you could taunt with electrode or serperior but they risk getting hit hard.
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np: NU Stage 9 - Locked Out of Heaven
- Thread starter jake
- Start date
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Hmmm thanks a lot for the suggestions. Looks like I might have to just throw out a Gorebyss first thing and let him worry about it...
Yeah, I always find the best way of handling Scolipede leads is either applying early game offensive pressure or having a team that isn't very susceptible to Spikes. Of course, the latter is much more difficult (given that Spikes are going to effect all of your team that doesn't Fly/Levitate/have Magic Guard). Golem is another good way of handling it. While it will easily bring you down to Sturdy with Aqua Tail, you can a) force it to attack which will make it easy to revenge, b) 2HKO it while it sets up, or c) run Custap and always beat it. You can also lead with something fast that can OHKO non-Sash sets (Zebstrika w/ Overheat is an example).
Yes, it is a difficult Pokemon to beat without it getting up at least one layer, but that is inevitable due to its great speed. But hey, at least it isn't Deoxys-Defense. :V
Yes, it is a difficult Pokemon to beat without it getting up at least one layer, but that is inevitable due to its great speed. But hey, at least it isn't Deoxys-Defense. :V
Damp Rock and why I believe it should be Suspected/Banned
Hi all. I know that we've lately only really been discussing the drops and old Pokemon that have become better in this stage. Personally I don't think that any of the drops are broken, but that's not the point of this post. The OP of this thread clearly stated not to post about whether the new things are broken or not, but the following is a matter that has been bothering me for quite a while in this tier and certainly isn't new. Fact of the matter is, I believe that the item Damp Rock is broken.
What is Damp Rock? It's an item that extends the duration of the move Rain Dance from five to eight turns. And in my humble opinion, this is blatantly overpowered. First of all, it is nigh impossible to even avoid Rain Dance from even being set up in the first place. NU has a slew of Prankster Pokemon with access to Rain Dance (Volbeat, Illumise, Liepard, Murkrow) and simply super-fast Pokemon such as Electrode which all but guarantee that Rain Dance will be set up. The first three I listed even have access to U-Turn to make sure that the Swift Swimmer in question gets in safely. And when that happens, most teams are in for some sheer hell.
You see, enjoying the benefits of doubled Speed and increased power on one of the best types in the game for seven turns is too much. Loads of teams I see just crumble to Rain teams, and it's not as if they even take proper skill to build or to use. You straightforward setup and sweep, and it often happens that your opponent's team strategy simply flies out the window while they desperately struggle to survive the onslaught and/or stall out the turns. This in my opinion makes Damp Rock uncompetitive for one thing.
I'd also like to point out just what a similar situation we actually have on our hands as to the Drizzle + Swift Swim ban in OU. Actually, in some ways what we have is worse. Rain doesn't have to fight a weather war in NU like it does in OU, and as I pointed out earlier, getting the Rain up in the first place is easy as pie. Sure its not permanent, but you're going to have at least two Damp Rock users (at least one with Prankster, and probably one with sufficient bulk to nigh guarantee it) so there's fourteen turns of Rain already. Then you'll have Ludicolo with his own Rain Dance, so bump that up to nineteen. That is more than enough turns for a Rain team to completely steamroll the opponent.
I've seen people slap a Jynx on their team and tell me: now I'm insured against Rain. No pal, you're not. Gorebyss can cheerfully afford to run Signal Beam, Seismitoed can run Earthquake, Floatzel can run Crunch. You're insured against your standard Ludicolo sure, but Ludicolo is not a Rain team. It's often just a standalone threat on a normal balanced/offensive team, and can come out after Jynx has been eliminated by other members of a dedicated Rain team. I'm not saying that you can't beat a dedicated Rain team, heavens. But just because you can beat broken things doesn't mean that they're not broken. The point I'm trying to make is that the additional turns Damp Rock gives Rain teams just gives them too much extra time to overwhelm opposing teams with sheer brute force. The sheer damage done over the course of these turns is so great that most Rain teams don't even bother with Stealth Rock, as it simply isn't needed to push things into KO range.
My proposal isn't even unprecedented. Last Generation, Damp Rock was agreed to be suspected upon for more or less the same reasons that I've given here. My belief is that banning it would neuter Rain teams enough that they would still be perfectly viable, but not so blatantly overpowered. I'd also like to remind you all that usage does NOT affect bans. Just because you don't often see it on the ladder does not mean that it isn't able to be banned. And really, how many of you actually enjoy facing Rain teams? Does it make for a fun match in your experience? Would you not prefer to have less turns of carnage to deal with rather than simply be overcome by brute force?
edit: here's a replay against a somewhat decent player. i even switched around a lot in this battle which on paper wastes rain turns, and he also had a kangaskhan which one thinks of as a big check to rain teams. didnt do much good tbh http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/nu-16737024
Hi all. I know that we've lately only really been discussing the drops and old Pokemon that have become better in this stage. Personally I don't think that any of the drops are broken, but that's not the point of this post. The OP of this thread clearly stated not to post about whether the new things are broken or not, but the following is a matter that has been bothering me for quite a while in this tier and certainly isn't new. Fact of the matter is, I believe that the item Damp Rock is broken.
What is Damp Rock? It's an item that extends the duration of the move Rain Dance from five to eight turns. And in my humble opinion, this is blatantly overpowered. First of all, it is nigh impossible to even avoid Rain Dance from even being set up in the first place. NU has a slew of Prankster Pokemon with access to Rain Dance (Volbeat, Illumise, Liepard, Murkrow) and simply super-fast Pokemon such as Electrode which all but guarantee that Rain Dance will be set up. The first three I listed even have access to U-Turn to make sure that the Swift Swimmer in question gets in safely. And when that happens, most teams are in for some sheer hell.
You see, enjoying the benefits of doubled Speed and increased power on one of the best types in the game for seven turns is too much. Loads of teams I see just crumble to Rain teams, and it's not as if they even take proper skill to build or to use. You straightforward setup and sweep, and it often happens that your opponent's team strategy simply flies out the window while they desperately struggle to survive the onslaught and/or stall out the turns. This in my opinion makes Damp Rock uncompetitive for one thing.
I'd also like to point out just what a similar situation we actually have on our hands as to the Drizzle + Swift Swim ban in OU. Actually, in some ways what we have is worse. Rain doesn't have to fight a weather war in NU like it does in OU, and as I pointed out earlier, getting the Rain up in the first place is easy as pie. Sure its not permanent, but you're going to have at least two Damp Rock users (at least one with Prankster, and probably one with sufficient bulk to nigh guarantee it) so there's fourteen turns of Rain already. Then you'll have Ludicolo with his own Rain Dance, so bump that up to nineteen. That is more than enough turns for a Rain team to completely steamroll the opponent.
I've seen people slap a Jynx on their team and tell me: now I'm insured against Rain. No pal, you're not. Gorebyss can cheerfully afford to run Signal Beam, Seismitoed can run Earthquake, Floatzel can run Crunch. You're insured against your standard Ludicolo sure, but Ludicolo is not a Rain team. It's often just a standalone threat on a normal balanced/offensive team, and can come out after Jynx has been eliminated by other members of a dedicated Rain team. I'm not saying that you can't beat a dedicated Rain team, heavens. But just because you can beat broken things doesn't mean that they're not broken. The point I'm trying to make is that the additional turns Damp Rock gives Rain teams just gives them too much extra time to overwhelm opposing teams with sheer brute force. The sheer damage done over the course of these turns is so great that most Rain teams don't even bother with Stealth Rock, as it simply isn't needed to push things into KO range.
My proposal isn't even unprecedented. Last Generation, Damp Rock was agreed to be suspected upon for more or less the same reasons that I've given here. My belief is that banning it would neuter Rain teams enough that they would still be perfectly viable, but not so blatantly overpowered. I'd also like to remind you all that usage does NOT affect bans. Just because you don't often see it on the ladder does not mean that it isn't able to be banned. And really, how many of you actually enjoy facing Rain teams? Does it make for a fun match in your experience? Would you not prefer to have less turns of carnage to deal with rather than simply be overcome by brute force?
edit: here's a replay against a somewhat decent player. i even switched around a lot in this battle which on paper wastes rain turns, and he also had a kangaskhan which one thinks of as a big check to rain teams. didnt do much good tbh http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/nu-16737024
I think this is a very good point to bring up. Rain in and of itself is very difficult to manage in Neverused. There are times when Rain-teams can just be overwhelmed, but all in all, there is no surefire way to handle Rain. The first issue that causes this to be so is opposing Rain setters.
Your only hopes of preventing Rain from being set up (which, as Cherub already stated, is nigh impossible considering all the Prankster Pokemon who have access to Rain Dance) are by Taunting the weather starter or killing it before it gets the chance to set up. Since this is so difficult to do, you basically have to dance around to try and prevent yourself from being destroyed. This is also very difficult to do.
The next big issue with handling Rain is the fact that so many different Pokemon can take massive advantage of it. If there were only a few Pokemon who could really utilize the benefits of rain (this is very much the case for sun teams), it would be a lot easy to handle because you would know what Pokemon in particular you would need to handle.
Since Drizzle and Swift Swim are banned together, many Swift Swimmers are in NU. This means that you have to have a Pokemon that can take repeated hits from Floatzel, Gorebyss, Ludicolo, Carracosta, Mantine, Relicanth, and Seismitoad, all who get STAB and rain-boosted Water-type attacks with which they can hit your Pokemon incredibly hard. In addition to that, you also have to worry about Beartic (a more obscure threat due to being walled by Alomomola, but still a real threat) and Armaldo. That is 9 Pokemon right there that you have to hope to be able to handle when planning against a rain team, and those are all viable threats. I didn't include shit like Luvdisc and Seaking because why bother?
But in addition to these threats, you also have Hurricane users such as Articuno, Swanna, and Pelipper who all hit really hard with a base 120 STAB move that won't fail.
If this didn't cause you enough hassle, Electric-types such as Eelektross, Rotom, Electabuzz, Zebstrika, Ampharos, etc. can all hit hard with STAB Thunder--though admittedly, this is a much lesser issue most of the time.
The biggest issue to me is even if you are trying to prepare for rain teams, this is very difficult to do. Rain teams play very much like Hyper Offense in OU. If you have a dedicated special wall on your team such as Lickilicky or Munchlax, you may be hard-pressed to take multiple Rain boosted hits over and over again. Rain teams can afford to sacrifice their Ludicolo/Gorebyss/Seismitoad/whatever just to greatly weaken your special wall so that something else can come in and clean up from there. Additionally, there are still great physical attackers in the rain who can come in and smack your special wall hard with a rain-boosted Waterfall/Aqua Jet/Aqua Tail. Choice Band Adaptability Basculin couldn't give two shits less about a baby Snorlax.
Overall, I don't know for sure that rain itself is broken in NU, but I do know that it is an incredibly powerful weapon for NU players to use to their advantage. Probably more important to note is their general obscurity outside of standalone sweeper Ludicolo. Because of this, most of the time teams aren't prepared for them. If they were more popular, it would be easier to see 100% whether or not they were broken in the tier. This is what makes it hard for me in particular to decide whether or not I agree with a ban. This is also what makes it easy for me to agree that Damp Rock deserves to be suspected.
Your only hopes of preventing Rain from being set up (which, as Cherub already stated, is nigh impossible considering all the Prankster Pokemon who have access to Rain Dance) are by Taunting the weather starter or killing it before it gets the chance to set up. Since this is so difficult to do, you basically have to dance around to try and prevent yourself from being destroyed. This is also very difficult to do.
The next big issue with handling Rain is the fact that so many different Pokemon can take massive advantage of it. If there were only a few Pokemon who could really utilize the benefits of rain (this is very much the case for sun teams), it would be a lot easy to handle because you would know what Pokemon in particular you would need to handle.
Since Drizzle and Swift Swim are banned together, many Swift Swimmers are in NU. This means that you have to have a Pokemon that can take repeated hits from Floatzel, Gorebyss, Ludicolo, Carracosta, Mantine, Relicanth, and Seismitoad, all who get STAB and rain-boosted Water-type attacks with which they can hit your Pokemon incredibly hard. In addition to that, you also have to worry about Beartic (a more obscure threat due to being walled by Alomomola, but still a real threat) and Armaldo. That is 9 Pokemon right there that you have to hope to be able to handle when planning against a rain team, and those are all viable threats. I didn't include shit like Luvdisc and Seaking because why bother?
But in addition to these threats, you also have Hurricane users such as Articuno, Swanna, and Pelipper who all hit really hard with a base 120 STAB move that won't fail.
If this didn't cause you enough hassle, Electric-types such as Eelektross, Rotom, Electabuzz, Zebstrika, Ampharos, etc. can all hit hard with STAB Thunder--though admittedly, this is a much lesser issue most of the time.
The biggest issue to me is even if you are trying to prepare for rain teams, this is very difficult to do. Rain teams play very much like Hyper Offense in OU. If you have a dedicated special wall on your team such as Lickilicky or Munchlax, you may be hard-pressed to take multiple Rain boosted hits over and over again. Rain teams can afford to sacrifice their Ludicolo/Gorebyss/Seismitoad/whatever just to greatly weaken your special wall so that something else can come in and clean up from there. Additionally, there are still great physical attackers in the rain who can come in and smack your special wall hard with a rain-boosted Waterfall/Aqua Jet/Aqua Tail. Choice Band Adaptability Basculin couldn't give two shits less about a baby Snorlax.
Overall, I don't know for sure that rain itself is broken in NU, but I do know that it is an incredibly powerful weapon for NU players to use to their advantage. Probably more important to note is their general obscurity outside of standalone sweeper Ludicolo. Because of this, most of the time teams aren't prepared for them. If they were more popular, it would be easier to see 100% whether or not they were broken in the tier. This is what makes it hard for me in particular to decide whether or not I agree with a ban. This is also what makes it easy for me to agree that Damp Rock deserves to be suspected.
Cherub Agent, I will agree with you that Rain is an incredibly powerful playstyle, and it's quite difficult as to tell towards whether it is actually broken or not. However, this is the part where I will come by disagreeing with you on a few things.
Not only have you not taken into account of the current state of the metagame, but you've also failed to encounter the fact that Rain teams are quite largely based on team matchup. Forgetting these two concepts simply makes it seem as if your argument as to whether they are broken or not just seems to be based entirely on theorymon, which I feel is definitely not the way that we should go about arranging suspects and bans based entirely on this. You also seem to overestimate certain aspects among the winning conditions of this playstyle.
Regarding team matchup, while it does perform very well against certain teams, countless times have we've also realized (even my most recent RMT is a solid example) that if you carry a few checks/ways to deal with it (such as Jynx, Ludicolo, Kangaskhan, Regice, Mantine, Lickilicky, super fast Choice Scarf users and many more to name from within their specific roles), you will generally perform well against Rain with not nearly as much trouble as you are making it out to be if you're playing carefully. You also need to understand that while a lot of Pokemon on rain teams do happen to have some sort of niche for themselves, they're not particularly amazing without actual set-up, and it's not like you can always setup for free against a competent player, a concept in which you happen to be somewhat overestimating. It's not like there's a total variety of abusers either, as many of them tends to have weaknesses to some of the same things. Offensive teams can usually give them a hard time setting up while also utilizing priority or various offensive checks to prevent them from having too much trouble. Against more defensive teams, they usually have options to choose from as well between stalling turns with Protect, utiliizing Toxic Spikes (which can really cripple most rain teams despite not being that common), or again, carrying defensive checks.
In summation, while a good setup opportunity within this playstyle means that you can devastate most teams, if you can stall it out or carefully pick away the team as the battle progresses, you still can reliably win, which is why I'm not convinced of it actually being broken for the time being. Either way, I think it's a bit too early to determine whether or not it's broken (though I'm pretty confident that it isn't based on my facts). As you've previously said, while usage isn't necessarily indicative of whether something is particularly overpowered or not, you also have to step back and think whether if it's just such an underused strategy to the point that people just aren't bothered to prepare for it as much as you think they should or not. Theorymoning is interesting, but it doesn't necessarily undermine actual data all the time. Also, just because you don't enjoy playing a particular playstyle (think about how many people would absolutely hate playing against a Full Baton Pass team, for example), doesn't necessarily mean that we should arbitrarily go out of our way among banning it officially, as that's completely missing the point among the philosophy of banning things.
Not only have you not taken into account of the current state of the metagame, but you've also failed to encounter the fact that Rain teams are quite largely based on team matchup. Forgetting these two concepts simply makes it seem as if your argument as to whether they are broken or not just seems to be based entirely on theorymon, which I feel is definitely not the way that we should go about arranging suspects and bans based entirely on this. You also seem to overestimate certain aspects among the winning conditions of this playstyle.
Regarding team matchup, while it does perform very well against certain teams, countless times have we've also realized (even my most recent RMT is a solid example) that if you carry a few checks/ways to deal with it (such as Jynx, Ludicolo, Kangaskhan, Regice, Mantine, Lickilicky, super fast Choice Scarf users and many more to name from within their specific roles), you will generally perform well against Rain with not nearly as much trouble as you are making it out to be if you're playing carefully. You also need to understand that while a lot of Pokemon on rain teams do happen to have some sort of niche for themselves, they're not particularly amazing without actual set-up, and it's not like you can always setup for free against a competent player, a concept in which you happen to be somewhat overestimating. It's not like there's a total variety of abusers either, as many of them tends to have weaknesses to some of the same things. Offensive teams can usually give them a hard time setting up while also utilizing priority or various offensive checks to prevent them from having too much trouble. Against more defensive teams, they usually have options to choose from as well between stalling turns with Protect, utiliizing Toxic Spikes (which can really cripple most rain teams despite not being that common), or again, carrying defensive checks.
In summation, while a good setup opportunity within this playstyle means that you can devastate most teams, if you can stall it out or carefully pick away the team as the battle progresses, you still can reliably win, which is why I'm not convinced of it actually being broken for the time being. Either way, I think it's a bit too early to determine whether or not it's broken (though I'm pretty confident that it isn't based on my facts). As you've previously said, while usage isn't necessarily indicative of whether something is particularly overpowered or not, you also have to step back and think whether if it's just such an underused strategy to the point that people just aren't bothered to prepare for it as much as you think they should or not. Theorymoning is interesting, but it doesn't necessarily undermine actual data all the time. Also, just because you don't enjoy playing a particular playstyle (think about how many people would absolutely hate playing against a Full Baton Pass team, for example), doesn't necessarily mean that we should arbitrarily go out of our way among banning it officially, as that's completely missing the point among the philosophy of banning things.
I agree Rain is very annoying to play against, but this issue has come up before. As a playstyle it's incredibly efficient at crushing offense because a lot of the time it's just a question of who goes first and the Rain gives them a nice +2 to Speed. But the one drawback is since the Rain boost is equivalent to only +1 it tends to struggle against very bulky teams where the +2 to Speed didn't matter anyway.
No denying it gets players very easy wins a lot of the time but I don't think anyone who's used a bog standard Rain team has found it consistent enough to reliably get them a grip on the top of the ladder or tourney wins. Most successful Rain teams have to be adapted and in the end just look like a standard offense team anyway with a couple of Rain Dance 'mons. The move Rain Dance can be thought of as an Agility with a STAB bonus. And that's a good way to think about it imo. Is a +2 Speed and +1 Atk/SpAtk too overpowering? I think that's a much easier question to answer.
A good idea now would be for everyone to go and make a rain team!
No denying it gets players very easy wins a lot of the time but I don't think anyone who's used a bog standard Rain team has found it consistent enough to reliably get them a grip on the top of the ladder or tourney wins. Most successful Rain teams have to be adapted and in the end just look like a standard offense team anyway with a couple of Rain Dance 'mons. The move Rain Dance can be thought of as an Agility with a STAB bonus. And that's a good way to think about it imo. Is a +2 Speed and +1 Atk/SpAtk too overpowering? I think that's a much easier question to answer.
A good idea now would be for everyone to go and make a rain team!
The issue that I find with your argument is that many of your checks to rain don't really check it well at all. I'll include some calcs to help reinforce my argument and my reasoning in hide boxes.
Common rain sweepers vs. Lickilicky:
Jynx:
Ludicolo:
Kangaskhan:
Regice:
Yes, fast Choice Scarf users such as the Rotom forms are nice answers to rain teams, but they can't do everything on their own. Specially Defensive Seismitoad doesn't really even mind either Rotom form all that much.
252SpAtk Rotom (Neutral) Blizzard in Rain vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Seismitoad (+SpDef): 35% - 42% (147 - 174 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
Blizzard, the strongest move either Rotom form carries, is a 3HKO assuming it hits every time. If it does decide to lock itself into Blizzard, you can just switch into one of your rain sweepers who won't mind taking the hit as much. This makes the Rotom forms, once again, checks to rain teams.
Basically what I am trying to get at is that there is no real way to counter rain teams. With a decent amount of shaky checks, they are not unbeatable, but being unbeatable is not what makes something ban-worthy. It's the sheer power or utility behind a Pokemon that makes in ban-worthy in my opinion, and do rain teams have both of these? In my opinion, they do. And it's not like if this were to be suspected (or banned for that matter) that rain would suddenly become an unplayable style. It would just tone down the power that these types of teams have which may or may not be appropriate.
As for the variety of abusers, I feel like I outlined that plenty clearly enough in my previous post, though maybe you disagree with me that all of the Pokemon that I listed are very powerful. There are loads of Pokemon who can utilize the rain in some way or another, and I think that is a major point here. It's not like rain teams are limited to Ludicolo and Gorebyss.
Your Toxic Spikes argument is noteworthy. This is a pretty good way to handle rain teams, and it shouldn't be ignored. The obvious issue is that Toxic Spikes are much less common due to the significance of Scolipede in the tier. I know you mentioned that they aren't very common, but I think that point is pretty significant.
In the end, I am still not convinced either way. I think though, considering how difficult it is to play around (as I have pretty clearly pointed out in my opinion), that it is at least suspect worthy. No, I don't think we should get ban happy and just ban rain as a playstyle because what the hell would that accomplish? But you have to admit that if the most specially defensive Pokemon in the tier cannot afford to switch into rain-boosted Surfs, we may have a problem on our hands here.
Anyways, if it were that simple, no, it would not be broken or suspect-worthy. But it's not that simple to me.
Common rain sweepers vs. Lickilicky:
252SpAtk Life Orb Gorebyss (+SAtk) Hydro Pump in Rain vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Lickilicky (+SpDef): 67% - 79% (286 - 336 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252SpAtk Life Orb Gorebyss (+SAtk) Surf in Rain vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Lickilicky (+SpDef): 53% - 62% (225 - 267 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252SpAtk Life Orb Ludicolo (+SAtk) Surf in Rain vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Lickilicky (+SpDef): 45% - 53% (192 - 228 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 2% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.
(Guaranteed 2HKO w/ Rocks, Hydro is guaranteed 2HKO)
It can't really handle rain teams if it can't even switch into attacks. Very similarly, Munchlax takes hits better, but once it is forced to Rest due to no other recovery, you can bring in a physical threat such as Floatzel or Carracosta and then threaten it out. Because of BW sleep mechanics, it won't be able to do much for the rest of the match.
252SpAtk Life Orb Gorebyss (+SAtk) Surf in Rain vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Lickilicky (+SpDef): 53% - 62% (225 - 267 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252SpAtk Life Orb Ludicolo (+SAtk) Surf in Rain vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Lickilicky (+SpDef): 45% - 53% (192 - 228 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 2% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.
(Guaranteed 2HKO w/ Rocks, Hydro is guaranteed 2HKO)
It can't really handle rain teams if it can't even switch into attacks. Very similarly, Munchlax takes hits better, but once it is forced to Rest due to no other recovery, you can bring in a physical threat such as Floatzel or Carracosta and then threaten it out. Because of BW sleep mechanics, it won't be able to do much for the rest of the match.
Jynx:
This sums up my feelings very nicely:
Defensive Ludicolo is far less impressive outside of checking rain teams, and thus, against other teams, it tends to be rather underwhelming. Electric-types can Volt Switch out, the rise of U-Turn isn't friendly towards it, Charizard can Air Slash or Fire Blast, etc. Yes, it handles rain fairly well. But it doesn't really do much else. That said, rain is overcentralizing if people have to run defensive Ludicolo for it. Otherwise, a lot of common rain threats demolish it (Seismitoad outspeeds and hits hard with Sludge Wave, Hurricane users can easily live a hit then OHKO, offensive Mantine can live a hit then hit back hard with Air Slash, Signal Beam Gorebyss hits Jynx hard as well as Ludicolo, etc).
Kangaskhan:
This is one of the better Rain checks. It is still, however, hardly without its flaws. Kangaskhan does not want to switch into any rain sweeper, which means you either have to live a hit with something slower with VoltTurn or come in on a revenge kill, use Fake Out, then switch out to something else to take a heavy hit if the rain is still up. It's a good check, but it isn't amazing.
Regice:
252SpAtk Life Orb Heavy Metal Ludicolo (+SAtk) Surf in Rain vs 248HP/8SpDef Leftovers Regice (Neutral): 38% - 45% (139 - 165 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
Can't switch in with Rocks up. Gorebyss hits it even harder due to better Special Attack.
252SpAtk Life Orb Mantine (+SAtk) Surf in Rain vs 248HP/8SpDef Leftovers Regice (Neutral): 35% - 42% (130 - 153 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
Even Mantine has a chance of 2HKO-ing it after Rocks. Once again, not the best answer check if it can't even switch in.
Can't switch in with Rocks up. Gorebyss hits it even harder due to better Special Attack.
252SpAtk Life Orb Mantine (+SAtk) Surf in Rain vs 248HP/8SpDef Leftovers Regice (Neutral): 35% - 42% (130 - 153 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
Even Mantine has a chance of 2HKO-ing it after Rocks. Once again, not the best answer check if it can't even switch in.
Yes, fast Choice Scarf users such as the Rotom forms are nice answers to rain teams, but they can't do everything on their own. Specially Defensive Seismitoad doesn't really even mind either Rotom form all that much.
252SpAtk Rotom (Neutral) Blizzard in Rain vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Seismitoad (+SpDef): 35% - 42% (147 - 174 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
Blizzard, the strongest move either Rotom form carries, is a 3HKO assuming it hits every time. If it does decide to lock itself into Blizzard, you can just switch into one of your rain sweepers who won't mind taking the hit as much. This makes the Rotom forms, once again, checks to rain teams.
Basically what I am trying to get at is that there is no real way to counter rain teams. With a decent amount of shaky checks, they are not unbeatable, but being unbeatable is not what makes something ban-worthy. It's the sheer power or utility behind a Pokemon that makes in ban-worthy in my opinion, and do rain teams have both of these? In my opinion, they do. And it's not like if this were to be suspected (or banned for that matter) that rain would suddenly become an unplayable style. It would just tone down the power that these types of teams have which may or may not be appropriate.
As for the variety of abusers, I feel like I outlined that plenty clearly enough in my previous post, though maybe you disagree with me that all of the Pokemon that I listed are very powerful. There are loads of Pokemon who can utilize the rain in some way or another, and I think that is a major point here. It's not like rain teams are limited to Ludicolo and Gorebyss.
Your Toxic Spikes argument is noteworthy. This is a pretty good way to handle rain teams, and it shouldn't be ignored. The obvious issue is that Toxic Spikes are much less common due to the significance of Scolipede in the tier. I know you mentioned that they aren't very common, but I think that point is pretty significant.
In the end, I am still not convinced either way. I think though, considering how difficult it is to play around (as I have pretty clearly pointed out in my opinion), that it is at least suspect worthy. No, I don't think we should get ban happy and just ban rain as a playstyle because what the hell would that accomplish? But you have to admit that if the most specially defensive Pokemon in the tier cannot afford to switch into rain-boosted Surfs, we may have a problem on our hands here.
I agree that it is a much simpler question to answer because I don't think it's an accurate comparison. The issue is that 1.) more Pokemon than those who have Swift Swim can use the rain to their advantage and 2.) this +1 Atk/SpAtk and +2 Speed can be applied to more than just one Pokemon at the same time. It's not like you're using Shift Gear with your Floatzel because as soon as your Floatzel dies, if the rain is still falling, you can bring up another rain sweeper to continue hitting for massive damage. In addition to this, you aren't using your Floatzel/Gorebyss/whatever rain sweeper to set up most of the time. If you were, they would be much more manageable because you could just use something to hit it hard enough to either kill it or bring it into a range where it is much less of an issue. Instead, you have bulky Pokemon like Seismitoad or Prankster Pokemon like Volbeat or Liepard who can set it up with priority. And even if you do kill that Pokemon after the rain has been set, you haven't eliminated the problem.
Anyways, if it were that simple, no, it would not be broken or suspect-worthy. But it's not that simple to me.
I'm going to make a rain team and ladder for a while before I pass judgment either way.
However, I'll just point out the Rotom-F/Seismitoad calc that Treecko37 just posted is a little bit strange. That calc is accurate for the Bulky Toad set, but the standard bulky offense sets tend to have 100 or less HP and little to no SpD investment. That's still a 2HKO. If rocks are already up, that doesn't make a lick of difference, but otherwise that means that Rotom-F can revenge kill, since Hydro Pump will never OHKO with Life Orb or less boosting the attack. (Though with 160 or more speed EVs, Seismitoad outspeeds Scarf Rotom-F anyway and it doesn't matter again.)
Rain looks kinda fun, it should be interesting to use more than just Ludicolo for it.
However, I'll just point out the Rotom-F/Seismitoad calc that Treecko37 just posted is a little bit strange. That calc is accurate for the Bulky Toad set, but the standard bulky offense sets tend to have 100 or less HP and little to no SpD investment. That's still a 2HKO. If rocks are already up, that doesn't make a lick of difference, but otherwise that means that Rotom-F can revenge kill, since Hydro Pump will never OHKO with Life Orb or less boosting the attack. (Though with 160 or more speed EVs, Seismitoad outspeeds Scarf Rotom-F anyway and it doesn't matter again.)
Rain looks kinda fun, it should be interesting to use more than just Ludicolo for it.
I agree it's not a simple +2/+1 boost but sometimes simplifying the question helps to analyse the different parts of it.
Yes, the boost can persist after the user is knocked out but that also means it has a time limit. The +1 is also just to their STAB, their coverage is still at +0. From experience (and common sense I guess) a Rain team is quite easy to deal with once you survive the first round of Rain, and it's possible to spring a comeback if you have a few key Pokemon left. The question boils down to the duration of the Rain imo because I don't think a +2/+1 boost, while powerful, is necessarily broken. It's the 4 turns vs 7 turns of Rain which determines how many shots they get at you that matters. It's not out of the question to switch Jynx into Surf, then Scolipede into HP Bug and risk a 50/50 but 7 turns of successful switching is a bit much to ask for. So yeah I'm in agreement that Damp Rock could be tested because it's the duration of the effect that does it for me.
But it's no use going back and forth here, if Rain was really clearly overpowered then I hope everyone gets on the bandwagon all the way to the top of the ladder! That will be the clearest indication whether (weather ha!) it is a major problem or not.
Yes, the boost can persist after the user is knocked out but that also means it has a time limit. The +1 is also just to their STAB, their coverage is still at +0. From experience (and common sense I guess) a Rain team is quite easy to deal with once you survive the first round of Rain, and it's possible to spring a comeback if you have a few key Pokemon left. The question boils down to the duration of the Rain imo because I don't think a +2/+1 boost, while powerful, is necessarily broken. It's the 4 turns vs 7 turns of Rain which determines how many shots they get at you that matters. It's not out of the question to switch Jynx into Surf, then Scolipede into HP Bug and risk a 50/50 but 7 turns of successful switching is a bit much to ask for. So yeah I'm in agreement that Damp Rock could be tested because it's the duration of the effect that does it for me.
But it's no use going back and forth here, if Rain was really clearly overpowered then I hope everyone gets on the bandwagon all the way to the top of the ladder! That will be the clearest indication whether (weather ha!) it is a major problem or not.
To be fair, Scarf Rotom-A can only outspeed Gorebyss in Rain; the other sweepers outspeed it, especially if they run a speed boosting nature. As for Rain being broken, it's hard to say. I for one have never been able to consistently ladder with Rain because of how dependent on Rain they usually are. That said, the ease in which you can set up Rain in this tier is more than worth giving it a look at. A well built Rain team can be very devastating even in the hands of a new player.
Agent Dell is correct though when he said that team match-up affects Rain. A single check may not be enough to handle a full Rain team, but it prevents them from recklessly attacking for fear of giving something like Jynx or Gardevoir a free switch in to revenge kill. Along with the tendency of NU teams to carry at least 1 priority user, Rain doesn't have an easy time getting clean sweeps. There is also the problem of players stalling out Rain turns with Protect and constant switching; Rain teams generally only have a Stealth Rock setter, so it makes it less effective at discouraging the constant switching around that Rain teams generally have to deal with.
On the flip side, Rain can be abused far more easily than Sun. The main sweepers of Rain also get a power boost to their main STAB move, which makes it much more difficult to wall. The amazing effects it has on Hurricane and Thunder users also should be taken into account, even if they are rarer for Rain teams to carry. Water is also an excellent type in general, so stacking several of them on your team isn't as big of a problem as it may seem (it helps that many Rain abusers have useful secondary types that work well with other Rain abusers). I'm at work at the moment, so I can't look into more details about Rain; I'll edit in more thoughts later.
Agent Dell is correct though when he said that team match-up affects Rain. A single check may not be enough to handle a full Rain team, but it prevents them from recklessly attacking for fear of giving something like Jynx or Gardevoir a free switch in to revenge kill. Along with the tendency of NU teams to carry at least 1 priority user, Rain doesn't have an easy time getting clean sweeps. There is also the problem of players stalling out Rain turns with Protect and constant switching; Rain teams generally only have a Stealth Rock setter, so it makes it less effective at discouraging the constant switching around that Rain teams generally have to deal with.
On the flip side, Rain can be abused far more easily than Sun. The main sweepers of Rain also get a power boost to their main STAB move, which makes it much more difficult to wall. The amazing effects it has on Hurricane and Thunder users also should be taken into account, even if they are rarer for Rain teams to carry. Water is also an excellent type in general, so stacking several of them on your team isn't as big of a problem as it may seem (it helps that many Rain abusers have useful secondary types that work well with other Rain abusers). I'm at work at the moment, so I can't look into more details about Rain; I'll edit in more thoughts later.
Yeah, that was a bulky set, but you have to remember, rain teams are weak to other rain teams. Seismitoad can play the role of a tank that can set up the rain and take rain-boosted moves thanks to Water Absorb. Offensive Seismitoad is great, but few other Pokemon can provide the niche support that defensive Seismitoad does.
Anyways, I agree with basically everything else that was said. It is something that should be looked into more no doubt. Simply quickbanning it does nothing for anyone.
Anyways, I agree with basically everything else that was said. It is something that should be looked into more no doubt. Simply quickbanning it does nothing for anyone.
I'd be somewhat hardpressed to give Rain a suspect test when Sun is arguably the more powerful weather imo. If we're suspecting for Rain, why not include Sun (weather in general) as well? Not that I'm all up for it anyway.
Yes, Sun sweepers cannot boost their STAB and speed at the same time. However, that has become less necessary in this faster-paced metagame. What I find makes Sun teams stronger, aside from their general resistance against Toxic Spikes, is that Rain sweepers seem to be more reliant on their weather to function. Ludicolo, Mantine and Seismitoad become comparitevely slow sweepers, with Swanna being the exception, but it's STABs' effectiveness are drastically decreased when not performing under heavy rainfall. Pokemon like Sawsbuck, Rapidash and Charizard can still function as they would outside of Sun, just less destructive, because they still hit the important speed tiers. Even the slower Chlorophyll sweepers, namely Victreebel and Shiftry, have priority Sucker Punch to back themselves up; pokes like Gorebyss, and to a lesser extent Carracosta, are pretty open to attack if they rely solely on the Rain which is not pouring to fit on the team.
Electric-types looking to abuse Thunder look good on paper, but are either too slow (yeah Electric-types can be too slow in this metagame, wut) or just not powerful enough, not to mention their coverage. Even the go-to fast Electric type, Zebstrika, cannot use its now neutered Overheat to take out Grasses, so Rain teams are unable to diversify as well as Sun teams who naturally pack Grasses and Fires together so that a clean counter-sweep after the weather wears off is more difficult to pull off.
If boosted Water attacks are considered difficult to stop, then consider that boosted Fire attacks can outright ravage much of the metagame right now. I find that Rain sweepers are somewhat easier to stop because they tend to have less powerful coverage than Sun sweepers. Most Rain sweepers have Ice Beam and Hidden Power for coverage if not covered by their STABs. Most Sun sweepers have Solarbeam, boosted Hidden Power Fire or Weather Ball, and while not technically a coverage move, Chlorophyll sweepers usually have access to that devastating Sleep Powder. This is worsened by the fact that usually just one of numerous Chlorophyll sweepers carry this move on the team, so if you see multiple potential users you have to play carefully to avoid sacking your counter to the sleep move-wielding attacker.
If you think Rain (i.e Damp Rock) is considered suspect, I fail to see why you do not bring up Sun as well, not that I think either is worth suspecting.
Yes, Sun sweepers cannot boost their STAB and speed at the same time. However, that has become less necessary in this faster-paced metagame. What I find makes Sun teams stronger, aside from their general resistance against Toxic Spikes, is that Rain sweepers seem to be more reliant on their weather to function. Ludicolo, Mantine and Seismitoad become comparitevely slow sweepers, with Swanna being the exception, but it's STABs' effectiveness are drastically decreased when not performing under heavy rainfall. Pokemon like Sawsbuck, Rapidash and Charizard can still function as they would outside of Sun, just less destructive, because they still hit the important speed tiers. Even the slower Chlorophyll sweepers, namely Victreebel and Shiftry, have priority Sucker Punch to back themselves up; pokes like Gorebyss, and to a lesser extent Carracosta, are pretty open to attack if they rely solely on the Rain which is not pouring to fit on the team.
Electric-types looking to abuse Thunder look good on paper, but are either too slow (yeah Electric-types can be too slow in this metagame, wut) or just not powerful enough, not to mention their coverage. Even the go-to fast Electric type, Zebstrika, cannot use its now neutered Overheat to take out Grasses, so Rain teams are unable to diversify as well as Sun teams who naturally pack Grasses and Fires together so that a clean counter-sweep after the weather wears off is more difficult to pull off.
If boosted Water attacks are considered difficult to stop, then consider that boosted Fire attacks can outright ravage much of the metagame right now. I find that Rain sweepers are somewhat easier to stop because they tend to have less powerful coverage than Sun sweepers. Most Rain sweepers have Ice Beam and Hidden Power for coverage if not covered by their STABs. Most Sun sweepers have Solarbeam, boosted Hidden Power Fire or Weather Ball, and while not technically a coverage move, Chlorophyll sweepers usually have access to that devastating Sleep Powder. This is worsened by the fact that usually just one of numerous Chlorophyll sweepers carry this move on the team, so if you see multiple potential users you have to play carefully to avoid sacking your counter to the sleep move-wielding attacker.
If Rain sweepers boast the coverage to beat their counters, the Sun sweepers probably have it even better. Rapidash has Low Kick for Regirock, Carracosta and Munchlax; Charizard has utterly insane power by his side plus moves like Focus Blast, Solarbeam and Dragon Pulse; Victreebel has that Weather Ball which ravages even max HP Regice after a Growth; Sawsbuck and Shiftry have Nature Power to shake up Fire-types....and let's not forget Sleep Powder. If Rain has given you trouble, I'm surprised Sun hasn't gotten to you first.
If you think Rain (i.e Damp Rock) is considered suspect, I fail to see why you do not bring up Sun as well, not that I think either is worth suspecting.
I have a feeling that the problem is partly the fact that offensive Gardevoir is now too slow, even when running maximum speed, and close to useless, and Gardy was a great check against weather teams, often even sweeping abusing the opponents own weather. Expert Belt/Life Orb 4-Attacks Gardevoir could completely wreck weather teams on its own, especially Rain teams provided Ludicolo is slightly weakened, but Sun teams as well if it had a faster Chlorophyll partner.
But since the drops, with Jynx, Scolipede and to a lesser extent Primeape everywhere, which all reduce the viability of weather-counters, I have much more trouble handling opposing weather because you simply have less slots to use (and defensive Gardevoir does not pack enough power to deal with Rain, while offensive Gardevoir is outclassed against everything bar full weather teams which are still too rare)
There is only one weather counter left (one which - as long it stays alive - counters all forms of weather, I mean) - and no one bothers with it (for obvious reasons).
But since the drops, with Jynx, Scolipede and to a lesser extent Primeape everywhere, which all reduce the viability of weather-counters, I have much more trouble handling opposing weather because you simply have less slots to use (and defensive Gardevoir does not pack enough power to deal with Rain, while offensive Gardevoir is outclassed against everything bar full weather teams which are still too rare)
There is only one weather counter left (one which - as long it stays alive - counters all forms of weather, I mean) - and no one bothers with it (for obvious reasons).
Castform @ Joker Squad
Ability: Forecast
Timid Nature
EV's: 252 HP, 4 SpA, 252 Spe
IV's: 0 Atk
- Sunny Day
- Rain Dance
- Hail
- Weather Ball
Ability: Forecast
Timid Nature
EV's: 252 HP, 4 SpA, 252 Spe
IV's: 0 Atk
- Sunny Day
- Rain Dance
- Hail
- Weather Ball
Punchshroom brought up a very good point here, as like he stated, Sun offense is clearly evidenced as the more powerful playstyle in the metagame simply based upon his facts alone. This also makes me wonder why Rain is being looked as ban-worthy, among other things.
Anyways, to address towards the claims regarding the "coverage" argument against checks like Jynx or Ludicolo, that honestly doesn't mean as much as you guys are making it out to be. The main reason why is that they generally lack the inability to outright OHKO, which means such an invaluable difference here regardless of whether or not they are the most reliable checks. If you can't outright OHKO your Rain check (specially my comments regarding Treecko37's arguments, for example), then that still technically means that this particular check can still pose as much of a threat to at least somewhat disrupt the opposing team, which is about all that's really necessary if you're once again, playing smart and carefully. This led to Treecko37 greatly underestimating some of the ways of dealing with Rain, as follows a great indicator here:
As much as I'd like to add more, it only feels as I would be repeating myself in relation to the previous post, so feel free to keep the discussion abroad.
Oh, the irony when you think about it. Hi there, Jynx.
Anyways, to address towards the claims regarding the "coverage" argument against checks like Jynx or Ludicolo, that honestly doesn't mean as much as you guys are making it out to be. The main reason why is that they generally lack the inability to outright OHKO, which means such an invaluable difference here regardless of whether or not they are the most reliable checks. If you can't outright OHKO your Rain check (specially my comments regarding Treecko37's arguments, for example), then that still technically means that this particular check can still pose as much of a threat to at least somewhat disrupt the opposing team, which is about all that's really necessary if you're once again, playing smart and carefully. This led to Treecko37 greatly underestimating some of the ways of dealing with Rain, as follows a great indicator here:
Treecko37, not only is the statement that I've underlined and bolded here has proven to be pretty much just completely wrong (when have you actually seen that set to even proclaim of that being true? Even your/Cherub Agent's Jynx argument is a bit stretching), there was also barely (if at all) any mention regarding Ludicolo's standard offensive set, and how that is one of Rain's biggest threats as well. Might I add that especially with Rain up, there's really aren't that many answers that you can outright address to towards dealing with Offensive Ludicolo as most threats can be 2HKO'd at worst by the combination of Stealth Rock and STAB attacks, the fact that Ludicolo can outspeed every Swift Swimmer in the tier besides Timid Seismitoed, Golduck, or Floatzel (neither of which can OHKO for that matter and Ludicolo has to have a lot of prior damage, which is easier said than done when Ludicolo can usually spam Giga Drain), and the fact that it's probably the single best deterrent upon the winning condition. Otherwise, a lot of your statements against that set really seems like random minor details or just irrelevant claims among other things (lol U-turn, Charizard) within the topic of dedicated Rain teams.
As much as I'd like to add more, it only feels as I would be repeating myself in relation to the previous post, so feel free to keep the discussion abroad.
Oh, the irony when you think about it. Hi there, Jynx.
Look it's fine if your personal opinion is that Heat Rock is harder to deal with than Damp Rock but Damp Rock is the one that I brought up and I'd appreciate it if we could stay on the subject. The fact is that these items are not the same and that Swift Swimmers gain two boosts in one go as opposed to Fire-types and Chlorophyll abusers. Also someone argued that coverage is not boosted... that's a really weak argument considering the fact that Water moves first off have amazing neutral coverage on their own and under the Rain just power through resists anyway.
Agent Dell the Pokemon that you listed can beat a Rain Pokemon one on one, sure. But a Rain team is precisely that, a team. There are multiple Pokemon on it and being such offensively based teams, they do not mind saccing Pokemon after Pokemon if it's going to clear a path for another Swift Swimmer to clean up. None of these Pokemon have instant recovery, and will all be worn down. The only insanely fast Choice Scarf user is Zebstrika at the moment, and it can't even hit Seismitoad or Ludicolo super effectively with its STAB. I've laddered a fair bit, yesterday and today and have reached a Glicko2 of 1970 without any trouble at all as of this post. None whatsoever. You talk about team matchup, and to be honest I'm gonna have to completely throw that argument back. In every single battle I've played (and no it wasn't just "ladder noobs", I beat shnen and starships quite easily with my Rain team (no offense to you guys at all, I'm just using you as evidence as to how Damp Rock made such a difference in our games) and I have literally forced my opponent out of any kind of strategy they may have had for their team into dealing with mine, due to the massive amount of pressure I put on their teams. Team matchup has always been in my favor in the games I've played.
I really want to stress the point though that last time Damp Rock was voted upon in NU there weren't the Prankster users Volbeat and Liepard, and they have made a world of difference in my team. I am literally 99% guaranteed to get Rain Dance up in every single one of my matches twice by usig these two Pokemon, and then just go to town. The fact that Volbeat and Liepard both can use U-Turn to get their teammates in safely is just icing on top. Also I'm getting the impression from some of these posts that people think I want to suspect Rain, which i must stress is not the point: I want to suspect Damp Rock. Those extra turns are simply too much for opposing teams to handle.
It'd also be cool if people I know use Rain extensively like The Quasar could post their opinions on this matter, as it would be good to get some feedback from veterans of the strategy.
Agent Dell the Pokemon that you listed can beat a Rain Pokemon one on one, sure. But a Rain team is precisely that, a team. There are multiple Pokemon on it and being such offensively based teams, they do not mind saccing Pokemon after Pokemon if it's going to clear a path for another Swift Swimmer to clean up. None of these Pokemon have instant recovery, and will all be worn down. The only insanely fast Choice Scarf user is Zebstrika at the moment, and it can't even hit Seismitoad or Ludicolo super effectively with its STAB. I've laddered a fair bit, yesterday and today and have reached a Glicko2 of 1970 without any trouble at all as of this post. None whatsoever. You talk about team matchup, and to be honest I'm gonna have to completely throw that argument back. In every single battle I've played (and no it wasn't just "ladder noobs", I beat shnen and starships quite easily with my Rain team (no offense to you guys at all, I'm just using you as evidence as to how Damp Rock made such a difference in our games) and I have literally forced my opponent out of any kind of strategy they may have had for their team into dealing with mine, due to the massive amount of pressure I put on their teams. Team matchup has always been in my favor in the games I've played.
I really want to stress the point though that last time Damp Rock was voted upon in NU there weren't the Prankster users Volbeat and Liepard, and they have made a world of difference in my team. I am literally 99% guaranteed to get Rain Dance up in every single one of my matches twice by usig these two Pokemon, and then just go to town. The fact that Volbeat and Liepard both can use U-Turn to get their teammates in safely is just icing on top. Also I'm getting the impression from some of these posts that people think I want to suspect Rain, which i must stress is not the point: I want to suspect Damp Rock. Those extra turns are simply too much for opposing teams to handle.
It'd also be cool if people I know use Rain extensively like The Quasar could post their opinions on this matter, as it would be good to get some feedback from veterans of the strategy.
im just going to say that this may sound good on paper but does not eactly come through in practise. for one, neutral LO rapidash does 38.46 - 45.6% to standard regirock (or the one on honko's calc) which is a 3hko. regirock can switch in and ohko with rock slide. and it does 38.4 - 46.02% to 0/0 carracosta, so same argument basically. got nothing bad to say about charizard, except of course that he has that massive SR weakness that no Rain sweeper possesses. victreebel is an incredibly threatening sweeper no doubt, but only really notable once it gets a growth up, which is hard due to its frailty. and if youre running sleep powder youre giving up on either growth or another attacking move. sawsbuck is in the same boat, it's only really threatening after a swords dance (ok really threatening) but has issues with setting up in the first place, especially since it has to give up on sap sipper. rain sweepers dont have these problems since they can just start a surf/whydro pump/waterfall spree from the get go, and don't need to waste a second time setting up. their typing and bulk is also often superior to sun sweepers.
I think this is a good point. The relative obscurity of a playstyle can make people to forget it and when teambuilding just forget to have some counters to that strategy.Cherub Agent said:
Everyone was so busy trying out the new drops, and new sets on old treats. Don't know why Cherub decided to try this out, but it surely took us with our pants down. Just like what happened to SubBulk-up Braviary, until we make it to common knowleage it was a rare sight on the ladder, used only by the most prominent players.
So my point is, putting this on the light will make new players to use rain intesively, netting easy victories over more experienced players since as of now no one carry hard counters to rain. But take this into account:
This means, when two rain teams battle againts each other, the winner will be the most skilled one. That statemeant take down the whole "DAMP ROCK is OP" argument.Treecko37 said:
My position on this topic is, now that rain is not popular (as of April Usage Stats, Rain Offensive is used by the around 4% of NU players) is really difficult to deal with it. But when rain became popular it will handle itself preventing "easy wins" over more skilled players.
Sure will be more useful, but like every popular strategie, soon or later people will come with counter strategies, for example:Sidfrid said:
Punchshroom post
This issue will fix itself.
(also, this guide may be a little outdated but is incredible useful: bw nu sun
This is incorrect, Volbeat and Illumise had Prankster the last time we suspected the rocks.
Anyway, I'm pretty curious at what has changed in NU since this post Cherub. Liepard got Prankster, and we gained and lost a bunch of Pokemon, but surprisingly we only lost two Pokemon that could have been considered "weather abusers" (Magmortar and Emboar). We also didn't gain any Pokemon that helped/hindered weather.
Honestly the same argument last time applies here. Sure, Rain and Sun teams are powerful vs unprepared teams. The last time they were suspected, people went into a frenzy about them because of Charizard, Ludicolo, and Sawsbuck dropping into NU. Once people started preparing for full weather teams, they realized just how simple they were to beat with proper preparation. After that, they fell into obscurity again for a long time.
I'm glad you found a way to exploit a flaw in the metagame Cherub, but until I see more weather teams being slapped together and immediately dominating the ladder, I'm going to chalk your success up to a well-built team wielded by a good player vs. a lot of unprepared players. I'm not trying to devalue your accomplishment or say that Rain (and Sun) isn't a legitimate threat, but I don't see really any difference between now and the last time the hype train rolled into town.
Oh I completely forgot that I was against a Damp Rock ban a year ago. Nevertheless I'll try and respond. However, I have to say that in that post, I was fairly off. A large part of it was me talking about Huntail and Gorebyss in the Rain, and how they're not really threats since without a Shell Smash their low base Speed makes them easy to revenge kill when they only have the SwSw boost, and how it was incredibly difficult for them to get off a Shell Smash at all in the first place. And I completely take back what I said about Ludicolo having disappointing power, that was just ignorant, and not true at all. Surf alone OHKOs practically every somewhat offensive Pokemon in this meta, to the point where I don't need to resort to Hydro Pump >_>
I think I was off because I was posting about something that I hadn't even really used extensively. In my current experience with Rain Dance, I've found Gorebyss to be a surprisingly poor choice on my team, and have now replaced it, mainly due to the reasons i said above. My current Rain team is this: Volbeat / Liepard / Seismitoed / Ludicolo /SubBU Braviary / Scarf Jynx. It's not perfect by any means and with nearly every match I'm finding a little something that I can tweak on my team. Gorebyss was replaced by Braviary because I found that defensive teams (I really had trouble when facing a Munchlax) could screw me over quite easily, and I was barely using Gorebyss anyway. Braviary can damn near 6-0 a defensive team by itself, and the things that it is troubled by can be swept away by my Swift Swimmers. But I've really noticed that the extra turns Damp Rock gives me on my Pranksters simply gives Ludicolo and Seimsitoad (these two really outshine other Swift Swimmers and are really all I need on my team) the time to totally demolish opposing teams. But I'll playtest more and hopefully bring a more solid argument to the table later, because I feel like I'm just repeating the same things over and over again :(
I think I was off because I was posting about something that I hadn't even really used extensively. In my current experience with Rain Dance, I've found Gorebyss to be a surprisingly poor choice on my team, and have now replaced it, mainly due to the reasons i said above. My current Rain team is this: Volbeat / Liepard / Seismitoed / Ludicolo /SubBU Braviary / Scarf Jynx. It's not perfect by any means and with nearly every match I'm finding a little something that I can tweak on my team. Gorebyss was replaced by Braviary because I found that defensive teams (I really had trouble when facing a Munchlax) could screw me over quite easily, and I was barely using Gorebyss anyway. Braviary can damn near 6-0 a defensive team by itself, and the things that it is troubled by can be swept away by my Swift Swimmers. But I've really noticed that the extra turns Damp Rock gives me on my Pranksters simply gives Ludicolo and Seimsitoad (these two really outshine other Swift Swimmers and are really all I need on my team) the time to totally demolish opposing teams. But I'll playtest more and hopefully bring a more solid argument to the table later, because I feel like I'm just repeating the same things over and over again :(
I know it was posted as a mere joke in the IRC, but the Scarfipede that we used for the second make-a-team-via-IRC I ran is actually pretty great against certain offensive Pokemon. (Not Scarf Zebstrika.)
252 Atk Scolipede Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ludicolo: 408-482 (136.45 - 161.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ludicolo: 408-482 (112.08 - 132.41%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Other than that, most swift swim users take 50-75%, but that's not bad for revenge killing if the enemy has some prior damage. It's not as effective as Zebstrika against many rain teams, but it can beat Ludicolo.
Ok, I have kinda skimmed the debate so far, and my opinion didn't change. Damp rock is not broken in NU, it is strong, yes, but far from broken.
You said that rain cannot be countered, but mantine and seismitoad, both who abuse rain themselves, combat it very well. Gardevoir can trace a swift swim and hurt the opponent's team massively, whereas regice can just wall most of the team bar the setter (sometimes) and floatzel. It really is far from broken.
As said earlier, a flaw in the meta-game, but it really is not unbeatable or uncountable. Anyway, damp rock itself is definitely not broken. If anything, swift swim should be banned. With 5 turns in rain, you can't sweep all of the opponent's team with a sweeper, which is made to sweep all or most of your opponents team. Against unprepared team it wrecks them; maybe teams should be prepared for it. While it may not be fun fighting against rain teams, it is also not broken, and the 8 turns is the thing that is least broken out of it.
Without damp rock you would nerf rain simply too much. It would become totally unviable, except maybe on ludi, who only got worse lately.
I have probably worded this post really badly.
You said that rain cannot be countered, but mantine and seismitoad, both who abuse rain themselves, combat it very well. Gardevoir can trace a swift swim and hurt the opponent's team massively, whereas regice can just wall most of the team bar the setter (sometimes) and floatzel. It really is far from broken.
As said earlier, a flaw in the meta-game, but it really is not unbeatable or uncountable. Anyway, damp rock itself is definitely not broken. If anything, swift swim should be banned. With 5 turns in rain, you can't sweep all of the opponent's team with a sweeper, which is made to sweep all or most of your opponents team. Against unprepared team it wrecks them; maybe teams should be prepared for it. While it may not be fun fighting against rain teams, it is also not broken, and the 8 turns is the thing that is least broken out of it.
Without damp rock you would nerf rain simply too much. It would become totally unviable, except maybe on ludi, who only got worse lately.
I have probably worded this post really badly.
It's good to move away from the mythical 'Rain Team' that destroys everything arguments and actually establish that a team of just Swift Swim Pokemon is actually quite bad. Rain is about a bunch of moderately bulky and quite powerful Pokemon with a +2/+1 condition. It struggles against defensive teams, which is why Cherub has had to adapt his team and include a stall-breaker.
I remember CBB (at least I think it was) had a successful Rain team back in the day, and I spent quite a while trying to make the perfect Rain team. We got similar results: 3 Rain Dance sweepers, and 3 regular Pokemon that could reliably stall-break, set SR and offer revenge support. It was difficult to cater for everything, and while I could get quite high on the ladder with it, it was never consistent enough to be no1. It was never my best (or shall I say most consistent) team. Maybe I failed in trying to build perfect Rain team, but I did try very hard.
Having said that I'm happy to suspect Damp Rock, the 7 turns of Rain as a field condition is very strong and very tough to deal with. It's a funny kind of playstyle, you either slice through teams like butter or you come unstuck against the one guy who decides to carry a SpDef Ludicolo (or SpDef Mantine lol or some poo poo like that...). I think it does unbalance the ladder a bit because of how easily and quickly it is to steamroll most offensive threats using Rain. I guess what I'm saying is it rewards team matchup more than battling skill most of the time, and that bothers me somewhat.
I remember CBB (at least I think it was) had a successful Rain team back in the day, and I spent quite a while trying to make the perfect Rain team. We got similar results: 3 Rain Dance sweepers, and 3 regular Pokemon that could reliably stall-break, set SR and offer revenge support. It was difficult to cater for everything, and while I could get quite high on the ladder with it, it was never consistent enough to be no1. It was never my best (or shall I say most consistent) team. Maybe I failed in trying to build perfect Rain team, but I did try very hard.
Having said that I'm happy to suspect Damp Rock, the 7 turns of Rain as a field condition is very strong and very tough to deal with. It's a funny kind of playstyle, you either slice through teams like butter or you come unstuck against the one guy who decides to carry a SpDef Ludicolo (or SpDef Mantine lol or some poo poo like that...). I think it does unbalance the ladder a bit because of how easily and quickly it is to steamroll most offensive threats using Rain. I guess what I'm saying is it rewards team matchup more than battling skill most of the time, and that bothers me somewhat.
252SpAtk Life Orb Seismitoad (+SAtk) Earth Power vs 252HP/0SpDef Alomomola (Neutral): 55% - 65% (295 - 348 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
As an fyi.
Anyway I finally sat down and made myself a rain team for this meta so I'm not just spouting theorymon in response to Cherub. I'm nowhere near done, but I've noticed that the battles I'm winning easily with my team are vs teams that are completely and totally unprepared for rain teams. A well built rain team is of course designed to break through the various threats to the team, but again, you can't just slap together a team of volbeat, liepard, and 4 rain sweepers and call it a day.
Once I'm tired of laddering with this team I'll post more of the specifics, but the team I'm using is pretty similar to Cherub's in that I use Volbeat + Ludicolo + Seismitoad. Volbeat is extremely useful in both getting free turns to set up and crippling random speedy threats with priority T-Wave. The two sweepers actually work really well together, since STAB Hydro Pump in the rain hurts basically anything that isn't named Jynx, and their secondary coverage is also quite handy. I also like how they're both bulky enough (especially Seismitoed) to handle random priority attacks and KO back.
As an fyi.
Anyway I finally sat down and made myself a rain team for this meta so I'm not just spouting theorymon in response to Cherub. I'm nowhere near done, but I've noticed that the battles I'm winning easily with my team are vs teams that are completely and totally unprepared for rain teams. A well built rain team is of course designed to break through the various threats to the team, but again, you can't just slap together a team of volbeat, liepard, and 4 rain sweepers and call it a day.
Once I'm tired of laddering with this team I'll post more of the specifics, but the team I'm using is pretty similar to Cherub's in that I use Volbeat + Ludicolo + Seismitoad. Volbeat is extremely useful in both getting free turns to set up and crippling random speedy threats with priority T-Wave. The two sweepers actually work really well together, since STAB Hydro Pump in the rain hurts basically anything that isn't named Jynx, and their secondary coverage is also quite handy. I also like how they're both bulky enough (especially Seismitoed) to handle random priority attacks and KO back.
OK so I'm now 29-4 with my Rain team, and two losses were because of an internet DC (technically 51-6 on my alt, but those other battles were with a different team) and most of my victories have run like clockwork, as in really, just completely overwhelming the opponent. A massive amount of players have no good response to my team, and I think I really need to stress just how much their team's strategy flies out the window when I force them to play by my rules. I don't really know how to best put it into words, but without a strategy to follow my opponent's team essentially becomes six detatched Pokemon. My computer is now broken so I won't be laddering anymore until it gets fixed, so I thought I'd share the team so you can see how it works
I've limited myself to two Swift Swimmers because I simply don't need any more. Ludicolo and Seismitoad are the best anyway due to their absolutely incredible typing for Rain sweepers. I took Liepard out for Rotom-S, since I like having another Pokemon to smash bulk Water-types (Dickmola) and counter stuff like Braviary. The EVs are really just to make sure that Thunder OHKOs SubBU Braviary after SR and that Rotom outspeeds it, the rest go into bulk. The utility of Volt Switch is cute, but I honestly prefer HPW since Rotom-S can totally abuse the Rain itself, and I don't like switching it out much when its got a SR weakness and no recovery. Thunder is an awesome move to spam anyway. Seismtoad has EQ over EP since with no Attack investment and a LO, EQ does a minimum of 100% to Jynx, which is nice. Stealth Rock is on it because I already have four Rain Dancers, another isn?t needed. Rain Dance is always up for the entire duration of the match anyway. Uhh what else of note... Psyshock is on Jynx to smash Mantine after SR which could otherwise be a really annoying Pokemont o face, but thanks Psyshock its never been a problem as Jynx walls it, and Primeape can OHKO under Rain too against Modest variants. Alomomola is of course a dick (but it's always a dick) but between Rotom-S, Ludicolo and Jynx's Lovely Kiss I've got it covered. Considering switching Lovely Kiss out for something like Psychic though to hit MoMo harder, but its utility is really great. Nasty Plot is also something I've been considering to really crush defensive teams. I had trouble with Munchlax too, but Primape obviously KOs it, and Jynx's Psyshock does a number. Still really annoying though, I'm glad its not used much. Volbeat is also an absolute star, the three non attacking moves are absolutely beautiful with priority, and U-Turn is surprisingly strong too. Thunder Wave also is such an amazing utility tool, I've scrippled loads of Scarfmons such as Charizard with it that would otherwise outspeed Ludicolo. I removed Braviary from my team because defensive teams were so rare that it really didnt't fit with the really offensive nature of this team, and 70% of the time it was really only used to take a hit so that other team members could come in for free.
Typing all this out really makes me want to use Nasty Plot on Jynx over Focus Blast now... if you want to try the team out I highly recommend it, as it seems as though it would solve a LOT of my problems.
Volbeat (M) @ Damp Rock
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Spd / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Encore
- Rain Dance
- U-turn
Rotom-Fan @ Damp Rock
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 40 Spd / 248 HP / 112 SAtk / 108 Def
Modest Nature
- Thunder
- Air Slash
- Hidden Power [Water]
- Rain Dance
Seismitoad @ Life Orb
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Rash Nature
- Surf
- Stealth Rock
- Sludge Wave
- Earthquake
Jynx (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Dry Skin
EVs: 248 SAtk / 252 Spd / 8 HP
Timid Nature
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Psyshock
- Lovely Kiss
Primeape @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Rain Dance
- Stone Edge
Ludicolo @ Life Orb
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Giga Drain
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
- Rain Dance
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Spd / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Encore
- Rain Dance
- U-turn
Rotom-Fan @ Damp Rock
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 40 Spd / 248 HP / 112 SAtk / 108 Def
Modest Nature
- Thunder
- Air Slash
- Hidden Power [Water]
- Rain Dance
Seismitoad @ Life Orb
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Rash Nature
- Surf
- Stealth Rock
- Sludge Wave
- Earthquake
Jynx (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Dry Skin
EVs: 248 SAtk / 252 Spd / 8 HP
Timid Nature
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Psyshock
- Lovely Kiss
Primeape @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Rain Dance
- Stone Edge
Ludicolo @ Life Orb
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Giga Drain
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
- Rain Dance
I've limited myself to two Swift Swimmers because I simply don't need any more. Ludicolo and Seismitoad are the best anyway due to their absolutely incredible typing for Rain sweepers. I took Liepard out for Rotom-S, since I like having another Pokemon to smash bulk Water-types (Dickmola) and counter stuff like Braviary. The EVs are really just to make sure that Thunder OHKOs SubBU Braviary after SR and that Rotom outspeeds it, the rest go into bulk. The utility of Volt Switch is cute, but I honestly prefer HPW since Rotom-S can totally abuse the Rain itself, and I don't like switching it out much when its got a SR weakness and no recovery. Thunder is an awesome move to spam anyway. Seismtoad has EQ over EP since with no Attack investment and a LO, EQ does a minimum of 100% to Jynx, which is nice. Stealth Rock is on it because I already have four Rain Dancers, another isn?t needed. Rain Dance is always up for the entire duration of the match anyway. Uhh what else of note... Psyshock is on Jynx to smash Mantine after SR which could otherwise be a really annoying Pokemont o face, but thanks Psyshock its never been a problem as Jynx walls it, and Primeape can OHKO under Rain too against Modest variants. Alomomola is of course a dick (but it's always a dick) but between Rotom-S, Ludicolo and Jynx's Lovely Kiss I've got it covered. Considering switching Lovely Kiss out for something like Psychic though to hit MoMo harder, but its utility is really great. Nasty Plot is also something I've been considering to really crush defensive teams. I had trouble with Munchlax too, but Primape obviously KOs it, and Jynx's Psyshock does a number. Still really annoying though, I'm glad its not used much. Volbeat is also an absolute star, the three non attacking moves are absolutely beautiful with priority, and U-Turn is surprisingly strong too. Thunder Wave also is such an amazing utility tool, I've scrippled loads of Scarfmons such as Charizard with it that would otherwise outspeed Ludicolo. I removed Braviary from my team because defensive teams were so rare that it really didnt't fit with the really offensive nature of this team, and 70% of the time it was really only used to take a hit so that other team members could come in for free.
Typing all this out really makes me want to use Nasty Plot on Jynx over Focus Blast now... if you want to try the team out I highly recommend it, as it seems as though it would solve a LOT of my problems.
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