunny Day, which Probopass and Bastiodon also get. While the two don't utilize Taunt even remotely well, Bastiodon can phaze targets or retaliate with Metal Burst/Counter while Probopass can T-Wave stuff or provide a slow Volt Switch to bring in your Fire-type / Chlorophyll sweepers safely.
Mawile is decent in a Baton Passing chain, but again those stats become very apparent if you haven't passed enough defense boosts to Mawile to take hits or speed boosts to Taunt stuff.
In order for Mawile to hit hard, he has to give up literally all of his bulk, Intimidate included, to function. +2 SF LO Iron Head can hit pretty darn hard, but Mawile has to rely on his Steel typing alone to set up, and even then he can lose more than 50% because of his very poor uninvested base 50 HP. Given that Steel is generally a poor offensive typing, Mawile will likely be Sucker Punching his way through the majority of opponents that outspeed him and very likely KO him. As it stands, we don't really see the appeal of an offensive Steel type in NU, or any meta for that matter (Excadrill, Lucario and Aggron are offensive threats because of their other STAB), but add to the fact that he's slow and frail just seals it for me.
Ultimately, Mawile has alot of pros, but can do nothing about his biggest con. 50/85/55 bulk that cannot use Eviolite is pretty damn poor even with all the nifty moves he gets, while 85 base Attack is far from impressive due to his strongest attack being at 80 base power and he sits at 50 base speed, so he just cannot take advantage of all his gifts too well. Still C-Rank.
Actually, Mawile has plenty of things to do, it's just that it is a jack of all trades, master of none. Even Mew is an example of this, as despite its unparallaled versatality and well rounded stats (unlike Mawile), it fails to reclaim its OU status because teams are looking more pokemon more dedicated to their role(s).
I consider that also a niche by itself. If you have few teamslots, but need the Pokémon in that slot to fulfill multiple roles, that Pokémon will be used. If it is the other way around, a Pokémon dedicated to that role can be used.
I can see that until someone else comes to NU that actually agrees with me that mawile is good, I'm never gonna win this.
I'm actually going to make a team with metang and mawile as a core and see which I think ends up better, I will be totally honest. I'll probably report back here in a couple of days whether I think mawile should stay C rank after seeing her with her biggest competition alongside her.
Anyway, I may as well still carry on with the debate while testing, might sway someone, so... (my comments in bold)
Punchshroom:
I'm actually going to make a team with metang and mawile as a core and see which I think ends up better, I will be totally honest. I'll probably report back here in a couple of days whether I think mawile should stay C rank after seeing her with her biggest competition alongside her.
Anyway, I may as well still carry on with the debate while testing, might sway someone, so... (my comments in bold)
Punchshroom:
Alright celever, I understand that you're trying to back up your claim that Mawile is B-Rank, however you have to understand that while Mawile has the movepool, stats and even typing to pull something off, his stats ultimately prevent him from doing his numerous jobs as well as he should. Yeah. I can see how Mawile is held back by his stats, but on the other hand mawile also has enough benefits to make him B. While I know that stats are a very important thing in pokemon (shocking right?) they were put into things that are fairly important in a physically offensive meta-game.
As a bulky Steel, Metang's bulk is better than his before Eviolite, with said item also nullifying Intimidate's advantage. Not to mention Mawile's bulk is still pretty vanilla with investment, and is much more vulnerable to special blows than Metang. Metang can even afford max Attack investment to hit targets while retaining bulk; Mawile cannot.Mawile may have access to recovery and Taunt, but Metang's raw bulk and ability to hit semi-hard usually matters more in the long run and Mawile's disappointing speed means Taunt isn't as effective on it as it should be. His stats aren't bad by NU standards as you say (lol Watchog), but they are enough to stunt his potential. Yeah, Metang is probably the better defensive steel type, however I still like intimidate letting it be a great pivot later in the battle. ALso, thanks to sheer force, it's attacks are stronger than metang's bar meteor mash.
Quote:
And metang's bullet punch 4HKOs 252Atk Light Metal Metang (Neutral) Bullet Punch vs 0HP/0Def Primeape (Neutral): 25% - 30% (69 - 82 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO. primeape, hardly impressive. :/
And Mawile fares better because? You also have to keep in mind Metang has access to Zen Headbutt which demolishes Primeape and Scolipede, meaning Metang can dispatch them in a matter of seconds or finish off survivors with Bullet Punch (with health to spare!) while Mawile has to run scared of the former and Taunt to prevent the latter from setting up all over his face.
Actually, I like running fire fang on mawile. It ends up very powerful after sheer force (it depends on the role) and those scolipede who think they can set up on my mawile better watch out. Primeape is an issue though, I suppose if it switches in it might be finished off with sucker punch, but hey, all pokemon have top-tier counters.
Mawile being a good anti-lead with Taunt comes off as very iffy to me to say the least. Mawile still loses to many leads (Golem and Piloswine) and even other anti-leads (Sawk, Samurott) thanks to his poor special bulk and, ironically, typing. I'd rather have Misdreavus, who tanks shit, or Samurott, who destroys shit, as my anti-lead thanks. While Mawile boasts SR over these two, putting you Taunter, SRer and likely physical wall straight into enemy fire is sure to lose you momentum turn 1.
Well, the main thing that mawile has as an anti-lead is his 4x super effective STAB attacks which are so strong, and also resisting explosion for custap golem. As a dedicated anti-lead, giving her an air balloon and speed investment and you can't go wrong, probably should have elaborated more. :(
I'm not too sure if Mawile is as good a Sun setter as you make it out to be: It gives up Leftovers for Heat Rock, meaning he cannot take (m)any hits at all. He has Taunt over the far bulkier and reliable Regirock, but again he needs Speed EVs to not fail at using it right, again detracting from his longevity. Mawile also doesn't seem to provide that much outside of Taunt, SR and Sunny Day, which Probopass and Bastiodon also get. While the two don't utilize Taunt even remotely well, Bastiodon can phaze targets or retaliate with Metal Burst/Counter while Probopass can T-Wave stuff or provide a slow Volt Switch to bring in your Fire-type / Chlorophyll sweepers safely.
Well, something bad about victreebel is it's frailty, but you could actually baton pass iron defenses onto it. Even set up swords dance for sawsbuck. As a steel type sun setter, I think it is probably the best (sorry probopass, you're really close).
Mawile is decent in a Baton Passing chain, but again those stats become very apparent if you haven't passed enough defense boosts to Mawile to take hits or speed boosts to Taunt stuff.
Eh, I suppose so, although I've never actually used baton pass so I'm not sure on the strategy behind it. All I know is its SD and iron defense, 2 brilliant moves for baton passing chains, followed by her great defensive typing.
In order for Mawile to hit hard, he has to give up literally all of his bulk, Intimidate included, to function. +2 SF LO Iron Head can hit pretty darn hard, but Mawile has to rely on his Steel typing alone to set up, and even then he can lose more than 50% because of his very poor uninvested base 50 HP. Given that Steel is generally a poor offensive typing, Mawile will likely be Sucker Punching his way through the majority of opponents that outspeed him and very likely KO him. As it stands, we don't really see the appeal of an offensive Steel type in NU, or any meta for that matter (Excadrill, Lucario and Aggron are offensive threats because of their other STAB), but add to the fact that he's slow and frail just seals it for me.
You have to remember that sheer force really helps iron head with STAB as well. While it may not hit a bunch of stuff super-effectively, it still hurts a LOT of the meta-game for massive damage. Although yes, sucker punch will be used most of the time. But again, his fantastic move-pool comes into play once again here!
Ultimately, Mawile has alot of pros, but can do nothing about his biggest con. 50/85/55 bulk that cannot use Eviolite is pretty damn poor even with all the nifty moves he gets, while 85 base Attack is far from impressive due to his strongest attack being at 80 base power and he sits at 50 base speed, so he just cannot take advantage of all his gifts too well. Still C-Rank.
I still believe he is worthy of B rank, despite those stats. If mawile gets an evolution in gen 6 (come on nintendo :() then she will become much more viable, however for now I am sticking with mawile for B rank thanks to his move-pool, typing and abilities. Look at Qwilfish, for instance, move-pool, typing and ability shot him into RU while his stats aren't even that great.
As a bulky Steel, Metang's bulk is better than his before Eviolite, with said item also nullifying Intimidate's advantage. Not to mention Mawile's bulk is still pretty vanilla with investment, and is much more vulnerable to special blows than Metang. Metang can even afford max Attack investment to hit targets while retaining bulk; Mawile cannot.Mawile may have access to recovery and Taunt, but Metang's raw bulk and ability to hit semi-hard usually matters more in the long run and Mawile's disappointing speed means Taunt isn't as effective on it as it should be. His stats aren't bad by NU standards as you say (lol Watchog), but they are enough to stunt his potential. Yeah, Metang is probably the better defensive steel type, however I still like intimidate letting it be a great pivot later in the battle. ALso, thanks to sheer force, it's attacks are stronger than metang's bar meteor mash.
Quote:
And metang's bullet punch 4HKOs 252Atk Light Metal Metang (Neutral) Bullet Punch vs 0HP/0Def Primeape (Neutral): 25% - 30% (69 - 82 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO. primeape, hardly impressive. :/
And Mawile fares better because? You also have to keep in mind Metang has access to Zen Headbutt which demolishes Primeape and Scolipede, meaning Metang can dispatch them in a matter of seconds or finish off survivors with Bullet Punch (with health to spare!) while Mawile has to run scared of the former and Taunt to prevent the latter from setting up all over his face.
Actually, I like running fire fang on mawile. It ends up very powerful after sheer force (it depends on the role) and those scolipede who think they can set up on my mawile better watch out. Primeape is an issue though, I suppose if it switches in it might be finished off with sucker punch, but hey, all pokemon have top-tier counters.
Mawile being a good anti-lead with Taunt comes off as very iffy to me to say the least. Mawile still loses to many leads (Golem and Piloswine) and even other anti-leads (Sawk, Samurott) thanks to his poor special bulk and, ironically, typing. I'd rather have Misdreavus, who tanks shit, or Samurott, who destroys shit, as my anti-lead thanks. While Mawile boasts SR over these two, putting you Taunter, SRer and likely physical wall straight into enemy fire is sure to lose you momentum turn 1.
Well, the main thing that mawile has as an anti-lead is his 4x super effective STAB attacks which are so strong, and also resisting explosion for custap golem. As a dedicated anti-lead, giving her an air balloon and speed investment and you can't go wrong, probably should have elaborated more. :(
I'm not too sure if Mawile is as good a Sun setter as you make it out to be: It gives up Leftovers for Heat Rock, meaning he cannot take (m)any hits at all. He has Taunt over the far bulkier and reliable Regirock, but again he needs Speed EVs to not fail at using it right, again detracting from his longevity. Mawile also doesn't seem to provide that much outside of Taunt, SR and Sunny Day, which Probopass and Bastiodon also get. While the two don't utilize Taunt even remotely well, Bastiodon can phaze targets or retaliate with Metal Burst/Counter while Probopass can T-Wave stuff or provide a slow Volt Switch to bring in your Fire-type / Chlorophyll sweepers safely.
Well, something bad about victreebel is it's frailty, but you could actually baton pass iron defenses onto it. Even set up swords dance for sawsbuck. As a steel type sun setter, I think it is probably the best (sorry probopass, you're really close).
Mawile is decent in a Baton Passing chain, but again those stats become very apparent if you haven't passed enough defense boosts to Mawile to take hits or speed boosts to Taunt stuff.
Eh, I suppose so, although I've never actually used baton pass so I'm not sure on the strategy behind it. All I know is its SD and iron defense, 2 brilliant moves for baton passing chains, followed by her great defensive typing.
In order for Mawile to hit hard, he has to give up literally all of his bulk, Intimidate included, to function. +2 SF LO Iron Head can hit pretty darn hard, but Mawile has to rely on his Steel typing alone to set up, and even then he can lose more than 50% because of his very poor uninvested base 50 HP. Given that Steel is generally a poor offensive typing, Mawile will likely be Sucker Punching his way through the majority of opponents that outspeed him and very likely KO him. As it stands, we don't really see the appeal of an offensive Steel type in NU, or any meta for that matter (Excadrill, Lucario and Aggron are offensive threats because of their other STAB), but add to the fact that he's slow and frail just seals it for me.
You have to remember that sheer force really helps iron head with STAB as well. While it may not hit a bunch of stuff super-effectively, it still hurts a LOT of the meta-game for massive damage. Although yes, sucker punch will be used most of the time. But again, his fantastic move-pool comes into play once again here!
Ultimately, Mawile has alot of pros, but can do nothing about his biggest con. 50/85/55 bulk that cannot use Eviolite is pretty damn poor even with all the nifty moves he gets, while 85 base Attack is far from impressive due to his strongest attack being at 80 base power and he sits at 50 base speed, so he just cannot take advantage of all his gifts too well. Still C-Rank.
I still believe he is worthy of B rank, despite those stats. If mawile gets an evolution in gen 6 (come on nintendo :() then she will become much more viable, however for now I am sticking with mawile for B rank thanks to his move-pool, typing and abilities. Look at Qwilfish, for instance, move-pool, typing and ability shot him into RU while his stats aren't even that great.
Skunk does run Fire Blast in some sets. If it does not, it can run Taunt, which is not as bad for Mawile (and not at all for Earthquake Metang!) but also messes up Mawile bigtime because it can't SD/do anything else (in case of Mawile's support set) anymore.
Now you make another mistake in teambuilding; adding two similar Pokémon.
It would be better to first run ten games with Mawile, then swap it out for Metang and see the differences.
Time to end this.
Having tested with Mawile myself, I like the little tyke. He can perform multiple roles (not at once :P) with adequate efficiency and can make use of the moves given to him in some shape or form. The problem is that he doesn't excel at any given task. That is the main issue we have been trying to address, and you've been trying your hardest to elaborate what Mawile can do without even considering that something else can do them better.
Swords Dance passing is done better by Ninjask (who automatically passes Speed Boosts as well), Iron Defense passing competes with Gorebyss and Scolipede who boasts offensive presence and also pass Speed Boosts, arguably the more/most important of initial boosts to be passed (even Mawile needs the Speed Boosts), now I'm even questioning Taunt Baton Passing because Mr. Mime, a staple for Baton Pass teams due to Soundproof, gets that too, lessening the need for Mawile on BP teams (you can if you want, but it's not essential).
Offensive Mawile has no bulk and relies solely on its Steel typing and unreliable Sucker Punch to survive against faster threats. There's also the issue with setting up in the first place. It's better against defensive teams, and even then stuff like Alomomola, Misdreavus and Weezing can stop you with burns or flat out walling.
The biggest comparison with defensive Mawile, as has been mentioned several times, is Metang. What Mawile offers over Metang isn't really all that much.
* In terms of tanking ability, Mawile has inferior bulk to Metang, with Eviolite essentially matching Intimidate in terms of tanking ability, and loses to every Fighting type in NU. Metang takes special hits far better than Metang (though it should only take resisted hits) and beats likely the most common Fighting-type one-on-one. The great difference in bulk renders Mawile's Leftovers advantage over Metang moot in most cases, and unlike Misdreavus it doesn't have the Speed to pull off Taunt or Pain Split as effectively to truly give him an edge over Metang.
* In terms of resistances, Mawile has a Fighting weakness, and possesses resistances to Bug, Dark and Ghost. Let's look at that. We've already elaborated on Mawile's Fighting vulnerability, so let's move on. Does Mawile take on Bugs, Darks and Ghosts better than Metang?
Bug: Mawile's matchup against Scolipede is iffy at best. Scolipede gets to set up a layer of Spikes or a Swords Dance on Mawile before Taunt. If it does the former, Scolipede can usually afford to wait around until Taunt wears off before going for it again because uninvested Mawile is laughably weak. If it is the latter, the Swords Dance has offsetted your Intimidate, meaning Scolipede gets to whack away at you with Aqua Tail or god forbid Earthquake while you struggle to outdamage the monster Bug. Metang can cut to the chase and KO Scolipede before things get awry. Pinsir just destroys Mawile one-on-one, period. Well not really, just add free Moxie boost to that last sentence. Metang can defeat Pinsir if the latter uses (or forced to use because Choice-locked) Close Combat over Earthquake. Quiver Dancers have a way around Mawile, either Sleep Powder, Baton Pass, a +1 neutral attack or SE Hidden Power, or just have Tinted Lens to completely bypass your Bug resistance, where your lesser bulk compared to Metang would show once again.
Dark: I disagree with the notion that most Darks have Fire attacks, meaning Mawile can actually fare well against them. The issue here is that Metang isn't any worse off against them than Mawile is. Skuntank loses to Metang's Earthquake or Meteor Mash while merely scratching Metang due to Eviolite. Cacturne and Shiftry are in similiar boats. Mawile has a slightly better matchup against Liepard though due to Leftovers and Taunt, but if he opts for a fixed damage attack like Super Fang or Seismic Toss over Iron Head Liepard has no qualms going for more Swaggers to hit harder with Foul Play. Metang can also get the drop on Liepard with a Swagger boosted STAB Bullet Punch to snipe Liepard the instant the latter tries to attack.
Ghost: If Metang isn't faring any worse against Darks, Mawile isn't faring any better against Ghosts. Mawile's lack of speed and comparable bulk means he loses to Misdreavus, Golurk, and even Frillish (due to Scald and its resistances to Mawile's attacks), with your only favorable matchup being Banette, but he's considered one of the worst Ghosts for a reason. Metang was never meant to take these Ghosts on, and neither is Mawile.
Mawile's advantages over Metang aren't enough to justify his use over the Iron Leg pokemon: even Intimidate is a risk due to Defiant Braviary and Primeape running about. I like Mawile, but I have accepted the fact that he cannot live up to the potential given to him by his wondrous moveset because his stats will always be a thorn by his side :( (much like Charizard + Stealth Rock). You claim to have seen flaws in other people's arguments, now it's time to take a good long look at yours. Still standing by TOP C-Rank due to his versatality alone (happy?), because Mawile doesn't seem to function as well as the B-Ranks, but is better than most C-Ranks in terms of potential roles he can fill.
Having tested with Mawile myself, I like the little tyke. He can perform multiple roles (not at once :P) with adequate efficiency and can make use of the moves given to him in some shape or form. The problem is that he doesn't excel at any given task. That is the main issue we have been trying to address, and you've been trying your hardest to elaborate what Mawile can do without even considering that something else can do them better.
Swords Dance passing is done better by Ninjask (who automatically passes Speed Boosts as well), Iron Defense passing competes with Gorebyss and Scolipede who boasts offensive presence and also pass Speed Boosts, arguably the more/most important of initial boosts to be passed (even Mawile needs the Speed Boosts), now I'm even questioning Taunt Baton Passing because Mr. Mime, a staple for Baton Pass teams due to Soundproof, gets that too, lessening the need for Mawile on BP teams (you can if you want, but it's not essential).
Offensive Mawile has no bulk and relies solely on its Steel typing and unreliable Sucker Punch to survive against faster threats. There's also the issue with setting up in the first place. It's better against defensive teams, and even then stuff like Alomomola, Misdreavus and Weezing can stop you with burns or flat out walling.
The biggest comparison with defensive Mawile, as has been mentioned several times, is Metang. What Mawile offers over Metang isn't really all that much.
* In terms of tanking ability, Mawile has inferior bulk to Metang, with Eviolite essentially matching Intimidate in terms of tanking ability, and loses to every Fighting type in NU. Metang takes special hits far better than Metang (though it should only take resisted hits) and beats likely the most common Fighting-type one-on-one. The great difference in bulk renders Mawile's Leftovers advantage over Metang moot in most cases, and unlike Misdreavus it doesn't have the Speed to pull off Taunt or Pain Split as effectively to truly give him an edge over Metang.
* In terms of resistances, Mawile has a Fighting weakness, and possesses resistances to Bug, Dark and Ghost. Let's look at that. We've already elaborated on Mawile's Fighting vulnerability, so let's move on. Does Mawile take on Bugs, Darks and Ghosts better than Metang?
Bug: Mawile's matchup against Scolipede is iffy at best. Scolipede gets to set up a layer of Spikes or a Swords Dance on Mawile before Taunt. If it does the former, Scolipede can usually afford to wait around until Taunt wears off before going for it again because uninvested Mawile is laughably weak. If it is the latter, the Swords Dance has offsetted your Intimidate, meaning Scolipede gets to whack away at you with Aqua Tail or god forbid Earthquake while you struggle to outdamage the monster Bug. Metang can cut to the chase and KO Scolipede before things get awry. Pinsir just destroys Mawile one-on-one, period. Well not really, just add free Moxie boost to that last sentence. Metang can defeat Pinsir if the latter uses (or forced to use because Choice-locked) Close Combat over Earthquake. Quiver Dancers have a way around Mawile, either Sleep Powder, Baton Pass, a +1 neutral attack or SE Hidden Power, or just have Tinted Lens to completely bypass your Bug resistance, where your lesser bulk compared to Metang would show once again.
Dark: I disagree with the notion that most Darks have Fire attacks, meaning Mawile can actually fare well against them. The issue here is that Metang isn't any worse off against them than Mawile is. Skuntank loses to Metang's Earthquake or Meteor Mash while merely scratching Metang due to Eviolite. Cacturne and Shiftry are in similiar boats. Mawile has a slightly better matchup against Liepard though due to Leftovers and Taunt, but if he opts for a fixed damage attack like Super Fang or Seismic Toss over Iron Head Liepard has no qualms going for more Swaggers to hit harder with Foul Play. Metang can also get the drop on Liepard with a Swagger boosted STAB Bullet Punch to snipe Liepard the instant the latter tries to attack.
Ghost: If Metang isn't faring any worse against Darks, Mawile isn't faring any better against Ghosts. Mawile's lack of speed and comparable bulk means he loses to Misdreavus, Golurk, and even Frillish (due to Scald and its resistances to Mawile's attacks), with your only favorable matchup being Banette, but he's considered one of the worst Ghosts for a reason. Metang was never meant to take these Ghosts on, and neither is Mawile.
Mawile's advantages over Metang aren't enough to justify his use over the Iron Leg pokemon: even Intimidate is a risk due to Defiant Braviary and Primeape running about. I like Mawile, but I have accepted the fact that he cannot live up to the potential given to him by his wondrous moveset because his stats will always be a thorn by his side :( (much like Charizard + Stealth Rock). You claim to have seen flaws in other people's arguments, now it's time to take a good long look at yours. Still standing by TOP C-Rank due to his versatality alone (happy?), because Mawile doesn't seem to function as well as the B-Ranks, but is better than most C-Ranks in terms of potential roles he can fill.
Yeah, Metang is probably the better defensive steel type, however I still like intimidate letting it be a great pivot later in the battle. ALso, thanks to sheer force, it's attacks are stronger than metang's bar meteor mash. And already we have a problem, you can't have Intimidate and Sheer Force on the same Mawile lol.
Well, the main thing that mawile has as an anti-lead is his 4x super effective STAB attacks which are so strong, and also resisting explosion for custap golem. As a dedicated anti-lead, giving her an air balloon and speed investment and you can't go wrong, probably should have elaborated more. :( There is literally nothing in the game hit 4x effective by Steel. Also, Custap Golems not only run max speed since they have no need for defense, they also have no reason to blow up on you when they can break you with EQ. Golem can pop the Air Balloon with Rock Blast and then wreck you with EQ. Intimidate Mawiles lose to Custap Golem whereas Sheer Force Mawiles lose to Golems with more HP investment since you can't knock them into Sturdy or even flinch them. This is assuming you attack them straight away, meaning you won't Taunt and result in SR getting set up (good job anti-lead!)
Well, something bad about victreebel is it's frailty, but you could actually baton pass iron defenses onto it. Even set up swords dance for sawsbuck. As a steel type sun setter, I think it is probably the best (sorry probopass, you're really close). The idea behind Baton Passing boosts to Sun sweepers would sound really terrifying if Mawile has the time and bulk to do so, setting up Sun and surviving turn 2 can already be a chore. What's interesting is that Mawile can occupy Probopass's role in bringing in sweepers safely with a dry Baton Pass, but it doesn't deal chip damage (important for any sweeper!) and Mawile again lacks the bulk to use it well.
You have to remember that sheer force really helps iron head with STAB as well. While it may not hit a bunch of stuff super-effectively, it still hurts a LOT of the meta-game for massive damage. Although yes, sucker punch will be used most of the time. But again, his fantastic move-pool comes into play once again here! You also have to remember that Mawile's poor speed, bulk and offensive STAB make him generally inferior to most other SD / Sheer Force sweepers, the fact that he has both doesn't combo well with an average 85 base Attack. Even Normal STAB is considered superior because its resists/immunities are generally easily covered. Mawile also struggles to make use of his coverage when he has SD, Iron Head and Sucker Punch as givens, and doesn't even get EQ to hit Fires, Electrics and opposing Steels.
I still believe he is worthy of B rank, despite those stats. If mawile gets an evolution in gen 6 (come on nintendo :() then she will become much more viable, however for now I am sticking with mawile for B rank thanks to his move-pool, typing and abilities. Look at Qwilfish, for instance, move-pool, typing and ability shot him into RU while his stats aren't even that great. Yeah, that's pretty much what Mawile needs really (that and more speed). Even so, there's little place for Mawile in the current meta with soooo many things competing with him for the single role he fulfills at a time.
Well, the main thing that mawile has as an anti-lead is his 4x super effective STAB attacks which are so strong, and also resisting explosion for custap golem. As a dedicated anti-lead, giving her an air balloon and speed investment and you can't go wrong, probably should have elaborated more. :( There is literally nothing in the game hit 4x effective by Steel. Also, Custap Golems not only run max speed since they have no need for defense, they also have no reason to blow up on you when they can break you with EQ. Golem can pop the Air Balloon with Rock Blast and then wreck you with EQ. Intimidate Mawiles lose to Custap Golem whereas Sheer Force Mawiles lose to Golems with more HP investment since you can't knock them into Sturdy or even flinch them. This is assuming you attack them straight away, meaning you won't Taunt and result in SR getting set up (good job anti-lead!)
Well, something bad about victreebel is it's frailty, but you could actually baton pass iron defenses onto it. Even set up swords dance for sawsbuck. As a steel type sun setter, I think it is probably the best (sorry probopass, you're really close). The idea behind Baton Passing boosts to Sun sweepers would sound really terrifying if Mawile has the time and bulk to do so, setting up Sun and surviving turn 2 can already be a chore. What's interesting is that Mawile can occupy Probopass's role in bringing in sweepers safely with a dry Baton Pass, but it doesn't deal chip damage (important for any sweeper!) and Mawile again lacks the bulk to use it well.
You have to remember that sheer force really helps iron head with STAB as well. While it may not hit a bunch of stuff super-effectively, it still hurts a LOT of the meta-game for massive damage. Although yes, sucker punch will be used most of the time. But again, his fantastic move-pool comes into play once again here! You also have to remember that Mawile's poor speed, bulk and offensive STAB make him generally inferior to most other SD / Sheer Force sweepers, the fact that he has both doesn't combo well with an average 85 base Attack. Even Normal STAB is considered superior because its resists/immunities are generally easily covered. Mawile also struggles to make use of his coverage when he has SD, Iron Head and Sucker Punch as givens, and doesn't even get EQ to hit Fires, Electrics and opposing Steels.
I still believe he is worthy of B rank, despite those stats. If mawile gets an evolution in gen 6 (come on nintendo :() then she will become much more viable, however for now I am sticking with mawile for B rank thanks to his move-pool, typing and abilities. Look at Qwilfish, for instance, move-pool, typing and ability shot him into RU while his stats aren't even that great. Yeah, that's pretty much what Mawile needs really (that and more speed). Even so, there's little place for Mawile in the current meta with soooo many things competing with him for the single role he fulfills at a time.
Since I don't want this thread to die off in the depths of the NU sub-forum, I am going to nominate Dragonair for C-Rank.
Dragonair may face competition from Fraxure and Altaria on the offensive role while also facing competition with Shelgon on the defensive role, but there are unique options that Dragonair has in its arsenal that differentiates it from the other Dragons: Shed Skin and Extremespeed. With the combination of Shed Skin, really good bulk factoring Eviolite, as well as Dragon Dance: Dragonair can be devestating for unprepared teams. Dragonair can setup on numerous walls such as Alomomola, Misdreavus, and Musharna because of its decent bulk and ability to heal itself completely with Rest. The rise of offensive teams may hinder the usefulness of Dragonair, but if Dragonair somehow gets to +2 (which it can if Pokemon like Zebstrika or Sawsbuck are on the field), it becomes a real threat to offensive teams as it is capable of sweeping solely with ExtremeSpeed and Outrage.
Though, flaws are still prominent. Even with those certain niches listed above, Fraxure is still the usual go-to offensive Dragon as it doesn't need to setup as much as Dragonair with its really good offensive prowess as well as superior coverage moves. Shelgon's monstrous bulk can check even Choice Band Sawk, while Altaria has much more versatility, and has no competition if it is being used as a Special Sweeper in NU. But do take note that Dragonair is definitely a decent choice for a Dragon type, and should not be taken lightly.
Dragonair may face competition from Fraxure and Altaria on the offensive role while also facing competition with Shelgon on the defensive role, but there are unique options that Dragonair has in its arsenal that differentiates it from the other Dragons: Shed Skin and Extremespeed. With the combination of Shed Skin, really good bulk factoring Eviolite, as well as Dragon Dance: Dragonair can be devestating for unprepared teams. Dragonair can setup on numerous walls such as Alomomola, Misdreavus, and Musharna because of its decent bulk and ability to heal itself completely with Rest. The rise of offensive teams may hinder the usefulness of Dragonair, but if Dragonair somehow gets to +2 (which it can if Pokemon like Zebstrika or Sawsbuck are on the field), it becomes a real threat to offensive teams as it is capable of sweeping solely with ExtremeSpeed and Outrage.
Though, flaws are still prominent. Even with those certain niches listed above, Fraxure is still the usual go-to offensive Dragon as it doesn't need to setup as much as Dragonair with its really good offensive prowess as well as superior coverage moves. Shelgon's monstrous bulk can check even Choice Band Sawk, while Altaria has much more versatility, and has no competition if it is being used as a Special Sweeper in NU. But do take note that Dragonair is definitely a decent choice for a Dragon type, and should not be taken lightly.
Am I the only one who doesn't get why Jynx is so good? Maybe I'm missing something, but other than stab Ice typing, lovely kiss and to a lesser extent, dry skin, I don't really get why people use Jynx. It doesn't distinguish itself from the other psychic types in the tier, it only has average speed, and is incredibly frail. Any scarfed physical attacker threatens it, and if rocks are up, it can't swtch out often. I could see it as a better Kadabra, but I don't really see it in the same tier as Musharna and Gardevoir. Maybe it's just me, but I think S-Rank is to high, but I think A-Rank for Jynx is perfectly justified.
You just stated why Jnyx is S Rank. Lovely Kiss is amazing, Dry Skin is amazing, and Ice STAB is great.
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